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Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's  
User currently offlineredrooster3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 229 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27523 times:

Seems to be more trouble for the A380. More "serious" hairline cracks.

Qantas finds type two cracks in VH-OQA, and OQB after inspections in February and March, both have seem to been repaired. Source

Quote:


Qantas Airways has discovered "type two" cracks on two of its Airbus A380 aircraft and is now in talks with the airframer the cost implications of repairs.

The carrier found "fewer than 10" cracks on the wing-rib feet on the affected aircraft, a spokesman said.

The Australian carrier grounded another A380 - VH-OQF - last month after 36 cracks were found on the wing-rib feet.
Flightglobal Source


The only thing you should change about a woman is her last name.
76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27499 times:

What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

User currently offlineredrooster3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27463 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

The type two defects are regarded as more serious than "type one" cracks. Those hairline cracks - none longer than about 2 centimetres - were found in the wing rib feet, which attach the skins of the wings to brackets.



The only thing you should change about a woman is her last name.
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27450 times:

I think this is the same issue that was in the media last month.

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...cks-boeing-confirms-787-shims-0208


User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25871 times:

A very serious question comes to mind.....Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle? Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380? I certainly hope not, but the question comes to mind. Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31097 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25384 times:
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Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380?

If left unchecked, perhaps. But checks are in place so no, the chances they could cause a hull loss are statistically insignificant. Even if the QF bird had not suffered that engine failure, eventually that section would have been examined during a mandated inspection period and the crack found. And I do not believe the propagation was so rapid that they would have become a flight safety issue before said inspection period.

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole.

The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

The loss of an A380, even if through some unknown design failure, will not kill the program, much less Airbus.

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:23:23]

User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25340 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
A very serious question comes to mind.....Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle? Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380? I certainly hope not, but the question comes to mind. Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????

I think it is very premature to come to that conclusion. While somewhat troubling, I'm of the opinion that these are still early "teething" issues, not long term problems. I'm certain they will be repaired and the root cause corrected on future builds.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4520 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25218 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5072 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25062 times:

I love the 380, but it seems like this beast is causing lots of problems. Qantas has to be unhappy with these issues. Will QF continue operating this type if these problems keep occuring?+


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24969 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

You mean the two that ran into each other, the one the Soviets shot down or the one that was improperly repaired?
Not exactly manufacturing/design issues.

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:43:32]


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24787 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 9):
Not exactly manufacturing/design issues.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?

Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineGingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 24700 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!

I'm sure he is well aware of that. However, that isn't the big issue that would even down a manufacturer altogether.

It's about bad press, bad PR etc. Regardless of why or how, any incident involving any aircraft can potentially put a bad light on the manufacturer even if there was nothing they could do to prevent it.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23844 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380?

I think this outcome - even from total failure of multiple rib feet - would be highly unlikely. The design case which sizes these feet is likely an overpressure condition for the wing; something which would occur during fueling. Failure of the foot may not be noticed at the time of a fueling incident, but normal flight loads are unlikely to induce loads which could not find redundant load paths through intact rib feet or elsewhere in the structure.

As for discussion of this being a "design issue": I haven't seen it stated definitively, but this seems almost certainly to be a manufacturing issue. Airbus has historically used fewer shims in production than Boeing. Generally, this is viewed as a positive thing for Airbus frames, but it comes at a price - To achieve this, Airbus permits greater "pull-up" with the fasteners to close a gap than Boeing will. This seems to be an instance where the amount of fastener pull-up between the wing skin and ribs was too great. The rib feet were pre-stressed from pull-up in production, dramatically shortening the life of the parts.


User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23852 times:

Remember TWA 800? That accident was attributed to the fuel pump in an empty center fuel tank igniting fuel vapor...that was considered a design flaw and Boeing took responsibility for that one...even though it had never happened before or since.
United 747 departing Honolulu for Sydney Australia suffered the loss of the front lower deck cargo door causing 9 (I believe) deaths as passengers in the first class cabin above the door were sucked from the hole left by the torn off door. It was found that design flaws in the cargo door locking mechanism (cams) and a subsequent sort circuit that caused the locking cams to unlock, eventually resulting in the failure of the door.

Japan Airlines 123- the single worst single aircraft disaster of all time, 520 dead. Crash caused by the failure of the rear pressure bulkhead and subsequent loss of the vertical stab, loss of all hydrolic fluid and aircraft control. Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board. Although the cause of the pressure bulkhead failure was the result of faulty repairs after a tail strike on take off of the same plane some years before, it was Boeing who preformed the repairs incorrectly and thus can be considered a mechanical failure that was indeed Boeing's fault.

