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St. Cloud State Aviation Program Closure  
User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

The SCSU aviation program has recently been shut down to new admission, but I am part of a movement to save it and by the way the president of my university didn't even follow proper procedures for shutting down the program. I run a website that's dedicated to expose the misinformation and give out the facts regarding the aviation program at St. Cloud State: www.savescsuaviation.com/

[Edited 2012-03-27 22:26:13]

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear this.
I remember back in 1974 or so SCSU hosted a NIFA meet at the St. Cloud airport. We came up from Louisiana and had a fun time. It was very well organized too.


User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

SCSU is the only accredited aviation program in MN. Did you know that Menards which is a hardware chain store company based in Eau Claire, Wisconsin hires pilots exclusively from SCSU for their flight department?

User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Sorry, UND is just too much of a powerhouse

Peace   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Yes, it is true that UND is a powerhouse, but they're not cheap. Both SCSU and UND have an ATC program and both are accredited. An ATC lab fee at UND is $2,000, but at SCSU, it's less than a tenth of that. When someone wants to become a pilot and they go through UND, they will graduate with over $100,000 in debt. On the other hand, when someone wants to become a pilot and goes through St. Cloud State, they will graduate with less than $50,000 in debt. I know someone that transferred from UND to SCSU because they couldn't afford to continue with their flight training at UND since it got too expensive for them. And if you haven't already heard, MN is in danger of losing their last two 4-year aviation programs. MSU-Mankato and SCSU both got shut down, but MSU-Mankato got a three year reprieve. MSU-Mankato is not accredited. Where will MN and WI high school students be able to go since soon there will be no more aviation programs in the state of MN if they want to go to a school that has an aviation program that is cost affordable?

[Edited 2012-03-28 01:22:28]

[Edited 2012-03-28 01:23:56]

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting nph1988 (Reply 4):
Where will MN and WI high school students be able to go since soon there will be no more aviation programs in the state of MN if they want to go to a school that has an aviation program that is cost affordable?

Did SCSU close their air traffic control program as well? The whole shebang?


User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

Go to any 4 year school and then do all your flying at an FBO. You are far better having a degree from a school that is not Aviation related and all your ratings, than 100k plus in debt and a degree in just Commercial Aviation. This is coming from a 5 year regional FO with 100k of student loans. Don't drink the UND koolaide and pay their ungodly fees.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3308 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting nph1988 (Reply 4):
Yes, it is true that UND is a powerhouse, but they're not cheap. Both SCSU and UND have an ATC program and both are accredited. An ATC lab fee at UND is $2,000, but at SCSU, it's less than a tenth of that.

So is UND overcharging, or is SCSU undercharging?

Quoting nph1988 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, when someone wants to become a pilot and goes through St. Cloud State, they will graduate with less than $50,000 in debt.

Hearing this, it sounds like the business model for the SCSU program is broken. If they are substantially undercharging for the program, then other departments are subsidizing it. Sounds like the board decided to stop the losses. Today economy means budgets have to be cut. Budget cuts mean that departments that can't sustain themselves will be eliminated.

I applaud you interest in keeping the program going, but you may need to help the school find the revenue it needs to justify keeping it.


User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

HPRamper, yes SCSU closed the whole Aviation Department

User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 6):
Don't drink the UND koolaide and pay their ungodly fees.

The costs of flying is not going to be cheap no matter where you go. That is not something you can change. However, look at the difference between costs between UND and Embry-Riddle. UND is significantly cheaper!

Just look at the differences in Tuition:

UND - http://und.edu/finance-operations/st...account-services/tuition-rates.cfm
Embry - http://news.erau.edu/media-resources...ts-figures/tuition-fees/index.html
St. Cloud State - http://www.stcloudstate.edu/continuingstudies/distance/tuition.asp

Embry = $1,195 per credit hour
UND = $295.49 per credit hour for ND residents (not hard to get... I'm from NH and i have in state) and $698.61 per credit hour for out of state
St. Cloud State = $289.55 per credit hour

So yes, St. Cloud St. is cheaper than UND, but UND is significantly cheaper than the other powerhouse of Embry.

Peace   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 6):
Go to any 4 year school and then do all your flying at an FBO. You are far better having a degree from a school that is not Aviation related and all your ratings, than 100k plus in debt and a degree in just Commercial Aviation

  

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 9):
So yes, St. Cloud St. is cheaper than UND, but UND is significantly cheaper than the other powerhouse of Embry.

Of course ERAU is not in either North Dakota or Minnesota. That justifies some premium.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Yes, but the difference is that at UND you are paying 230 an hour for a plane and instructor, and at an FBO yoy are paying probably 150 to 170 an hour. That cost of $50 an hour over 250 hours is $12k. That is on low side of savings. But the key to my first point was the emphasis on getting a degree OUTSIDE of aviation. This job is much too fragile to not have something else to fall back on to.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7811 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

I applaud you for wanting to save your program but there are outside realities that are coming into play that you may not be seeing.

First is budgetary. If other programs are heavily subsidizing the flight program and money is tight that creates problems. It is nice to have a cheap option, but if it isn't sustainable.

