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OTH North Bend, Or Air Service  
User currently offlineremymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

As an avid golfer and huge fan of Bandon Dunes, I find it shameful that carriers are not embracing North Bend, OR (OTH) airport. UA has cut service to 2x day on EMB-120 (no thanks), and SeaPort airliners has picked up the PDX service that used to be on Horizon. My question is why there isnt seasonal service from PHX (US), SLC (DL), LAX (AA). With Bandon's draw, certainly there are enough customers to fill demand on this route, especially with hub feed. If you have been to this airport, you know that's it's brand new, wonderful staff, and very easy in/out. It would be great to see CR9's in there from these major hubs, instead of the lone props that are not a favorite of any traveler. For now, I have to fly into EUG and drive 2.5 hours. Not fun.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

There simply isn't enough demand to warrant much service.


It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

A -900 into a town of 10000/county of 60000? To fly low yielding golfers and other leisure travellers? I'm sure its a lovely airport, but the community probably has the right amount of air service for the market. Might actually have more than the right amount.

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):

Martin let me start by saying the CR2 is the largest a/c that can be flown into OTH. This is the reason QX pulled out as the Dash-8 300's left the fleet. The Q400 is to large for the ramp there as well as a 60,000lb weight limit on some taxiways. So you'll never see the -900's there.

Unfortunately it also looks like the seasonal 3rd daily from SFO will also be a EM2 this year, which makes it very frustrating to get all the bags out. Hope when UAL see's the bill they are paying to deliver golf bags they may return the CRJ. OTH is a tough market to fly with the EM2 in the high season, but low season is a good a/c. As for SLC/PHX service, I could see DL before US in the market. DL tested the waters with ACV service, so coastal towns obviously don;t go unnoticed by DL. US however will just route pax via SFO on UA. That's what being a Star member does for you.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Many of the folks who enjoy golfing at Bandon bring their own plane along     


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2731 times:
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Quoting as739x (Reply 3):
This is the reason QX pulled out as the Dash-8 300's left the fleet.

With due respect, QX never operated the Dash-8-300's. They were either Dash-8-100's or Q200's. I do agree that the Q400 was too big for OTH and that's with the LMT tag, even though the QX management kept saying that with the efficiencies of the Q400, they could fly 30 pax out of 76 pax and still be profitable. It's obvious they were incorrect.

Here's a long shot...maybe Island Air will move some of their Dash-8-100's to the Pacific Northwest when they get their ATR-72's. There are some markets between Oregon and Washington that could warrant Dash-8-100 service.


User currently offlineAirlineBrat From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
There are some markets between Oregon and Washington that could warrant Dash-8-100 service.

You can add ACV and RDD to the list.



I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):

Your correct. I was thinking -200 but wrote -300.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
I do agree that the Q400 was too big for OTH and that's with the LMT tag,

I never knew QX ever had flown a OTH-LMT tag route, seems to be a bit out of they way, I thought QX was non-stop to PDX right before they pulled out of both OTH & LMT.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
even though the QX management kept saying that with the efficiencies of the Q400, they could fly 30 pax out of 76 pax and still be profitable. It's obvious they were incorrect.

In all fairness, fuel has gone up way more than anyone could have imagined when they stated that back when QX phased out the Q200's, it's a shame they did get rid of the Q200, several cities lost service LMT, OTH, PDT, RDD, ACV to name a few, and who knows in the future, what if they pulled out of PSC or RDM. I do hope SeaPort sticks it out with OTH, and not expect a quick profit on the route, then drop it when that doesn't materialize, But SeaPort couldn't make BFI-PDX work, nor any other Oregon route they've started. If SeaPort didn't make it work, does any carrier have a chance on these low yield routes with the cost of fuel?



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User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
I do hope SeaPort sticks it out with OTH, and not expect a quick profit on the route, then drop it when that doesn't materialize, But SeaPort couldn't make BFI-PDX work, nor any other Oregon route they've started.