LH 540- Niarobi, Kenya. Crew failed to deploy leading edge slats and open bleed air intake on the engines prior to take-off. Although accident was crew caused, this led Boeing (after 2 other similar accidents) to add alarms/ warning systems for failure to deploy leading edge and or trailing edge flaps.

So there have been a few accidents involving the 747 and design flaws, but arguably, not too many. The 747 did not suffer the same kind of bad press that the DC-10 did after high profile accidents. Its proof that a type can suffer accidents that dont doom the type completely. I think we all know there have been accidents due to design flaws of just about every kind of airliner flying, both fatal and non fatal.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31097 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 23762 times:
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Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!

I am aware of that. But your comment was that a "catastrophe" might result in Airbus ceasing to be a manufacturer of commercial airliners and all those incidents with 747s certainly meet the dictionary definition of a "catastrophe", yet together they did not mean the end of the 747 or of Boeing as a commercial aviation manufacturer.

If you meant a "catastrophe caused by a design defect", fine. But even then, I don't believe a design failure that directly led to the hull loss of an A380 airframe with significant or total loss of life aboard would mean the cancellation of the A380 program nor would it mean Airbus withdraws as a commercial aviation manufacturer.


User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 23310 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

I'm not exactly sure, but "type two" may be a term referring to certain aspects of fracture and fatigue. A "mode 2" crack is one that propagates by in plane shear stresses. "Stage 2" is also used to describe one of the stages in the growth of a fatigue crack. IIRC, it is the steady growth stage between crack initation (nucleation) and ultimate failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracture_mechanics

The article mentions the discovery of "type 2" cracks, which are described as being of more concern than the previously discovered "type 1" crack. This may suggest that the most recent "type 2" cracks are fatigue cracks that are in the steady growth stage (stage 2), which would be of more concern than "type 1" cracks that are still in the nucleation stage (stage 1).

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2012-03-23 19:25:42]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 23156 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle?

DC-10 was a flop because they didn't act on the issues.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

The loss of an A380, even if through some unknown design failure, will not kill the program, much less Airbus.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?

Boeing, however, modified their design many times, which produced the varying -200 -300 -400 -8 models. All about learning from errors.....sounds deadly, but could be fixed with extensive testing....which is expensive...



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinebridge From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22752 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Japan Airlines 123- the single worst single aircraft disaster of all time, 520 dead. Crash caused by the failure of the rear pressure bulkhead and subsequent loss of the vertical stab, loss of all hydrolic fluid and aircraft control. Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board. Although the cause of the pressure bulkhead failure was the result of faulty repairs after a tail strike on take off of the same plane some years before, it was Boeing who preformed the repairs incorrectly and thus can be considered a mechanical failure that was indeed Boeing's fault.

Boeing's approved repair procedure, however, indeed called for a double row of rivets. The techs erroneously used only a single row. The crash of JAL 123 can't be attributed to a design flaw.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9149 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22406 times:

Quoting redrooster3 (Thread starter):
Seems to be more trouble for the A380. More "serious" hairline cracks.

This is actually old news, been discussed before on here.

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

Two types, 1 and 2

This is the rib with the rib feet



Type 1 cracks are from the fastener hole



Type 2 crack is a horizontal crack



There is over 2000 rib feet on an A380, finding a couple of cracks does not compromise safety.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22174 times:

In this day of the Internet and worldwide cable/satellite TV, cellphones and so on, a problem that the public would have had years to realize now known in maybe days or less, especially when it involves problems with a 'new' aircraft. The A380 is a flagship aircraft, the biggest pax aircraft ever, if something goes full wrong in flight it could kill more than any other aircraft disaster, destroy an airline's rep to the point of collapse and related damage.

I suspect some other problems related to these crack problems could include: higher insurance rates for the owners and operators of A380's. Then there is the hassles and as others mentioned the PR issues; the lost of prestige, lost seats on critical routes, especially at peak seasons with related loss of revenues.

This appears to be a very serious problem that needs full investigation. Is it just the size of the A-380 ? In the goal to save weight and with the use of computers to do engineering calculations, have the margins been made too thin? Is it a bad design, a poor choice of materials, improper assembly decisions? Could the huge use of composite materials creating some unexpected issues in use and didn't show up in tests?

