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SQ Reintroducing Y Class On A345 US Nonstops...  
User currently offlinehodja From Singapore, joined Apr 2004, 91 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 21620 times:
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http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ngapore/Story/STIStory_782957.html

I always felt these all-business class routes were untenable....

Old thread:

SIA Reduces Non-stop SIN To US Flts (by LondonCity Jan 25 2009 in Civil Aviation)

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 21547 times:

Well, I can understand the need and why but, ouch, I wouldn't fancy that myself. I've flown 14 hours on SQ in Y (and it was very good) but even I was looking forward to the hour or so stopover in HKG to be able stretch out a bit. Another 4.5 hours would be tough! But will it be the "executive economy" they had previously which had quite a bit more space than regular Y.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3277 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 21455 times:

In order to keep the flights from taking restrictions, I'd expect you can't add too many Y seats on the A345, it's a bit heavy.


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineblink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 21387 times:

Will this be a true Y-class product like their 77Ws and A380s, or their original A345 product that looked and felt very much like an economy plus?


Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineHKG212 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2008, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 21366 times:

Quoting hodja (Thread starter):
I always felt these all-business class routes were untenable....

Indeed. I always thought these were vanity routes. The O/D between Singapore and New York / Los Angeles cannot possibly sustain this, and SIN is not a good hub location for those cities except for a limited number of Southeast Asia destinations, and possibly Perth.


User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 20918 times:

I always thought these flights were doing well. I used to think that these ultra-long hauls wouldn't be sustainable with Y with the fuel-costs as high as they are now.

But I guess it works the other way too then. One empty J seat on this flight (1-2-1 configuration) could have had 2 to 2.5 Y seats and if one of them was filled the airline would have earned at least a little there.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 20797 times:

Quoting blink182 (Reply 3):
or their original A345 product that looked and felt very much like an economy plus?

It indeed was a Y+ product with 2-3-2 config with a 37" pitch and a bit of a lounge/bar to stretch ones legs.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3277 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20685 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 6):
Quoting blink182 (Reply 3):or their original A345 product that looked and felt very much like an economy plus?

It indeed was a Y+ product with 2-3-2 config with a 37" pitch and a bit of a lounge/bar to stretch ones legs.

This what TG did on their A345's, J & Y+, unlike BKK, I thought SIN was a heavy J market I'm surprised the N/S can't make it without adding Y+.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31011 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20539 times:
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Interesting. It's been said SQ took out E+ because Business always went out full, but E+ went out rather empty so they decided to just go all-Business when their new hard product became available.

User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2078 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20391 times:

In the end, as has been speculated, these routes have not been profitable since their launch. If things don't turn around, especially with the price of oil, I would expect these routes to be suspended.


John@SFO
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3277 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20220 times:

Bottom line, is adding a certain amount of Y+ seating going to make this route any more profitable? With the additional number of seats in a higher density than J, going to add enough revenue to the final profit or loss of that flight? Extra people + extra baggage = more weight / more fuel, right?


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineaerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 19552 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
In the end, as has been speculated, these routes have not been profitable since their launch.

I personally think this is a stretch too far... but if you have a source??? (other than the unreliable ST article of course  Smile)

[Edited 2012-03-28 21:15:25]


What?
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4006 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18980 times:
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I took the SIN-EWR flights a few times (very comfortable btw). I obviously didn't do a head count but it looked (close to) full most times. I can't help but wonder whether adding Economy (+) is actually just a ploy to lower the number of J seats and thereby be able to sell the remaining seats at a higher price...


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2078 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18769 times:

[quote=aerohottie,reply=11]I personally think this is a stretch too far... but if you have a source??? (other than the unreliable ST article of course &nbsp [/quote

Infadent wisdom would suggest that they are adding Y/ Y+ because they are not filling J profitably.

I know it is a few years, but I found this quote from 2006. Fuel prices are similar to that time period. But, only the air carrier would know if the route is profitable.

Quote:

Intelligence
SIA Would Not Launch Ultra Long-Haul Flights Today
Staff
70 words
12 June 2006
Aviation Daily
1
Volume 364, Number 50
English
(c) 2006 McGraw-Hill, Inc.
Given a choice, Singapore Airlines would not launch ultra-long-haul flights today, CEO C. S. Chew told The DAILY. Its Singapore-Los Angeles nonstop service was profitable at the end of 2004, Chew said, but turned negative with the rising fuel costs. SIA operates daily Airbus A340-500 services to Los Angeles and New York with five aircraft.



John@SFO
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18712 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):

Interesting. It's been said SQ took out E+ because Business always went out full, but E+ went out rather empty so they decided to just go all-Business when their new hard product became available.


