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Pinnacle Airlines Files For Chapter 11 (Part 1)  
User currently offlinepilotfox From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 551 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 23007 times:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pinnac...es-files-chapter-11-030000890.html

From the yahoo finance link

MEMPHIS, Tenn., April 1, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (NASDAQ: PNCL - News) today announced that the Company and its subsidiaries have filed voluntary petitions for relief under Chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (the "Court"). Pinnacle intends to use the Chapter 11 process to continue implementing a comprehensive turnaround plan aimed at addressing its operational and financial challenges in a rapidly evolving regional airline industry. During this process, the company will remain focused on providing passengers with safe, reliable and timely service in collaboration with its network partners, Delta Connection, United Express and US Airways Express.

(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20110112/CL29411LOGO )

Pinnacle expects to accomplish several key initiatives during the restructuring process to help ensure that it returns to profitability and remains viable over the long term as the regional airline industry continues to contract and transform. These initiatives include restructuring its key operating agreements with Delta Air Lines, winding down its operations with United Airlines, completing the wind-down of its Essential Air Service (EAS) flying with US Airways, achieving cost savings from its workforce, identifying additional opportunities across the organization to reduce costs, and ensuring that it has the appropriate fleet, staffing levels and network to operate profitably on an ongoing basis.

Sean Menke, President and CEO of Pinnacle, said, "We intend to use the Chapter 11 process to reset our financial and operational structure in order to position Pinnacle for viability over the long term. Quite simply, our current business model is not sustainable, as increasing operating expenses, liquidity constraints, business integration delays and difficulties associated with combining our operations have hindered our ability to maximize our growth potential. Following a lengthy review process, and with the assistance of independent financial, industry and legal advisors, our Board of Directors determined that a court-supervised restructuring is the only feasible course of action to implement our turnaround plan."

Menke continued, "We are committed to delivering safe, reliable travel throughout this process, and thank all of our employees for their continued focus on providing our mainline partners and their customers with on-time flights and superior in-flight service. Our objective is to emerge from this process as a stronger, more focused company, with a revised business model, a substantially improved cost structure and operating agreements that will position us for profitable growth in the future."

In conjunction with the filing, Pinnacle has received a commitment for secured super-priority debtor-in-possession financing ("DIP Financing") from Delta Air Lines, Inc. in the amount of $74.3 million. Following Court approval, $44.3 million will be used by Pinnacle to repay a secured promissory note held by Delta. The remaining $30 million in DIP financing, combined with cash generated by Pinnacle's ongoing operations, will be available to help ensure that Pinnacle has sufficient liquidity to meet its operational and restructuring needs.

Pinnacle has filed a series of customary motions with the Court seeking to ensure the continuation of normal operations, including requesting Court approval to continue to pay employee wages, salaries and benefits without interruption and to pay suppliers for fuel and other goods and services provided after the filing date.

Pinnacle noted that it previously filed withdrawal notices with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) for all of the Essential Air Service (EAS) markets currently served by Colgan Air, a Pinnacle subsidiary. Pinnacle has asked the DOT to establish an accelerated process to identify replacement carriers for the EAS markets it serves, which are currently served by Saab 340 aircraft.

The remaining Saab 340 fleet that Colgan operates for United Express will be wound down over the next several months, with these operations projected to end by Aug. 1, 2012. Similarly, Colgan's Q400 aircraft operations will be wound down by Nov. 30, 2012.

[Edited 2012-04-01 20:30:41]

215 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22963 times:

Quoting pilotfox (Thread starter):
Similarly, Colgan's Q400 aircraft operations will be wound down by Nov. 30, 2012.

Wow. So who does that UAX Q400 flying out of EWR go to?


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22928 times:

Well this is not an April Fools joke here. What a shame. Everyone knew this was the path Pinnacle was headed over the past few months.

Too bad for what this may mean for employees and communities served by Colgan.

Interesting how DL basically is bailing them out, but they more or less have to because of the significant amount of CR2 and CR9 lift they provide.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22852 times:

Wasn't an April Fools joke when Menke and his cohort got a huge raise either...... Nothing like getting a raise when you're asking your employees for concessions.

User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22673 times:

Quoting pilotfox (Thread starter):
The remaining Saab 340 fleet that Colgan operates for United Express will be wound down over the next several months, with these operations projected to end by Aug. 1, 2012. Similarly, Colgan's Q400 aircraft operations will be wound down by Nov. 30, 2012.

Why are they shutting Colgan down? I thought they were getting rebranded as Mesaba?


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22604 times:

Menke is a snake in disguise! He is really proving to be a bankruptcy king to force concessions. Could we be witnessing a modern day Lorenzo? It will take a ton of proof to sway me away from my concerns about Menke. I wish the employees the best.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinesuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22470 times:

I see people hating on Mesa a little less. I see the next hate rant coming on though. They are businesses if the business model is failure they change it. Pure and simple, unfortunately, the employees take the brunt of the punishment! They are all dirty! Face it!

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22392 times:

Oh man. Just visited a pilots forum. Menke got a $400,000.00 raise, bringing him to $650,000.00 a year? I honestly can't see any justification for that raise, especially since he has been pushing employees to take paycuts! I heard that Pinnacles headquarters was decorated with thousands of copied news articles posted everywhere this morning about Menke and his raise. This really boils my blood. This clearly shows how awful corporate America has become. I don't care to hear that this raise will help keep this talented Mr. Menke in place.... Pinnacle is in bankruptcy because of poor executive performance, and that raise sends a terrible message to employees facing pay cuts. If Menke was so talented, he would have turned the company away from bankruptcy starting the day he arrived at Pinnacle.

Yes, I am ranting. And yes, I am peeved. I can't blame the employees for being angry! No CEO of any company deserves a raise like that, especially if they are partly responsible for taking a company into bankruptcy! JALs CEO was honorable when he took a cut to help the airline. This is absolute greed.

A true good hearted leader leads by example. A poor leader pleads with workers to sacrifice pay, yet accepts a large raise, and forces employees to cut pay by going the way of bankruptcy. A true leader would accept a pay cut, and join his/her workforce in sacrifice to save the company. He joins the likes of these Wall Street cons. I don't care if he is the most talented godly CEO,,,, he does not deserve a raise. If he brings Pinnacle out of bankruptcy as a successful, profitable company.... Then and only then should he be rewarded with a raise..... And so should all of the employees of Pinnacle. I am just sick to my stomach!

[Edited 2012-04-01 22:17:42]

[Edited 2012-04-01 22:21:42]


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22293 times:
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One thing doesnt seem to make sense: Pinnacle owes DL 44 millon via a promissory note, so DL is going to loan Pinnacle 74 million, then Pinnacle will turn around and give 44 of that 74 million back to DL to pay off the note. That's like me owing my father ten thousand dollars, then asking dad for a 15,000 loan so I can pay him back the ten thousand I owe him. Why doesn't DL just forgive the note, write off the loss, and give Pinnacle 30 million?


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22234 times:

Hasn't Pinnacle been under Chapter 11 before, or was that just Mesaba?


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 22164 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
I honestly can't see any justification for that raise, especially since he has been pushing employees to take paycuts!

While I agree with you that the principle of getting a raise in the midst of requesting concessions is ludicrous, he apparently took on the CFO role in addition to the CEO role once the CFO left to work for NK. Not saying I agree with it, but the filing that talked about his raise stated that as being one of the reasons for it.


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 22162 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
One thing doesnt seem to make sense: Pinnacle owes DL 44 millon via a promissory note, so DL is going to loan Pinnacle 74 million, then Pinnacle will turn around and give 44 of that 74 million back to DL to pay off the note. That's like me owing my father ten thousand dollars, then asking dad for a 15,000 loan so I can pay him back the ten thousand I owe him. Why doesn't DL just forgive the note, write off the loss, and give Pinnacle 30 million?

I'm guessing there is some sort of tax-related reason for this weird transaction...

I am not looking forward to work to tomorrow. 9E is one of the accounts I handle for my company and now we pretty much have to write of $40000.

Fun.


User currently offlinethebyte From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 21883 times:

Quote:

The remaining Saab 340 fleet that Colgan operates for United Express will be wound down over the next several months, with these operations projected to end by Aug. 1, 2012. Similarly, Colgan's Q400 aircraft operations will be wound down by Nov. 30, 2012.

So I guess this explains the E135's returning to UA's fleet? This make sense. Just pull a few parked E135's from the desert to cover the loss of the Saab's. It puts these planes, that are already costing them money, back into service.

The big surprise to me is the UA Q400 aircraft. Aren't the Q400's owned by UA? Are they going to find another carrier to fly them or are they actually leaving leaving UA's fleet? Aren't the Q400's in the process of receiving first class?


User currently offlinecrjavionics From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 21690 times:

The amount the Menke and the other one got is more that the salary of the departing CFO. Also, if and when they hire a new CFO in the future, do you think those two are just going to take a cut back to what they were originally at?

[Edited 2012-04-02 02:37:37]

User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 21568 times:

Pinnacle has filled to reject the following aircraft leases:

SAAB 340:
N237MJ, N239CJ, N242CJ, N251CJ, N309CE, N321CJ, N339CJ, N356CJ, N402XJ
N407XJ, N412XJ, N413XJ, N414XJ, N416XJ, N418XJ, N420XJ

Q400 Dash 8:

N33WQ 4033 lsf Bombardier Capital (Was only a 12month lease to support 1st Class Mods)
N351NG 4351
N354NG 4354

http://dm.epiq11.com/PinnacleAirlines


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 21510 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 1):
Wow. So who does that UAX Q400 flying out of EWR go to?

ConnectAir? Not sure if they have Q400s.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
I honestly can't see any justification for that raise

Yep. As a British banking regulator said...."You can always reward excellence and should, even mediocrity but never failure."

[Edited 2012-04-02 03:00:59]


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 21475 times:

Quoting crjavionics (Reply 13):
the departing CFO

So this is why Ted Christie jumped....can't blame him (if he wasn't at fault of course)



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 21038 times:

The Saabs will be going away as part of United's plan. 9L had until yesterday to improve their operational scores, or be kicked to the curb.

Menke did this to the employees, and shareholders. His whole story about how he's going to change Pinnacle for the best was all BS and in the end he only cared about himself.

Sorry to my former coworkers.


User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20726 times:

This is a good summary from the employee FAQ website:

4. What changes are going to happen to our operations?
 We intend to complete the wind-down of EAS flying with US Airways.
 Beginning in May, we will begin the wind-down of our Colgan Q400 and Saab 340 operations with United Airlines. The Saab 340 wind-down is planned to be completed by the end of July and the Q-400 operation will come to an end in November.
 We will continue to operate all CRJ200s and the former Mesaba CRJ-900 aircrafts.
 Beginning in January 2013, we will wind down the 16 Pinnacle CRJ-900 aircrafts over a period of five months.
 PinnPro ground-handling associated with the Colgan Saab 340 operation will wind down in coordination with air service termination to specified cities.