Hopefully reasonable answers can be found before a potentially more serious situation occurs as well as ones that don't cause too much of financial problems for all parties.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2832 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 21990 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
This appears to be a very serious problem that needs full investigation.

Which is why authorities who have direct knowledge of the situation are investigating.  
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
Is it a bad design, a poor choice of materials, improper assembly decisions?

That's why they are investigating.

Honestly people. All airplanes have cracks; designs, maintenance, materials, and assembly methods are continuously improved because of ongoing inspections and maintenance feedback.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1106 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21209 times:

Over 50 years ago, two Lockheed Electras had the wings come off in cruise flight due to design flaws, but Lockheed survived huge adverse publicity before finding the flaw and fixing it.

User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21029 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 21):
Over 50 years ago, two Lockheed Electras had the wings come off in cruise flight due to design flaws, but Lockheed survived huge adverse publicity before finding the flaw and fixing it.

How many Electras did they sell after that, though?



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20811 times:

The technicalities aside, this situation is percieved as worse than probably is because:
1. The 380 is a prominent aircraft
2. The affected craft are very low hours amd cycles for cracks to appear
3. The cracks were found by accident
4. Airbus initially said they were a manufacturing problem and could wait four years for correction, then
5. A 2nd type of crack was discovered, which is fatigue related, and found in low time aircraft.

The whole thing has been badly handled from the start.

The response which to me seems obvious is to say from the start;

OK we have found a problem. It is not an immediate safety problem.
We will check all aircraft and inspect regularly to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft.

I hope Airbus are working hard to ensure the fatigue aircraft is correctly validating the flying aircraft.

A question for those who keep excusing on the basis that all aircraft have cracks. I accept this, but how many have appeared, so early in the life of a craft and are fatigue related?

Ruscoe


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9149 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20521 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
OK we have found a problem. It is not an immediate safety problem.
We will check all aircraft and inspect regularly to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft.

That is exactly what the AD says, problem is most people are so aviation illiterate they do not understand what it says. Even looking at the OP of this thread, the cracks that have been found are already repaired, and somehow this is serious problem for the A380.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
A question for those who keep excusing on the basis that all aircraft have cracks. I accept this, but how many have appeared, so early in the life of a craft and are fatigue related?

