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Iran Air Aquires Ex-QF 747-300s!  
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 34095 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-up-three-boeing-747-300s-369994/

These three planes were aquired by Al Sayegh in 2010 for Hadj flights and as of lately still carried basic Qantas livery. They originally carried the registrations VH-EBV, -EBW and -EBY and were built in 1986/87.

120 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3606 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33772 times:

That will be interesting, a RR powered 747 in Iran Air fleet.

User currently offlinehaveasafeflight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33611 times:

This is great news for Iran Air as they desperately need to replace their aging fleet of 30 year old Boeing 747-200's & 727's as well as Airbus A300's. I am curious however as to how Iran Air intends to purchase spare parts and customized technical publications from Boeing, in light of the existing sanctions in place. The current sanctions prohibit Boeing from providing support for Iran Air's existing Boeing 747's & 727's, so what makes Iran Air think these 747-300's are going to be any different?

Some anetters may recall last month that Iran Air's CEO Farhad Parvaresh officially announced that 50% of the airline would be sold on the Tehran stock exchange before March 19th 2012:

Iran Air CEO: We Will Become Privatized In 3 Weeks (by haveasafeflight Feb 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)

So far it appears that the planned privatization has failed to materialize and the airline remains a national asset. The timing of the acquisition of these 747-300's is interesting however as it comes within approximately 1 week of the planned date of the privatization.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8344 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33429 times:
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The end of the shah era 747SP's at Iran Air. Amazing how long they have been able to keep flying the 1970's 747 P & W fleet they have.

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8322 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33385 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 2):
I am curious however as to how Iran Air intends to purchase spare parts and customized technical publications from Boeing, in light of the existing sanctions in place.

The same way they get the planes in the first place? Through an intermediary third party?


User currently offlineGCPET From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2012, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33282 times:

How much price is there between a late build 743 and a used early build 744? Maybe Iran could acquire some of the old Qantas 744's in a few years?

GCPET



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
User currently offlinehaveasafeflight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33083 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 5):
The same way they get the planes in the first place? Through an intermediary third party?

That might work for the spare parts, but not for the technical manuals (aircraft maintenance manual, wiring diagram manual etc). Boeing does not re-sell customized manuals to third parties or intermediaries as the manuals are customized by Boeing according to the serial numbers of the airplanes and supplied only to the aircraft operator. I understand that Boeing (like airbus) keeps records of all the serial numbers and respective operators, so there is no way that a third party/intermediary could obtain such data.

So without the correct manuals how are Iran Air planning on keeping these aircraft safe to fly?

First pics of Iran Air's new bird in Tehran Airport:

http://www.iranairaviation.com/AviationDetails.aspx?ID=1191


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8322 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32823 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 7):
That might work for the spare parts, but not for the technical manuals (aircraft maintenance manual, wiring diagram manual etc). Boeing does not re-sell customized manuals to third parties or intermediaries as the manuals are customized by Boeing according to the serial numbers of the airplanes and supplied only to the aircraft operator.

I'm not familiar with this sort of thing but wouldn't the manuals accompany the airplane, wherever it goes? It would make sense that when QF sold the airplane, the manuals went with it. Isn't that how it works?


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32747 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
I'm not familiar with this sort of thing but wouldn't the manuals accompany the airplane, wherever it goes? It would make sense that when QF sold the airplane, the manuals went with it. Isn't that how it works?

It makes no sense to sell a plane without necessary paperworks/manuals. Its potentially dangerous, and I would even argue, illegal. Isnt that the reason Olympic Airways has such trouble selling their A340s?


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32418 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 7):
First pics of Iran Air's new bird in Tehran Airport:

http://www.iranairaviation.com/Aviat...=1191

Interesting. Wonder why the plane carries the Samair logo, an operator with (again, ex-QF) 737s registered in Slovakia.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 10):
I kind of liked seeing these oldies still in active service. I wish they keep them alive a while longer.
Iran, it seems, has become quite handy at servicing and maintaining older aircrafts, civil and military, even despite the lack of support from the manufacturers. I know it's born from the need, but it's quite remarkable.
Any idea where they'll fly them to? Are the -100 going out?