SeaPort isn't in it to turn routes into money makers. SeaPort is merely in the game to use EAS subsidies to fly routes, then abandon them when the subsidies run dry. The PC-12 is just too exepnsive an aircraft (per operating hour) to make money all on its own   The ticket prices would have to be outrageously expensive for SeaPort to turn a profit on PC-12 flying, minus EAS subsidies...and that would kill the routes all on it's own.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):
UA has cut service to 2x day on EMB-120 (no thanks),

What is wrong with the EMB-120? Now I am nervous as I will be flying ORD-SFO-OTH in late August.

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):
certainly there are enough customers to fill demand on this route

I would think that if the demand was greater, UA would fly larger aircraft since they essentially own the market for the time being...


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):

There is nothing wrong with the EMB. Just that the SFO-OTH flight really stretches the legs on it. Add in 30 pax booked with a bag and golf bag and they run into bad limits, which equate to a 26 pax restriction. Last summer, after some pushing, we got a CRJ on the mid-day turn that still filled up, but also allowed us to get all the golf bags out. This summer it looks like it will be x3 daily EMB's.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
What is wrong with the EMB-120? Now I am nervous as I will be flying ORD-SFO-OTH in late August.

Oh, they feature this multi-bladed, noisy contraption (x2) that happens to make them more fuel effecient than a straight jet called a propeller  

I swear, some people should just get over the "I'm not flying anything old fashioned with a prop on it" attitude  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
I swear, some people should just get over the "I'm not flying anything old fashioned with a prop on it" attitude

It's not about old fashioned, it's about 26-30 people in a small plane flying 2 hours. It's not preferred or ideal, but if you wish to fly into OTH, then your flying a EMB-120, unless you want to fly SeaPort's Caravans from Portland, which is very similar in experience anyway.



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User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2371 times:
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Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
It's not about old fashioned, it's about 26-30 people in a small plane flying 2 hours. It's not preferred or ideal, but if you wish to fly into OTH, then your flying a EMB-120, unless you want to fly SeaPort's Caravans from Portland, which is very similar in experience anyway.

The difference is that there's a potty on the EMB...not on the Caravan. And the Caravan is much slower.


User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):
With Bandon's draw, certainly there are enough customers to fill demand on this route

The only people on the PDX flights were usually no-revs who couldn't get on the non-stop to SFO. The SFO flight does OK overall (full in summer, mixed the other 9 months).

Quoting toltommy (Reply 2):
low yielding golfers

The only guy I know who has golfed at Bandon went on a business associates Challenger. I'm pretty sure this crowd is not low-yielding.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):

Many of the folks who enjoy golfing at Bandon bring their own plane along  

You are correct sir.



One thing not mentioned here is the airport itself. The longer of the two runways is fairly short and has a big bridge on one end. When ships enter or exit the bay it adversely effects t/o performance. And the weather. Its %^&*(ing terrible. The only ILS comes in over the ocean, so in the winter (and fall... and spring) when winds kick up (40kts is not uncommon) you need to either conduct a circling maneuver or use the VOR approach (which itself has a steep decent gradient after the FAF leading to GPWS warnings and subsequent missed approaches). All of these obstacles are hard enough to deal with in a turbo-prop (OTH is one of a few captain only airports at SkyWest), but at the higher speeds of a jet OTH would probably not be feasible year round in an RJ.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):
As an avid golfer and huge fan of Bandon Dunes, I find it shameful that carriers are not embracing North Bend, OR (OTH) airport. UA has cut service to 2x day on EMB-120 (no thanks), and SeaPort airliners has picked up the PDX service that used to be on Horizon. My question is why there isnt seasonal service from PHX (US), SLC (DL), LAX (AA). With Bandon's draw, certainly there are enough customers to fill demand on this route, especially with hub feed. If you have been to this airport, you know that's it's brand new, wonderful staff, and very easy in/out. It would be great to see CR9's in there from these major hubs, instead of the lone props that are not a favorite of any traveler.

