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Turboprop Resurgence In The US?  
User currently offlinebaje427 From Barbados, joined Jul 2011, 405 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15773 times:

I know this topic has been broached before but things have changed a bit since then. With the current trend in oil prices could we see the reintroduction of props on a larger scale in the US I know financing new planes has been the issue but would BBD or ATR not be able to offer a good deal if the order is large enough?

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15727 times:

Not until there are new designs available. The two choices right now are the ATRs and the Q400. I'm not real familiar with ATRs, and from what I understand the 400 has reliability issues. The 400 is also takes up a lot of ramp space and has high acquisition costs. Until someone builds an economic 50 seater I don't think you'll see much in the way of new turboprops.

Not to mention the stigma which isn't going to be easy to overcome.


User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15652 times:

Horizon is an example of turboprop resurgence. They discontinued their RJs in favor of the Q400. They seem to be doing well and have entered a lot of new markets.

User currently offlinepenguins From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15603 times:

I do not think so. First off, there are not really many options avaliable. DashTrash stated what was wrong with the Q400, so I will now to the ATR. The ATR is slow for such a large country and has been already been redired or is being retired by DL and BQ. Second of all, there are too many RJs in the sky right now. According to flighare there are over 600 in the air currently. This is too great a number to replace and because turboprops are much slower, even more would be needed to keep the same frequeinces.

User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15495 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 1):
Until someone builds an economic 50 seater I don't think you'll see much in the way of new turboprops

Something like a Q300NG.


User currently offlinebaje427 From Barbados, joined Jul 2011, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15453 times:

From previous threads on the Q400 it has been suggested those reliability issues have been reduced could we see Colgan picking up some more Q's ? Also has anyone tried the J class on the Q400 ?

User currently onlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15294 times:

Quoting baje427 (Reply 5):

I believe United Express (might not have been them) retrofitted at least one last year with a two class cabin. I remember seeing the announcement because it was the first carrier to have the two classes on the Q400.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineDash8Driver16 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15294 times:

It is an interesting issue. The Q also has the problem of violating some scope clauses which make a no go as well as the ATR-72. The ATR-42 Seater is a viable option but with the lake of APU and some of the stigma of Roslyn(Its not a good Ice plane) it makes it tough for airlines to buy into it for the NE corridor(where a lot of these turboprops would be going. The lack of a good 35 seat turboprop is another detriment to the whole resurgence argument. There was a recent interview with Dion Flannery where he talked about the difficulty in acquiring Dash-8's. He said that they even put the Mainline Acquisition team on the job and they were not able to secure one lease for either a -100 or a -300. Now i do not know if they were actually being competitive in their bargaining but it does say something about the market. Most free airframes are being snapped up. I have heard rumors that the Air Force is trying to pick up Dash's as well whether this is intended to replace the sherpa's or to try and take the flying that Presidential/Dynamic is doing overseas we will see. All this means for a turbo prop resurgence is that the market has more customers for less airframes. Also there are a lack of readily available airframes out there.

What is the backlog at BBD and ATR?


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15265 times:

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
some of the stigma of Roslyn(Its not a good Ice plane) it makes it tough for airlines to buy into it for the NE corridor(where a lot of these turboprops would be going

I don't think this is an issue. We've hashed that out so many times on here I can't even count.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 6):
I believe United Express (might not have been them) retrofitted at least one last year with a two class cabin. I remember seeing the announcement because it was the first carrier to have the two classes on the Q400.
Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
There was a recent interview with Dion Flannery where he talked about the difficulty in acquiring Dash-8's. He said that they even put the Mainline Acquisition team on the job and they were not able to secure one lease for either a -100 or a -300.

The Q300 is an interesting aircraft. Only 267 were produced, and I'm not sure how many are still in service which helps explain why they're having a tough time.

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
The lack of a good 35 seat turboprop is another detriment to the whole resurgence argument.

Saab 340B+ is a decent aircraft.


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15171 times:

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
What is the backlog at BBD and ATR?

I heard not too many at BBD but ATR has a backlog of about 175 frames for the 72-600 ( a few may be -500s) and about 20 for the 42-600. IIRC

Turboprops were never meant for near transcon flying. They were meant for 200-500nm segments which can compete with the RJs.