One can only admire Iran for being able to keep the old 747s in the air with no accident. Iran Air only has one 747-100. Last photo of the plane in action is from Moscow last summer.


User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32278 times:

PTVs in Y for Iran Air then?

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32285 times:

I freely admit to being ill-informed, but Australia publicly supports whatever UN sanctions are in force and will usually (and with embarrassment, slavishly) adopt US policy in international relations. More importantly, Australia has a treaty with the US that means that Australia must follow the US on intellectual rights and even without that requirement, obliges Australia to observe restrictions on the export of US technologies normally attached to the purchase of US goods.

This leads me to ask whether the aircraft were sold through third parties who may have turned a blind eye to the various treaties in force.


User currently offlinehaveasafeflight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 30323 times:

Quoting na (Reply 9):
It makes no sense to sell a plane without necessary paperworks/manuals. Its potentially dangerous, and I would even argue, illegal. Isnt that the reason Olympic Airways has such trouble selling their A340s?

I understand that Olympic's manuals are outdated by some years.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
I'm not familiar with this sort of thing but wouldn't the manuals accompany the airplane, wherever it goes?

To address your point, the manuals may very well accompany the airplane, however those manuals are valid only so long as the manufacturer, i.e. Boeing does not issue revisions. Sooner or later Boeing will issue mandatory revisions to the manuals which will make all of the previous manuals obsolete and therefore by definition unsafe for continued use.

The point I was making above was that no "front company" or intermediary will be able to obtain from Boeing the customized manuals required for the safe operation of Iran Air's 747-300's as these manuals are only ever supplied to the aircraft operator. That is a problem for Iran Air as Boeing won't sell them due to sanctions. I think this could give rise to serious safety risks if Iran Air continues to operate these airplanes without the mandatory updates to the Boeing manuals.

Forgive me for quoting myself, but if Iran Air are unable to obtain technical and maintenance manual updates from Boeing the following question needs to be asked:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 7):

So without the correct (updated) manuals how are Iran Air planning on keeping these aircraft safe to fly?


[Edited 2012-03-27 13:09:39]

User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3571 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 30091 times:

But Iran is still flying 747SPs and 747-100s. I guess someone must update these manuals too, right? So where is the difference to newer 743s?

User currently offlinehaveasafeflight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 29043 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
I guess someone must update these manuals too, right?

Actually I do not believe that is the case.

The models you mention are a different case because they have been originally supplied to Iran Air by Boeing, and Iran Air have come to know these aircraft inside out over a period of 30+ years operating them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that they don't need the latest versions of the manuals - as standard observation of air safety codes the latest manual revisions available must always be used, but the fact is that Iran Air are unable to buy them from Boeing and are probably getting by on their years of expertise with these particular models (727's as well) and observation of important service bulletins. I understand that one of the key reasons for Iran Air's Boeing fleet being blacklisted from EU airspace is because their manuals are severely outdated:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-on-mro-and-airworthiness-344160/
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ns-iran-air-a320s-and-747s-344095/

The 747-300 is a different ballgame however as Iran Air has no experience whatsoever in maintaining and operating this particular model and is unable to receive support from Boeing to assist with becoming acquainted with the model

As stated previously, Boeing does not sell customized manuals updates to third parties, only to the aircraft operator - so therefore it is not possible that "someone" is doing updates.


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28247 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 5):
How much price is there between a late build 743 and a used early build 744? Maybe Iran could acquire some of the old Qantas 744's in a few years?

This week's Trade-APlane had a 747-200 Combi that needs heavy maintenance available for 2.5 million US. There was also a 747-400 for 25 million US. I do not recall where it was in the maintenance cycle.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 28211 times:

Quoting GCPET (Reply 6):
How much price is there between a late build 743 and a used early build 744? Maybe Iran could acquire some of the old Qantas 744's in a few years?

