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UA Long-Haul Changes  
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3843 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19903 times:

IAD-ACC service ends July 1. EWR-CPH ends Sept 23
Suspended service for the winter season for some trans-Atlantic markets, such as EWR-FCO and IAD-DME.

And, as known internally, redeploy some of the Boeing 763s freed up by these changes to replace Boeing 757s now on certain trans-Atlantic routes such as EWR-FRA (Frankfurt, Germany), IAD-AMS (Amsterdam) and one EWR-LHR (London) aircraft.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1268 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19789 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Thread starter):
IAD-ACC service ends July 1. EWR-CPH ends Sept 23
Suspended service for the winter season for some trans-Atlantic markets, such as EWR-FCO and IAD-DME.

The seasonal cuts aren't surprising but cutting CPH and IAD-ACC kind of are


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19601 times:

Consistent with last weeks announced capacity guidance.
Discontinuing some routes that are under performing financially and reducing flights on other routes based on seasonal demand.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19542 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Thread starter):

IAD-ACC service ends July 1. EWR-CPH ends Sept 23
Suspended service for the winter season for some trans-Atlantic markets, such as EWR-FCO and IAD-DME.

And, as known internally, redeploy some of the Boeing 763s freed up by these changes to replace Boeing 757s now on certain trans-Atlantic routes such as EWR-FRA (Frankfurt, Germany), IAD-AMS (Amsterdam) and one EWR-LHR (London) aircraft.

All in all not too bad. Surprising about IAD-ACC. I would have thought this route a goldmine due to the large African population in DC, but I guess it's mostly VFR traffic.

Interesting that EWR-FCO will be suspended but IAD-FCO will remain. Also a bit weird that they will offer First class on only one of their multiple daily EWR-LHR flights...And finally, glad that IAD-AMS will be back to a widebody aircraft!


User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19538 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 1):
The seasonal cuts aren't surprising but cutting CPH and IAD-ACC kind of are

You said it...along with EWR/ATH...even the seasonal IAD/DME is surprising...maybe that's a route they should move to EWR instead...there are a number of routes from EWR that desperately need upgauging..LHR has only 1 widebody, CDG has been reduced to 757's, AMS and MAD need widebodies as well....I was under the impression that one of the main reasons CO merged was the lack of wide body a/c, and that UA had plenty to spare...I'm not really seeing it work out this way, as far as these "redeployments" are concerned... apparently those segments are not producing, or UA wouldn't have cut them, but there doesn't seem to be any excess widebody capacity in the combined UA/CO fleet either...


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19431 times:
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Quoting washingtonian (Reply 3):
nteresting that EWR-FCO will be suspended but IAD-FCO will remain. Also a bit weird that they will offer First class on only one of their multiple daily EWR-LHR flights...And finally, glad that IAD-AMS will be back to a widebody aircraft!

I'm not surprised about only one EWR-LHR segment offering P. PMCO seemed to do fine with a BizFirst without the need for a P cabin. They will continue to do well with the JWY offering in their EWR-LHR market.


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19331 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 5):
I'm not surprised about only one EWR-LHR segment offering P. PMCO seemed to do fine with a BizFirst without the need for a P cabin. They will continue to do well with the JWY offering in their EWR-LHR market.

I just think it's generally better to have a consistant product across the board as much as possible. Obviously there are a lot of kinks to work out with the merger in the coming years...


User currently onlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19151 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Consistent with last weeks announced capacity guidance.

I thought international capacity was actually going to grow by a percentage or two? I am surprised about the suspension of EWR-FCO. At least make it 3x/4x weekly, I would imagine it has a larger O&D numbers than IAD, but I don't have anything to back that up.

Doesn't SAS have EWR-CPH pretty well covered?


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 18940 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 7):
I thought international capacity was actually going to grow by a percentage or two? I am surprised about the suspension of EWR-FCO. At least make it 3x/4x weekly, I would imagine it has a larger O&D numbers than IAD, but I don't have anything to back that up.