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
The lack of a good 35 seat turboprop is another detriment to the whole resurgence argument

I used to think this too but upon further evaluation the operating cost would almost be identical to 45-50 seater turboprop. A little higher acquisition cost but those 10-15 extra seats would pay for it over the life of the a/c not to mention greater flexibilty.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15060 times:

What about the 328? Dornier had a nice product yet all operators of the type in the us don't fly anymore. What about the SAAb 2000, right size plane for the us yet never a success

User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14833 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 10):
What about the 328? Dornier had a nice product yet all operators of the type in the us don't fly anymore. What about the SAAb 2000

Both of these airplanes were killed by cheap oil and an RJ obsession. The DO 328 also suffered from horrible customer support, at least when it was initially introduced with Horizon.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14672 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 10):
What about the 328?

There are still some 328s flying, at least here in Europe. In fact, OS just started a new, high frequency mainly 328 shuttle between LNZ and VIE operated by 2W (Welcome Air).

Until they went bankrupt, C9 had a number of 328 flights, including a potentially (for me) very handy SZG-ZRH that I never got to try.


User currently offlinescarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14579 times:

I think if oil costs continue to rise then TP's will become more popular in the U.S. The market is extremely good for the ATR at the moment with even old frames (both 42's and 72's) being snapped up almost immediately. As for the Dash 8-300 they are extremely popular and don't stay on the market for long either once one or more become available. The Q400 although having a rocky start will probably become a little more popular particularly in former Soviet countries where speed and range are important due to the lack of infrastructure and unavailability of ATR's. Despite the Buffalo crash the Q400 is still a good TP in icing conditions thanks to where it's built.

Cheaper fuel in the states has allowed the RJ's to flourish but that picnic is coming to an end meaning that very short sectors will no longer be viable for the older generation RJ's and although new models are available there will be a delay until availability catches up with demand allowing the TP to gain a foothold and probably remain there to some degree as prices go higher. It is unlikely that smaller TP's will continue to meet demand so I expect that the Q400 and ATR72 will be the only candidates as smaller frames just can't cut it on established/mature routes. As the RJ's are also getting bigger the gap will increase and the TP will most probably be there to stay.

Brgds



No faults found......................
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14408 times:

Quoting penguins (Reply 3):
This is too great a number to replace and because turboprops are much slower, even more would be needed to keep the same frequeinces.

I don't buy that one. Unless those RJ's have veeery tight schedules where every minute counts, then there would be no difference at all. And frankly, with hub&spoke system of legacies, that's usually not the case.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 9):
Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
What is the backlog at BBD and ATR?

I heard not too many at BBD

Yes, not much at all! But WS is very likely to order 40 of them soon.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3388 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14276 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 14):
I don't buy that one. Unless those RJ's have veeery tight schedules where every minute counts, then there would be no difference at all. And frankly, with hub&spoke system of legacies, that's usually not the case.

United schedules 25 minute turns and quite frankly the longer segments that are flown with the E145, turboprop useage isn't pratical on many of the flights.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14278 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 1):
Not to mention the stigma which isn't going to be easy to overcome.

This is the single largest issue, IMO with turboprops. I was deadheading on a Q400 a few weeks ago that was a handful fo months old, and had yet to hit 1000hrs on the airframe but I heard several passengers joking that it must be a WWII relic. One person flat out told me I was lying when they asked me how old the airplane was, and I told them. Evene DL dropped the TP flying in favor of jets in a lot of markets, even though the Saabs were profitable to be "all jet." My understanding is a lot of the EAS routes that were kept are being flown with 50 seaters at a loss now. I have people ask me all the time if the turboprop I fly is actually safe. They look at me like I'm from a different planet when I tell them it has a better safety record than most mainline airplanes.

Quoting baje427 (Reply 5):
From previous threads on the Q400 it has been suggested those reliability issues have been reduced could we see Colgan picking up some more Q's ? Also has anyone tried the J class on the Q400 ?

Reliability is still an issue with the Q, although it is slowly improving. Some of the metrics I've seen have them keeping up with older 50 seat RJs now, but with so few flying, one delay or cancellation makes a larger impact on performance figures than if one RJ cancels or delays.