I'd be curious of that too.


User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 27363 times:

Boeing issues various manuals relating to the plane's mechanical/structural being. Manuals like the aircraft maintenance manual (AMM), illustrated parts catalog (AIPC), structural repair manual, wiring diagrams, etc. The manuals are specific to the plane family (ie. the ones I deal with at my airline are for all 737NGs). However, the manuals are tailored by leasing company. We have 5-6 different AMM cds for the B737NG as we have planes owned by various leasing companies. To me, they are the same stuff but some have different components, parts from different vendors (ie. Honeywell avionics package vs. Rockwell Collins, etc). I'm guessing Iran Air will either use any manual applicable to a B747-300 they can obtain whether or not it's current.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 26954 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
I freely admit to being ill-informed, but Australia publicly supports whatever UN sanctions are in force and will usually (and with embarrassment, slavishly) adopt US policy in international relations. More importantly, Australia has a treaty with the US that means that Australia must follow the US on intellectual rights and even without that requirement, obliges Australia to observe restrictions on the export of US technologies normally attached to the purchase of US goods.

This leads me to ask whether the aircraft were sold through third parties who may have turned a blind eye to the various treaties in force.

Does QF get a say in this transaction?

Or have the aircraft already been sold by QF to some 3rd party (leasing company?) rendering QF with no say in this transaction whatsoever?


User currently offlinevaus77w From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 26559 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 19):
The point I was making above was that no "front company" or intermediary will be able to obtain from Boeing the customized manuals required for the safe operation of Iran Air's 747-300's as these manuals are only ever supplied to the aircraft operator. That is a problem for Iran Air as Boeing won't sell them due to sanctions. I think this could give rise to serious safety risks if Iran Air continues to operate these airplanes without the mandatory updates to the Boeing manuals.

Forgive me for quoting myself, but if Iran Air are unable to obtain technical and maintenance manual updates from Boeing the following question needs to be asked:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 7):

So without the correct (updated) manuals how are Iran Air planning on keeping these aircraft safe to fly?

But Mahan operate 744's, wouldn't they have the same issue?


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4470 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 26359 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 14):

The 747-300 is a different ballgame however as Iran Air has no experience whatsoever in maintaining and operating this particular model and is unable to receive support from Boeing to assist with becoming acquainted with the model

I defer to 747FE and other experts on this but I believe the -300 is significantly common with the -200, apart from in this case, the engines but Iran Air seems very proficient at keeping anything airworthy !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13030 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 25205 times:
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Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):

That will be interesting, a RR powered 747 in Iran Air fleet.

That is interesting. Iran Air knows the JT9D. The RB211 is a very different animal.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 12):
To address your point, the manuals may very well accompany the airplane, however those manuals are valid only so long as the manufacturer, i.e. Boeing does not issue revisions.

Are there really going to be that many revisions for the 743 going forward? There is certainly risk, but for the airframe, I think Iran Air will be ok. The major risk is the engines. Which is about half the maintenance work...

Quoting flylku (Reply 15):
This week's Trade-APlane had a 747-200 Combi that needs heavy maintenance available for 2.5 million US. There was also a 747-400 for 25 million US.

A 744 in need of heavy maintenance was as low as $5million for the Air New Zealand 744 scrapped in mid-2009.


The issue would be how would Iran Air get a hold of a number of them?


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineB747FE From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2004, 230 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 24628 times:

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 6):
Boeing does not re-sell customized manuals to third parties or intermediaries as the manuals are customized by Boeing according to the serial numbers of the airplanes and supplied only to the aircraft operator.

Yes they do, although it's a very expensive service and as you said is probably not available for IR.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
I'm not familiar with this sort of thing but wouldn't the manuals accompany the airplane, wherever it goes? It would make sense that when QF sold the airplane, the manuals went with it. Isn't that how it works?

That's correct!

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
So where is the difference to newer 743s?

There isn't significant differences, other than some upgrades in the cockpit and systems.
Nothing special.