5. How many planes will be taken out of service, and when?
 [3] Saab 340 aircraft associated with the US Airways EAS flying will conclude operations in June 2012.
 [24] Saab 340 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and July 2012.
 [31] Q400 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and November 2012.
 [16] CRJ900 aircraft associated with Delta Connection service will wind down between January and May 2013.

The Saab's, Q's, and the ATL CR9's are gone in the future.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12340 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20707 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
Oh man. Just visited a pilots forum. Menke got a $400,000.00 raise, bringing him to $650,000.00 a year? I honestly can't see any justification for that raise, especially since he has been pushing employees to take paycuts!

The ones to be angry with are the members of the board of directors, who represent the shareholders, and who approve the hiring/firing of corporate officers and set their pay.

Apparently they thought the company was better off spending the $400k and suffering the ill will of the employees vs seeing Menke go.

But the joke is on them: CH11 wipes out the shareholders, and in bankruptcy a new BOD gets elected.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
One thing doesnt seem to make sense: Pinnacle owes DL 44 millon via a promissory note, so DL is going to loan Pinnacle 74 million, then Pinnacle will turn around and give 44 of that 74 million back to DL to pay off the note. That's like me owing my father ten thousand dollars, then asking dad for a 15,000 loan so I can pay him back the ten thousand I owe him. Why doesn't DL just forgive the note, write off the loss, and give Pinnacle 30 million?

Because loans between business entities have all kinds of terms and conditions attached to them that your dad's loan doesn't have, and this kind of transaction allows the T&Cs of the old loan to be replaced by the new.

Also there are totally different accounting, tax and legal implications for "forgiving" a loan (which is really writing off a bad debt) vs getting payment for one loan and issuing a new loan.

Writing off a bad loan then immediately issuing a new loan would look to regulators like you were trying to shift losses from Pinnacle to DL, so would receive a lot of scrutiny.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20551 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 18):
Beginning in January 2013, we will wind down the 16 Pinnacle CRJ-900 aircrafts over a period of five months.

I assume these will go to another DL Connection carrier since I can't imagine that DL wants to dump CRJ-900's right now.


User currently offlinecrjavionics From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20392 times:

I wonder which 16 will go? Is it a coincidence that Pinnacle owns 16 CRJ900s (the PQs)?

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20280 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 17):
The Saabs will be going away as part of United's plan. 9L had until yesterday to improve their operational scores, or be kicked to the curb.

What was the problem operationally? At least at Dulles, 9L seemed on par with other Express carriers (though with their short stage lengths, they were disproportionately affected by bad weather and airfield delays).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20056 times:

Quoting pilotfox (Thread starter):
achieving cost savings from its workforce

How the hell do you cut when the workforce is hardly making anything to begin with? What a disaster for the employees, and I feel horrible for them. They don't deserve this - this one is on management, for trying to expand faster than was sustainable.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Hasn't Pinnacle been under Chapter 11 before, or was that just Mesaba?

Mesaba filed for bankruptcy back when Northwest did, but I don't think Pinnacle has been in Chapter 11.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19811 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 17):
The Saabs will be going away as part of United's plan. 9L had until yesterday to improve their operational scores, or be kicked to the curb.

What was the problem operationally? At least at Dulles, 9L seemed on par with other Express carriers (though with their short stage lengths, they were disproportionately affected by bad weather and airfield delays).


United (as part of the pre-restructuring) had informed Pinnacle that they had until April 1 to improve performance, or UA would take the flying off Colgan. The performance on the Q's and Saab's was getting worse and worse due to MX and allegedly a "money losing" contract.

This might be a coincidence, but wasn't Trenary's last day March 31, so his "bonus" couldn't be taken away by the courts?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20350 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 24):
so his "bonus" couldn't be taken away by the courts?

That may or may not be true, though it's a complicated question.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20294 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 24):
This might be a coincidence, but wasn't Trenary's last day March 31, so his "bonus" couldn't be taken away by the courts?

We have a winner. This bankruptcy has been in the works for quite some time. The exec raises were part of it.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20466 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
Quoting catiii (Reply 1):Wow. So who does that UAX Q400 flying out of EWR go to?
ConnectAir? Not sure if they have Q400s.

Are there still ATRs (former CO planes) in storage?

If so, could they be 'Febreezed' and brought online like the 135s.


User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20527 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 18):
5. How many planes will be taken out of service, and when?
 [3] Saab 340 aircraft associated with the US Airways EAS flying will conclude operations in June 2012.
 [24] Saab 340 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and July 2012.
 [31] Q400 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and November 2012.
 [16] CRJ900 aircraft associated with Delta Connection service will wind down between January and May 2013.

Is the plan for UA to find another carrier to operate Q400 lift, or is the elimination of 55 turboprops part of United's planned domestic capacity reduction? This to me is the big news from this announcement.

How much of a blow is it to Bombardier if nine percent of the world's Q400 fleet is parked (31+ 4 Malev / 388)?

And how much longer before we see an annoucement that those 16 CR9 are headed to GoJet?


User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20301 times:

There is an employee conference call at 10am Central. That should be an interesting call...

User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1169 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20303 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting pilotfox (Thread starter):
n conjunction with the filing, Pinnacle has received a commitment for secured super-priority debtor-in-possession financing ("DIP Financing") from Delta Air Lines, Inc. in the amount of $74.3 million. Following Court approval, $44.3 million will be used by Pinnacle to repay a secured promissory note held by Delta. The remaining $30 million in DIP financing, combined with cash generated by Pinnacle's ongoing operations, will be available to help ensure that Pinnacle has sufficient liquidity to meet its operational and restructuring needs.

Delta, is agreeing to provide 30million in fresh cash DIP (Debtor in Possession) financing, but this is conditional on the courts effectively agreeing to move up, by converting it into new debt as part of the DIP, the existing 44mm Delta loan. So the entire 74mm goes to the top of the heap and so following their emergence from bankruptcy it would be the first priority debt to get repaid. Ingenious.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20300 times:

This explains why they haven't followed through with rebranding Colgan as Mesaba.

Assuming UA owns the Q400s, I imagine they will find a new home. The question is with whom?

Horizon is the only current active operator of the type in the US, and they have contracted outside of AS before (the F9 flying prior to Lynx).

Republic is certified for the type, but whether UA would contract that flying to RAH is another story.

I wouldn't be surprised if SkyWest ends up with the Q400 flying.

If they're leased or owned by PNCL then it's anyone's guess where they end up going.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20136 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 18):
Beginning in January 2013, we will wind down the 16 Pinnacle CRJ-900 aircrafts over a period of five months.

Why would they get rid of CR9s and keep CR2s? Aren't CR9s more profitable than the CR2s?



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20034 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 32):
Why would they get rid of CR9s and keep CR2s? Aren't CR9s more profitable than the CR2s?

Generally yes, but that would depend on the terms of the CPA they were flown under. At any rate, 9E owns the 16 ATL CR9s, while DL leases the 200s and in turn subleases them to 9E. The original XJ and F8 CR9s are owned by DL.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19922 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Horizon is the only current active operator of the type in the US, and they have contracted outside of AS before (the F9 flying prior to Lynx).

incorrect, RP currently operates a few of them out of DEN for F9! For how much longer is unknown, but they do operated them. Realistically RP could pick them up for United, but I know RP has it's own issues right now!


Either way, this is really sad news for the entire Pinnacle family! With the reduction of the saabs, Qs and the CRJ9s I expect a pretty hefty furlough announcement in the near future, unless a max exodus happens before then!

Good Luck guys!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19766 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
ConnectAir? Not sure if they have Q400s.

I'm sure you mean CommutAir which operates the -200 & -300 varients, but not not the Q400.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 28):
Is the plan for UA to find another carrier to operate Q400 lift, or is the elimination of 55 turboprops part of United's planned domestic capacity reduction? This to me is the big news from this announcement.
Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Assuming UA owns the Q400s, I imagine they will find a new home. The question is with whom?

CommutAir would make sense since they operate both the -200 & -300, but how quickly could they be certified for the Q400?



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19690 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
Interesting how DL basically is bailing them out, but they more or less have to because of the significant amount of CR2 and CR9 lift they provide.

My question is whether DL will use this to extricate themselves from the Pinnacle 50 seater flying. I'm told the contract allows them to do that. The DL DIP financing basically means that DL now "owns" Pinnacle. It is hard to imagine DL would not take the opportunity to dump a ton of CRJs on the creditors. That seems like a certainty. DL is content to screw over UA/US for now by pulling these airplanes immediately, but they will come up with a more elegant stage exit from a lot of Pinnacle's CRJs IMHO. Pinnacle is going to emerge MUCH smaller.

Here's another thought. They could dump the PNCL CRJs, get costs down to ridiculously low levels, and then dump the Comair CRJs (that Delta is on the hook for) on to Pinnacle. That's best case for Delta. I know it seems dumb, but it would really be about dumping the planes they can rid of using Ch11 and making the ones that are "owned" more cheap to operate.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1113 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19666 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
I wouldn't be surprised if SkyWest ends up with the Q400 flying.

That would be nice, but whether or not that happens depends on OO's own financial problems right now.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19658 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
How the hell do you cut when the workforce is hardly making anything to begin with?

I always believed that the Regional / Mainline carrier relationship placed too much risk on the regional carriers. Regional carriers bare all of the expense risk. Therefore, when costs increase (ie. fuel prices), margins at the regional carriers get squeezed unless mainline carriers are willing to offset the higher costs with higher ticket prices. Mainline carriers need to have a larger vested interest in this relationship (ie. allow regionals more pricing power or assume some of the cost burden), otherwise this relationship will be difficult to maintain long term in an environment of increasing fuel prices.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19460 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
incorrect, RP currently operates a few of them out of DEN for F9! For how much longer is unknown, but they do operated them. Realistically RP could pick them up for United, but I know RP has it's own issues right now!

I stand corrected. I thought the few remaining former Lynx Q400s had already been phased out. And yes Realistically RW/RAH could pick up the flying for UA. I'm sure RAH would love the additional CPA flying, but who knows if UA wants to give it to them.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 35):
CommutAir would make sense since they operate both the -200 & -300, but how quickly could they be certified for the Q400?

CommutAir is another logical option provided they could handle that rapid of an expansion in such a short amount of time.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3388 posts, RR: 6
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19284 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 35):
CommutAir would make sense since they operate both the -200 & -300, but how quickly could they be certified for the Q400?

Commutair can't even reliably operate the aircraft they have, let a lone doubling their fleet and number of pilot domiciles. I don't see them taking these aircraft.


