Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AB + Oneworld: The Future Of FRA?  
User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

With the entry of Air Berlin into Oneworld effective March 20th, Lufthansa Group now has an alliance competitor in its very own country. The immediate increase in flights to Berlin-Brandenburg (BER/EDDB) upon opening on June 3, 2012, is a clear response to potential marketshare.

Here are some statistics:

Frankfurt/Main (FRA/EDDF)

Oneworld carriers: 11 (all members)
Star Alliance carriers: 24
Lufthansa destinations: 150+
Air Berlin destinations: 18


Berlin-Brandenburg (BER/EBBD) (From June 3, 2012)

Oneworld carriers: 5
Star Alliance carriers: 11
Lufthansa destinations: 38 (30 new, 8 being transferred from TXL before June 15th)
Air Berlin destinations: 70


Lufthansa Growth

With 30 new destinations being added in one single day, it's a clear attempt at getting their foot in the door before Air Berlin shuts it. Lufthansa Group tends to be excellent in terms of fleet and route organization, so with 30 new routes being added in a single day, their analysts have seen the potential of this airport beyond what most would normally assume. This is a brand-new airport with fresh slots and plenty of room for international expansion if Lufthansa ever wanted to further intimidate Air Berlin. If Air Berlin sees both financial and route growth, we may very well see a new major German carrier get a stronghold.


Connections & Oneworld

Connecting in BER will very likely be more convenient and streamlined than current services at FRA. My personal experience at FRA was a rather confusing system - many strange twists and turns, but the signs got me where I needed to go in the end. However, EU customs for connecting to long-haul flights was abnormally long, and I nearly missed my LH438 connection to DFW.

The alliance systems in both airports is clear - Star Alliance holds a dominating spot in FRA. Lufthansa, as the head of Star Alliance (as well as main offices in Frankfurt), assures the locale as a key part of growth and competition against foreign carriers. It's a fortress hub without question. If Oneworld carriers send one daily flight (or transfer all FRA flights) to BER for connecting purposes, Air Berlin and alliance partners may have a snatch on a market dominated by Lufthansa. This may also help fend off the assault on BER with 30 new flights (if the numbers play in Oneworld's favor).

Of course, switching all FRA ops to BER would be controversial in theory, but the real dealbreaker lies in route revenues as well as the number of connecting passengers flying into FRA on Oneworld carriers. While I cannot immediately get my hands on this information, I personally assume that the numbers are rather low. FRA, up until today, had little to no Oneworld connection possibilities that involve going eastward (besides Malev, which ceased all operations last month).


High-Speed Railway Competition

With Air Berlin, one can now connect from LAN, American, Cathay Pacific, or S7 for a short hop to from FRA to BER or TXL. However, this would be rather inconvenient for such a short hop for some. The transportation possibilities at FRA may endanger the Air Berlin connections.....from the ground. Rail transport at FRA contains the InterCity Express infrastructure and would allow passengers a more comfortable (although longer) journey than another whole flying hassle on a very long trip.

Direct flights into BER may eliminate this potential competition. If one wanted to get to Frankfurt instead, the new railway station at BER would still allow the InterCity Express & EuroCity train connections. If Oneworld carriers still have both BER and FRA flights, it would not be a problem either. The new S-Bahn would also allow immediate transfers into Berlin's downtown metro system from the same train station in the airport as the high-speed network.


The Transfer Gamble

The proposition of switching all Oneworld ops from FRA to BER (besides AB, HG, IB, BA, AY, and RJ) would almost certainly be a risky one (in my opinion). Some long-haul DUS flights on Air Berlin may still be left behind and would still require high-speed rail for easy connecting (and still utilizing these features would not be a problem with the new facilities).

