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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 45542 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is a continuation thread of part 1 which can be found here: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in the new thread.


Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
258 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 45454 times:

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
Um, WN is the one that has the 717's now. If they really wanted the fleet, they'd just hold on to it. I think it's been well established they want to stick with their single fleet philosophy, which has worked for them for decades.

Here's the thing too (continuing from the other thread): What other airlines would use the 717 to compete against DL? If these planes were that important to other airlines, we would've seen many more airlines try to buy them from WN.   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 45297 times:
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I stated the following in the original thread.............
Yes, Delta may acquire AirTrans 717s. However it will be only done if Delta can cut a very sweet deal.
AirTran's 717 fleet will disappear, but who gets it has yet to be played out. All I can say is Boeing does NOT want AirTran's 717s flooding the market as Boeing would be a big looser.   


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 45058 times:
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The only 2 airlines with east coast centric networks that could maximize the use of a 717 in sub 1200 mile routings are US and Delta, IMHO. Delta however has the tech ops expertise to maximize usage of such a fleet. But yes it would be fun to see a 3 or is it a 4 generation lineup in Delta climbing colors: DC9, MD88, MD90, MD95/B717. At least one year of seeing all of these 4 types on the ground at one time at MSP or DTW would be great.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1633 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 42521 times:

It would be a great airplane for a smart start-up that was well capitalized with very exprienced management and a certificate in place purchased from another airline...like Direct Air. It would not have to be based in ATL to give DL fits. GSP, SAV, RIC, PHF, ORF, PIT...CVG or MEM would all wok. And I would bet that some of those cities and states would be tripping over themselves with tax incentives, rent abatements and other enticements.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently onlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4503 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 42488 times:

I'm looking forward to doing the DTW-ORD run on a 717   I really hope this comes to fruition.

User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42246 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

Huh?

Nobody else here in the US


User currently offlinericharlc From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 39324 times:
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I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 39053 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 4):

It would be a great airplane for a smart start-up that was well capitalized with very exprienced management and a certificate in place purchased from another airline...like Direct Air. It would not have to be based in ATL to give DL fits. GSP, SAV, RIC, PHF, ORF, PIT...CVG or MEM would all wok. And I would bet that some of those cities and states would be tripping over themselves with tax incentives, rent abatements and other enticements.

That's exactly what the now barely above water (well, in some places) airline industry- another start-up getting incentives at below cost.

Good grief.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 38686 times:

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):

*rolls eyes* I'm sure he/she has those hard numbers right in the cockpit with them.  



yep.
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 38647 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 2):
I stated the following in the original thread.............
Yes, Delta may acquire AirTrans 717s. However it will be only done if Delta can cut a very sweet deal.
AirTran's 717 fleet will disappear, but who gets it has yet to be played out. All I can say is Boeing does NOT want AirTran's 717s flooding the market as Boeing would be a big looser.

It was also mentioned that DL only wants them if WN will sell ALL of them to DL. I thought that was an interesting twist - DL will only take them at the right price, and if they get all of them, not just a handful. My guess is that offer (if true) would sweeten the pot for WN and make it very attractive (if it wasn't already).


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1472 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 38482 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):

It was also mentioned that DL only wants them if WN will sell ALL of them to DL. I thought that was an interesting twist - DL will only take them at the right price, and if they get all of them, not just a handful. My guess is that offer (if true) would sweeten the pot for WN and make it very attractive (if it wasn't already).

Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinetztristar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 38397 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 11):
Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?

You're not. I wish everyone would stop saying 'buy' when referring to this supposed deal. WN/FL only own 8 and the other 80 are leased from BCC. BCC is a huge part of this and not sure those 80 are actually for sale, but would continue to be leased from them. They certainly do not want them back however as the 25 ex-YX/MX sat for nearly 2 years with no prospects until HA/QF took a few and the rest to start-up Volotea.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 38314 times:

Quoting tztristar500 (Reply 12):

I bet BBC is willing to sell them if that is a sticking point. The last thing they are going to want is to have 88 717s to deal with in 10-20 years.



yep.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 38130 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 11):
Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?

With WN holding one end of the lease contract on the planes, and the timeframe in which they last, having WN in the negotiations is quite vital to a successful outcome. We don't know the terms of thier lease, but I'd bet they have rights to extend the lease on atleast some of the frames. Certainly the plane owners would need WN's approval to end the lease early so that there can be a quicker transition of planes from WN to the new customer (or owner).


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 38032 times:

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):
I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.

You should have then asked the DL pilot why AirTran had/s the lowest CASM in the US. ...Yes, lower than SWA.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 37921 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
tainly the plane owners would need WN's approval to end the lease early so that there can be a quicker transition of planes from WN to the new customer (or owner).

I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases. Boeing even gave WN better lease terms, and they still don't want the 717's


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1472 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 37894 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 16):
I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases.