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1169 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18970 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 36):
It is hard to imagine DL would not take the opportunity to dump a ton of CRJs on the creditors. That seems like a certainty.

As I understand it Delta leases from outside leasing companies virtually all of the 120+ CRJ-200 operated by Pinnacle, and in turn subleases them to Pinnacle. Delta is not in b/k, so they can't abrogate their lease obligations with the leasing companies. All they (Delta) really can do is:
a) Return the aircraft when their leases expire. I would be interested to see what the calendar of CRJ200 lease expirations that Delta has with the leasing companies looks like over the next few years.
b) Terminate or reduce the CPA agreement with Pinnacle for performance reasons which is also presumably permitted since Pinnacle is bankrupt and most CPA's provide for termination if the operates files for bankruptcy, in which case Delta could decide to:
a) Park some/all the planes while still having to pay the remaining lease payments. Would not be the first time an airline parks a leased aircraft if the calculations show losses will be lower to just continue making the lease payment on a parked plane without actually flying it.
b) Move some/all of the CR2 to another carrier to operate.
c) Restructure the CPA to try and reduce the contractual payments to Pinnacle. I recall something that the basic CPA agreement at one time provided Pinnacle an 8% profit margin. Since the existing shareholders will be wiped out, Delta could just operate Pinnacle on a flat break-even until the CRJ2 leases expire.
d) Fold Pinnacle into one of their other carriers.
e) The timetable for Delta beefing up its smaller lift mainline fleet including the additional MD90's (and perhaps there is validity to these noises over a deal for 717's) will probably have a significant bearing on how quickly they park CR2's.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinedurangomac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18590 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 38):
I always believed that the Regional / Mainline carrier relationship placed too much risk on the regional carriers. Regional carriers bare all of the expense risk. Therefore, when costs increase (ie. fuel prices), margins at the regional carriers get squeezed unless mainline carriers are willing to offset the higher costs with higher ticket prices. Mainline carriers need to have a larger vested interest in this relationship (ie. allow regionals more pricing power or assume some of the cost burden), otherwise this relationship will be difficult to maintain long term in an environment of increasing fuel prices.


Actually in a CPA scenario the mainline partner pays the regional a flat fee per hour and the mainline partner usually takes all the variable expenses like fuel. In this model the regional is isolated from a lot of risk, it's the mainline partner taking the risk.


User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18621 times:

As a highlight to the employee call - Menke began to cry when talking about his new raise. He said he didn't want his family to go through ANOTHER bankruptcy.

User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18537 times:

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 28):
How much of a blow is it to Bombardier if nine percent of the world's Q400 fleet is parked (31+ 4 Malev / 388)?

I hear Westjet is looking for about 30 turboprops ...


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18567 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 36):
It is hard to imagine DL would not take the opportunity to dump a ton of CRJs on the creditors. That seems like a certainty.

DL can't. DL owns the planes and subleases them to 9E. 9E can reject them, but they go back to the owner/lessor, which in this case is DL. Since DL has provided the DIP financing, I would hazard to guess that the plan is to keep 9E flying. They'll likely own 9E when all is said and done. The Mesaba name is dead now that the turboprop flying is going away, no w need to bother putting Mesaba's name on Colgan's certificate.


Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Assuming UA owns the Q400s, I imagine they will find a new home. The question is with whom?

IIRC, Pinnacle purchased the Q400's. May have done a sale/leaseback transaction, but UA doesn't own them.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
I assume these will go to another DL Connection carrier since I can't imagine that DL wants to dump CRJ-900's right now.

You guys gotta quit assuming.... Delta doesn't control those planes, the 16 are Pinnacle owned. DL may cut a deal with the lessor and take the rejected planes, but they'll probably want the lessor to take -200's in return. The lessor will put the plane wherever they can make the most money from the plane.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18529 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 43):
As a highlight to the employee call - Menke began to cry when talking about his new raise. He said he didn't want his family to go through ANOTHER bankruptcy.

You know that scene at the end of The Lion King, where Scar gets taken out by the hyenas? That's what I'm imagining from what you're describing.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offline9lflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18470 times:

With all the negativity in this thread, I think we have forgotten about the employees of Colgan who are now on the street. My thoughts go out to all my friends and family at Colgan Air. I wish you luck in the future. Such a sad day for all the employees.


My opinions do not represent the opinions of my company. They are solely the opinion of the poster.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18391 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 41):
As I understand it Delta leases from outside leasing companies virtually all of the 120+ CRJ-200 operated by Pinnacle, and in turn subleases them to Pinnacle. Delta is not in b/k, so they can't abrogate their lease obligations with the leasing companies. All they (Delta) really can do is:

This is correct.

On the DL connection side, the former XJ and F8 CRJ-900s are all leased by DL with Pinnacle as the operating carrier. Same with the 9E CRJ-200s. This goes back to the NW era. The only exception is the 16 ATL-based CRJ-900s that 9E owns.

That being said, DL simply cannot walk away from the CRJ-900 or CRJ-200s. The bankruptcy does give them the ability to rework the air service agreement and possibly move airplanes to another carrier.

It is a fact that DL will operate every CRJ-900 going forward. It is almost a certainty that the ATL-based 16 9E-owned CRJ-900s will likely turn up again somewhere operated by someone else for DL.

The CRJ-200s are interesting, particularly since they are actually some of the newest -200s in the DL Connection fleet. They range from 1999-2005. A significant portion of the CRJ lift is less than 10 years old. These aircraft are also generally in very good condition. Unlike some of the older OH and EV CRJs.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18209 times:

I could say a lot about what this means for the crew members and hard working employees, but most of its already been said. The people I really feel bad for in this case are the shareholders. The Shareholders have not been happy with the BOD for some time and it seems like really the shareholders (Who the company is supposed to be working on behalf of) had no say, were completely mistreated in recent months, and when they tried to get some say on the BOD, the BOD turned them down. Pinnacles actions in recent months have not only been bad for the employees at Pinnacle, but Sean Menke and the BOD have basically given the Shareholders the finger, and I hope there is at least one law firm that is investigating this on behalf of the shareholders.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6712 posts, RR: 32
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18017 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 8):
One thing doesnt seem to make sense: Pinnacle owes DL 44 millon via a promissory note, so DL is going to loan Pinnacle 74 million, then Pinnacle will turn around and give 44 of that 74 million back to DL to pay off the note. That's like me owing my father ten thousand dollars, then asking dad for a 15,000 loan so I can pay him back the ten thousand I owe him.
Quoting Coronado (Reply 30):
this is conditional on the courts effectively agreeing to move up, by converting it into new debt as part of the DIP, the existing 44mm Delta loan. So the entire 74mm goes to the top of the heap and so following their emergence from bankruptcy it would be the first priority debt to get repaid. Ingenious.

That's exactly what is happening. DIP financing gets superpriority over all other indebtedness, so Delta ensures that the amount of the existing promissory note gets repaid. It's akin to why lenders love to have individual debtors convert credit card debt into mortgage or home equity line of credit (HELOC) debt (marketed as "consolidation" loans) -- credit card debt is unsecured, while mortgage/HELOC debt is secured by the property. If the debtor declares bankruptcy, the credit card debt can be wiped out or reduced, while the mortgage/HELOC debt remains secured by the property.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
RP currently operates a few of them out of DEN for F9! For how much longer is unknown, but they do operated them. Realistically RP could pick them up for United, but I know RP has it's own issues right now!

AFAIK, the Q400 flying at Republic (YX, I think) was supposed to end in roughly two weeks, but was very, very recently extended through the summer (as of about a week ago). While it could be a coincidence, I'm not inclined to believe it is.

Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Horizon is the only current active operator of the type in the US, and they have contracted outside of AS before (the F9 flying prior to Lynx).

It's not clear that QX (Alaska Air Group) would want to take on flying so far removed from their existing bases, though. It seems like a lot of risk for fairly limited reward.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 26):
Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 24):
This might be a coincidence, but wasn't Trenary's last day March 31, so his "bonus" couldn't be taken away by the courts?

We have a winner. This bankruptcy has been in the works for quite some time. The exec raises were part of it.

It really depends on when the bonus was paid. There is a clawback period (something like 60 days prior to filing) from which the company can try to recover payments to vendors/suppliers, although I don't know if that applies to employment contracts.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17956 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 50):

AFAIK, the Q400 flying at Republic (YX, I think) was supposed to end in roughly two weeks, but was very, very recently extended through the summer (as of about a week ago). While it could be a coincidence, I'm not inclined to believe it is.

A Pilot forum stated that this was due to lake of 170/190 sim space for the pilots who would be displaced.


User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17485 times:

Real sad to see this turn into a train wreck (plane wreck?). Best of luck to all the crewmembers.

I doubt there's any possibility of this happening... but is there any chance that the Q400s could get picked up by Piedmont? They have the 100 thru 300 (I think they do have a few 200s scattered throughout the fleet), although none are Q series and none have F class, and they're owned by US Airways.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17271 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 43):
As a highlight to the employee call - Menke began to cry when talking about his new raise. He said he didn't want his family to go through ANOTHER bankruptcy.

There's got to be some context here that I'm not aware of - was he talking about personal bankruptcy or corporate bankruptcy? If it's the former, I'd imagine that would have gone over like a lead balloon. And if it's the latter, what does his family have to do with it? He's got plenty of money, they'll be fine (as wrong as that is).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 54, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17258 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 41):
As I understand it Delta leases from outside leasing companies virtually all of the 120+ CRJ-200 operated by Pinnacle, and in turn subleases them to Pinnacle.
Quoting Coronado (Reply 41):
Park some/all the planes while still having to pay the remaining lease payments.
Quoting toltommy (Reply 45):
Since DL has provided the DIP financing, I would hazard to guess that the plan is to keep 9E flying.

OK, I just blew my eyesight reading PNCL's 10K and it does appear that PNCL pays Delta a lease for the aircraft and then Delta reimburses PNCL for the lease payments it accepts. Kind of peculiar. The larger aircraft do not have lease payments to Delta and are simply owned by Delta. Kind of weird. Well, regardless they *had* a contract that forced them to continue operating CRJs with PNCL and we know DL wants to park around 75 additional CRJs from comments they have made over the last year. I guess they will be stuck with the planes, but it does give them the ability to get out of the contract and providing them DIP definitely does. I still expect them to park a large number of those RJs unless it somehow saves money to trash rates at PNCL and then decimate Comair more. I'm kind of surprised DL is so eager to own them again.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17236 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 53):

I doubt there's any possibility of this happening... but is there any chance that the Q400s could get picked up by Piedmont? They have the 100 thru 300 (I think they do have a few 200s scattered throughout the fleet), although none are Q series and none have F class, and they're owned by US Airways.