A particular gamble would be AA's decision to do this. They've already cut both JFK-FRA and ORD-FRA before they hit bankruptcy and DFW-FRA is all that remains. For even the slightest city change in favor of a few connecting passengers per flight could be financially disastrous (if the DFW-FRA route is fragile already, but I have no information regarding this). LAN also appears to be doing fine with SCL-MAD-FRA, and once again I do not have information on route stability regarding that. CX is also a mystery regarding the matter.


Perhaps my fellow aviators can enlighten all of us on the profitability and stability of international Oneworld routes into FRA. The point of the discussion is to mainly question the advantages and disadvantages of attempting to create an alliance hub out of BER with Air Berlin to rival Lufthansa and FRA. The transfer may also not only eliminate the threat of Lufthansa, but allow them to further look into expanding long-haul horizons on lost Oneworld routes from FRA instead of focusing on BER long-haul.

What do you guys think?


"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10118 times:

That's a very big market for carriers like CX to effectively leave for LH. The existing flights to FRA are very much centered around local traffic (given the absence of connections available to OW carriers), so I think they'd be silly to hand LH these passengers.

The only carrier I can see moving operations any time soon is QF. Their flights seem to be driven by tourists with limited business passengers, most of whom are going further than FRA. AB would work well for QF (but they've stated that there are no plans as yet). QF has also been moving flights to OW hubs methodically over the past little while.

Perhaps CX could open up a daily flight to BER in addition to the FRA flight, to focus mostly on connecting pax (and they'd grab the entire local market at the same time).

AA is a hard one -- I'm not entirely sure what markets their flight cater for. I'd imagine mainly local traffic, given that it's far more efficient for them to route connections through LHR than for carriers coming in from the East. I don't see them doing something this risky at the present time.

The growth of AB and BER really depends a lot on the growth of Berlin as a city as well. AB needs to work hard to maintain a strong presence in the face of LH -- I'd guess that OW partners are waiting to see what happens before they commit themselves.


User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
Perhaps CX could open up a daily flight to BER in addition to the FRA flight, to focus mostly on connecting pax (and they'd grab the entire local market at the same time).

It would also be good considering that a whole Oneworld east-bound connection spot would be possible.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
The growth of AB and BER really depends a lot on the growth of Berlin as a city as well. AB needs to work hard to maintain a strong presence in the face of LH -- I'd guess that OW partners are waiting to see what happens before they commit themselves.

Yes, but Berlin is also the largest city in Germany. The fact Lufthansa is starting 30 new flights all at once means that it may potentially skyrocket as the new central European hub - and they want a piece of it.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10067 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Independence76 (Thread starter):
Air Berlin destinations: 70

Does this include the AB routes being moved from MUC?

Or do we have an arbitrary day where LH is doing a 'step function' growth of 30 flights and AB will move flights over a period of time?

Either way, I see AB benefiting as once all Berlin flights are consolidated to a single airport, the connection opportunities will improve RASM (needed for AB, sadly) and allow for quicker growth due to that higher RASM.

Quoting Independence76 (Thread starter):
so with 30 new routes being added in a single day, their analysts have seen the potential of this airport beyond what most would normally assume.

That is a tremendous amount of equipment being shifted. Where is it coming from?

Lightsaber

Ps (late edit), I wonder what Etihad and AirBerlin will do with their 'strategic partnership.' I see BER being more of a feed for AUH than vice versa. Opinions?

[Edited 2012-03-20 21:03:05]


I've posted how many times?!?
User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10031 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Does this include the AB routes being moved from MUC?

Or do we have an arbitrary day where LH is doing a 'step function' growth of 30 flights and AB will move flights over a period of time?

No, the MUC flights are there to stay.

From what it sounds like, all airlines operating in and out of TXL and BER between June 2nd and 3rd will have their planes ferried to BER (much like Kai Tak to Chek Lap Kok (correct me if I'm wrong)). This may sound silly but I'm not entirely familiar with moving planes from one airport to another in close proximity, so forgive me.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
That is a tremendous amount of equipment being shifted. Where is it coming from?