That's right, but since then SQ has changed SIN-NRT-LAX from 744 to A380, which is very attractive for J class passengers too.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18677 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 13):
Infadent wisdom would suggest that they are adding Y/ Y+ because they are not filling J profitably.

Not necessarily. The company isn't just looking to make a profit, they're looking to make the maximum profit. If you're selling the last 20 business class seats at $1000 each and you think that you can sell 40 economy plus seats for $700, then your decision is quite easy, regardless of how the overall profit looks at that instant.

[Edited 2012-03-28 22:07:49]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18606 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
In the end, as has been speculated, these routes have not been profitable since their launch.

one thing you have to be careful of is that a route that might be losing money each flight is still the best option avalible to the airline. SQ has to pay for the plane, and its overhead. It does this regardless of if the plane sits or flys. So if the money made on the flight is more than the cost to fly the route.... you will do it even at a loss since you lose more parking it.

The low resale and lack of market demand makes punting the frames onto the used market a rather nasty financial problem.


User currently offlinerogercamel From Singapore, joined Feb 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17977 times:

I may be wrong, but haven't SQ recently (within the past year) changed from 747 to A380 on SIN-NRT-LAX and SIN-FRA-JFK?

Could this change not be a reflection of the J capacityon the A380 and balancing the J and Y capacity across the flights based on the planes now operating??


User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17816 times:

CX has recently introduced premium economy on some of his planes. Let's hope SQ comes up with a new premium economy for his A345 and then gradually expanding it to other planes if it is popular.

User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 17313 times:

I think SIA should face the reality and cut off this flight completely.
Flying 16 hours or more, no matter how comfortable it can be in business class, still is a drag and this is not Concord where you can afford to charge premium. SIA need to be more careful before overextending themselves. In today's uncertain economic times, airlines face tough external factors and challenges to stay profitable.


User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 15721 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):

In the end, as has been speculated, these routes have not been profitable since their launch. If things don't turn around, especially with the price of oil, I would expect these routes to be suspended.

With the barrel easily heading north of 150$ for an extended period of time we are going to see a lot of these Asia-US ULH disappearing.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14070 times:

Hmmm, interesting news. Does anybody know if this will be Y+ or just regular Y? The article just says they are fitting 'an Economy product'...

I guess it was inevitable that something had to give when SQ brought the A380 on SIN-NRT-LAX and SIN-FRA-JFK. Personally, I think this move is a good one -- it allows them to keep the flight at daily while reducing J capacity. We could also see LAX return to daily...

SQ might also be starting to feel the sting of the move towards cheaper corporate airfares. It would make sense to roll out a Y+ product if they were seeing significant amounts of J class traffic forced to fly Y or Y+ instead of J. This market is now virtually lost to CX in terms of North America.


User currently offlineORDJOE From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13796 times:

I have also heard loads on this flight are good and for the EWR flight, going from New York to SIN would have a good deal of J traffic considering that it is the only nonstop and two world class financial centers. I suppose as always good loads do not necessarily mean good yields. Can they take much cargo on these flights.

I will say I have always wanted to take this flight purely as an aviation enthusiast, now with Y I might be able to as I cant afford a J ticket and one can not use UA miles for these flights.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13631 times:
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Thai Air's A345 has 113 y seats in the rear cabin at 36 inch pitch, their Y+ is 42 inches. SQ has 34 J seats in the same cabin, 100 j class seats currently with no Y & F. While 66 J seats sound about right for SQ I doubt they are going to place 113 Y class seats or any number close to 100 seats. IS SQ ging to keep 80 J with a small 50 seat Y Class, maybe ?

User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 12950 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Interesting. It's been said SQ took out E+ because Business always went out full, but E+ went out rather empty so they decided to just go all-Business when their new hard product became available.

The article mentions that while demand up front was there "pre-Lehman", but companies are now cutting back and the demand has shifted to the back of the plane.

The article also mentions that the plane's configuration presents deployment headaches, as flying it on short hops to closer cities can eat into the J profits on those routes by introducing too much J capacity.

Meanwhile, nothing is confirmed yet. Personally I would naturally hope to see Y+ reintroduced so that I can pay for a flight across the world from my own pocket!