No. PDT being wholly owned will not by flying outside of the USAir system. The 400s are scoped out and the 200s went to South America in '07. Only 100s and 300s left.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 56, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16794 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 54):

There's got to be some context here that I'm not aware of - was he talking about personal bankruptcy or corporate bankruptcy? If it's the former, I'd imagine that would have gone over like a lead balloon. And if it's the latter, what does his family have to do with it? He's got plenty of money, they'll be fine (as wrong as that is).

Frontier Airlines went into bankruptcy on his watch too if I remember correctly.

It's funny, everyone on here thought that Menke would be a great thing for Pinnacle and that this would be in good hands for years to come. Looks like very few people think that anymore, though partly in Menke's defense, Phil Trennary was the one that left the mess.


User currently offlinesonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16802 times:
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This would be a golden opportunity for Alaska Air Group (aka Horizon) to pick up some of these Q400's. They've discussed lack of Q400's in their fleet constraining increasing existing service and not expanding to new destinations. This could solve the issue.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 58, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16773 times:

Announced this AM part of the BK, Pinnacle have inked a new 10-year contract with Delta.

I'm sure details will trickle out...



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16576 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 43):
As a highlight to the employee call - Menke began to cry when talking about his new raise. He said he didn't want his family to go through ANOTHER bankruptcy.

What a POS! He should be ashamed to accept a raise, while hard working employees under him have been dumped on the street. He has officially earned himself a need for 24 hour protection. Carl Icahn has more body guards than I can count on both hands. Menke might want to use that raise to hire protection.

I don't know how trash like Menke can sleep at night! I am hopeful that he is taunted every time he steps foot in that corporate office. I also hope the unions do everything possible to make his life miserable. And I hope every time he steps foot on a Pinnacle flight, he drinks the flight attendants urine.

I guess I am a little pissed off. I bleed pain for the employees who are hurt because of his actions. I was sure bankruptcy was a strong possibility. But, I am furious that $400,000.00 is going in this fools pocket,while jobs are lost, and remaining workers face hardship due to painful pay cuts.

Mr. Menke, save those tears you faked at the conference call. And don't cry about your family going through another bankruptcy. I am sure they will face the pain when you cash your paycheck. You are a snake, and a terrible leader. Shame on you Minke! You hurt F9, jumped with your golden parachute.... And will do the same to Pinnacle. May God have mercy on your soul Mr. Menke.

God bless the employees of Pinnacle. I am so sorry you all have to face this.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5449 posts, RR: 29
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16459 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):
And I hope every time he steps foot on a Pinnacle flight, he drinks the flight attendants urine.
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):
May God have mercy on your soul Mr. Menke.

Interesting....

What do you propose he should have done differently to have saved Pinnacle, aside from doing it for less money?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16467 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):
But, I am furious that $400,000.00 is going in this fools pocket,while jobs are lost, and remaining workers face hardship due to painful pay cuts.

Let's keep this in perspective. $400,000 is what, $20 per employee? That money would not save many - if any - jobs.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16410 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):

Ummm...ok?

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):
And I hope every time he steps foot on a Pinnacle flight, he drinks the flight attendants urine.

Classy...



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16260 times:

Menke did not put Pinnacle into bankruptcy. Menke was hired because the Board of Directors knew Pinnacle would be going into bankruptcy and Menke had experience steering F9 through the BK process. We cannot put all of this onto Menke. Menke did a good job getting F9 on the other side of BK. He did not put F9 nor Pinnacle into BK, and I was afraid his reputation would suffer when he accepted the position at Pinnacle. My first thoughts were why would he want to step into that Pinnacle mess, but he did, and now so many on this board are putting everything on Menke's shoulders. It ignores the warnings that Bedford and the other regionals have been saying for a while now. The race to the bottom is killing the entire regional industry. Blame the majors and the travelling public for the systemic problems in regional aviation.

Quoting sonomaFlyer (Reply 58):
This would be a golden opportunity for Alaska Air Group (aka Horizon) to pick up some of these Q400's. They've discussed lack of Q400's in their fleet constraining increasing existing service and not expanding to new destinations. This could solve the issue.

Unlikely. It's not like there aren't Q400s available on the market. Horizon had subleased one of Republic/Lynx's Q400s and recently returned it. Bedford has been trying to sell his Q400s for a while now and no one wants them.


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16139 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Assuming UA owns the Q400s, I imagine they will find a new home. The question is with whom?

Below:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 45):
IIRC, Pinnacle purchased the Q400's. May have done a sale/leaseback transaction, but UA doesn't own them.

   UA/CO does not own the planes. Most would *I believe* go back to BBD should 9E liquidate or UA break the contract on grounds of breach. (BK is a severable breach in most of these contracts)


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16004 times:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 65):
(BK is a severable breach in most of these contracts)

Yes, though that's on the longer-term horizon, as it would have to wait until after Pinnacle emerges.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15562 times:

Was reading some of the court filings. These guys are in pretty financially upside down with much of their operations.


Regarding their contracts, one document states the United Q400 flying lost Pinnacle $11mil in 2011 and was estimated to lose another $100mil for the remainder of the standing agreement. They state “material increases in Q400 maintenance and labor cost” made projected CPA earnings unfavorable.

Between 2/1/2012 and 4/2/2012 Colgan was able to temproraily earn higher rates from United while they negotiated a rate reset, however they were unable to come to revised terms and as such were subject to snapback to old unfavorable rates again stating 4/3/2012. As such they instead negotiated a post filing wind down agreement with United covering 28 Q400s and 25 Saab 340s.

Shame on these guys for entering into such a loss making agreement back in 2007, or the Q400 is much more of a financial lemon than Bombardier would like to advertise.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15433 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
As such they instead negotiated a post filing wind down agreement with United covering 28 Q400s and 25 Saab 340s.

Do you have a link to that document? I'd be very interested in reading it.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15510 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
Shame on these guys for entering into such a loss making agreement back in 2007, or the Q400 is much more of a financial lemon than Bombardier would like to advertise.

Republic has been saying for a long time that the Q400 is an expensive aircraft to operate - and was mostly shouted down for it here.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15434 times:

Received the following draw down schedule for United flying.

Aircraft in service at end of each month:

Q400
April – 28
May – 25
June – 22
July – 19
Aug – 16
Sep – 12
Oct – 9
Nov – 6
Dec – 0

Saab 340
April – 25
May – 20
June – 15
July – 9
Aug – 0

In general United will schedule 2-3 lines of flying less monthly to allow for spares and maintenance coverage.


I also find it interesting United knew these guys were going to file as they took the time to negotiate a wind down agreement, however obviously they were not interested enough in keeping them around by bumping up the CPA rates. This tells me either 1) UA is OK to shed the Q400s and Saab capacity, or 2) UA has cheaper alternative plans to replace the lost capacity and is not worried.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15274 times:

Ask and ye shall be rewarded:

This is from the employee website (flypinnacle.com):

This message is being sent to all company-provided email addresses, as well as distributed through AirMail and posted to the home page of our employee web sites. Managers, please share this information with any of your team members who may not have immediate access to these channels.

In my Jan. 20 message outlining the challenges facing our business, I discussed our United contracts – the Q400 capacity purchase agreement as well as the two Saab pro-rate agreements – and the fact that they are not performing well for us financially.

Today we made a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to inform our external stakeholders of modifications recently made to our United contracts.

In short, United has agreed to modify the rates they pay us on both our Q400 and Saab operations to improve the financial performance of those contracts through April 2.

This interim agreement provides us additional near-term liquidity and therefore additional time to work on long-term solutions with all of our partners.

With respect to United, the interim agreement provides us the opportunity to spend the next few weeks discussing a possible longer-term arrangement that would be profitable for us. In the event that we fail to reach agreement with United over the next few weeks on the terms of a longer-term deal, the interim agreement provides United the ability to set into motion an orderly wind down of our relationship. Both companies hope to avoid this contingency, but we also recognize that if we aren’t able to reach a new agreement we will have to step away from this unprofitable business. The wind down option provides United comfort that the process would be orderly and would minimize disruption to their overall operations.

Like our EDC agreement announced Jan. 26, today’s news is the result of a great deal of hard work by many people. It is also a very positive interim development; but it is not a final solution to our broader challenges. We still have a lot of work to do in order to make our turnaround plan work. We will need to agree with our union partners on essential concessions, and those discussions are still ongoing. We also have more hard work to do with other business partners. And, as previously discussed, we are still in the process of completing our internal organizational restructuring, which remains on track to be completed by Feb. 15.

Maintaining safe, reliable operations is still the most important thing you can do to contribute to this process. Please remain focused on our operations and know that I’ll continue to provide updates as new developments unfold.

All the best,
Sean


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3381 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15247 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 43):
As a highlight to the employee call - Menke began to cry when talking about his new raise. He said he didn't want his family to go through ANOTHER bankruptcy.

Ick.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 60):
I don't know how trash like Menke can sleep at night!

Easy. On huge piles of cash...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinecrj200faguy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15164 times:

This may not be Menke's fault but why is he justifying his gigantic pay raise??

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 73, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15087 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 64):
Menke was hired because the Board of Directors knew Pinnacle would be going into bankruptcy and Menke had experience steering F9 through the BK process.

I have a bit of insider info on this whole situation. First, if you have read my stuff on the F9 board you know I've been critical of SM before, so I'm not a defender. I'm told, however, that Menke was not aware the company was in any kind of real danger of Ch11 when he took the job and he threatened to leave after seeing just how dire the situation was...and they gave him more money to get him to stay. Ted Christie also came from F9 with Menke and bailed out for Spirit after only a few months. That should tell you something about how aware they both were about the situation.

Should SM have left? Maybe. The problem is that there was nothing else they could give him knowing Ch11 was coming that would be worth anything. The stock options that could have made him rich were going to be worthless. They gave him salary. I can only assure you that crocodile tears or not, he doesn't want to be known as a Ch11 CEO and that is what he has now become. His career as an airline CEO is probably over now and he never "cashed out" with a ton of stock options or million dollar bonuses. You don't get "early retirement rich" being a Ch11 CEO. I also suspect Delta will have him tossed before they make it through CH11. He's not the kind of person who will want to take orders from DL...or BB...or Jeff Potter...

This was a bad fit from day one. He's a marketing guy and you put him at an airline that does not perform marketing.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 74, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14846 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 55):
OK, I just blew my eyesight reading PNCL's 10K and it does appear that PNCL pays Delta a lease for the aircraft and then Delta reimburses PNCL for the lease payments it accepts. Kind of peculiar. The larger aircraft do not have lease payments to Delta and are simply owned by Delta. Kind of weird.