Nothing is for certain on that - Lufthansa has claimed (and confirmed) 30 new destinations starting immediately effective June 3rd from BER. Nobody knows exactly where the planes are coming from as of yet.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9982 times:

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 4):

From what it sounds like, all airlines operating in and out of TXL and BER between June 2nd and 3rd will have their planes ferried to BER (much like Kai Tak to Chek Lap Kok (correct me if I'm wrong)). This may sound silly but I'm not entirely familiar with moving planes from one airport to another in close proximity, so forgive me.

From old HKG to new HKG the planes were ferried by flight, not road or ships. I would imagine it be the same with TXL to BER.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
That's a very big market for carriers like CX to effectively leave for LH. The existing flights to FRA are very much centered around local traffic (given the absence of connections available to OW carriers), so I think they'd be silly to hand LH these passengers.

Thats right. I can't see an immediate shift from FRA to BER. More likely shifting around the frequency so they both co-exist. I can very well see the stronger of the OW carriers who do not serve TXL such as JL, LA, CX (and later AA) launching BER.


User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9951 times:

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 5):
From old HKG to new HKG the planes were ferried by flight, not road or ships. I would imagine it be the same with TXL to BER.

Certainly not by road or ships.

The main issue I see is noise and nighttime flying laws. Hong Kong didn't have those obstacles in the middle of the night and neither does Doha (for New Doha International Airport, opening 12/12/2012) or Quito (New Quito International Airport, proposed to be operational by October 2012).

The plan to get planes from TXL to BER would certainly be a challenging production.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 743 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9851 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):

AA is a hard one -- I'm not entirely sure what markets their flight cater for. I'd imagine mainly local traffic, given that it's far more efficient for them to route connections through LHR than for carriers coming in from the East. I don't see them doing something this risky at the present time.


With the demise of Malev I think AA to BER is a given.

With AB covering JFK, MIA, and LAX it's perfectly reasonable for AA to start DFW-BER and ORD-BER. Both locations have enough feed to funnel into AB's network at BER.

Given AA's conservative strategy I suspect they'll probably only start one route at a time. If they do, I suspect DFW might be first. Although one could argue that DFW has FRA for connections so ORD-BER would allow for a more complete network with less people having to fly South to go back North.


User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9807 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7):
With AB covering JFK, MIA, and LAX it's perfectly reasonable for AA to start DFW-BER and ORD-BER. Both locations have enough feed to funnel into AB's network at BER.

Given AA's conservative strategy I suspect they'll probably only start one route at a time. If they do, I suspect DFW might be first. Although one could argue that DFW has FRA for connections so ORD-BER would allow for a more complete network with less people having to fly South to go back North.

Their recent strategy in bankruptcy has apparently been increasing strength in major hubs, so I see DFW-BER as the most likely possibility if JFK-BER isn't announced first.

Malev's demise makes this likely. Otherwise, I would never expect any such expansion.


If other Oneworld carriers decide to jump into BER internationally, I would only see it as successful if it was marketing properly on a large scale.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
The only carrier I can see moving operations any time soon is QF. Their flights seem to be driven by tourists with limited business passengers, most of whom are going further than FRA. AB would work well for QF (but they've stated that there are no plans as yet). QF has also been moving flights to OW hubs methodically over the past little while.

I don't see this happening at all. The FRA flight is profitable, and loads are good. Not sure how many of these passengers are O&D or transferring though. What I see is a flight being added to BER. SIN-BER is easily within range of an A332. The only issue with that is that there aren't many A332s reaching SIN on QF, but it could do an equipment swap in SIN rotating it occasionally through ADL or PER.

Is there a need to fly to BER daily in the first instance, or is a 3pw flight acceptable? If the latter, extending QF81 (SYD-ADL-SIN) to BER seems completely reasonable.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7):
Both locations have enough feed to funnel into AB's network at BER.

Surely the connections are just as easily satisfied via LHR and BA though?


User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9702 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
Surely the connections are just as easily satisfied via LHR and BA though?