I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this whole attitude about aviation just doesn't make sense to me. Every time a small community loses service from the airlines, they scream bloody murder and beg for them to come back. Airlines do not just arbitrarily pick and choose where they fly or how much service they offer to a station. In many cases, the condition of the facilities has little bearing on their decision as well unless there are operational concerns. Airlines are in business to make money, and contrary to what you may feel, if there were enough demand to sustain a CR9 or anything bigger than and EMB-120, they would be there. Perhaps OTH is somewhat unique given its ramp limitation, but even if the facilities aren't currently sufficient, if the demand was that great, they would build accordingly. At the very least, they would send a CR2 or something, but clearly, at least according to the airlines' performance, the station doesn't support it, so the EMB-120 it is.

I, for one, happen to like props. Being a GA pilot, I find them rather exciting, but I know most people don't. That's just me.  
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
and who knows in the future, what if they pulled out of PSC or RDM.

Very unlikely IMHO.

PSC is the third largest pax airport in WA behind SEA and GEG, and they serve a decent sized metro (around 200,000 draw is what I understand) with a fair amount of business traffic. They have nonstop service to SEA, SLC, DEN, MSP, and LAS (via Allegiant). QX isn't going anywhere anytime soon there.

RDM is another hot spot with a larger draw than OTH. They have nonstop service to SLC, DEN, PDX, SEA, SFO, LAS, and IWA (again, if you count Allegiant).

I could be wrong, but I would imagine these are two of QX's hottest markets in the NW outside of the four metro areas (SEA, PDX, GEG, and BOI.) There are many other markets QX would pull out of before them such as ALW, YKM, PUW, LWS, and EAT just to name a few.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinegothamspotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting remymartin11 (Thread starter):
If you have been to this airport, you know that's it's brand new, wonderful staff, and very easy in/out.

If airlines chose destinations based on the condition of airports, LGA would be a ghost town.  


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 14):

The difference is that there's a potty on the EMB...not on the Caravan. And the Caravan is much slower

The EMB needs a potty for a 2 hour flight from SFO, the caravan doesn't for a 45 min flight from PDX. The Caravan is much slower than the Q400 or EMB, that have flown OTH-PDX in the past.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 16):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):and who knows in the future, what if they pulled out of PSC or RDM.
Very unlikely IMHO.

I was using those cities for dramatic effect, my bad for being a bit over the top with my statement. I agree with what you said, but I also didn't expect QX to drop so much in Oregon as they have, LMT, OTH, PDT, SLE.



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User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 2222 times:
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Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I was using those cities for dramatic effect, my bad for being a bit over the top with my statement. I agree with what you said, but I also didn't expect QX to drop so much in Oregon as they have, LMT, OTH, PDT, SLE.

I continue to think that QX removing the Q200's was a mistake on their part. The should have kept the Q200's and removed the CRJ-700's a long time ago.

QX alienated a lot of communities in OR and ID by dropping so many communities and placing the Q400's on AS trunk routes.

But that's all in the past now. I would have hope that a startup would consider building a small empire in the Pacific Northwest, concentrating on smaller communities and have some sort of a codeshare agreement with AS or even DL at PDX and SEA. I'm looking at an airline that would fly something like Beech 1900D's. The Pacific Northwest does have a big void left by QX these days.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 5 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 19):
I continue to think that QX removing the Q200's was a mistake on their part. The should have kept the Q200's and removed the CRJ-700's a long time ago.

QX alienated a lot of communities in OR and ID by dropping so many communities and placing the Q400's on AS trunk routes.

But that's all in the past now. I would have hope that a startup would consider building a small empire in the Pacific Northwest, concentrating on smaller communities and have some sort of a codeshare agreement with AS or even DL at PDX and SEA. I'm looking at an airline that would fly something like Beech 1900D's. The Pacific Northwest does have a big void left by QX these days.

Agree with you 100%, I wish QX didn't get rid of all their Q200's. QX built themselves here in the Northwest, with the likes or Air Oregon, that Horizon merged with, and Cascade Airways. I again, wish QX could be a bit more thoughtful in the decisions that affect the towns and cities that helped build QX, from a small airline with a few F-2'7's to what it is today.

I guess SeaPort isn't going to be the answer, but the region needs a smaller well connected airline, with efficient planes to serve these places QX has left. Funny that not much of anything has been deleted in Washington, just Oregon & Idaho.



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