The CRJ-200 air service agreement dates back to the NW days back when NW was adding the CRJs to the fleet before they own Ch. 11 filing. NW was ordering the CRJ-200s back in 1999-2005

The CRJ-900s primarily came from Mesaba, when NW placed the initial order for 36 CR9's as a part of their Ch. 11 restructuring. DL placed the F8 CRJ-900s in with the Mesaba fleet. Then there is the original 16 9E CRJ-900s from the PMDL side that are owned by Pinnacle and operate primarily from ATL

Last year when they merged in Mesaba, DL signed a long-term air service agreement with Pinnacle for the CR9s running through about 2022, somewhat an unprecedented duration in the industry.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 59):
Announced this AM part of the BK, Pinnacle have inked a new 10-year contract with Delta.

I'm sure details will trickle out...

Interesting to see all the details trickle out.

I wonder if this was truly the UA/CO (legacy Colgan boogy man) that is what brought down the house? How much did the DL agreements factor into the matter? Pinnacle is way to important to DL and essentially would cripple their operation due to the shear size of the fleet and impact to the network.


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14804 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
Last year when they merged in Mesaba, DL signed a long-term air service agreement with Pinnacle for the CR9s running through about 2022, somewhat an unprecedented duration in the industry.

Not at all unprecedented. UA signed a CRJ deal with OO in the early 00's that was through 2024. That's still on the books. So that deal was twice the duration of the one you're referring to.

[Edited 2012-04-02 13:54:34]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 76, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14685 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):
Let's keep this in perspective. $400,000 is what, $20 per employee? That money would not save many - if any - jobs.

Probably not. But let's say he hadn't taken the money. You couldn't find a more cost-effective way of boosting employee morale than that. Instead, he comes off looking like a greedy ass who just wants whatever he can milk out of the company and doesn't give a crap about the hardships his employees are going to go through.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 77, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14593 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 41):

Just as an FYI, although many commercial agreements include language allowing for termination in the event of a BK filing, that language is seldom enforceable, as US bankruptcy laws generally prohibit a party from ending a contract with a debtor simply because of a bankruptcy filing.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14568 times:



Quoting avek00 (Reply 78):
Just as an FYI, although many commercial agreements include language allowing for termination in the event of a BK filing, that language is seldom enforceable, as US bankruptcy laws generally prohibit a party from ending a contract with a debtor simply because of a bankruptcy filing.

Which is probably why they agreed on the wind down before the filing.

[Edited 2012-04-02 14:06:02]

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 79, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14423 times:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...2/pinnacle-bankruptcy.html?cmp=rss

Looks like the Qs will stay with United, question is which regional will get them??



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14315 times:

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 44):
Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 28):
How much of a blow is it to Bombardier if nine percent of the world's Q400 fleet is parked (31+ 4 Malev / 388)?

I hear Westjet is looking for about 30 turboprops ...

It still would hurt Bombardier because they potentially loose the sale of 30 brand new planes if 30 used ones hit the market and Westjet decided to pick those up.

If the article cbphoto posted in Reply 80 is true, it's a moot point though as it doesn't appear they will hit the market.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinesldispatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14225 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 80):
Looks like the Qs will stay with United, question is which regional will get them??

I think that is a smart move on United's part. Just because one regional hasn't seemed to be able to get them to work doesn't mean another one can't. I'm betting Skywest..or even Horizon may step in.


User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14126 times:

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 82):
I'm betting Skywest..or even Horizon may step in.

This is purely speculation on my part, but I would bet OO over AS/QX. For one, aside from a new type, OO has more ability to absorb that kind of growth given its sheer size vs. QX, and for two, AS/QX has a very focused, successful, profitable business model set up right now, and I can't see them completely stepping outside that business model to fly for UA. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like something AS/QX would want to be a part of.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 83, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13971 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 83):
This is purely speculation on my part, but I would bet OO over AS/QX. For one, aside from a new type, OO has more ability to absorb that kind of growth given its sheer size vs. QX, and for two, AS/QX has a very focused, successful, profitable business model set up right now, and I can't see them completely stepping outside that business model to fly for UA. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like something AS/QX would want to be a part of.

I would agree as well, I put a very good chance that OO gets these planes. Also, it has been a long standing rumor within Skywest that a Q400 training program was in the works!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 84, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13750 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 38):
Regional carriers bare all of the expense risk. Therefore, when costs increase (ie. fuel prices

Not quite. Most moden CPAs call for the mainline carrier to foot he fuel bill. I know that's how it's set upt DL with their carriers (those that are under a CPA and not at risk).

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):
Let's keep this in perspective. $400,000 is what, $20 per employee? That money would not save many - if any - jobs.

Sure, you can look at it like that OR...he could pay the salary of roughly 20 flight attendants for a year. I don't think it's about the literaly but rather at least trying to do the right thing. Ho can you ask for pay cuts but take a raise yourself? However, based on what enilria said, he doesn't care about the people. He would have otherwise baile without the raise so that's something totally different.

---------------------------------------

This whole situation is so bizzare to me. In just one day, some many things have come to light and so much info. DL funding this sorry situation (I think it has less to do with the 900s and more to do with them wanting ther money back that they initially loaned to PNCL because just like how the export bank owns the Qs, they also financed the 900s and wouldn't be too hard for DL to find them a new home through the creditor) to the nnounced wind down of the CR9s and Qs (by Dec!) to United saying tody they will be placed with another carrier.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 85, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13475 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The word out of Export Canada/Crown Corp is that United already has the Q400 fleet lined up to go to another operator. Makes sense. UA just spent several million putting first class on those birds - Pinnacle didn't pay for it.

A wise comment over the on Republic/Frontier thread hypothesizes that this whole Pinnacle Ch 11 and rejection of the Q's may be why Republic just recently extended the schedule of the Q400's for Frontier operations through the summer. The Q's were to be gone from Republic by the end of the month I believe...


User currently offlineflightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13436 times:

Colgan Saab service had become (in our experience) very unreliable out and back to IAD. We had four cancels last year back to IAD and either had to taxi cab (100 miles!) or RON at UAL's expense.


A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 87, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13317 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 85):
He would have otherwise baile without the raise so that's something totally different.

Who in their right mind would parachute into 9E to fix it? And how much should they be paid?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 88, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13125 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 88):

I think you're making my point. He's no Jerry Grinstein or the other guy (the JAL CEO) and I get it now. He has no real vested interests in the company and the BOD knew there wouldn't be anyone in their right mind that would come nd try to fix the mess that is PNCL.

That's why I said he would have otherwise left had it not been for the salary bump so we cat expect much; especially a sign of good will when the man prob wouldn't have been there today. (as pointed out by enilria).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 89, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13135 times:

If the Q400s stick around with another UAX partner, that means someone else is willing to fly them at a rate lower than Pinnacle could. If United pulls off such a transaction, good for them.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 90, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13055 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 89):
He has no real vested interests in the company and the BOD knew there wouldn't be anyone in their right mind that would come nd try to fix the mess that is PNCL.

I'm really not trying to make any point. I'm curious what people would be willing to pay for someone, anyone, to fix 9E.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13002 times:

I am going to hypothesize that the DH4 flying is going to end up with Republic/Lynx. There is no way any carrier can get a DH4 program going from scratch in 12-15 weeks, so that rules out any carrier that does not currently fly DH4s, which essentially leaves Lynx and Horizon. Horizon is expensive and has not shown any interest in non-AS flying. That leaves Republic/Lynx, which already flies the aircraft types, already flies for UA, and has many furloughed DH4 pilots -- which means a fast startup is possible.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 92, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12925 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 91):

Top dollar I would presume. The BOD is responsible to the investors and the investors don't want to see their $$ go down the toilet. Then again, the BOD knows their all liable to be replaced.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12836 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 92):
I am going to hypothesize that the DH4 flying is going to end up with Republic/Lynx.

Didn't Lynx surrender they operating certificate recently? Thought I read or heard that somewhere


User currently offlineXJET From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12771 times:

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 94):
Didn't Lynx surrender they operating certificate recently? Thought I read or heard that somewhere

I thought they did too. I think the Q400 was added to the RP certificate.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12353 times:

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 94):
Didn't Lynx surrender they operating certificate recently? Thought I read or heard that somewhere
Quoting XJET (Reply 95):
I thought they did too. I think the Q400 was added to the RP certificate.

Lynx is gone, the Q400s are under the Republic (RW/YX) certificate (RP is Chautauqua).



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 96, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12108 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 77):
Instead, he comes off looking like a greedy ass who just wants whatever he can milk out of the company and doesn't give a crap about the hardships his employees are going to go through.

I'm not suggesting that it looks good - it doesn't. I'm simply suggesting that some perspective is in order. The question of what salary an executive "deserves" is thorny in good times and a hundred times trickier in bad ones - even outside of bankruptcy (Alan Mulally at Ford comes to mind).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemdtrunner From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11847 times:

What about the Saab flying out of IAH and IAD? That's a lot of routes.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 98, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11774 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 91):
I'm curious what people would be willing to pay for someone, anyone, to fix 9E.

Plenty. But only after the fact, not before.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 97):
I'm simply suggesting that some perspective is in order. The question of what salary an executive "deserves" is thorny in good times and a hundred times trickier in bad ones - even outside of bankruptcy

We're not talking about a salary, though. We're talking about a pay increase. Two very different things. And while the issue of pay increases might by thorny in good times, it's pretty much cut and dry during bad times - don't do it. Fix the company, get it solvent again, let the employees get back at least some of the concessions they made (or had imposed upon them), and then you can get paid. Not before.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 99, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11741 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 99):
Plenty. But only after the fact, not before.

How do you get someone to sign up for that deal?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11730 times:

I think the airline industry is best summed up with this simple phrase: "damned if you do, and damned if you don't"

A vicious cycle, for sure.

I have a good friend who is a Saab captain for Colgan...he is pretty torn up right now. My thoughts are with him as he tries to figure out his next career move. I only wish him the best...I got out of the airline business because I didn't see anything but stormy skies ahead, but I suppose the same could be said for a lot of industries.

Best of luck to everyone affected



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 101, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11699 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 99):
And while the issue of pay increases might by thorny in good times, it's pretty much cut and dry during bad times - don't do it.

That's where we disagree. Sometimes, when things get bad, a company needs to keep its executives very badly and needs to give them raises to do so. Again, I'm not saying it's true here - I don't know the situation at Pinnacle well enough. I just don't think that it's never right to give executives raises in bad times.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 102, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11636 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 100):
How do you get someone to sign up for that deal?

That is generally how the world works. I hire someone to do something for me, I pay them a certain salary, and then once the job is done they get something extra if they did the job well. What I certainly don't do is hire someone, pay them a certain salary, then increase that salary when they don't do their job well in the hope that having the extra money will somehow convince them to do better work.