Yes, but some passengers may have a connection east of LHR. To go westward then eastward only wastes time.

I can imagine why carriers coming into BER from the west wouldn't make sense, but Asian and Australian partners into BER would be a better fit for connections.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1220 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9592 times:

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 11):
Yes, but some passengers may have a connection east of LHR. To go westward then eastward only wastes time.

I can imagine why carriers coming into BER from the west wouldn't make sense, but Asian and Australian partners into BER would be a better fit for connections.

Air Berlin feeds eastwards longhaul to Etihad. Its new big owner. Not to QF or CX.
Air Berlin wont offer much to the other airlines in terms of connectivity or feed. look at their routemap...
A few gaps for any airline not transporting tourists to the med...
Air Berlin doesnt serve markets such as LHR, CDG or for that sake any Paris airport, AMS, BRU, Warsaw, Prague etc etc. Its great if a person is connecting to Palma Mallorca or Kefalonia however neither CX, BA or QF have built their business around such passengers.

BER Im sure will be a great airport eventually and berlin as a city will one day perhaps claim its old power and influence. but we are far from there just yet.
AB is one of the airlines bleeding the most in Europe. Its a hybrid between a lowcost and full service, an airline whose network is a mix of leisure destinations combined with a few business markets.

I might sounds negative, I am not. I like Air Berlin I hope they can become a viable competitor for LH in Germany. But at the moment they are miles from even trying to compete and the notion that AB is some sort of big bridgehead in Europe for oneworld is just a million miles from reality.
Air Berlin in oneworld wont at the moment be more substantial than malev was or when Royal Jordanian entered.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8756 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9502 times:

For QF there is not only OW connex traffic at FRA, they interline, also with LH, The departing flight gets transit pax from MAN, BHX (at least while BA/BE was still operating those routes) and LHR, they interline with German Rail and FRA is, contrary to BER, centrally located.

The night bans are about equal, although i would not bet on it, the likelyness that QF stays at FRA is high. they rather give up Germany altogether, yielding to the Gulf carriers.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineQF340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9501 times:

Air Berlin in oneworld wont at the moment be more substantial than malev was or when Royal Jordanian entered.
---> Millwallsean, i dont know if you can compare Air Berlin and Malev / Royal Jordanian... the size is quite different and the number of ports flown to as well, no???


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
I don't see this happening at all. The FRA flight is profitable, and loads are good. Not sure how many of these passengers are O&D or transferring though.

That's what most people said about EZE and SCL though. I do see your logic, but if it's true that this is just a backpacker express (as many would have us believe), then BER serves the market far better than FRA ever will. I don't see QF adding destinations overall though.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 11):
Yes, but some passengers may have a connection east of LHR. To go westward then eastward only wastes time.

I can imagine why carriers coming into BER from the west wouldn't make sense, but Asian and Australian partners into BER would be a better fit for connections.

This is what I'm saying though. For passengers travelling on AA from North America, LHR makes the ideal connecting hub, being on the far Western edge of the continent. For passengers travelling on CX and QF from HKG/SIN, BER makes far more sense because it's closer to the middle of the continent.

So, with that statement, why would AA open up flights to BER when their connecting traffic is better suited to LHR?


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 806 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9236 times:

Quoting Independence76 (Thread starter):
With Air Berlin, one can now connect from LAN, American, Cathay Pacific, or S7 for a short hop to from FRA to BER or TXL. However, this would be rather inconvenient for such a short hop for some. The transportation possibilities at FRA may endanger the Air Berlin connections.....from the ground. Rail transport at FRA contains the InterCity Express infrastructure and would allow passengers a more comfortable (although longer) journey than another whole flying hassle on a very long trip.