Quoting haveasafeflight (Reply 14):
The 747-300 is a different ballgame however as Iran Air has no experience whatsoever in maintaining and operating this particular model and is unable to receive support from Boeing to assist with becoming acquainted with the model

Seems to me they are very acquainted with the airframe already, having operated -100/-200 & SP for more than 30 years or so. Again, there is no significant differences between -100/200/300; SR & SP.
The power plant on the other hand is a different story.

Quoting vhtje (Reply 18):
Does QF get a say in this transaction?

No.
They were retired from service with QF and ferried to Marana January 2009 IIRC.
I believe shortly afterwards they were sold.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
Are there really going to be that many revisions for the 743 going forward?

Not many that I know of.


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
The major risk is the engines. Which is about half the maintenance work...

  


Regards,
B747FE.



"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2923 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 24041 times:

Are they going to be operating these aircraft, or just using them for spares?


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlinehaveasafeflight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 22752 times:

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 19):
But Mahan operate 744's, wouldn't they have the same issue?

Mahan is in fact experiencing serious problems maintaining their 747-400's. It is standard practice to always only use the most recent revision of the manufactures manuals, especially the maintenance manual - so the fact that Mahan Air like Iran Air is unable to obtain these from Boeing certainly adds to their maintenance troubles. I heard a rumor recently that Mahan Air they are looking to get rid of their 747-400's - looks like they bit of more than they could chew...

Quoting B747FE (Reply 22):
Yes they do, although it's a very expensive service and as you said is probably not available for IR.

Are you suggesting that Boeing sells customized manuals to third parties? It would be interesting to see evidence of this

Quoting B747FE (Reply 22):
Seems to me they are very acquainted with the airframe already, having operated -100/-200 & SP for more than 30 years or so. Again, there is no significant differences between -100/200/300; SR & SP.
The power plant on the other hand is a different story.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):
I defer to 747FE and other experts on this but I believe the -300 is significantly common with the -200, apart from in this case, the engines but Iran Air seems very proficient at keeping anything airworthy !
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 17):
I'm guessing Iran Air will either use any manual applicable to a B747-300 they can obtain whether or not it's current.

Unfortunately the above quotes miss the point I have been making which is regardless of the amount of experience an airline has operating a particular model of aircraft, it is standard good practice to always use the latest version of the manufacturers manuals. When the manufacturer issues a revision to a manual, it is mandatory to always use the latest version as critical updates need to be performed. To not do so represents a very serious risk to the safety of the aircraft. So in essence, if you don't have the latest manuals for the airplane you shouldn't be operating it.