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 7):
The Q also has the problem of violating some scope clauses

Most scope clauses specify jets. CO used this to allow the Q, since it is a turboprop.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24786 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14261 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 14):
Quoting penguins (Reply 3):
This is too great a number to replace and because turboprops are much slower, even more would be needed to keep the same frequeinces.

I don't buy that one. Unless those RJ's have veeery tight schedules where every minute counts, then there would be no difference at all. And frankly, with hub&spoke system of legacies, that's usually not the case.

The speed difference is only notable for the ATR. There's not much difference between block times for the much faster Q400 and jets on typical routes.

One example: YUL-YHZ (435 nm) where AC uses the E-190 and Porter the Q400. Block time is 1:26 for the E-190 and 1:35 for the Q400. Nine minutes longer is not "much slower" on a 435 mile sector. Westbound difference is 10 to 14 minutes.


User currently offlineirelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12597 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 16):
This is the single largest issue, IMO with turboprops. I was deadheading on a Q400 a few weeks ago that was a handful fo months old, and had yet to hit 1000hrs on the airframe but I heard several passengers joking that it must be a WWII relic. One person flat out told me I was lying when they asked me how old the airplane was, and I told them. Evene DL dropped the TP flying in favor of jets in a lot of markets, even though the Saabs were profitable to be "all jet." My understanding is a lot of the EAS routes that were kept are being flown with 50 seaters at a loss now. I have people ask me all the time if the turboprop I fly is actually safe. They look at me like I'm from a different planet when I tell them it has a better safety record than most mainline airplanes.

I don't think it's necessarily the stigma of a turboprop. I think it's mainly the "smallness". People seem to equate big with "safe".

To back this up I'll offer up a few examples recently where I was on RJs and people were either on the phone or talking amongst themselves referring to it as a "puddle jumper".

I'll admit that an additional issue with turboprops is noise, and perceived "oldness", but both of these can be overcome.

The first issue can be overcome with active noise cancellation. Doesn't the Q400 have this? Surely the noise level in the cabin can't be too bad. Additionally, each seat can have an attached noise cancelling headset.

The second issue can be overcome with IFE, and nicer interiors. One thing people equate with "modernity" is in flight entertainment. The noise cancelling headsets can be wired in to XM radio. So people will put them on to listen to some music and forget all about the noise, and be impressed that they can hear sat radio on a "puddle jumper" and forget about how small or ancient it is.

The Q400NG has a pretty modern looking interior doesn't it?

-IR


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12497 times:

Quoting irelayer (Reply 18):
The Q400NG has a pretty modern looking interior doesn't it?

It's not too bad. I've been on the new 9L Q400s 7 times or so now and they look nice.

This is a PD Q400:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Porte...d=d7c31a56af64c52a42c0f1ad9d6961ca


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12500 times:

Quoting irelayer (Reply 18):
I'll admit that an additional issue with turboprops is noise, and perceived "oldness", but both of these can be overcome.

The Q is a very quiet aircraft. I fly it often between IAH and DFW and actually prefer it to a CRJ or a 737. If only those had the range to get from DFW to LAX   

I would love to see a revamped, faster ATR enter the US market. Also, since demand of turboprops may skyrocket soon, is there a chance Embraer may jump on this?



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinegreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12335 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 16):
This is the single largest issue, IMO with turboprops. I was deadheading on a Q400 a few weeks ago that was a handful fo months old, and had yet to hit 1000hrs on the airframe but I heard several passengers joking that it must be a WWII relic. One person flat out told me I was lying when they asked me how old the airplane was, and I told them. Evene DL dropped the TP flying in favor of jets in a lot of markets, even though the Saabs were profitable to be "all jet." My understanding is a lot of the EAS routes that were kept are being flown with 50 seaters at a loss now. I have people ask me all the time if the turboprop I fly is actually safe. They look at me like I'm from a different planet when I tell them it has a better safety record than most mainline airplanes.

I dont understand why this is an issue anymore. The fact of the matter is that most passengers who end up flying on an RJ route are connecting or have connected from a mainline flight. CO had no problem with their Q200s, which I have personally flown on and found to have been near capacity each time.

If airlines like DL would rather fly jets at a much lower profit margin or loss than TPs when TPs are a viable and competitive option, then it serves them right to be in the terrible financial positions that they were in during the oil spikes.