I don't remember that statement being made. What's odd is all the work that's gone into the training programs for those aircraft (cabin-crew wise) and the cabin-trainers that have been ordered and in some cases delivered for those aircraft. That's a lot of time and money for something you never planned to operate in the first place.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 37760 times:

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):
I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.

Yeah, because all pilots know exactly what they are talking about when it comes to fleet planning!   I'm a pilot and even I will admit we know nothing when it comes to our business plans and ideas.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 37596 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 16):
I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases. Boeing even gave WN better lease terms, and they still don't want the 717's

They have never said that. They said the 717 has no longterm future with WN. Given all the factors, its impossible for WN to have a long term future with the 717 even if they like them. This does not mean that WN was looking to dump the 717 instantly.

I think what WN is really looking for is any deal for thier 717 that leads to no capacity shortfalls by way getting 733/73G/738 frames in time. 733 of course being a harder sell since they would need enough years to pay for the conversion to WN specs.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 37539 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):
I don't remember that statement being made. What's odd is all the work that's gone into the training programs for those aircraft (cabin-crew wise) and the cabin-trainers that have been ordered and in some cases delivered for those aircraft. That's a lot of time and money for something you never planned to operate in the first place.

There is a lot of fan boy fiction going into this thread and what the "likely" outcome is going to be. Many really show they have absolutely no idea of what is going on internally at WN to get these birds ready for Canyon Blue colors.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2353 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 37252 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 19):
I think what WN is really looking for is any deal for thier 717 that leads to no capacity shortfalls by way getting 733/73G/738 frames in time. 733 of course being a harder sell since they would need enough years to pay for the conversion to WN specs.

Are you suggesting that WN will try to acquire additional 733s secondhand, to offset the capacity loss for the 717? I think any future additions to the fleet will be way of 737NG or MAX variants.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlinefadecfault From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 36680 times:

An email was sent out to Airtran Employees Friday from Southwest Airlines Vice president Mike Van de Ven concerning this rumor.
Basically he said SWA is working with Boeing to find the "right solution" for the leased 717 and they wouldn't mind "subleasing" the 717 AND replace them with the 737. They are looking to expand the fleet, not reduce it.
So please understand the 717 will not go anywhere until they have a 1 for 1 replacement solution.
Delta doesn't have any orders for -700 or 800's where swa can take in exchange. I doubt delta would trade most of their current 737's for 717's either.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 36624 times:

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 22):
Basically he said SWA is working with Boeing to find the "right solution" for the leased 717 and they wouldn't mind "subleasing" the 717 AND replace them with the 737. They are looking to expand the fleet, not reduce it.
So please understand the 717 will not go anywhere until they have a 1 for 1 replacement solution.
Delta doesn't have any orders for -700 or 800's where swa can take in exchange. I doubt delta would trade most of their current 737's for 717's either.

On the other hand what if WN handed over a typical leased B717 towards a new 737-700 or 737-800 in a sweet deal. Boeing sells WN another new aircraft and turns around and sells Delta the B717. Could that be a win-win-win for all three entities?

Courtesy: Dallas News.com

Gary Kelly Won't Discuss Rumors That Delta Will Take Its Boeing 717s

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...ary-kelly-wont-discuss-rumors.html


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10427 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 36448 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 23):

Gary Kelly Won't Discuss Rumors That Delta Will Take Its Boeing 717s

Well, the way things usually work, that probably means the deal is sealed.