At first it surprised me as well. But come to think of it. There's no competition out of IAD, whereas in New York AZ/DL are the elephants in the room. PMCO had no alternative but fly from EWR, UA can opt for the gateway with the least amount of competition.


User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18802 times:

No ORD Int'l cuts! Woo Hoo (not that there is much to cut)!

User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18693 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 8):
There's no competition out of IAD, whereas in New York AZ/DL are the elephants in the room.

Plus if the flight is full of connecting passengers and low on O&D, it makes more sense to route them through Dulles...


User currently offlineflybhx764 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 258 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18125 times:

Will UA upgrade flights with the Olympic games coming up?

User currently offlinenethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17833 times:

Too bad with IAD-DME. Russian market is tricky I guess. Even SQ cut down from Daily to 5 weekly?
No wonder, I always find low fare with 100% status miles on UA from DME to USA.


With SAS covering EWR-CPH/ARN/OSL, the NYC-Scandinavian market is pretty well covered by a Star alliance member so maybe better off with just code-sharing with SK and deploy aircraft for other market?
At one point, SAS used to have 2 daily CPH-EWR?



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17462 times:

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 4):
there are a number of routes from EWR that desperately need upgauging..LHR has only 1 widebody

Well, according to a.net wisdom, there's no difference between a narrowbody and a widebody flying TATL. It's all about "frequency" on this route allegedly.  


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2770 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16534 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
Well, according to a.net wisdom, there's no difference between a narrowbody and a widebody flying TATL. It's all about "frequency" on this route allegedly.

Very true! UA can compete far more effectively for lucrative business contracts if it offers 5x daily flights (which may include 4x 757 service) instead of 3x 777 service (for example). Additionally, the capabilities of the 767 and 777 can be better utilized on other routes.


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16485 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Thread starter):
And, as known internally, redeploy some of the Boeing 763s freed up by these changes to replace Boeing 757s now on certain trans-Atlantic routes such as EWR-FRA (Frankfurt, Germany), IAD-AMS (Amsterdam) and one EWR-LHR (London) aircraft.

It's about time that a 767 replaced a 757 on the EWR to LHR route. Finally an end to the unscheduled fuel stops that resulted from the 757s being pushed to their limit! And also a more comfortable ride across the pond.


User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2154 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16186 times:

interesting...only ACC for the summer so only one market gonna get the 767 for summer I guess...rest will have to wait until DME goes...still does not really balance out.

User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15723 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 3):
Also a bit weird that they will offer First class on only one of their multiple daily EWR-LHR flights

I hope that its a pre-cursor to seeing all the LHR - EWR flights completely transferred over to 3 class birds at some stage, I am sure that if one route warrants it, its this one.


User currently offlineB735 From Denmark, joined Oct 2010, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15226 times:

Quote:
EWR-CPH ends Sept 23

Something don't add up here... According to airlineroutesnet update 2nd April :

Update at 0705GMT 02APR12

As per 02APR12 GDS timetable and inventory display, initial changes to UNITED’s Winter 2012/13 European Operation as follows. Note additional changes to come in the coming months.

Chicago – Brussels Service increases from 6 weekly in W11 to Daily in W12
Chicago – Munich eff 04NOV12 Reduces from Daily in W11 to 6 weekly in W12
Houston – Paris CDG
eff 15OCT12 Reduces from Daily to 6 weekly
03NOV12 – 07JAN13 Boeing 767-200ER operating instead of -400ER

Newark – Barcelona eff 12NOV12 Reduces from 6 weekly in W11 to 4 weekly in W12
Newark – Copenhagen eff 04NOV12 Reduces from 5 weekly in W11 to 4 weekly in W12
Newark – Frankfurt eff 09NOV12 UA050/051 Boeing 767-400ER replaces 777-200ER
Newark – Geneva eff 12NOV12 Reduces from Daily in W11 to 6 weekly in W12
Newark – Hamburg eff 12NOV12 Reduces from 5 weekly in W11 to 4 weekly in S12
Newark – Oslo eff 14JAN13 Reduces from Daily to 6 weekly
Newark – Paris CDG
eff 04JAN13 Boeing 767-400ER replaces 757-200 on UA056/057
eff 08JAN13 Overall service reduces from 2 to 1 Daily
UA056 EWR1805 – 0735+1CDG 764 D
UA057 CDG0925 – 1155EWR 764 D