Since one cannot use alternative transportation methods to connect on a plane in a hub, the airlines can, and should decide which aircraft passengers fly in based on which would result in the lowest cost and therefore lowest fares for the passenger. Assuming that a TP plane is as safe, as reliable, and as equipped as a comparable jet of equal size, the airline should not have any qualms assigning a TP plane to an RJ route. I bet there are few passengers out there actually willing to pay the full cost of an RJ flight than pay a cheaper TP fare.



Now you're really flying
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12264 times:

The ATR42-600 is a fully revamped plane and just launched.

Its an extraordinarily economical 50 seater.

NS


User currently offlineirelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12027 times:

Quoting greaser (Reply 21):
Since one cannot use alternative transportation methods to connect on a plane in a hub, the airlines can, and should decide which aircraft passengers fly in based on which would result in the lowest cost and therefore lowest fares for the passenger. Assuming that a TP plane is as safe, as reliable, and as equipped as a comparable jet of equal size, the airline should not have any qualms assigning a TP plane to an RJ route. I bet there are few passengers out there actually willing to pay the full cost of an RJ flight than pay a cheaper TP fare.

I agree. The problem is one of perception. If you go all prop and your competitor goes all jet they can use that as a competitive advantage. I'm not sure if it will ever happen that way, but in hub markets with 2 or more carriers it is a possibility. The degree to which it really matters? Probably not a whole lot. The lost revenue from a few people swayed by arguments like that will probably be made up by the cost savings of a TP.

-IR


User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 930 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11685 times:
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Quoting irelayer (Reply 18):
active noise cancellation

Active noise cancellation means more wiring and equipment = more weight.