And if they really can't find someone who believes that they can turn the company around, that's a sign that maybe the company should go out of business rather than drag everyone involved through the mud trying to save it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11635 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 102):
That's where we disagree. Sometimes, when things get bad, a company needs to keep its executives very badly and needs to give them raises to do so. Again, I'm not saying it's true here - I don't know the situation at Pinnacle well enough. I just don't think that it's never right to give executives raises in bad times.

I have to agree with you. When times get tough, and as I have seen all too often in the past 6 months, everyone starts to head for the door. Losing an executive team who has some idea of what the internal working of the airline is, is disastrous and even worse for morale than if (and I'm being broad here...) you losing some pilots etc...

Your C-level people walking out the door sends a clear message to the rest of the workforce.

Plus, the pool of competent people to take the helm of a company is far smaller than the groups below them.

Let's not overlook the simple facts.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12217 posts, RR: 35
Reply 104, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11687 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I feel really bad for the XJ people who were told "Come to Colgan and you get full seniority, or come to Pinnacle and get nothing..."


911, where is your emergency?
User currently onlineboberito6589 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11602 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mdtrunner (Reply 98):
What about the Saab flying out of IAH and IAD? That's a lot of routes.

Does anyone think Silver Airways would be able to pick up enough airplanes and crew members fast enough to replace this flying?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 106, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11453 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 103):
I hire someone to do something for me, I pay them a certain salary, and then once the job is done they get something extra if they did the job well.

I have no idea how the deal is structured but I'd assume the executives would get stock in the post bankruptcy company.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11089 times:

No way could silver airways come in, they are still new to operating the Saabs. The loss of yet another major turbo prop operator is weird.......in a time of risingfuel costs

User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 511 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11060 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 107):
No way could silver airways come in, they are still new to operating the Saabs. The loss of yet another major turbo prop operator is weird.......in a time of risingfuel costs

They are the only regional carrier to apply for the Pinnacle EAS service from Altoona and Johnstown, PA into IAD on a Saab... Check regulations.gov. That Airline Pilot Forum has some additional rumors on Silver and IAD.

Hope those employees affected by this will find work elsewhere.



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10494 times:

Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 105):
Does anyone think Silver Airways would be able to pick up enough airplanes and crew members fast enough to replace this flying?

There has been some grumblings about Silver taking these over within their ranks. It was specualtion to their pilot group, but there was some pre-work that was already in the works there in FLL.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 110, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 74):
I wonder if this was truly the UA/CO (legacy Colgan boogy man) that is what brought down the house? How much did the DL agreements factor into the matter?

I have heard that what happened is that the DL deal has an adjustment clause for cost increases and it kicks in every few years. It's in the 10K. The Pinnacle pilots apparently got a wage increase and it hit the timing very badly because they had just had the adjustment calculated, so Pinnacle had to live without the adjustment on the pilot pay increase. My understanding is that they started bleeding cash because of that situation. They did not consider the DL* contract "a problem" because that would have been fixed if they had made it to the next adjustment. The "new" contract with Delta probably had an immediate adjustment which solved that problem.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 85):
A wise comment over the on Republic/Frontier thread hypothesizes that this whole Pinnacle Ch 11 and rejection of the Q's may be why Republic just recently extended the schedule of the Q400's for Frontier operations through the summer. The Q's were to be gone from Republic by the end of the month I believe...

Was that me?  


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5190 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

Quoting mdtrunner (Reply 97):
What about the Saab flying out of IAH and IAD? That's a lot of routes.

Other than the PA EAS, can anyone tell me what routes UA use the Saab on out of IAH and IAD?

Thanks



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 112, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10368 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 99):
How do you get someone to sign up for that deal?

Easy... There are plenty of much more qualified execs out in this big world that would take Menkes $250,000 salary. Plenty of executives out of work that would love the Pinnacle challenge.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
That's where we disagree. Sometimes, when things get bad, a company needs to keep its executives very badly and needs to give them raises to do so. Again, I'm not saying it's true here - I don't know the situation at Pinnacle well enough. I just don't think that it's never right to give executives raises in bad times.

If they run for the door, fine. Like I said above, there are much better executives unemployed that have much more experience than Menke. Menkes little tear dropping session clearly shows me how full of crap this guy is. Any man that has integrity and genuine interest in saving a company would refuse the raise. JALs CEO comes to mind.

And just as the hard working employees. Pinnacle obviously needs and wants to retain the talent that keep the planes flying. Giving the CEO a fat raise, and turning to the ant workers demanding pay cuts? Oh no...... Menke and the BOD pretty much urinated on the ant hill. I can't blame the Pinnacle employees for being furious.

I hope the unions take a harsh stand against Menke.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 113, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10300 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
If they run for the door, fine. Like I said above, there are much better executives unemployed that have much more experience than Menke.

But again, I wasn't making any point about Menke specifically. I was critiquing the notion that it's never acceptable to give an executive a raise during bad times. We understand that you hate Menke and that you don't believe he should have received a raise. But saying "he shouldn't have received a raise because he's dispensable" is different from saying "he shouldn't have received a raise because the company is struggling."



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1113 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10277 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
Other than the PA EAS, can anyone tell me what routes UA use the Saab on out of IAH and IAD?

IAD-MGW-CKB-MGW-IAD comes to mind. Also on EAS.


User currently offlineKCZG From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):

Out of IAD the SF3s are flying to BGM, ABE, SCE, HPN, CHO, CRW, AOO, JST, SHD, CKB, and MGW.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 116, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10191 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 113):
again, I wasn't making any point about Menke specifically. I was critiquing the notion that it's never acceptable to give an executive a raise during bad times. We understand that you hate Menke and that you don't believe he should have received a raise. But saying "he shouldn't have received a raise because he's dispensable" is different from saying "he shouldn't have received a raise because the company is struggling."

Sorry bud, I was not disagreeing with you. I was just adding to it, and started writing a darned book. Lol! No, I agree with you bud!  



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 117, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10188 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
Republic has been saying for a long time that the Q400 is an expensive aircraft to operate - and was mostly shouted down for it here.

It has nothing to do with the aircraft and everything to do with the contract that Colgan agreed to fly them under. They low balled it and because of that could cover their costs. The reason the Q-400 is so expensive for Republic is they only operate a couple. This in no way validates anything Bedford has ever said about the aircraft. Horizon does just fine with the Q and I'm betting who ever ends up with them next, (I'm guessing SkyWest) will do just fine too.

Pinnacle was looking to end the CRJ-900 flying for Delta because they were losing money. Does that mean the CRJ-900 is an expensive aircraft too? No its the terms Pinnacle agreed to that ended up costing them money.

Trying to undercut everyone to win contracts costs regionals dearly, it cost Mesa big time and now it looks like it cost Pinnacle. That's mismanagement pure and simple, but it's the employees that are going to bear the brunt of those mistakes while management takes raises.


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 118, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10114 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 89):
If the Q400s stick around with another UAX partner, that means someone else is willing to fly them at a rate lower than Pinnacle could. If United pulls off such a transaction, good for them.

It means the opposite. Pinnacle actually stated that they wanted to walk away from the contract. UA would prob try to move the aircraft because they could find a more stable, and reliable partner to work with. 9L's performance and reliability hasn't exactly been stellar.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
I hope the unions take a harsh stand against Menke.

Yeah, then they'll have a lot of fun cashing their unemployment checks. Real great solution.   


User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 119, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10060 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 117):
They low balled it and because of that could cover their costs. The reason the Q-400 is so expensive for Republic is they only operate a couple.

It was expensive when they operated 11. The costs associated with the airplane have been quite higher than was anticipated when it was purchased.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 120, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 118):
Yeah, then they'll have a lot of fun cashing their unemployment checks. Real great solution.

They've got so much leverage! 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 121, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10115 times:

My question is, would SkyWest actually take on the Q400 contract? Much of the Q400 flying is in EWR and historically SkyWest has never had a crew base east of ORD, preferring to keep most of the flying they operate in the western part of the country. Secondly, with their current financial woes wouldn't the cost of acquiring Q400's and then training crews for it and the like make it a proposition where they are not going to be any better off in the long run?

Horizon is logical but I think the niche that they serve now is doing just fine for them and I don't see them wanting to take on the challenge of EWR or partnering up with another major.

Chautauqua is actually in the best position here because they already have crews trained on the Q400, and presumably could come to a deal with United and maybe park some ERJ's in exchange for Q400 flying. I don't know if BB would take on this or not, but based on Bedford's comments, I don't think so.

Air Wisconsin is sitting out there doing nothing at the moment either. They would have to do some serious hiring in a hurry to operate this flying though. However, they do enjoy a good relationship with United despite what happened in UA's bankruptcy earlier because of the Air Wisconsin ground handling operation, which includes IAD. However a lot would have to happen for this to actually happen, so Air Wisconsin may take a pass as well, but it would make sense for them as they need something in a hurry to even stay in business as a regional feeder.

Commutair makes sense, and the crews would only need differences training since they are already a Dash 8 operator. Whether it happens or not remains to be seen.

Silver Airways has the EAS flying. Could they make a play for this flying too? Who knows?


User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 122, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10019 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 121):
I don't know if BB would take on this or not, but based on Bedford's comments, I don't think so.

BB has never had a problem with making money. The contract would have to be right though. If the contract is right, you better believe he would like to see "Operated by Republic Airlines" beside the door of 30 more aircraft. He also has 3 E170s patiently waiting for homes, Im sure he would be more than happy to add those to any contract as well.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 123, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10016 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 121):
as they need something in a hurry to even stay in business as a regional feeder.

What makes you think they really want to be in the business of flying? There is a reason they are the most stable of the regional partners financially. Minimum risk.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 124, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10035 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 117):
It has nothing to do with the aircraft and everything to do with the contract that Colgan agreed to fly them under. They low balled it and because of that could cover their costs. The reason the Q-400 is so expensive for Republic is they only operate a couple.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 119):
It was expensive when they operated 11. The costs associated with the airplane have been quite higher than was anticipated when it was purchased.

I don't know how people define high. The CASM is about 35% lower than a CR7 or E170 at stages under 600 miles. I don't know how that qualifies as high. Porter has them and is an LCC. WestJet is probably going to order them as well. There is nothing wrong with the plane.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 125, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10004 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
Sometimes, when things get bad, a company needs to keep its executives very badly and needs to give them raises to do so.

If the executives oversaw the descent into bad times in the first place, there is no need to reward them for such - in fact, it would be counterproductive. And if they want to head for the door over the lack of a raise, that should be a sign that they don't really care about the company in the first place, and thus they're not the right person for the job.

If you're talking about bringing in a new person with a proven track record to take a company out of the hole, and this new person wants a higher salary than the last guy, that's another matter, and you could make a case for that. But there's still got to be some reason involved when the rank and file are having their lives screwed over.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 126, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 123):

What makes you think they really want to be in the business of flying? There is a reason they are the most stable of the regional partners financially. Minimum risk.