I was wondering, on another thread, if those 717s wouldn't be a nice fit for DL from their new hub at LGA to replace some of the RJs?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : Sims/tooling/Cabin-trainers etc. call all be sold, and would likely make the deal a little to make because Delta wouldn't have to do any leg work out
26 planespotting : Either that, or they are in very serious discussions - that's how it works in sports negotiations at least.
27 fadecfault : And delivery them.......when? I think Boeing has a slight backlog in the 737 order book. Per the memo the MAX is considered a replacement for the 717
28 westindian425 : Compared to what other aircraft? Hawaiian is doing just fine with them. This doesn't make any sense.
29 mayor : "I have complete confidence in our head coach", says the owner. The coach is canned, within a week.
30 usflyguy : Hawaiian also operates them on much shorter stage lengths with the longest, I believe, being HNL-ITO at 216 miles.
31 B727FA : That'd be nice to have the flying on ML.
32 XT6Wagon : I'm saying that if the right 733 frames at the right price were a portion of this deal, WN would take them. I am unsure of the possiblity of Boeing o
33 panam330 : Great frames to slap on routes like JAX or BUF. Then the 70 seaters they displace can go replace CRJs elsewhere in the system and the 50 seaters can
34 DeltaL1011man : This is all a hear from people, ah Boeing can't do it......Delta is getting something like 100 737s in 4 years? Boeing has slots, always has and alwa
35 litz : WN is probably (if not IS) Boeing's largest 737 purchaser, and there are plenty on order. At the moment, however, these are largely dedicated to repl
36 DeltaL1011man : which is my point, WN could use most of its current order, plus a likely top off of NGs, to replace the 717s. Also it is unlikely they they do a 1 fo
37 fadecfault : Since there's a lot of conjecture going on I'm going to post the memo. Though I don't think it's going to stop the rumor. March 23, 2012 MEMORANDUM TO
38 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Yes, the above post states that 717s are basically under a long term lease. It also states that if the opportunity to sub lease the 717s would occur,
39 STT757 : I agree, for WN to give up the 717s they need something with a similar age (or younger). The 733 does not make the cut, it's 73Gs, 738s or no deal.
40 Coronado : Since elsewhere Mr. Kelly has announced they want to keep overall capacity flat, would one option be to replace the 86 or 88 717's with 45 or 50 738s?
41 Gr8SlvrFlt : WN has at least 50 new 738s scheduled for delivery over the next couple years. Right now they are to replace 735s and 733s one for one. If a deal can
42 luvtrains : Data Deliveries Scheduled 2012-2015 = 33+41+54+48 = 176 717 airframes = 88 735 airframes = 25 733 airframes = 163 there are ~100 733s with winglets, a
43 seabosdca : Interesting perspective. I think in case of growth the airline would be more likely to ask Boeing to squeeze in a few extra 738s. I think their futur
44 luvtrains : 738s Agreed. However, to add to the 733 leasing thought. WFNB, for example, has several 20yr old 733s sitting parked in the sun. From a non-industry
45 TrijetsRMissed : I give you credit for thinking outside the box, but that is a lonnng way to go. If WN take on additional 733s, they will soon find themselves in the
46 luvtrains : Interesting detail, thanks. I think I've ball-parked the details of the fleet replacement schedule if they can ink the deal with DL. These hypothetic
47 lightsaber : Are these threads being generated from uncertainty at AirTran/WN (mostly on the WN side)? I'm trying to figure out what is in it for DL to buy the 71
48 XT6Wagon : trijet, I think what you are missing is that any 733's would be only for bridging the gap between the 717 leaving and a new build being avalible. In
49 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : It makes little if any sense to replace perfectly usable 717s with 737-300s. Southwest may keep their 737-300s longer, but adding more 737-300s is NOT
50 gizmonc : WN has at least 50 new 738s scheduled for delivery over the next couple years. Right now they are to replace 735s and 733s one for one. If a deal can
51 PHX787 : Exactly, and I honestly don't see how this would be a viable replacement. I'm not sure if either craft is fuel-efficient any way.
52 DTWPurserBoy : It won't be a done deal until you read it on Deltanet. The flight attendants are already qualified on 12 aircraft types and they would not be happy a
53 papatango : How do you know that?
54 DTWPurserBoy : That is a DL policy and the sole method of disseminating TRUE information. We will know it before the press or anyone else. They do not comment on ru
55 papatango : I know that, I was asking about your statement regarding the flight attendants.
56 Dalmd88 : I really think DL is not interested in the 717. Just before our VP of Tech Ops moved on to a new position we had a little Q and A session. The 717 que
57 DeltaL1011man : So they would rather see jobs replaced by RJs? They would rather piss away what could be the last chance for a true 100 seater at mainline? I truly,
58 DTWPurserBoy : I know because I have been one for almost 40 years! Transitioning over 22,000 flight attendants to be qualified on every airplane in both the NW and
59 papatango : DTWPurserBoy Ditto to what Delta1011man stated!
60 Post contains images cokepopper : I'm all for it. Like some had mentioned, the more mainline jets the better! We all win. Get rid of the DC9 for the 717, its a wash. Doors/windows can'
61 737tdi : Wow, how the heck did we make any money with that synopsis? Not saying in any way that more -300's are in our future, they probably are not. Never sa