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
25 nycdave : I worked in i-banking in NYC, and knew people who flew that route on a near monthly basis. It nearly always went out full. For people in NYC wanting t
26 Ferroviarius : Possibly, it had been a good decision at the time THEN to fly Business, only, whereas today and for some time to come a mixed configuration would be
27 Docpepz : The flight does go out full on Fridays to Mondays for SIN-EWR and vv. Many times it has 98 J. Midweek though, it is half full. But SQ has to offer a d
28 traindoc : I flew the original configuration in Y (EWR-SIN) in 2006. The seats were quite good and I did OK. I then flew Y from SIN to HKG. However, from HKG bac
29 sq_ek_freak : To be honest having flown the flight between LAX and SIN about 10 times "quite a bit" is stretching it. SQ's product was in my opinion inferior to TG
30 KFlyer : To be honest I do not think that this route has been profitable for a whole year at any point - and I do not see the same operation (345 to NYC nonsto
31 Flighty : Fuel prices. Just think of it. Such a huge aircraft for an E-190 load of people, times 18 hours? Total vanity project imo! Fuel bill must be eye water
32 Ben175 : Can I just say that my three best flights ever have all been on SIN-EWR and SIN-LAX. Whenever I fly Perth-America I always opt for the non-stop servic
33 airbazar : Something doesn't add up. If they're losing money, how is adding Y going to fix that especially when you can't add a true Y cabin and it's already bee
34 trex8 : They may want more flexibility in where they can send those A345s besides these 2 routes.
35 glbltrvlr : I flew the original config in J several times both directions between LAX-SIN. For 16-18 hours it was tolerable, but only just. I can't imagine doing
36 qf002 : If there are 30 J seats empty of each plane, SQ is effectively wasting the space taken up by them. If they can fill 80-100 Y class seats in the same
37 MaverickM11 : These have to be rough routes; I don't see why SQ doesn't just ground the 345 fleet and call it a day. The aircraft have no resale value but at these
38 trex8 : And with SQs book keeping practice they are probably worth zero on the balance sheets already.. They could use them for routes much longer than the A
39 yyz717 : Agree with this statement. I thought the all-business class layout was due, in part, to ensure the nonstop capability of the 345 on these routes? Any
40 sq_ek_freak : Didn't SQ charge a hefty premium for the non stops to the USA even when Executive Economy existed? I remember having the choice of about $1,200 via N
41 MaverickM11 : For the nonstop I sure hope so! But I meant for one stop itineraries to CGK for example--why would anyone pay a premium for a 17 hour flight to SIN a
42 CO787EWR : Probably cheaper to operate the more inefficient A345 then buying brand new 77L's
43 YULWinterSkies : Not exactly, they used to have a small Y+ at the beginning. A classic F-J-Y setting would not work out, however. And would not work out either in ter
44 Stitch : A 777-200LR, while more efficient, is not going to be amazingly so and with SQ already having paid off their A340-500 fleet, the capital costs of add
45 Viscount724 : Why is the J product on the SQ A380 more comfortable than the A345? I thought they were almost identical.
46 Asiaflyer : It is not any significant difference in comfort between the A380 and A345 in J-class. I think the point is that those services are now equal in terms
47 airbazar : Sorry none of that makes sense. Comparing SQ's EWR-SIN with the JFK-FRA-SIN, it's an extra 2hrs eastbound and 3hrs westbound, on the same plane, and
48 fxramper : Is this across the board for N.America? The EWR-SIN is fine with all business class imho. ...especially on EWR-SIN. ...the few times I've used it for
49 yyz717 : SQ has a fleet strategy though of keeping its fleet very young (which argues in favour of getting rid of the 345) and the 77L would have commonality
50 irshava : Will this new service be introduced to EWR?
51 legacyins : DOT data show SIA’s exclusive non-stop flights to the US, which operate with all-premium A340-500s configured with 100 business class seats, have pe
52 Ron88888888 : SQ 21 and 22 being some of my favorite airline experiences ever -- so, I finally took out a membership on this site after years of enjoying reading th
53 SQ22 : Me too, but 744 upper deck was nice. I totally agree. I also preferred EWR over JFK when I had to go to Manhattan, just take the train an you'll arri
54 AngMoh : Originally there was a $200 surcharge which later disappeared. The difference is that for the non-stop flight, no discounted (or non-flexible) fares
55 SInGAPORE_AIR : Today's indicative loads: SQ038: 90% SQ037: 93% SQ022: 100% SQ021: 80%
56 infinit : Must be quite a view. This has always been the flight I've wanted to be on most. I'd rather this than flying with their Suites product. For the very
57 Post contains images airbazar : That was my point originally. They can't make money with J, how can they expect to make money with Y fares? I think this is simply the case that the
58 nycdave : My apologies -- there are a couple routings that come in around 5-7 hours longer than the n/s, but most alternate routings are longer... and of cours
59 Docpepz : It's Friday so of course the flights are full. Do give us the loads on a Wed. Thanks for this anyway!
60 Flighty : As with any flight, the demand is a mix of economy and premium class. The most profitable business and economy fares are distinct from one another. Y
61 hodja : Years ago, when the 777-200LR was just introduced, a lot of forum members felt SQ should immediately sell the A345 at a loss, and buy new 777-200LR w
62 sshank : You summed it up beautifully! I have done SQ 21/22 a couple of times and the scenery on the route is absolutely unreal.
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