Newark – Stuttgart eff 07NOV12 Reduces from 5 weekly in W11 to 4 weekly in S12
Washington Dulles – Manchester Service operates 5 weekly in Winter 2012 season
Washington Dulles – Paris 1 Daily 767-300ER service


Also, flights still available for booking at united.com

[Edited 2012-04-03 02:12:41]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32193 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14901 times:

Quoting B735 (Reply 18):
Something don't add up here... According to airlineroutesnet update 2nd April :

It should be zero'd out shortly and removed from res systems over the weekend. Unfortunately, UA is pulling out of CPH.



a.
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14857 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
Quoting B735 (Reply 18):
Something don't add up here... According to airlineroutesnet update 2nd April :

It should be zero'd out shortly and removed from res systems over the weekend. Unfortunately, UA is pulling out of CPH.

Unfortunately is the right word. This is surprising. Not surprising that Cologne or Bristol didn't work out. But Copenhagen is a major European capitol, and the equipment is only a 757.

I have wondered about Moscow. PMCO was never to warm to serving Moscow in the first place. They were planning on serving Moscow with a DC10-30 in the 90's and it never started.

[Edited 2012-04-03 02:55:52]

User currently offlinearn777 From Sweden, joined Jul 2010, 196 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14674 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
But Copenhagen is a major European capitol, and the equipment is only a 757.

You are a victim of CPH and Copenhagen Connected's marketing division my friend...


User currently offlineg2scandinavia From Norway, joined Jun 2010, 533 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14263 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
This is surprising. Not surprising that Cologne or Bristol didn't work out. But Copenhagen is a major European capitol, and the equipment is only a 757.



Well, many overestimate the size of Copenhagen based on the fact that its a hub for SAS.
However as a City, it's similar in size to Oslo and Helsinki. Stockholm is the only major European capitol within the Nordic countries. Copenhagen do however have the benefit of being linked to the City of Malmø in a region called Øresund.

CPH are probably one of the best airports in Europe when it comes to incentives and support for new airlines.
This has attracted many new services to the airport. The problem seems to be when the support period expires with the result of the airlines pulling out. Said in another way, airlines are not able to operate profitably faced with equal market conditions at CPH.

Delta have pullet out its year around service to ATL. JFK have been cut to operate only a few weeks this summer.
Now, United will pull out as well. It's especially alarmingly for CPH that United are presenting low demand for this summer as an argument for suspending the service. Especially because this summer will See less competition with DL out of its way for most of the summer. Also Air China pulled out of CPH before the service saw its first flight due to poor demand. SIA are also on the edge of pulling out unless they manage to agree on a deal with SAS to feed in more passengers.

CPH have one big problem, they think that new IC services will generate enough new traffic to keep it sustainable.
Nor Copenhagen or the airport as a hub are able to generate that traffic. The yield stream from Norway and Sweden are changing together with a better direct network from theese airports. Many people within the industry have warned of the consequence of this, often referred to as the "Copenhagen effect". With Berlin Airport to open shortly, I really do hope that the management of CPH starts to care about existing carriers rather than gaining new services at any cost.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32193 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 14069 times:

Copenhagen has a very large market to the United States, but it's largely leisure. MIACPH and LAXCPH are near 100 PDEW, but nobody wants to fly it at those low fares. It's rare for a trans-Atlantic market as large as either to not have non-stop service.


a.
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4792 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 13961 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
Copenhagen has a very large market to the United States, but it's largely leisure. MIACPH and LAXCPH are near 100 PDEW, but nobody wants to fly it at those low fares

Indeed, when Delta started its CPH-ATL service years ago, it got a large share of the CPH-Florida traffic via ATL, and was able to sustain the 763ER service year-round, but only when fuel prices were moderate. Of course now with fuel the way it is, many of these lower-yielding routes have simply lost their viability.