62 Post contains links luvtrains : The C-Series comes up often as the reason for the deal would not happen w/ delta. How does the gentleman's agreement affect the purchase of the C-Seri
63 timf : There is no agreement. It was thrown out as the quote says. American has already bought Airbus, and there's nothing preventing Delta from buying Airbu
64 DeltaL1011man : cool story, really is, but FYI Delta also had to teach every one else how to handle DAL-N or DAL-S fleets. You don't think TechOps has done class roo
65 Post contains images mayor : Using your logic, perhaps DL will never buy a new type a/c, as the F/As won't want to learn to work them.
66 jetjack74 : While he is sort of over-dramatizing the subject, it is an annoyance when "another" fleet type is added. And while it's relatively minor deal, it's s
67 FlyASAGuy2005 : I had one MSP based F/A that was working a delyed MSP-LHR flight some months back call it an MK90 lol. But anyway, towards the end of her rant with t
68 BOACCunard : A friend of mine is an FA at DL (PMDL) and I don't think he minds these, but he really, really dislikes the 319/320. I guess everyone has their own p
69 jetjack74 : Probably 1 of the reasons. But what the real problem is, is functionality of the forward-only galley unit and how cumbersome for 4 people to attempt
70 TR1 : Any new information on this rumor? As much as I would love to see a shiny new E190 or C Series on the property, from a F/A perspective I would find it
71 B727FA : The DC9/717 fleets would be a wash, so I'm good with learning another plane for more ML a/c! If we do the math on fleet DL could retire the remaining
72 FlyASAGuy2005 : I think that's the issue is people aren't following the service guidelines. Heck, I see people do the cart service wrong on a 757.
73 bobnwa : Didn't you say on this forum quite a while ago,that you would never work for Delta as they had Airbus equipment and had RA as president? What has cha
74 DeltaL1011man : And this is how it should be done. I hate some planes at Delta, so what do I do about it? don't work em, but the last thing i wanna see is them parke
75 TrijetsRMissed : With respect to the -300s, there is nothing I said in the above statement that is not true. Notice how no other legacy is still flying the 733. WN wi
76 DeltaL1011man : would kind of being like Delta adding more 88s or AA adding S80s. WN just hasn't replaced them all....yet.....
77 DTWPurserBoy : I think you misunderstood. I don't want or expect anyone to feel sorry for me! I've got the best job in the world. Everyone at DL works as a team. No
78 FlyASAGuy2005 : At the end of the day that's all I'm concerned with. If Delta's making money, we're all making money. Everything else that we're suppose to be doing
79 n7371f : A319 is far heavier. Delta's MTOW is 154,000 lbs on the 319's (at least that was the weight at NWA). The 717 is a MTOW of 114,000 to 121,000. Hawaiia
80 B727FA : With all due respect, FlyASA, it's NOT about following the service guide lines that cause the issue. The problem, esp on the M9K is that there isn't
81 papatango : Interesting how an aircraft purchase rumor became a labor forum!
82 jetjack74 : It's the natural progression of things. We the FAs, are the ones who spend the most time on any given airplane at any given time.
83 ouboy79 : Not really a positive thing. LOL Having a ton of different aircraft isn't a good thing. Look at the mash up USAir had for years... 737-200, -300, -40
84 TrijetsRMissed : The ironic thing is US had higher profits during the days of fleet variation in the 1990s, than the commonality of the 2000s. Of course, that is due
85 mayor : IIRC, DL at several points in the last few decades, has tried just that, but one thing or another has put the plan on the back burner..........right
86 kmot : Do you think Delta would keep the same 12F 105Y layout or will they convert them to 16F 100Y?
87 bobnwa : Can't even begin to answer that until Delta announces they are getting the 717. Anything else would be pure speculation but I guess that is ok on thi
88 DeltaL1011man : 12F and a small (12 i'd bet) EC section. If the 73W/319/320s don't have 16 F the 717 wouldnt
89 kmot : Why are the MD88/90's configured with 16F but the 73W/A319/20 have 12F?
90 tommytoyz : 1. WN will not let 88 planes go without being able to replace a large portion of their capacity. 2. Boeing will not allow a transfer of those leases u
91 Post contains links dtw9 : http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...planned-in-boeing-717-buyer-search Why does everyone think this would happen overnight. it will take three to f
92 DeltaL1011man : Are the 88/90s keeping 16F with EC? I thought the only non 57 narrow body to keep 16F after EC mods was the 37-8s.
93 KingAir200 : Yes. It was up in the air at first, but the 88/90 fleet will stay with 16 up front.
94 Post contains links lightsaber : I still see nothing arguing a great business case for DL to take the 717. What is this rumor based upon? Boeing might have no choice. What are they go
95 DeltaL1011man : and the 320s will go to 12 or stay 16?
96 FlyASAGuy2005 : They got away with it on the 88s/90s because of the soft cabin divider. They've been converting the 320s to 12FC since December to accomodate EC. All
97 rj777 : Ok, so let's examine the facts, shall we? 1) Southwest ACKNOWLEDGES they're looking to place the 717s with another airline 2) Southwest HAS PUBLICLY D
98 dtw9 : Correct Wrong. Southwest won't comment as to whether the rumor is true or not Wrong.See above[Edited 2012-03-31 18:55:15]
99 wjcandee : I disagree. First, the market has changed, and understanding of the market has changed, since the 717 was first offered. Read what was being said abo