That is very true...but the problem is the ground handling operation only makes up about 11 percent of Air Wiscosin's revenue, with the other 89 percent coming from the flying operation. And when the USAirways contract is up in 2015, without additional flying, not only is Air Wisconsin on the hook for the remainder of the Leases on the CRJ-200's, but they also lose 89 percent of their revenue without additional flying. There is no way the ground handling operation will be able to sustain these leases on their own.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 127, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10019 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 125):
If the executives oversaw the descent into bad times in the first place, there is no need to reward them for such - in fact, it would be counterproductive.

Agreed. But consider this scenario (which happens from time to time): things are bad, and the company brings in a new executive in hopes of keeping the company out of bankruptcy. The executive has no interest in bankruptcy and tries for 6 months or a year to arrange non-bankruptcy restructuring. The company decides to file, and the executive wants to leave. The company believes that he'd be an asset in bankruptcy. What then?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 128, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 124):
The CASM is about 35% lower than a CR7 or E170 at stages under 600 miles.

Not in every case. At Frontier/Republic, even when they had 11 of them, that was not the case. The maintenance, from what I have seen and heard out of Frontier, was far more frequent than with the E-Jets.

Is it a bad aircraft? No, absolutely not. But, it is not the darling many make it out to be. There is a reason the aircraft's sales are where they are today, and why Republic could not find a buyer for theirs.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 129, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9876 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 121):
Secondly, with their current financial woes wouldn't the cost of acquiring Q400's and then training crews for it and the like make it a proposition where they are not going to be any better off in the long run?

What financial woes? Their knees just got scraped; the legs didn't fall off.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 130, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9769 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 127):
Agreed. But consider this scenario (which happens from time to time): things are bad, and the company brings in a new executive in hopes of keeping the company out of bankruptcy. The executive has no interest in bankruptcy and tries for 6 months or a year to arrange non-bankruptcy restructuring. The company decides to file, and the executive wants to leave. The company believes that he'd be an asset in bankruptcy. What then?

If this is the scenario that Menke faced, I have to throw a penalty flag. Menke knew the minute he walked into Pinnacle, he was going to file bankruptcy. I also highly suspect he had the same plan at Frontier. Just like how Siegel has come to F9, after what he did to US. I believe Menke is sinister, and have zero respect for him. Especially now. He is a snake, and joins the long list of corrupt CEOs that slither this country. I also suspect Siegel is up to no good, and has devised a plan to get himself another golden parachute. These men don't care about the business, customers, or the employees. They are finding ways to fatten their own wallets.

Call me paranoid, but this sack of trash has done it before, and will do it again. He started prepping Pinnacle for bankruptcy before ever accepting the job. He put on a convincing show, but knew all along how he was going to play it. He is a pretty good actor, especially after the Academy Award cry he performed during the employee conference call. Maybe he should consider Hollywood? No doubt now in my mind that he had set up F9 to go into bankruptcy. He is a shaddy individual. Truth is, F9 employees hated his guts for the bankruptcy, forced concessions, and broken promises.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 131, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 130):
Call me paranoid

You're paranoid.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 130):
These men don't care about the business, customers, or the employees. They are finding ways to fatten their own wallets.

This is laughable. 400k is not "fattening your wallet" as a CEO. That's next to nothing for the amount of garbage that comes his way from people like you.

THIS is fattening your wallet:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/12/...ion-11_Stephen-J-Hemsley_NBHE.html

$102M in one year.


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 132, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9673 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 35):
I'm sure you mean CommutAir which operates the -200 & -300 varients, but not not the Q400.

Yep, sure did thanks for the correction.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 133, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9681 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 130):
I also highly suspect he had the same plan at Frontier.

Was he colluding with the credit card processing company whose holdback change caused the filing?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 134, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 127):
consider this scenario (which happens from time to time): things are bad, and the company brings in a new executive in hopes of keeping the company out of bankruptcy. The executive has no interest in bankruptcy and tries for 6 months or a year to arrange non-bankruptcy restructuring. The company decides to file, and the executive wants to leave. The company believes that he'd be an asset in bankruptcy. What then?

Offer them a nice pay increase, to be delivered when the company is solvent again. Until then, they stay on the same salary they've been taking.

And if they don't want that, then that shows their disinterest in really seeing the company through the bankruptcy process. In other words, they wouldn't be an asset in bankruptcy, and getting someone else who actually would is probably the better thing to do.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 135, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9690 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 129):

What financial woes? Their knees just got scraped; the legs didn't fall off.

No...but I am not convinced that the ASA/Expressjet integration is causing all the losses based on their financials and their own statements, and those statements indicate reasons for the losses include mx costs on the CRJs (Which ExpressJet had none of), and the EMBs (Which again, ExpressJet did not have), and also pilots getting senior on the seniority list, which increases costs as well.

I am not saying the integration issues at ExpressJet are not hurting the bottom line, but based on the info that I have seen, this is only one cause of many that OO management will need to address going forward.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 136, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9661 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 134):
And if they don't want that, then that shows their disinterest in really seeing the company through the bankruptcy process.

But how is that a bad thing? Bankruptcy sucks. The only individuals who benefit from bankruptcy are the lawyers. Except for those who feel a very high degree of loyalty to the company (lifelong employees), I can't imagine why any employee who has options for other employment would voluntarily live through a bankruptcy.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 137, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 136):
But how is that a bad thing?

You want someone with, as you put it:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 136):
a very high degree of loyalty to the company

If your management isn't loyal to the company, but only loyal to the paychecks they get, then their loss will not be a great one.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 138, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9607 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 137):
If your management isn't loyal to the company, but only loyal to the paychecks they get, then their loss will not be a great one.

How can you make that statement categorically? Money makes the world go round. Sometimes, a mercenary with a certain skill set is what you need. Other times, someone with more institutional knowledge and loyalty is appropriate.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 139, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9587 times:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 118):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 112):
I hope the unions take a harsh stand against Menke.

Yeah, then they'll have a lot of fun cashing their unemployment checks. Real great solution.

The unions have got to be careful not to do anything stupid that would drive the airline into the dust. That's why BK is a very tumultuous time for employees. I just wish unions would be smarter about this whole ordeal.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 138):
Money makes the world go round.

See my point above.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 140, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9542 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 128):
Not in every case. At Frontier/Republic, even when they had 11 of them, that was not the case. The maintenance, from what I have seen and heard out of Frontier, was far more frequent than with the E-Jets.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 128):
There is a reason the aircraft's sales are where they are today

I can't find the Lynx Q400 filings, but if you look at QX which had both aircraft (Cr7 and Q400) you will see that the fuel savings is much greater than the additional mntc expense. Comparing on a per block hour basis the mntc is about $300 more per hour on the Q400 which is crappy, but the fuel burn is $500 less. Overall, on a block hour op cost basis, the Q400 is 20% cheaper at QX. The gap grows with fuel prices. It's supposed to be more like the 35% I quoted, but the higher mntc cost is eating into it. It's still cheaper, though. Additionally, the Q400 is cheaper to buy than the CR7.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 130):
Menke knew the minute he walked into Pinnacle, he was going to file bankruptcy.

Again, not a big fan of Menke, but I know for sure that he did not know that. Again, you should know that is the case because he brought Ted Christie along as CFO and he bailed out for Spirit. Christie would not have gone there at all if he knew they were going into Ch11. That's not a CFO gig anybody would want.


User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 141, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9482 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 140):
It's supposed to be more like the 35% I quoted, but the higher mntc cost is eating into it. It's still cheaper, though.

I don't doubt it is cheaper. But, it is not as dramatically cheaper as many believe. What I most often hear is that costs are higher than expected, and the costs gap with the larger RJs smaller than expected.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 142, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9470 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 133):
Was he colluding with the credit card processing company whose holdback change caused the filing?

I highly suspect he or someone directed by him did. It was so well played.

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 131):
This is laughable. 400k is not "fattening your wallet" as a CEO. That's next to nothing for the amount of garbage that comes his way from people like you.

It may not seem big to you, but that is a huge increase for a CEO of a regional that just filed bankruptcy. I don't care if he took on the additional role as CFO, or even has taken janitorial duties... It is not justified. It is a sham, he is as dirty as they get.

I have investigated thousands of dishonest employees in my years as a Corporate Loss Prevention Investigator. The red flags are huge. If I had the chance to investigate his actions at Frontier and Pinnacle..... I can guarantee you I would uncover enough to warrant arrest and prosecution. I smell something fishy. To make such accusations is dangerous, but I am 110% confident. I am screaming foul, and hope some how he gets nailed. This would not be the first time an airline CEO has been busted.

So yes, something criminal is happening. So many of the same individuals were behind the helm during bk filing. Was Menke not involved with RAH before going to F9? I don't have time to look, but I think there is more to these bankruptcies than meets the eyes.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 143, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9441 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 142):
I highly suspect he or someone directed by him did. It was so well played.

Besides your suspicion, what evidence do you have?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 144, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9441 times:
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Quoting F9Animal (Reply 142):
Was Menke not involved with RAH before going to F9?

No.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 145, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9364 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 143):
Besides your suspicion, what evidence do you have?

Evidence is something that is in Pinnacles corp offices, which I don't have access to. Hopefully an investigator will uncover it. These guys are good at covering their tracks, but eventually get caught. Like I said, I am confident in my suspicions. 11 years as a investigator, 11 years that my confidence lead to major arrests and convictions. I smell something, and it is not jet fuel. Hunches and suspicions started my investigations, uncovered dishonesty, and resulted in charges. I won't stroke my back, but I have nailed a major airline once before.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7468 posts, RR: 3
Reply 146, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9300 times:

I do not doubt that you have a hunch on this.

Based on your experience, (which I can not prove, but am not doubting) I expect that you are probably right.

Question is, who is going to want to dig into that can of worms?.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 147, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9271 times:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 131):
This is laughable. 400k is not "fattening your wallet" as a CEO. That's next to nothing for the amount of garbage that comes his way from people like you.

For a guy that has to take a job at a regional carrier it is..

But hey, for us peasants that have to work 5 days a week plus OT to make a decent living it's a lot. Especially considering again that he is at a US REGIONAL carrier were most of his workers would qualify for food stamps (including low time pilots and fight attendants).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 148, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9003 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 146):
do not doubt that you have a hunch on this.

Based on your experience, (which I can not prove, but am not doubting) I expect that you are probably right.

Question is, who is going to want to dig into that can of worms?.