Don't overestimate the rail connection from FRA. Yes, FRA is in the center of Germany and dozens of ICEs go by every day, but the fact remains that connection to the East of Germany (and BER) is very poor via train. Flying is definitely an option, especially when train tickets are often twice as much as flights.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 4):
Nothing is for certain on that - Lufthansa has claimed (and confirmed) 30 new destinations starting immediately effective June 3rd from BER. Nobody knows exactly where the planes are coming from as of yet.

LH Italia donated a couple of A319s, adding to the frames which are transferred from TXL.

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 5):
From old HKG to new HKG the planes were ferried by flight, not road or ships. I would imagine it be the same with TXL to BER.

 
Quoting Independence76 (Reply 11):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 10):
Surely the connections are just as easily satisfied via LHR and BA though?

Yes, but some passengers may have a connection east of LHR. To go westward then eastward only wastes time.

Keep in mind also that LHR can be a pain transiting. BER has a brand-new airport which may favor transit pax. Let's hope it does.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4361 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9219 times:

FRA is the business center of central Europe. No airline that has slots here will give them up easily - unless in a survival struggle.
AB has far too few flights out of FRA to be called connectivity, so the airlines will continue to interline with LH and Deutsche Bahn.
Some OW and * airlines might try direct flight into BER with AB/LH connections. Some of these may stay, some may not pay out.

All this provided Etihad is willing to continue to pump more money into AB. If I think of the current state of AB, I would say
- it makes money the summer in Mallorca
- it does not know if it is at home in Berlin, in Düsseldorf or in Munic
- it does not know if it is a tourist airline or a network carrier
- it joined an alliance without any concept of what it is worth for
- it let the first Sheik who is willing to do so pay the bills

That is a life you can have when you are good looking and young...


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3913 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9210 times:

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 2):

Yes, but Berlin is also the largest city in Germany. The fact Lufthansa is starting 30 new flights all at once means that it may potentially skyrocket as the new central European hub - and they want a piece of

Don't get too excited. Part of it is just the rebranded Germanwings operation currently operated at SXF.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 4):
Nothing is for certain on that - Lufthansa has claimed (and confirmed) 30 new destinations starting immediately effective June 3rd from BER. Nobody knows exactly where the planes are coming from as of yet.

Lufthansa has already parked a number of A32X at SXF, some of them former Lufthansa Italia planes.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 12):
Air Berlin wont offer much to the other airlines in terms of connectivity or feed. look at their routemap... A few gaps for any airline not transporting tourists to the med...

Indeed. I fail to understand why people believe that airberlin's BER operation will be a proper hub soon. airberlin lacks the fleet, the route network and the frequencies for that - and the money to change shortcomings in all three departments. Serving a big number of destinations (many of which are leisure oriented) once or twice daily cannot sustain a large hub as you need to have feed and "de-feed" at least for late morning and early evening flights. Just think about how Lufthansa built up its MUC over years - they started with a large fleet of 50 seaters feeding the hub, then moved to 70 seaters and have now reached the 100 seat category. Do you guys really expect airberlin to do hub feed with its A320/737s - they do not have anything smaller with the exception of ten Q400s? Of course BER and AB will offer some more connections, but turning it into a oneworld hub is a wholly different story.


User currently onlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 18):
Indeed. I fail to understand why people believe that airberlin's BER operation will be a proper hub soon. airberlin lacks the fleet, the route network and the frequencies for that - and the money to change shortcomings in all three departments.

BER is a brand-new airport designed for increased capacity, long-haul operations, and future government, business, and expo models. The fact a company as reputable as Lufthansa Group is gambling big on BER from day one would tell the average analyst they LH did their homework and want a piece of the pie. BER, with the right operational practices (which AB needs to certainly improve with the low-cost/long-haul/leisure hybrid dilemma) can be an excellent money-maker for them and Star Alliance partners alike.