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
25 PC12Fan : This is going to sound a lot like the "could the 757 line be started again" threads, but I wish this was the case for the Saab 2000. This thing was t
26 PC12Fan : True, but in this case it's worth it since you have happier passengers after the flight. Besides, on the props, it shouldn't make that much of a dent
27 XT6Wagon : Turboprops won't start to really gain ground again until the tiny piles like the saab's are well out of the collective memory of US passengers. A Q400
28 L1011 : Why not an updated Lockheed Electra, not necessarily built by Lockheed, but the same size as the Electra. The Electra was the most comfortable turbopr
29 Post contains images AvroArrow : I think I've heard the idea of a ~ 100 seat Q400 concept being kicked around in fantasy land, not sure if it'll ever amount to anything. A little over
30 baje427 : Q400's come with noise suppression in fact all Dash 8's delivered after 1997 come with the system.
31 93Sierra : How does the Saab 2000 compare to the q400? While most of the posts on here are talking about larger tprops, what about the likes of a beech 1900 or e
32 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Turbo prop are a great aircraft for the short to medium length stage length flights. The added flight time over a jet is usually very small. Even thou
33 Kent350787 : 2000 was a little faster, but only 58 seats. No idea about CASM or reliability comparison. Will scope clauses have much of an impact on the even larg
34 DashTrash : UASSAirways has scoped out the 400. and more suck. It stayed on the MEL so often at Piedmont they finally deactivated the whole shooting match. It wa
35 luvtrains : The argument for a resurgence of turbo-props can be supported by $160+/bbl oil and the choice in which smaller regional airports will face with retiri
36 suisjes : Yea totally untrue I have worked on turbo props Do-328 Dash-8 SF340's & ATR's they have anti-ice ducts that run through the leading edge
37 gigneil : And on every plane but the Q400 it got inop'ed right away for sucking. The ATR might, but its primary anti ice method is a (brand new and totally red
38 flightsimer : Well for the 1900 at least, you can still get them new... however, you have to order a fleet of them for Beechcraft to restart production (that's com
39 Post contains links and images context : I absolutely agree that stigma remains an important barrier for BDD & ATR to realize their market potential. I've never bordered a Q without heari
40 QXatFAT : The turboprop will not make a resurgence in the US. The airlines that are currently using them will continue but no one will jump into the prop market
41 gigneil : Oh, IDK. I think United is going to probably continue to add turboprops. They have so many markets that the Q400 works well from. NS
42 Boeingorbust : You sure about that? The Q400 is pretty speedy... 360KT cruise speed and has proven to compete with jets like the RJ and even 737 on similar or same
43 columba : A new build aircraft in the size of the Lockheed Electra with two engines that seats could be a good aircraft for the US market
44 RWA380 : From a passenger standpoint, the 328 was an awesome plane to fly in, I'm bummed that I have had exactly 1 experience, with QX flying PDX-GEG, better
45 EY460 : I remember flying several times on Crossair's SAAB 2000 many years ago. They had the Italian nickname "Concordino" (little Concorde). It was a very ni
46 something : I could see a new low cost carrier utilizing ATR 600s on large markets. BUR or LGB to airports in the SAN, SFO, LAS, PDX and SEA area could work. Bost
47 r2rho : Anti-prop prejudices or not, eventually TPs will have to make a "comeback" into the US market, dictated by oil price which will be back at 150$ eventu
48 GCT64 : This is the key issue, and I'm surprised it has taken so long to reach it. There are active threads elsewhere on a.net about communities likely to lo
49 JBo : Interesting that the 1900 is still technically available, that's the first I've heard of that. It makes sense, however, seeing as it shares so much i
50 DashTrash : I was, but I was speaking airline specific. Ducts that are used to route air to the boots. BTW, there are plenty of small jets that use boots as well
51 bjorn14 : Yep. The -600s even have IFE (albeit drop down screens) and Royal Air Moc the launch customer for the 42-600 will even have a 6-seat J class section.
52 hOMsar : I was actually thinking something similar (well, not the 757 reference). Given the lack of in-production smaller turboprops (is there anything betwee
53 Northwest727 : Passengers in the United States want the cheapest possible fares. When oil gets above $100/barrel, then the turboprop makes more sense, regardless of
54 JBo : The tooling and lines for the Saab turboprops have long since been completely dismantled. EMB-120 and Beech have been mentioned in previous posts. Th
55 bjorn14 : Nope. Although technically the MA600 would under 70 seats.
56 msp747 : I am really surprised that Bombardier hasn't offered a Q300NG. I was surprised when I heard they discontinued it. Were airlines really over turboprop
57 ABQopsHP : Expressjet uses the 145 on short legs CRP-IAH 11 times a day during the week. With reduced schedules on Tues/Weds/Sat. The turn time is 25 mins on ea
58 NorthStarDC4M : In Dorniers case the assembly jigs were all sold for an attempted restart, but that never came to be. I don't know if the production line is still in
59 DashTrash : I know. I was at Piedmont for a few years. The -200 has bigger engines, heavier weights and a couple of systems upgrade. We still weren't usually abl
60 baje427 : The reason the Q300 was discontinued was because of lack of demand would the Q400 not be more efficient than an upgraded Q300
61 JoeCanuck : The ATR 42-600 is the most modern 50 seat turboprop available and it isn't exactly flying off of the shelves. I think there are enough 50 seat Tprops
62 LHCVG : Does anyone know if this is practical? Or is it like the 50- vs 70-seat RJ argument, where the 70 seater is marginally more expensive but offers a go