25 ARN : Please guys, let us end this Scandinavian civil war. There are more factors to demand than just the size of the business community. Competition, proxi
26 g2scandinavia : According to CPH, the actual number are 56.806 pax. The number are somewhat missleading as they include current transfer traffic to MIA through CPH a
27 mogandoCI : Even with AZ/DL competition, Rome is still a major European port. I'm surprised how the shortage of widebodies is forcing UA to completely cut it fro
28 klwright69 : Why is IAD dropping ACC? Does anyone else know the particulars? I find this an interesting. UA is not combining it with any other African markets as a
29 RyanairGuru : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that EWR-UK/Ireland flights have ever needed a fuel stop, and if they did it was certainly only a one off.
30 mogandoCI : Perhaps to align east coast to Africa operations (tiny to begin with) to a single airport ? Other than oil-specific routes like IAH-LOS, it barely ma
31 TOMMY767 : IAD-ACC is the most disapointing. They have been operating this route for a few years now. EWR-FCO is the most suprising. I figured the local demand o
32 klwright69 : Of course this is true. Others have complained about all the 757's on EWR/LHR and only one 777. I always responded that it is a matter of time that t
33 TOMMY767 : The fact that they cut CPH and not ARN or OSL is a little surprising. Wonder why CPH is more limited to have two competitors in from EWR than the oth
34 united787 : A lot of A-Netters seemed to think that PMUA had tons of spare widebodies laying around, but I am not sure where that school of thought came from. II
35 airzim : Rome is a horrifically bad business market. The major financial and industrial market in Italy are all in/around MIlan. With the retirement of the 76
36 TOMMY767 : Fact of the matter is, there aren't enough seats up front on EWR-LHR for the 757. To DUB, LIS, MAN, EDI, MAD sure, fine, that's great. But LHR is a s
37 usairways85 : NYC-LHR is all about frequency, just look at the shuttle operation AA/BA have over at JFK Yes, the JV's give increased flexibility in righsizing mark
38 TOMMY767 : And yet they are on 3-class 777 and 744 with BA/AA. UA is mainly 757. That's a huge difference.
39 JasonCRH : There might be a lot of Italians in New York, but if they either are not traveling or not paying high enough fares to be profitable during the low sea
40 airzim : I think there's a perception versus reality problem with LHR. United has two big hurdles with LHR out of New York. 1) EWR is at a yield disadvantage
41 mogandoCI : When one is crossing so many time zones, I still can't see the value of flights every 30 minutes even during peak times. There's definitely some cons
42 TOMMY767 : I didn't see this part. This is also a good move. A 757 on EWR-FRA is just pathetic.
43 klwright69 : Maintaining IAD, while suspending EWR to FCO, makes sense, it's one of the benefits of the merger. People keep talking about the best place to funnel
44 GolfBravoRomeo : That's the second flight that was added recently (maybe not that recently). The other flight is a 777.
45 rdh3e : Fits the previous UA strategy where there was seasonal ORD-FCO service during the summer. They didnt do it last year, probably because of the EWR fli
46 greenwichsud : AA is bankrupt (and could be acquired) and UA seems to be outperforming BA financially. How do we know that the AA/BA duo are necessarily making all
47 Post contains images nycdave : Amen. Any time someone says "UA should put one of their widebodies on (insert PMCO route here)", they better have a PMUA route in mind they're going
48 B747forever : Will it be back for S13?
49 CODC10 : I think the EWR-LHR frequency is going to be a 30J/184Y sUA reconfigured 67E. I'd be surprised to see just one frequency get F, but it's not out of t
50 N62NA : Well... the 757s don't have any issues doing EWR-LHR-EWR at all. Correct. Why do they need to compete with BA? People flying from New Jersey don't ra
51 LJ : I guess they loose too many pax on IAD-AMS to KL?
52 TOMMY767 : BA flies 3x 767/777 to EWR everyday. So yes, apparently they do compete well in NJ and are viewed well by many.