100 DeltaL1011man : Wait so if thats the case why have we taken a boat load of M90s....? You know the airplane Delta canceled its orders for other than the 16 original f
101 kmot : They would be hard pressed to get EC in with a layout of 12F 105Y without reducing the seat pitch in First. Currently coach on these birds is already
102 n7371f : 320's are going F12. In fact many of them are already out flying. Delta has said the layout of the A320 with the more-forward over-wing emergency exi
103 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : This past week, Execs from DL and WN met in Tempe, AZ to discuss fleet planning strategies... Interestingly, HA was present as well. On a side-note, a
104 DeltaL1011man : Y count would have to change. Likely would mean the loss of a row of seats. But I would also bet they would add the sim-line seats to make up for som
105 Post contains images bomber996 : There are two routes in the past couple of years that I have flown that have had DC-9's replaced with CRJ's in the NW/DL system that would be PRIME ca
106 DTWPurserBoy : DL wants to take VERY good care of their high value customers.
107 kmot : In GFK, Delta will retain frequency. The City and State worked very hard to ensure that GFK offered at least 5-6 flights a day in and out of GFK so th
108 rj777 : First off, DeltaL1011man,I don't appreciate you twisting my words. Sure some of my points were wrong, but I was just basing it off of what I have rea
109 Post contains images dtw9 : I don't think the 88's are going anywhere for a while either. Delta's BOD just approved new dashboards for the 88's and 90's (just waiting for fundin
110 msp747 : When did this get approved? Any ideas on how much it would cost? How long it would take to modify the entire fleet? The only reason I ask is the fuel
111 n7371f : I'm not sure that it did. I might have and I just misinterpreted it. I do know the whole testing it out on a MD88 out of CVG is the plan - and that m
112 dtw9 : Last month. Kind of strange too, as they looked at it last year and shelved it. Not sure on costs( heard some numbers but I'm not going to say), but
113 PSU.DTW.SCE : For much of the past 2 years DL has been running a lot of analysis around fleet replacement scenarios. Hence there was the RFP for the 200 aircraft, i
114 Post contains images B757forever : [quote=PSU.DTW.SCE,reply=113]For much of the past 2 years DL has been running a lot of analysis around fleet replacement scenarios.... Well said. The
115 Logos : Clearly something they learned from the NW part of their heritage. As much as I like shiny new airplanes and to see interesting new types added to fl
116 irshava : Supposedly DL gets these planes, what will they replace and where will they fly? Just wondering.... any guesses?
117 mayor : Not necessarily. The 727 fleet lasted about 31 years.......the DC-9s (original DL ones) lasted about 28 years and the DC-8s lasted about 30 years. No
118 akelley728 : Can someone give a breakdown of the previous owners of these now 75 planned and how many came from each one?? I know there's the 16 original Delta, I
119 timf : Delta has taken delivery of the following 51 aircraft: Delta original - 16 (9201-9216) Hello - 6 (3 purchased 9217-9219, 3 leased from SAS 9234-9236)
120 Logos : I was thinking more about the buying used part of it (with regard to NW's DC-9 acquisitions), but I guess PMDL did a little bit of that, too, with so
121 B727FA : I'll tell you, there are things that are being passed off as "best practice" that clearly aren't. I won't go on "which side" I'm speaking to, but I'll
122 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : These are the aircraft DL are interested in. The BR planes are almost a sure bet, with BR's A321 order intended to replace the MD-90 fleet. They may
123 B727FA : Oh? What is your source? Do you have some more you can share? Thanks!
124 PHLBOS : Actually, US still has some 733s in their fleet. Although, they're considered a LCC since the 2005 HP merger; they're still a network/legacy carrier
125 seabosdca : At this point Delta has signed for 9 of the 16. It's hard to imagine any scenario in which they don't take the other 7 short of global economic meltd
126 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Nice try. Believe me or not; it's your choice. Are you sure? IIRC, only the 734s are active in the fleet now.
127 FlyASAGuy2005 : You dog you...LOL
128 boberito6589 : There are still 7 737-300 left on the east side. Along with the 40 737-400s.
129 PIEAvantiP180 : So if true we can essentially have the MD-90 replace the MD-80 fleet since with the Saudi birds DL would have close to 100 of them and we can have th
130 akelley728 : Thank you so much for this breakdown! Do you or anybody else know the status of the various MD90s mods that are out there? I believe that all of the
131 audidudi : SV has 28 in storage and one in active service; First the stored aircraft: 53491 2191 McDonnell Douglas MD-90-30 HZ-APA Saudi Arabian Airlines Stored
132 atlengineer : Ship 2257 (HZ-APW) was involved in a landing accident in 2009 that collapsed a gear and damaged the wing. It may not have been repaired to flyable co
133 FlyASAGuy2005 : Common misconception. DL is not trying to retire the RJ fleet. They're also not trying to replace all 200s with 700s 900s. There was a set target for
134 B727FA : Hey, you can't blame me for asking Mom and Dad what I was getting for my birthday, either, right? Ok, throw me a bone: approx time frame for the so-p
135 saab2000 : This. I too am a pilot for a US carrier and for years have been hearing of the immediate demise of various types (especially the 50-seater) but they
136 PIEAvantiP180 : You are correct, I should have worded that better. Like you said not replace the RJ fleet but to just reduce it.