63 rampkontroler : Don't forget, when it comes to size, the Q-400 is already a longer aircraft than both the L-188 Electra and even the 737-500, so if size perception i
64 bond007 : Correct! Is there any 'proof' that this so-called stigma has actually any effect on revenue? In most cases there is not a comparable option of taking
65 gigneil : That's waaaaay too far. NS
66 KarlB737 : Despite oil prices I don't think anything would motivate US airlines to acquire turboprops again despite the fact that some of them are getting rid o
67 something : It depends. BOS-MIA is too far. Washington Area to North Florida isn't. These flights would target the absolute no frills no nothing bare transport t
68 gigneil : Washington to North Florida is 600 miles in the air. Maybe you could.... NS
69 something : It would take the Spirit model to the extreme, but you'd only need to find 70 people for a 100% load factor. I am also positive that, if the price is
70 zippyjet : I thought the mileage from Baltimore to Atlanta is like 700 plus miles. I don't envision turbo props however I wouldn't be surprised to see a resurga
71 Starglider : The Q400 may be longer than the L-188 Electra but it does not have the cabin width (read comfort) or the range of the Electra. I think a propjet simi
72 DashTrash : That is entirely possible with newer technology. The first round of UDFs has issues with blades going out of balance and I think noise. If that can b
73 rdh3e : So all the majors sans Southwest then? Pretty much everybody is in the prop market. So you draw your conclusion after you assume away the single larg
74 KarlB737 : On the contrary what I am simply stating is that whether oil goes up or down the airlines don't seem to be interested in the pursuit of turbo-prop ai
75 Post contains images Viscount724 : Another big difference is the proportion of the overall length that's devoted to the passenger cabin. The L-188 Electra must have had among the highe
76 doug_Or : Delta is out. American is almost out. United has the ex-CO Q400s and a few E-120s. US has Piedmont's DHC-8s.
77 Post contains links rdh3e : So Delta got rid of all their 120s? http://www.delta.com/planning_reserv...ht/aircraft_types_layout/eb-120er/
78 Post contains images zippyjet : How weret the UDF's on speed as compared to standard jets? There are some designs floating around currently like the Eco or Easy Jet.
79 doug_Or : Long ago. SkyWest continues to operate them at risk code sharing with Delta. This is how most of the E-120s are operated with United as well. At this
80 rampkontroler : Good points! I was just comparing relative size. I agree that it would be neat to have a "full sized" modern turboprop. I've always been a bit of a "
81 zippyjet : Me too! As others have mentioned, the flying public has a prejudice against anything with a propeller. The perception being that it's slower, old sch
82 yeelep : Just read that those two aircraft were repainted in the Alaska livery in January.
83 r2rho : Agree. Q300 sales were dead when the line closed, and ATR only sells a handful of -42s per year. The market is strongly biased towards 70 seats. Peop
84 STT757 : UA has the EM2's, DH-8-200s, Q300s, Q400s, and the Beechcraft operating from CLE and Florida.
85 Flight152 : These dash 8's represent a very very small portion of UA's regional feed. They currently have 16 Q200s, 5 Q300s. They also have a few Saab 340's that
86 Post contains images bond007 : I still say, ask all the pax getting on a turboprop, and I guarantee at least 90% of them have no clue what aircraft type it is until the engines sta
87 rdh3e : 30 birds is still not a small fleet, relative to overall it might be, but it's not that small. If you include prorate ops UA is probably up around 10
88 readytotaxi : Is there an honest yardstick out there for the fuel saving of a TP v RJ mile for mile?
89 Post contains links Starglider : How about this article? http://its.berkeley.edu/btl/2011/winter/turboprop Quoting the article above: " Flying between Los Angeles and San Francisco a
90 Viscount724 : Of the 157 ATR orders in 2011 only 13 were -42s.
91 rdh3e : I'm sorry, but that author is so wrong I can't even express my displeasure. Her figures for the 50 are nearly double the actuals and her figures for
92 doug_Or : Yeah, those numbers are just wrong. No idea where the numbers are from (since the webpage won't load for some reason on my computer) If they're walki
93 bjorn14 : Or fed the squirrels/hampsters [biggrin}
94 Post contains links milesrich : Wasn't noise the one of the biggest problems with the UDF, and the fact while its fuel consumption was much less than low bypass engines like the JT-
95 msp747 : While this is the perception, I think it can be changed over time. QX has flown a large turboprop fleet for years and is now 100% prop, and people in
96 rdh3e : THere is no source in the article, but I think they are quoting her dissertation. I can't believe she passed with this hooey. Check out this other qu
97 Goldenshield : I call BS on those RJ numbers. HUGE BS. That number is what the RJ is leaving the GATE with, not what it burns enroute. Heck, the CRJ2's much bigger
98 Post contains images cessna2 : It really is a shame this plane never took off! (no pun intended) This is the plane CEO's say, "Shoulda, coulda, woulda."
99 saab2000 : The SB-20 has not been produced in over a decade. Additionally, at the speeds we fly the CRJ now (econ speeds) the fuel savings bring the burn right
100 Post contains links Starglider : For this research paper she co-authored there are sources: http://uctc.net/research/papers/883.pdf A paper becoming increasingly interesting as fuel
101 rdh3e : That paper reads like a hastily thrown together mish-mash of whatever info happened to be available on the internet without any real data behind it.
102 bond007 : In my experience, most of 'em couldn't give a damn. Those comments are very few and far between. The average passenger cares very little about the ty
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