53 hohd : UA is losing in the East Coast to the European carriers which have robust traffic. Look at IAH-CDG, AF dwarfs UA. And now they are exiting EWR-FCO. It
54 airzim : All these stats are in the aggregate. I was referring specifically to NYC-LHR. It's been a few years, and I can't give any specific details, but I sa
55 CALMSP : there is a difference..............the foreign carriers target pax that are continuing on from the international destination. AF for example is targe
56 greenwichsud : ...another carrier that is, in fact, losing money at the moment.
57 airzim : and if United was funneling all their traffic through a single hub (a la CDG for AF), then they would likely be flying A380s to Paris.
58 LJ : However CO/UA has feed at IAD and EWR which AF doesn't have.....
59 brilondon : This seems a little racist to me. Just because there is a large black population in the DC area doesn't mean that there is a large number of people w
60 greenwichsud : There is in fact a very large black African population in the DC area. Judging by the use of their native tongue and attire, I would assume that many
61 airzim : He's not. There's a sizable Ghanaian populaton in the DC metro area, including Baltimore. In fact Ghana Airways used to fly their DC-10s to BWI when
62 chopchop767 : To be fair, United's refurbished cabins are really comfortable. The new J seats are great. I'll agree that the soft product is hit or miss, but have
63 avek00 : And United just ran Air France off of EWR-CDG altogether...what's your point? This is the big issue from the revenue side of the TATL flying equation
64 drerx7 : Exactly, I wonder what those same folks would have said 30-40 yrs ago aboard 707s, DC8s, and VC10s?
65 MAH4546 : I'm looking at JAN11-DEC11 traffic data which also includes secondary airports (FLL, SNA, etc.) and is exclusively O&D. I have no idea what CPH a
66 gigneil : Perhaps by I think the racism is yours. DC has a huge African, not black, population. NS
67 COalways : This JFK vs EWR is very old. UA/CO does very well in EWR as its the #1 money making hub of any airline in North America so if more business people use
68 LipeGIG : This is a discussion about UA Long Haul Changes. Please, it's not to be used as a EWR vs JFK discussion. We ask you all to please remain on the thread
69 Post contains images SurfandSnow : Well we recently saw DL do A LOT of this, so with the high oil prices and persistent economic troubles throughout Europe I suppose it was only a matte
70 MAH4546 : Ghana is the fifth largest U.S.-Africa market. It's not strange at all. IADACC is the fifth busiest city pairs between the United States and Africa.
71 CO 757-300 : Yes there are ton of us (Italians) here, but a many of us 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants have minimal connections to the country at this point. mo
72 jamake1 : 30 or 40 years ago, 707's and DC-8's were configured with ample seat pitch and the in-flight amenities and services were significantly better than wh
73 laca773 : Since DL served BER for many years as an original PA route, it was a bit surprising to see them axe this longtime route of DL. However, like many on
74 MAH4546 : While the amount of traffic going to those markets as a share of U.S.-Italy traffic grows, make no mistake, during the winter months NYC remains the
75 jamake1 : By MIL, I presume you mean MXP?
76 MAH4546 : MIL combines MXP and LIN traffic.
77 STT757 : JFK-FCO and JFK-MXP are definitlty the two biggest US-Italy markets, however there's no way MIA or LAX are ahead of EWR in terms of travelers to/from
78 izbtmnhd : If the DC/Balt area has a large West African population as people are claiming, why has every attempt to serve that market failed?
79 rdh3e : Just because there is a population doesn't mean there is a viable market.
80 mogandoCI : Probably all split into tiny ethnic groups. With no connection partner at ACC, only people bound for Ghana would really take that flight. Same reason
81 MAH4546 : Between NOV10 and APR11, absolutely, they are. And South Florida has the second largest native Italian born community, so it's not like there's no VF
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