I am sure agencies in the federal government could. I wish I could! I would never throw such an allegation if I did not suspect it. Most of the investigations I conducted were based on suspicion. The rest were based on red flags. Every investigation lead to an arrest. I am not only suspicious, I see plenty of red flags.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinesuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8786 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 141):

And the CFO of Delta just gave up his position is there some kinda of relevance? This was not cooked up in a basement of some south atlanta house, they have had this one cooking up for a bit


User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 150, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

Quoting suisjes (Reply 149):
And the CFO of Delta just gave up his position is there some kinda of relevance? This was not cooked up in a basement of some south atlanta house, they have had this one cooking up for a bit

Was there a quoting error? I am not sure what I said that you are responding to. I was talking about Q400 costs.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 151, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8600 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 119):

11 is still too small of a fleet for how Lynx operated them. They had an entirely separate management structure for Lynx. Those costs needed to be spread over 11 aircraft. That Q-400 operation was doomed since it remained that small. Bedford made it smaller. That isnt the fault of the airplane but the structure of the operation.

Plenty of other carriers do well with the plane.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 152, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8546 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 141):
I don't doubt it is cheaper. But, it is not as dramatically cheaper as many believe. What I most often hear is that costs are higher than expected, and the costs gap with the larger RJs smaller than expected.

The bigger issue is customer aversion toward turboprops, but just because it is more expensive than it was supposed to be does not make it a "high cost airplane". It is still cheap compared to similarly sized airplanes.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 142):
Was Menke not involved with RAH before going to F9?
Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 142):
Was Menke not involved with RAH before going to F9?

No.

mariner

First of all, I'm not buying into the criminal conspiracy that is being tossed around. Regarding SM's connections to RJET, I believe there is one. If memory serves, Menke was at WestPac when they were being acquired by Frontier and Frontier was then controlled by Brian Bedford and a company called Wexford that was a predecessor company of Republic. So, I feel fairly certain that Menke and Bedford had a relationship of some sort from that. I say that because Menke quickly ended up at Frontier after that which tells me that he was probably part of the integration team on the Planning side. Certainly once he was at Frontier (that was his first stint there that lasted 5 to 7 years) he would have definitely interacted with BB. SM then left for Air Canada and then returned.

Having said all of that, I know the Frontier folk did not get along with Wexford at all and were stuck with them because they had essentially injected cash into the company to save it because the drawn out battle in Denver/COS had drained the company's cash. Frontier resisted the control Wexford exerted and eventually bought them out to eliminate what they considered to be a negative influence.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 153, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8541 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 151):
Plenty of other carriers do well with the plane.

   Agreed. If they had gotten some CPA agreement for the plane with others they would have gotten proper economies of scale.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4998 posts, RR: 28
Reply 154, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8469 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 152):
First of all, I'm not buying into the criminal conspiracy that is being tossed around. Regarding SM's connections to RJET, I believe there is one. If memory serves, Menke was at WestPac when they were being acquired by Frontier and Frontier was then controlled by Brian Bedford and a company called Wexford that was a predecessor company of Republic. So, I feel fairly certain that Menke and Bedford had a relationship of some sort from that. I say that because Menke quickly ended up at Frontier after that which tells me that he was probably part of the integration team on the Planning side. Certainly once he was at Frontier (that was his first stint there that lasted 5 to 7 years) he would have definitely interacted with BB. SM then left for Air Canada and then returned.

Having said all of that, I know the Frontier folk did not get along with Wexford at all and were stuck with them because they had essentially injected cash into the company to save it because the drawn out battle in Denver/COS had drained the company's cash. Frontier resisted the control Wexford exerted and eventually bought them out to eliminate what they considered to be a negative influence.

I am not asking anyone to buy anything. However, you suspect wrong doing back at Western Pacific? Which I find very interesting. Criminals don't change their behaviors, they perfect their crimes. There have been too many of the same faces at these bankrupt companies. I don't find it coincidental either. I respect your knowledge, and too am very suspicious of Western Pacific and Frontier dealings. Is Wexford not a common denominator? Was Wexford involved with YX too? Oh man, there is dirty stuff going on. I think some investors have gotten a short stick!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 155, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 138):
Money makes the world go round.

Not in the airline industry. There is no way that an airline could ever compete with other industries in terms of cushy executive jobs. Either the pay is going to be much lower, or the workload is going to be much higher (or perhaps both). Those who do well do so because they like the challenge, or they feel a certain attachment to the industry. From a strict numbers sense, there's no reason to get involved. But obviously lots of people still do.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 138):
Sometimes, a mercenary with a certain skill set is what you need.

Then bring in a mercenary. But don't pay the old mercenary more thinking he'll do any better, or that he'll develop any new skills that you might need.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 156, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8319 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 153):

Either that or used Frontier management to run the operation. No need for Lynx to have separate management structure. TSH does a similar thing with TSA and GoJet. Both use pretty much the same management structure but for a few people that's one of the reasons why an operation as small as TSA and GoJet works. Doubling up on everything is costly.

Lynx either needed to grow or disappear. Since Bedford sees no value in turbo props he decided to wind down the operation, however that in no way means the Q-400 is a bad plane. It was just operated poorly.

Pinnacle's problem, well really Colgan's problem, is they bid too low in order to win the Q-400 contract. There was no room for any unexpected cost increases or natural cost rises like employee longevity increases. Pinnacle did the same thing with their contract for 16 CRJ-900s. They underbid carriers like ASA and SkyWest but bid too low. Now employees and shareholders are paying the price.

Mesa made a similar mistake by securing aircraft for leases longer than they had contracts for since they could get a cheaper deal by agreeing to a longer term. They assumed (incorrectly) that they'd be able to re-secure CPAs in order to cover the rest of lease. They were left on the hook when they couldn't get contracts extended.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 157, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8237 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 156):
SH does a similar thing with TSA and GoJet. Both use pretty much the same management structure but for a few people that's one of the reasons why an operation as small as TSA and GoJet works. Doubling up on everything is costly.

  

Say what you like about the employee relations side of the TSA/GoJet saga (and there's a lot to be said there), but as far as administration, TSH handles the two certificates exactly correctly.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 158, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8224 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 152):
The bigger issue is customer aversion toward turboprops, but just because it is more expensive than it was supposed to be does not make it a "high cost airplane". It is still cheap compared to similarly sized airplanes.

Which was a prime cited reason BB had for replacing the Q400 with E190s. At RAH, the E190s have similar CASM, with more revenue potential, and significantly better customer satisfaction.

Quoting enilria (Reply 153):
   Agreed. If they had gotten some CPA agreement for the plane with others they would have gotten proper economies of scale.

That is also what BB said. He shopped it around for a while. Nobody was interested.

Quoting norcal (Reply 156):
Lynx either needed to grow or disappear. Since Bedford sees no value in turbo props he decided to wind down the operation, however that in no way means the Q-400 is a bad plane. It was just operated poorly.

The operation was wound down when they could not find a CPA partner interested in the Q400. It was not simply because he apparently does not like turboprops. I do not claim the Q400 is a bad plane. I said, it did not live up to its promise at some airlines, Frontier/Lynx certainly being one of them. At DEN, the small fleet of 11 was already operating flights they were not intended for when purchased. The fleet at Frontier could not reasonably grow.

I dont claim the Q400 is a bad airplane, I say it is not as good as it is believed (especially by many on this board). Reality is simply proving otherwise. Sales tell a dramatic story, and over the last few years, Q400 has gotten its arse kicked pretty good by our European friends. Several members here swear by the fact the Flybe will be using part of their large E175 order to REPLACE Q400s. Island Air in Hawaii tried Q400s, they went away, they are now an ATR customer. Air New Zealand, a Q300 operator, is now an ATR72-600 customer.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 159, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8058 times:

Are the Q400s leased/owned by Pinnacle or UA?

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 160, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8060 times:

Quoting norcal (Reply 156):
Either that or used Frontier management to run the operation. No need for Lynx to have separate management structure.

I can tell you that the reason they did what they did is that they didn't want FAPA making a claim to represent Lynx pilots so they thought it needed to be as separate as it was. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if they went further than they needed to, but F9 was very conservative on such matters.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 158):
Which was a prime cited reason BB had for replacing the Q400 with E190s. At RAH, the E190s have similar CASM, with more revenue potential, and significantly better customer satisfaction.

I'm not sure that is relevant. You can always get a lower CASM with a bigger airplane. The bigger airplane part is the reason why that doesn't work so well. The E190 is 25 more seats than the Q400, 33% bigger. That's not a minor difference.

Conversely, if you can get a smaller airplane at the same CASM as a bigger one, that is usually a deal you can't pass up.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 158):
That is also what BB said. He shopped it around for a while. Nobody was interested.

It was cursory at best. He wasn't really interested in a deal. Mariner reported a deal was out there to get which I believe was UA* in LAX and that possibly could have led to a joint Lynx code share in DEN. We don't know what the prices offered were, but from what I've heard BB wasn't really interested in a deal.


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 3
Reply 161, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8047 times:

Quoting JA (Reply 159):
Are the Q400s leased/owned by Pinnacle or UA?

Reply 45 & 64:

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 64):

Quoting JBo (Reply 31):
Assuming UA owns the Q400s, I imagine they will find a new home. The question is with whom?

Below:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 45):
IIRC, Pinnacle purchased the Q400's. May have done a sale/leaseback transaction, but UA doesn't own them.

   UA/CO does not own the planes. Most would *I believe* go back to BBD should 9E liquidate or UA break the contract on grounds of breach. (BK is a severable breach in most of these contracts)


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 162, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7983 times:
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Quoting F9Animal (Reply 154):
However, you suspect wrong doing back at Western Pacific? Which I find very interesting. Criminals don't change their behaviors, they perfect their crimes. There have been too many of the same faces at these bankrupt companies. I don't find it coincidental either. I respect your knowledge, and too am very suspicious of Western Pacific and Frontier dealings.

Sorry F9, the reason there are so many familiar faces around is because there is a limited pool of talent.

What Enilria says is true - SM was at Westpac and BB was at Chautauqua - but there was only a tiny window of opportunity for the two to meet.

Wexford didi't buy Chautauqua until May 1998 - announced in January 1998 - and Westpac went bust in February 1998.

I'm not aware of any connection between Westpac and Wexford (there may have been one, but I don't know of it) and while it is true that Wexford made an emergency loan to Frontier in 1998, it was repaid with great speed (within a year, from memory).

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 163, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7938 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 158):
Island Air in Hawaii tried Q400s,

IIRC they ordered some but never took delivery because of the financial crisis. I think ATRs are a better choice for inter island flying.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineflashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 164, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7956 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 162):
I'm not aware of any connection between Westpac and Wexford (there may have been one, but I don't know of it)

I do recall that Wexford made a play to provide DIP financing to Westpac in Chapter 11 in an attempt to get control of Westpac assets over to F9. This was obviously just after Frontier and Sam Addoms (very rightly so) ran screaming from the proposed Westpac disaster-of-a-merger.

Westpac management apparently was not impressed. Bob Peiser, CEO of Westpac at the time, called it a dirty trick.