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3913 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9046 times:

Lufthansa is not gambling big at BER. As I said, after the transition from SXF to BER, Germanwings will only keep four domestic routes (some at the expense of Lufthansa frequencies, by the way) plus three low-frequency seasonal routes. The rest (mostly seasonal summer routes) has been shifted to Lufthansa, which pretty much operates BER as a stand-alone, low-cost operation. It has added, of course, more destinations, but I don't think you can call it spectacular. Pretty much like what they did at DUS a few years ago. It also remains to be seen if the market can absorb the additional capacity as a lot of these destinations are already served by low-cost airlines from SXF at the moment.


There is also no logic behind the argument that the opening of BER will generate spectacular growth. Has any airline been turned down in the past that wanted to serve the Berlin market? Or have passengers chosen not to fly to Berlin because of the dated, soemwhat crowded terminals at TXL and SXF? Or will the lack of high yield passengers change all of a sudden only because flights depart from BER instead of TXL? I don't think so, and I think much is over-hyped at the moment. It is just a new terminal for a market that is mainly point-to-point. Because of that, its capacity is not really designed for much growth. Lufthansa will have a decent operation there just to keep airberlin at bay - like at DUS - but that is pretty much it.

[Edited 2012-03-21 03:01:42]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8756 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Lufthansa is promoting BER this week with € 49,00 tickets on June 3rd. They will fill the seats with bargains like that.
Of course they do not leave the playgrounds to AB or others.

For business passengers, it will take longer to get tpo central berlin now total transit time might increase and depending from where people fly to BER, the train might be the better choice.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3913 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8945 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Lufthansa is promoting BER this week with € 49,00 tickets on June 3rd.

Where? I could not find a single domestic flight for 49 EUR on June, 3rd on the official website.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8756 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

came in by email about an hour ago. The price is one way of course. but with promotions, discounts for shopping, dining etc.. Just show the boarding card.


I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3913 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8908 times:

But where do you book those 49 EUR if the official LH website only shows flights north of 100 EUR one-way on June 3rd?