137 Post contains images bjorn14 : Glad to see someone thinks an E190 is mainline. Yeah, the published range for the 717 is about 1400 miles and the 319 is about 3600 miles.
138 PHX787 : What's the point of having all of these stored???? Are they all going to DL or gonna be ripped apart?
139 N766UA : I just saw one yesterday.
140 TrijetsRMissed : I stand corrected, thank you. With the fleet reduced significantly in recent years, I imagine their days are numbered. Father time always wins. Patie
141 N766UA : Yeah, honestly I'd thought they been gone for years in the east, but sure enough I saw one putzing around CLE. In from Charlotte I believe.
142 PIEAvantiP180 : Its a little of topic but what would be the total number of MD-90s in DL fleet if they add the SV birds? Including the JL birds yet to be signed for b
143 DeltaL1011man : with the Taiwan birds ~105 11 birds in Taiwan
144 n7371f : I believe I read just last week were EVA is ordering additional 321's for their flying to China and Japan. I believe article mentioned removing last
145 akelley728 : - To be delivered: JAL - 7 (9239-45) SubTotal: 58 Possible future aircraft: JAL - 7 (9246-9252) EVA Air - 5 UNI Air - 6 Saudi Arabian - 29 Total: 105
146 woodsboy : With all things considered, DL could really come out of this with a large, modern fleet acquired quickly with extremely attractive leases (717s) and v
147 jetjack74 : What's the difference between the SV MD-90's versus the rest of the world?
148 TrijetsRMissed : Looks like there's a chance Airbus is going to spoil the party, folks. Even if it means selling at break even, and taking back an aging inventory. It
149 FlyASAGuy2005 : They are the only ones with the glass cockpit that was actually intended for the 90s but all operators wanted commonality with their 80s (including D
150 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : SV opted for the original all-glass layout since their MD-90 order was placed in conjunction with an MD-11F order. Of course, these two flightdecks m
151 jetjack74 : Well, aren't we going in that direction with the MD88/90 fleet anyway?
152 Post contains images cbphoto : wait..so Airbus just threw in a counter offer for the 717 deal for possibly a A3XX NEO order with Airbus taking back some older A320s from DL? I thin
153 kmot : How could all new Airbuses be a money savor? Isn't the point of the used planes all based on costs?
154 Post contains links TrijetsRMissed : It would not be the NEO but rather the current A320 model. Airbus has extra inventory on hand as a result of deferred/cancelled orders. This along wi
155 dtw9 : It's not for NEO's. Apparently they have open slots that they can't sell before they start building NEO's and are looking to dump them on someone. No
156 kmot : Where can I find more information on the story behind Airbus and Northwest in the late 80's?
157 TrijetsRMissed : Agreed. But Airbus discounts can be steep and asset disposal can go a long way - which may not even be limited to the current Airbus fleet. FWIW, DL
158 kmot : The 717 and A319 will accommodate the same number of passengers but are designed for different roles. Will there be a huge difference in operation cos
159 n7371f : Fairly decent amount. The 319 weights 20-30k pounds more than the 717.
160 cbphoto : Ahh..gotcha! Thanks for the information!
161 akelley728 : So we're only talking about the older A320s in a potential deal with Airbus? How would that affect the 717?
162 FlyASAGuy2005 : I think the problem lies in people looking at the whole 1 for 1 replacement thing too much. In a general sense, DL usually looks at fleet replacement
163 PSU.DTW.SCE : Exactly. Due to a variety of reasons - mergers, scope agreements, economics, network, aircraft age, mission capability - DL is looking to rebalance i
164 TrijetsRMissed : I don't think I've ever made mention of a "1 for 1 replacement" scenario. It IS about capacity, and DL does not need 88 717s and potentially 100+ new
165 FlyASAGuy2005 : Just to be clear; I understood what you emant. That comment was directed towards the other poster.
166 kmot : Any timeframe on these announcements?
167 vin2basketball : Lightsaber, In terms of a potential business case, you'd have to run the numbers on the 717 v. both the C-Series (which potential competitors in the
168 ultrapig : With the increasing costs of fuel the idea of parking an aircraft becomes more and more of an option: Here is some simple math. In 1985 an MD 80 could
169 DTWPurserBoy : Some of them have already been parted out. Pull up N302US in the photo section. There are several shots of the old girl being parted out in Pinal in
170 n7371f : 3201 through 3208 were parted out at Marana and Goodyear between 2006 and 2008.
171 PSU.DTW.SCE : Well DL's Q1 earnings will be announced within the next two weeks. It will be interesting to see how the executives respond to analyst questions on th
172 msp747 : So they wouldn't just use both deals to phase out the MD88's? Seems to me that the deal with Airbus could help them replace all the old A320's and a
173 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : That is exactly why Delta may consider obtaining the 717s. They would tide Delta over until the newer generation of the of the 737 is available. It w
174 airbuske : According to some internal communication, the deal has been finalized. B717 A/C will be numbered 47XX.
175 cbphoto : Nice! Any information on how many they will acquire?
176 DeltaL1011man : and hopefully this means no scarebus?
177 bobnwa : What internal communication would that be since it hasn't appeared on Deltanet which is the official Delta communication tool?
178 PIEAvantiP180 : This is only a guess but i'm sure that there is always all kinds of communication going on between higher level execs that newer reach the regular Jo