Second, and probably a big one, are new federal financial aid rules regarding gainful employment. This was largely targeted at for-profit schools that abused financial aid, but in an industry like aviation gainful employment as a pilot is still really though. The pilot shortage that has been talked about for years still hasn't materialized. And I suspect in part of the schools decision to close the program is heavily weighted on this.



Finally I am increasingly skeptical of aviation (professional pilot) degrees at the Bachelor's level. I've looked at the required courses at ERAU and I cannot for the life of me justify that as a BA/BS degree. And employers seem to think the same with plenty of sage advice from other professional pilots that you really should get a degree in anything but aviation if you want a future.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

The program was not closed because of budgetary reasons, but because of political reasons. The university does NOT subsidize the airport. There's not a single program that subsidizes the aviation program. The flight training for students is contracted out to a small business called Wright Aero, which is the flight training provider for SCSU students. The program lost less money than other programs, here's a link to that: http://www.scribd.com/doc/85793545/D...arts-Save-Aviation-Updated-Version
How can a president of a university justify keeping a Masters in Social Responsibility open while closing an Accredited aviation program?


User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

I stand corrected with the costs of UND vs SCSU. Flight training+tuition at UND is at around 140,000 for four years, while SCSU is about $70,000.

[Edited 2012-03-28 14:00:21]

User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Like somebody else mentioned, MSU got shut down a few years ago, but came back with brand new planes through a new contracted FBO. Where the hell was the Diamond when I went to MSU??  


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting nph1988 (Reply 4):
An ATC lab fee at UND is $2,000, but at SCSU, it's less than a tenth of that. When someone wants to become a pilot and they go through UND, they will graduate with over $100,000 in debt.

I would be interested to see where you get the 100,000 in debt number. I go to UND and for Private, Instrument, Multi Engine, CFI, and Commercial I am quoted as paying 60,000. That number is even a little high when you factor in the fudge factor. UND is pricey but even when you factor in tuition my costs are more than half of what Embry told me I'd pay. It's not cheap, but the equipment is awesome. Also with the ATC lab fee how big is their program? We have a lot of facilities at UND that aren't found at many other places. Not trying to blow us up as being the best just trying to get a comparison.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

From what I read here in the local newspaper as Daniel Webster College was being closed, parents and students are catching on to the fact that it doesn't make sense for the student to get six figures into debt to get a job that pays peanuts. In the case of DWC, it was bought by a for-profit institution, and they saw it made no sense to stay in the aviation education business.

Avgas is $$$ these days, maintenance is going up and up, training aircraft are very expensive to run.

Programs are closing down left and right.

Clearly there is a wave of retirements coming on in commercial aviation, but it seems the training infrastructure will be gone when that finally happens.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Clearly there is a wave of retirements coming on in commercial aviation, but it seems the training infrastructure will be gone when that finally happens.

There are plenty of pilots out there who will get jobs or get better jobs when that pilot shortage that is always five years away actually happens. Plus there are plenty of instructors and FBOs out there that would be more than happy to take your money and make you a pilot.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2624 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 16):
I would be interested to see where you get the 100,000 in debt number. I go to UND and for Private, Instrument, Multi Engine, CFI, and Commercial I am quoted as paying 60,000.

But those 60k is not including tuition right? Either way, both programs are a pretty penny.



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlinen6238p From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

I met a few of the SCSU students and instructors at Oshkosh a few years ago. All very nice people and I wish the best for the everyone involved with this program. Any university flight program closing is a shame. There are facility, families, students, etc that are directly impacted by such events and I never wish this on any school. Whether or not you think it makes a difference what name is on your school, know that every airline has students from hundreds, maybe thousands of different schools. Your schools name is not going to hold your hand in that interview and that school name isn't going to remind you what memory items there are when you puke an engine after V1.


To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2604 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 19):
But those 60k is not including tuition right? Either way, both programs are a pretty penny.

No it does not. You do have me there. I was looking at flight costs. My out of state tuition is higher. But like mentioned above it takes nothing to get in state.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

Flight training is between 65k and 70k alone at UND. Only MN and ND residents will graduate with less than 100k in debt. Everyone else, on the other hand will. Now, these are the correct numbers.
Tuition & Mandatory Fees
Academic Year 2011-2012
These figures are averages* for a full academic year (Fall & Spring semesters).
Undergraduate
ND Resident $7,092
Minnesota Reciprocity $ 7,716
Non Resident $ 16,767
Contiguous $ 9,989
WUE/MHEC (MSEP) $ 9,989

http://und.edu/finance-operations/st...account-services/tuition-rates.cfm
http://und.edu/admissions/financial-...ected-flight-course-costs-1112.pdf

[Edited 2012-03-29 00:36:47]

[Edited 2012-03-29 00:39:06]

[Edited 2012-03-29 01:04:14]

User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3680 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

Quoting nph1988 (Reply 13):
How can a president of a university justify keeping a Masters in Social Responsibility open while closing an Accredited aviation program?

I am guessing this is a inter-departmental program so they're using professors are already on campus with the university charging bookoo bucks for a grad program.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinenph1988 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

Bjorn14, I am quite sure that they are charging a lot for the students in that program. It's costing the university over $1,000,000 in salaries alone.

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