25 skyhigh : If the Qantas group did ever consider flying into Berlin then I think that they would send Jetstar rather than Qantas. Unlike Frankfurt with its finan
26 PanHAM : There's a link. If you get the price for the flight you eventually want is another story, but for those who are flexible....
27 MillwallSean : Because I believe Air Berlins footprint for businesstravellers is smaller than those two carriers footprint were. Look at a map. Look where Germany i
28 vfw614 : I have reeived the mail now as well. It does not say that flights are sold for 49 EUR for June 3, 2012, but simply advertises that flights from BER s
29 Quokkas : Yes and continues to be unless they give up somewhere else - guess who. But to the topic, I can't see BER becoming a serious threat to FRA unless AB
30 BommerJan : Air Berlin or Air Berlin's ascension into oneworld will not have any significant impact on the future of FRA, and neither hwill BER's opening in June.
31 Post contains images Rara : I keep reading that - but which lowcost aspects really remain for AB, except the lack of a short-haul business class? As far as I can see, the carrie
32 PanHAM : AB sells cargo through a GSE, leisure Cargo, which is their own, inherited from LTU-. leisure Cargo itself is profitable , the broker other airlines
33 Post contains images Quokkas : Thank you both for the clarification.
34 AAIL86 : I don't have any recent numbers on the profitability of DFW-FRA, but not to have AA in FRA at all would be a real disgrace. Granted, AA has contracte
35 vfw614 : Which has nothing to do with the airport, but with traffic rights. You could even argue that Emirates' "problem" demonstrates that BER is not the meg
36 PanHAM : Consiering that the European HQ US Army is moving to Wiesbaden, with about 20000 US soldiers and families living there, some 20 km from Rhein-Main, i
37 Burkhard : I really do not get what is so special with BER. Berlin was no center of aviation the last decade when they still had three airports. Closing one chan
38 Post contains images Rara : You make it sound like BER is an upgraded SXF, which just isn't the case. BER is built from scratch, it's an entirely new and presumably modern airpo
39 AAIL86 : Correct. I don't see DFW-FRA going anywhere as there's a fair amount of Texas-Germany traffic. It might amuse you to find out that there's some milit
40 PanHAM : I know that, I think the one at Ft. Bliss which has been there for decades is about to close down. Once on a visit to the Pima County Air Museum I sa
41 columba : AB has started to use Niki´s EJet on many of their own routes now. It is not that bad as you make it seem, AB flies to a lot of larger cities as wel
42 vfw614 : While Berlin is Germany's largest city, its catchment area can contribute very little, so the airport pretty much is stuck with what Berlin itself can
43 TWA85 : An ideal scenario would be a split hub strategy with BER being used by AB for German and European originating traffic (I.e. CGN-BER-JFK) and FRA being
44 VV701 : There are a some reasons which make me think it unlikely that we will see that many AA flights into BER. First AA have ATI with BA which they do not h
45 ckfred : It may depend on how much traffic AA currently moves from the U.S. to eastern Germany and Eastern Europe. If there is more traffic to these areas of
46 Post contains links columba : According to the CEO of AA who was interviewed in Berlin AA is looking at flying to Berlin in the future: Here is the interview: http://www.youtube.co
47 Independence76 : Air Berlin does have some routes to major airports, but another few are not in their network. LHR and CDG are missing - LHR obviously being the bigge
48 vfw614 : For hub feed, it does not help to serve a destination at some frequency at some point of the day. You need multiple departures that are timed to offe
49 Boeing773ER : Honestly, what AB brings to OW is the leisure destinations that BA/IB/S7/AY doesn't serve. Point blank. Honestly oneWorld saw the potential for AB in
50 SuperCaravelle : Air Berlin doesn't serve AMS, CDG and LHR, three of the four biggest airports in Europe, they have very limited operations in FRA (domestic connection
51 cyxuk : I agree. Their business is leisure PAX. When it comes down to it this is the case. As far as cargo is concerned, I think that CGN and LEJ will take t
52 thegeek : With EZE I thought there was little O&D traffic. I'm not sure that is the same at FRA. Main problem with this is that Jetstar do not feed into Au
53 Post contains links and images lightsaber : I didn't realize how much of AB's routemap was in Greece. http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Europe/Air_Berlin.shtml Time for a strategy shift... Interes
54 fco110 : I would think if this can create an environment like BRU used to be for connections (ie faster than going through LHR) that would be welcome.
55 Post contains links and images delta2ual : "The oneworld alliance on 20-Mar-2012 is welcoming airberlin as its 11th member, but the carrier's full potential will not be immediately realised. a
56 Viscount724 : LH is also promoting CHF49 (approximately EUR 41) one way fares (CHF99 return) from GVA to BER starting June 3, for bookings not later than June 2. F
57 Independence76 : That would be an interesting spectacle to watch. How long would the drive be from TXL to BER? I understand the ground equipment from Kai Tak to Chek
58 tolmachevo : The drive from TXL to BER is 35km - all of it motorway. On the night of the move this motorway (the Berlin inner ring motorway and then the Berlin-Dr
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Future Of AA Management posted Wed Feb 22 2012 07:39:41 by ckfred
The Future Of Boarding Passes? posted Mon Jan 30 2012 12:25:46 by vfw614
The Future Of MIA-Europe? posted Wed Jan 18 2012 11:38:23 by jonathanxxxx
The Future Of Star Alliance In S. America posted Wed Jan 11 2012 14:08:13 by eastern023
The Future Of STL posted Tue Dec 6 2011 16:04:13 by Thrust
The Future Of The Current SQ 777-200ER Routes posted Tue Oct 25 2011 12:54:23 by SASMD82
What Is The Status Of FRA Expansion? posted Thu Sep 8 2011 17:52:56 by YYZAMS
The Future Of YVR posted Sat Jan 8 2011 21:15:27 by sm625614
The Future Of YYZ posted Sat Jan 8 2011 09:15:50 by sm625614
The Future Of New UA First Class posted Tue Jan 4 2011 18:39:11 by 1stclass