179 papatango : We just might see an Airbus announcement first.
180 cmb320 : That's what I'm hoping for. Can't stand the thought of more MD's entering the fleet. Ughhh
181 FlyASAGuy2005 : I'd just venture to guess that the poster means those that actually know about the deal. It won't hit DeltaNet until the folks on the street know.
182 DeltaL1011man : ha or after. Yahoo seems to beat them to the punch every time.
183 TrijetsRMissed : Analysis paralysis. Each counter and one-up from the suppliers, requires further breakdown and dissection. DL is certainly exercising their leverage..
184 xdlx : People talk about the Saudi MD90, I was in Rhyiad last Dec and the MD90 where all bunched up and in long term storage. Some where missing Eng etc. If
185 TrijetsRMissed : Not all are currently airworthy. Some have been sitting in the desert for almost two years. Many others, just a matter of months. And are ready to go
186 PIEAvantiP180 : This is just my wild guess but if SV has them all perked i'm sure that they will go dirt cheap because I know nobody will want them and if they don't
187 B747forever : Sorry if it already has been mentioned, but from where are the 717s coming from? Why, what is wrong with the MD's?
188 drerx7 : Southwest
189 B747forever : Oh, yes of course. It never crossed my mind!
190 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : The Saudi MD-90s probably will never fly. They are missing parts and are in terrible condition. It would cost a fortune to get them in an airworthy en
191 DeltaL1011man : a good bit of them are ready to go, and the only parts that I know of Saudi selling are their spares. (the Widget has a good bit of them) And the cos
192 Post contains images xdlx : Saudia MD90 Fleet at Rhyad 12/2011....
193 Post contains images B757forever : Scrap value is well within the capitol spending limits at DL
194 mayor : It's not that they beat DeltaNet to the punch.....it's just that, in some cases, DL releases it to the media before they put it on DeltaNet. I believ
195 DTWPurserBoy : Boy, you got that right! All you Widgets out there review the Social Media Policy posted on Deltanet.
196 kmot : Any updates? You would think that if an internal memo went out there would be more information filtering in through different channels.
197 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : It was noted today here on Airlines.net that a Saudi Airlines MD-90 was flown to Roswell, NM today.
198 papatango : Looks like the deal is dead!
199 FlyASAGuy2005 : Aright i'm done. I'll believe it when I see it on DLNet and an SEC doc is filed...
200 n7371f : AerSale, a Florida based lessor, is buying 24 of Saudi's MD-90's. AerSale also does a fair amount of parting out too - so I wouldn't necessarily coun
201 PIEAvantiP180 : Well that sucks if true, can you tell us what the reason is and if airbus has anything to do with it?
202 Post contains links TrijetsRMissed : DL will need to sacrifice 738 slots for WN, to make up the capacity loss for the 717s. WN would prefer to slowly retire 737 classics in conjunction wi
203 DeltaL1011man : Delta doesn't have slots to give. They have the 100 900ERs on order plus 30 options(which are for any NG) but they are for 2016-17 I think. Unless yo
204 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : You're correct. I meant delivery slots, which WN would fill with the 738. It's up to Boeing to find a way for WN to gain slots without causing DL to
205 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : If that's the route they're going, it's pretty obvious where the parts would be sourced for
206 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : and in theory they should be able to. Delta gave up 80ish options with 60 slots being before 2015. If Delta/boeing wanna make a deal they will. I jus
207 PSU.DTW.SCE : Let's just see what news (or lack thereof) comes out next Wednesday during the Q1 Financial results news release and webcast.
208 TrijetsRMissed : While I would like to see an official announcement made, it would not surprise me if the decision is not made public for another month or two.
209 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : easy. "we do not comment on M&A and or Aircraft rumors. NEXT!" Ha i can just hear Richards voice when i think about it. Plus I think fuel will be
210 bobnwa : Where did you hear that rumor and how valid is it?
211 B727FA : 737 line is ramping up from 33 to 45/month. That could be the capacity/slots required.
212 dtw9 : R A stated yesterday that the price for the 717's was too high "for now". Negotiations are continuing and a final decision will be made before the en
213 rj777 : What about the A320s? Are they in the same boat as well (losing money for DL)?
214 drerx7 : I'm sure they do make money as they have a more favorable CASM.
215 TrijetsRMissed : Confirms what I'm hearing on my end as well. I agree it is still Boeing's deal to lose. IMO, there is too much at stake to allow DL to sign with Airb
216 PGNCS : Please cite a source for this.
217 B757forever : He did express at a "breakfast with Richard" about two years ago that he does not like the CASM for the A319 and the aircraft is not ideally suited t
218 PSU.DTW.SCE : The exact quote RA made when they announced they were going from 16F to 12F on the A319 was that "the CASM on the A319 is challenging" and that DL wa
219 dtw9 : Thanks B757forever. I knew I heard this about the A319 over a year and a half ago and wasn't about to go digging. If I remember correctly he wasn't t
220 drerx7 : I'm sure he wasn't - hence why they are a niche bird at DL.
221 PGNCS : So it's not the same as saying the A-319 was unprofitable for the company. There is no question that the incremental costs of flying an A-320 or B-73