25 RIXrat : Not to change the subject, but who issues maintenance manual updates for the F100? Fokker no longer exists, yet there are loads of them still flying a
26 Post contains links and images haveasafeflight : That would be Fokker Services: http://www.myfokkerfleet.com Boeing offers an identical service: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/avi...ance-manuals/c
27 tommytoyz : Well, Iran can obtain copies of manuals and important information for their Boeing aircraft by bribing someone at a current operator of the same model
28 haveasafeflight : I don't mean to be rude but it seems that you haven't read the information on Boeing's website: Suggesting that bribing someone to provide manuals be
29 lollomz : I can't see the link.... can you please post a picture? Thanks.
30 penguins : I think that is irrevalent. Think off all the plane crashes over the years and I bet you that 99% of them had proper paperwork and crew training for
31 na : Possible, even likely, as I think the mileage (Flight hours/cycles) of Iran Airs older 747s might actually be lower than that of these almost 10 year
32 JAGflyer : LOL MyFokkerFleet. Sounds like a complete rip of MyBoeingFleet. I use MBF daily (I am an admin for my airline) and it's truly remarkable what kind of
33 Post contains images haveasafeflight : Here you go That's an interesting question, does anyone have a definitive answer?
34 chieft : I guess they will operate it as the spare part possibilities are very limited. Especially the RR engines are useless for them as they have never opera
35 Post contains images haveasafeflight : If Iran Air are in fact planning on operating these, why didn't they just buy aircraft with lower hours/cycles? as na said: So if Iran Air's existing
36 na : Its very hard for Iran Air to source aircraft. I bet Iran Air would love to buy a handful of fairly used 744s if the only could.
37 haveasafeflight : Fair enough...It just seems odd for them to have bought airplanes that have a potentially shorter operational lifespan than their existing 747-100/20
38 Post contains links lollomz : Thank you for the pictures, here are two more with the Burkina Faso registrations: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boein...d=3be5d353826f6b5578a41a9d5
39 AirbusA6 : Saudia's 743s are RR powered so there is some expertise of the type in the region
40 AA909 : Saudi Arabia and Iran may be geographically close, but that's about where the closeness ends ... so this is pretty irrelevant, no offense intended.[E
41 Spacepope : True, but unless they got a bunch of RR spares from somewhere, they're going to need to cannibalize 1 maybe 2 aircraft to keep the third oddball aliv
42 haveasafeflight : Any thoughts on why they didn't purchase P&W equipped 747's to maintain continuity with their existing fleet?
43 airbuseric : S5-SAW is already having maintenance at IKA, this is ex VH-EBW
44 haveasafeflight : OK that suggests that they will operate them. Still the RR engines are likely to prove challenging from an overhaul / maintenance point of view. Sure
45 na : If they could have find one, yes! I bet they have searched a lot.
46 KFlyer : IIRC, a fairly old 744 now trades for around USD15m.. This seems to be the average price for 85-90 vintage, but I could be wrong too..
47 na : You wouldnt find a 1985 744 for a billion as the first five or so were built in 1988! But for a 1990-built one you are about right with your pricetag
48 Spacepope : No idea, but that's a very good question. We'll just have to see how this plays out. Are there any PW non-freighters available on the market? I know
49 Post contains links haveasafeflight : Would it be economically feasible for Iran Air to convert these from the RR equipped engines to GE CF6-50E2's as used by Mahan Air on their 747-300's?
50 SXDFC : I remember reading somewhere that IR can lease airplanes despite the sanctions, however they prefer to own their planes so that they could do the MX w
51 Spacepope : One other possibility is that they need the -100 and -200s as spares sources for the 747 tankers used by the air force.
52 haveasafeflight : That's not beyond the realms of probability, but still doesn't explain why they bought 26 year old aircraft with fewer remaining cycles than the airc
53 IR800 : Not much relevant to the topic, but their problem is embargo, not maintenance. Anyway, IR (and other Iranian airlines) don't have so many choices, sa
54 rdh3e : I know in one of your posts you said that boeing tailors every manual specific to serial number. But how different are the manuals really? I mean to
55 JAGflyer : The manuals are specific to the operator/leasing company. For example, my airline has a fleet of 23 planes all leased from 4-5 different companies (r
56 bennett123 : I suspect Iran Air will to take what they can get. No point ringing Boeing.
57 B747FE : Embargo issues aside off course, Boeing could provide manual update services to the current owner of those airframes provided the owner pays the fees