Be every aircraft in existence.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
25 soon7x7 : Are the ribs machined from Aluminum Lithium?...from what I am to understand the stuff develops cracks during the manufacturing process but allegedly
26 CM : Yes, Boeing did reject Aluminum-Lithium during 777 development, but that was a first generation alloy with the issues you noted, as well as poor perf
27 BoeingVista : yep, seems more related to a QF push for compensation and the need to distract attention from their failed Asian strategy, there is no new news here.
28 flylku : While currently this is a PR issue for Airbus (who in the general public wants to fly in an airplane with cracks in the wings?) I suspect in the longe
29 WROORD : Do these issues relate to the fact that QF along with SN were the first recipients of A380. You somehow do not hear about AF, KE or LH having issues w
30 Post contains images rcair1 : The fact that they are (in other aircraft) is not relevant to the perception. I believe it is a combination of factors. The 380 is - novel - largest
31 tonyban : I do believe there were one or two survivors.
32 tonyban : ..correction...4 survived.
33 777ER : Wasn't that UA incident on a HNL-AKL flight?
34 Stitch : EK, AF and LH are doing inspections, but I do not recall if either or both types of cracks have been found. I believe the latest AD covers the entire
35 nycdave : I sincerely doubt that, even if this turned into a serious, widespread issue requiring massive overhauls, that it would bring down the A380 program,
36 jet-lagged : That's informative. But I guess those ribs are under the skin? How do they find them (do they take the skin off the wings???) and how do they repair
37 Stitch : They can be inspected via access panels in the wings. The fix appears to be cutting out the affected wing bracket area and putting in a new piece. Fo
38 zeke : The A380 has both composite and Al ribs, the composite ribs have Al caps made from 7449-T7651, and the Al ribs are machined from 7449-T7651 ingots. T
39 zeke : They drain the fuel from the wing, and mechanics are able work inside the wing. Standard non-destructive testing techniques are used inspect the feet
40 Tristarsteve : You make it sound very simple! Lets say these are inside the fuel tanks. You have to empty the fuel tanks, and drain them, and remove panels and blow
41 maxpower1954 : Contrary to common wisdom, Electra orders dried up almost a year prior to the first whirl-mode crash in September 1959. The anticipated arrival of sh
42 soon7x7 : As I have not kept my finger on the pulse of Al-Li, I would have hoped they would have improved the properties by now as you have indicated. Interest
43 CHIFLYGUY : I really doubt the A380 is an unsafe aircraft. However, today's environment is very different from even 20 years ago. Today, basically the public (and
44 Post contains links tdscanuck : If they're talking fracture mechanics, which seems consistent with the pictures in Flightglobal, they're talking about the different crack modes: htt
45 kalvado : I heard about a B-52 exploding on take-off possibly attributed to the same problem. That came from the guy who was on board at the time of explosion.
46 F9Animal : I guess the big question is.... Is QF okay with these issues?
47 CM : Judging by how QF chose to handle the Flight 32 event with Rolls, I would expect they will get their pound of flesh out of Airbus for the cracked rib
48 PHX787 : Does anybody think the cracks in OQA could've been a result of the engine blowout a few years back? Something like that must have been a bunch of str
49 kiwiandrew : I suspect you mean SQ. I doubt very much whether SN will ever require the A380.
50 zeke : I suspect temporary repairs will be made for cracks found during minor checks, and more comprehensive repairs made during a major check. I would not
51 rutankrd : No link what so ever
52 Stitch : EK is also carping about having to compensate passengers booked on A380-800s who find themselves on 777-300ERs due to the A380-800 being in the shop
53 PHX787 : then perhaps it's the weight of the engines combined with the shape and structure of the wing? Just throwin' out some hypotheses
54 kanban : Since the type 2 cracks are in the inspar rib feet that run fore and aft and we have no idea what part of the wing they are located in.. (they could j
55 GRIVely : Is it likely that these "feet" will continue to require regular inspections and, perhaps, multiple replacements of different ones over the years? With
56 tdscanuck : The feet already required regular inspections. What's changed now is the interval. It's like Airbus will introduce a corrective program to change sus
57 zeke : They are only finding cracked feet around mid-span in the same location. It is not a widespread across all ribs. Since this has been traced back to t
58 kanban : Thanks Zeke, sounds like the 2000 bad feet is really more like 200. Now are the Type 1 cracks in the same wing area and are they concentrated in any
59 Post contains images redrooster3 : They were also found in OQB, which were the first two A380's for QF. Maybe their already starting to age.
60 PHX787 : That backs up my theory that the stress on such huge wings from consistent cycles might contribute to the cracks....now have they been found on SQ ?
61 canyonblue17 : Several people have commented that these are small cracks, minor in nature, would have been found anyway and do not pose a risk. I am not an engineer
62 GUYAIR707 : Well they need to find a fix, if they are not sure what it is, and not continue allowing the a/c to fly and bury their heads in the sand and just hop
63 Stitch : Unlike the A350 and A380, carbon fiber does not make up the primary structure of the A380's wings. And the cracks are appearing in Al structures, not
64 zeke : The main load in the wing is being taken by the spar. The main role of the rib is to retain the shape of the wing, and to help transfer some of the l
65 GUYAIR707 : Thanks for that, makes it very clear. How long (approximately if you know) would a fix take, and what are the inherent dangers of flying the a/c whil
66 zeke : As far as I am aware, it takes longer to actually defuel the aircraft and perform the non- destructive testing on the feet than it does to do the rep
67 redrooster3 : OQB was out of service for three days.
68 n729pa : It strikes me as odd that it always seems to be QF that find these cracks, you never see a headline "SIA find A380 cracks" for example, bearing in min
69 kanban : It maybe more corporate policy that keeps SQ quiet... and the story really started with the QF a/c repair so it's logical for reporters to look there
70 Stitch : EK have stated they have found cracks in the 10 planes they have inspected. SQ have also evidently found them in all their planes inspected to date,
71 nomadd22 : ??
72 Stitch : I meant the 787, of course.
73 Post contains links redrooster3 : According to this site, 18 planes have type-two cracks now. Airbus faces €105m repair bill for A380 superjumbos' cracked wings
74 Aircellist : ??? How did you read that? "18 planes have been checked" does not mean "18 planes have type-two cracks", sorry. "[...] type two cracks HAD NOT BEEN D
75 redrooster3 : Calm down...I just read it wrong...Sorry...
76 Post contains images Aircellist : OK Sorry too
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