222 SaabFA71 : Maybe Allegiant can take the 717s if Delta doesn't take them. That would be a suitable replacement for their older MD-80s......them things can't fly f
223 DeltaL1011man : No, but they are aging Agreed. eh more worried about the CASM, and wanting to find a way to add more seats. agreed. I just don't see more 319s. I cou
224 PGNCS : Well sure. I didn't disagree with that. Airlines all over are looking at ways to put more seats into the same planes. How much is possible within the
225 PSU.DTW.SCE : PGNCS - exactly. Let's put an end to the blanket statement of "DL's A319s are unprofitable" That simply is not true. That statement has never been ma
226 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : last year lol 1992 is closer to what your looking for. (92 is when the DL 9s went away. Then you had the 732s in the 2000s, which was going to be rep
227 mayor : They may be a "niche" bird, but IIRC, the reason they were purchased, in the first place was that they were needed for some of the hot and high airpo
228 ericaasen : Man, I would love to know who your local reliable source is. Because I actually work for DL at ORD and we have way more MX delays on all of the MD pr
229 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm still waiting on something more definitive about these negotiations. Is there a paint shop at ATL? It certainly would save time transferring the p
230 Dalmd88 : One part of the equation on all these planes is still up in the air and it can be very important to which way DL goes. The pilot contract is currently
231 PSU.DTW.SCE : The pilot contract is one particular variable, but not so much about pay versus scope. The pilot costs are only one minor variable in the matter. The
232 TrijetsRMissed : Mind you this was for year 2010. I think A320s were being used on ATL, MSP, MEM and SLC. Perhaps the numbers are no longer comparable - now that MD d
233 Post contains images akelley728 : Sounds like a "niche" to me!
234 DeltaL1011man : Delta has three paint bays in Atlanta. (all at TOC-III) note bay 10 hasn't been used for paint for a while but AFAIK is still able to paint a plane i
235 wjcandee : I'm pretty sure Leading Edge could get the job done in the time frame that Delta wants...
236 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Paint is not a problem. The cost of securing the 717 is. If Boeing wants to play hard ball, Boeing may wind up parking them as Southwest probably doe
237 sunking737 : AAR in MIA is working on the 717 going to the new airline in Europe. Name escapes me sorry. However AAR just signed a deal to take over the NWA MX fa
238 Post contains images B727FA : Well, you know what they say: airplane today, Coke can tomorrow.
239 dtw9 : Scope is going to get interesting because R A wants the get down to between 100 and 150 50 seaters ASAP. You can bet he's going to want more 76 seate
240 DTWPurserBoy : Actually, the original writer is correct. Many years ago every manufacturer was trying to come up with a DC-3 replacement--Convair especially--but no
241 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : You are very correct about the DC-9. Probably the current replacement for a DC-3 might be, and I say might be, is a Twin Otter. Very rugged aircraft.
242 PSU.DTW.SCE : 100 - 150 50 seaters seems very low considering the size of DL's network. It is also in no way achievable for another 5+ years simply because of the
243 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : Doesn't work like that. Nothing is EVER that simple. Delta will come back with 717 is closer to the E95 in size, the DC9 rate had the larger family t
244 kmot : Any update on the 717's? Were they discussed on the call this week?
245 papatango : No Looks like this is a dead deal.
246 Post contains images lightsaber : Thank you. I was kidding. I'm sure for that big of a job they could outsource. Interesting tidbit. It doesn't mean anything, but it is interesting. L
247 n7371f : Small Spanish start-up is taking a half-dozen or so former Midwest/Mexicana 717's. It's been discussed previously.
248 PIEAvantiP180 : Just read the transcripts from the conference call and no questions were asked and DL execs did not say anything. There was one question regarding th
249 n7371f : Not at all. In internal communications with Flight Ops, Richard said the price is too high right now for either the 717 or the 319. He said they plan
250 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : ..... smh yeah great idea. maybe send it to Delta TechOps Mexico addition where did you gather that from?
251 TZTriStar500 : Volotea is taking 20.
252 gizmonc : Rumor mill tells me that DL has signed the papers for the 717 from WN : Details to follow........................ that is what we are heading on campu
253 TrijetsRMissed : IMO, it's just a matter of if they'll be owned or leased by DL. Either way, the 717s would be considerably cheaper to acquire and are a better fit for
254 wjcandee : Boeing probably has a right to approve the sublease...
255 TrijetsRMissed : Probably... but why muddy up the water for two of your biggest clients? If DL and WN came to an agreement, any approval from Boeing would be in the w
256 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Boeing should not interfere with Southwest subleasing these 717s to Delta. Doing so would be be utter stupidity on Boeing's part. Boeing does NOT nee
257 Post contains images lightsaber : Nitpick: Both RR and Boeing would have to negotiate a service contract with DL. A wee bit more than a formality. Its the engine vendors major profit
258 Post contains links LipeGIG : All users, This become too long and due to this, we opened a new thread Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 3 (by LipeGIG Apr 26 2012 in Civil Avi
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