58 Post contains links haveasafeflight : You need to understand that the maintenance troubles experienced by Iranian airlines are inextricably linked with the embargoes i.e. cause and effect
59 a300 : I doubt that. The air force's 100s have very low hours on them despite that there are very early 1970s vintage (one was actually built in 1969)! It s
60 bennett123 : So which ones have been parted out so far?.
61 kaitak : Just a question that comes to mind about these aircraft; if they were sourced and obtained illegally, i.e. in contravention of international (not just
62 haveasafeflight : You hit the nail on the head. I think there is a real risk of these airplanes winding up blacklisted alongside Iran Air's older vintage 747's as a re
63 rutankrd : The answer to that is yes they could be seized by bailiffs acting on behalf of the USA or EU. Mahran lost a few B744 they were scheduled to get via B
64 na : A shame that one of those that didnt reach Iran has been scrapped because of the sanctions already.
65 rb211-524h : But Pakistan has a number of 747-300s with RR engines (ex-CX birds) so I'm guessing they can get the manuals and expertise from there?
66 kaitak : But why would PIA risk this? Looks like the vice on Iran is going to keep tightening; Iran Air is probably going to hobble on as best they can, but i
67 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Welcome the new 747-300s to the Iran Air fleet. I hope they will do some good years of service for the airline. I would very much like to be "Last to
68 haveasafeflight : I totally agree. What would PIA's upside be that would outweigh the risks of violating the sanctions against Iran Air? Unlike Iran Air, PIA maintains
69 solarflyer22 : Ideally yes, but in Africa and Iran this probably happens fairly often. Yes it does. And one of these 747s might go down because of it. I can confirm
70 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : The UAE/Dubai want to keep trading with Iran despite the sanctions so I suppose that they will be able to provide spare parts and maintenance to Iran
71 Post contains links haveasafeflight : Looks like Saudia is phasing it's 747-300's out to be replaced with 777-300ER's, so not sure how much assistance they could provide. However like PIA
72 AirbusA6 : Any assistance wouldn't be official, there must be a massive market in secret parts and assistance. I'm sure Saudi Arabia wouldn't give Iran help any
73 rutankrd : Saudi are NO friends of the Iranian Regimes or Shia's (look at Bahrain) in general They are a leading advocate of the sanctions. No help will come fro
74 IR800 : Right. But I mean that their problem is directly linked to embargo. AFAIK a British court adjudicated on their confiscation because of the violation
75 haveasafeflight : When they can't but directly from Boeing & Airbus it is inevitable that spares will be obtained from "unofficial" sources - that's nothing new. O
76 Post contains links haveasafeflight : Iran Air's Public Relations Manager, Shahrokh Noushabadi, recently denied that Iran Air has purchased these airplanes: http://isna.ir/en/news/91011502
77 fly707 : Why they don't buy new Boeing or Airbus ??
78 FRAspotter : You're kidding right? They can't buy new (or even used) directly from the US or other allied countries due to the trade embargo's already in place. T
79 N1120A : Yep. And IR has kept those airplanes in admirable condition. Iran Air has kept a lot of aircraft safe to fly for a long time. Lots of commonality wit
80 Post contains links haveasafeflight : Exactly. Interestingly the head of Iran's CAO, Reza Nakhjavani, recently announced that the country's entire fleet is going to be replaced - I'll bel
81 Post contains images 9MMPQ : Who says IR doesn't have the manuals ? Any aircraft that is sold is accompanied by its manuals, maintenance logs etc etc etc. Any sale without such do
82 Post contains links haveasafeflight : As far as I am aware no one has suggested during the course of this thread that Iran Air doesn't have manuals for these airplanes. I don't mean to be
83 chieft : I think that is exactly the point! Thanks! The engines could become the weakest point: No experience, no parts. They must build up a complete new spa
84 Fabo : It was quoted as operated by Al Sayegh before, that is Sayegh Aviation Group, that is Sam Air International parent company. btw. I think it was not Q
85 Post contains images 9MMPQ : Not being rude here either but please bare with me for a moment as i thing we have 2 things going on... 1st .. the talk about customization is about c
86 haveasafeflight : As far as I am aware, Australian Airlines only ever operated 767-300ER's so which airplanes are you referring to?
87 Fabo : The 737 of Sam Air of Slovakia. It has a customer code of Australian, not Qantas. Maybe they were called different then, Trans Australia or something
88 haveasafeflight : By default, the airworthiness directives or service bulletins which are applicable to an operators airplane serial numbers are incorporated by Boeing
89 skyhawkmatthew : There have been two different "Australian Airlines". The second was Qantas' leisure-carrier operation of the early-mid 2000s that did indeed only ope
90 haveasafeflight : I had forgotten about them, thanks for clearing that up.
91 Post contains links and images garpd : Regardless how they got the 743s, how they're getting the log books, or how they'll maintain them, they have them. I think once painted, they'll be ra
92 globalflyer777 : Aesthetics are one thing, the safety of the passengers and crews is completely another, and IMHO a far more important aspect.
93 garpd : Of course, where do I state it is not?
94 globalflyer777 : Your post appears to show a bias towards aesthetics vs maintenance, which in my mind translates into aesthetics vs safety: A fancy paint job is of li
95 garpd : No, my comments are in response to the discussions as to how they got the aircraft, how they'll get the manuals, etc. Do not presume to teach me what
96 Post contains images globalflyer777 : I think I see the logic - substitute the most important part of aircraft operations, i.e. the part involving the safety of the lives of the passenger
97 Roseflyer : The manuals are typically required to be followed by regulatory agencies to maintain the safety and airworthiness of the airplane. If an airplane is
98 Post contains links and images globalflyer777 : Totally agree with you. The regulator in question concerning these airplanes is the Civil Aviation Organization of Iran (CAO) headed by Reza Nakhjava
99 garpd : What does chewing over the same things achieve here? Discuss the safety aspects by all means, but nothing you say here will change a thing. IranAir s
100 einsteinboricua : While I don't think politics should toy around with the safety of people from another country, I have to wonder whether the third party is Australian
101 globalflyer777 : What makes you think I want to prevent anything apart from an air accident? I am actually of the belief that Iran is chronically short of airplanes a
102 Post contains links and images haveasafeflight : Interestingly Al Sayegh is now denying all links to the deal with Iran Air : http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/uae...ium=organic&utm_campaign=news
103 Post contains images lightsaber : I've been following this thread without posting more. I really think the airframe could be kept flying safely. As I noted before, I see the risk in t
104 B747FE : Really?? "generic in nature" Actually SB's are very specific to individual airframes, which is why they are identified by customer code, group &
105 9MMPQ : I'm just really wondering about the airframe itself as it's been around for some time now. I've never brought up the engines, in fact i'm not even go
106 haveasafeflight : Customized updates to the airplane's manuals are the superior solution with regards to maintaining the airplanes to Boeing's latest recommendations (
107 SXDFC : With all due respect, you are blowing this way out of proportion... All he did was create a drawing of what it would look like. Not once did he menti
108 bennett123 : IMO, Iran Air has three options; 1. Make do and mend with whatever A and B is available. 2. Buy Russian. 3. Close down. I would tend to favour option
109 bennett123 : Actually, for short haul their is another option. 4.Rekkof, (seems to have gone very quiet).
110 Post contains links and images haveasafeflight : Not sure I understand Interestingly Iran Air is the largest foreign (non-Russian) customer for the Tupolev 204 with 30 on order. Over the years there
111 imiakhtar : You're still missing the point. The fact that these 747 are the -300 variants and not the -200 does not matter from a maintenance standpoint and as s
112 haveasafeflight : If you had read some of the earlier posts you would understand the fundamental point that: The fact that you are inferring that a 2% technical differ
113 bennett123 : As you know, Fokker closed down some years ago. Ever since, there have been proposals from a firm called Rekkof, (Fokker in reverse) to re start produ
114 bennett123 : Sorry, I meant a copy of the plans.
115 Post contains images haveasafeflight : That's an interesting thought, and perhaps a few years a go a real possibility, but given the recent ramp up in sanctions against Iran I'm not sure t
116 Post contains links and images globalflyer777 : Looks like he got replaced first : Reza Nakhjavani Dismissed As Iran CAO Chief (by globalflyer777 Apr 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)
117 Post contains images haveasafeflight : I think it's safe to say that the Saudi's will not be providing Iran with parts for these 747-300's:
118 bennett123 : Do you know the reg of the SV B747 or when the picture was taken?.
119 Post contains links and images bgm : That's a 747-300 TF-ATJ owned by Air Atlanta Icelandic which operated for Saudia. View Large View MediumPhoto © Bobby Allison
120 Post contains links haveasafeflight : That is correct, however Saudi Arabian Airlines also owns a number of their own 747-300's: http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/S...Arabian%20Airlines-
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