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A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 3  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 73474 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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As part 2 become too long, and it's now archived we are starting a new one

Link to the previous:

A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 2 (by NZ1 Jan 6 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Please continue discussions here.


Enjoy!
LipeGIG
Forum Moderator


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
302 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 73517 times:

Continuing from the previous thread...

Quoting kmz (Reply 254):
It seems that Boing is now more flexible concerning interior customization.

The 787 program permits almost no airline customization, in the cabin or elsewhere. This was a significant strategy shift for Boeing compared to the 777 or 747 programs, where code-1 introductions often include massive engineering packages to accommodate new customer-unique features. Instead, the 787 program has a much more expansive "catalog", from which airlines can (are forced to) select their cabin and other aircraft options. Even items which used to be BFE (buyer furnished equipment) now are "CSE" (customer selectable equipment) and must be selected from the catalog. The 787 also does not have supplier selections for systems (other than for brakes and engines), further reducing the aircraft-to-aircraft differences between different operators' 787s.

This approach permits a basic and stable underlying systems and structures architecture for all aircraft coming through production and is one of the key enablers for the 787 to achieve higher production rates than other twin aisle aircraft. I believe we will see Boeing shift more toward this model in the future, including the next generation 777. It has been my understanding the A350 is taking a similar approach, dramatically reducing the opportunity for BFE and customer-unique customizations in the cabin.

In response to your comment, I would say Boeing is now much less flexible concerning interior customization than they were in the past. Particularly for the 787. However, given what I believe Airbus is doing with the A350, "flexibility" becomes a relative matter, as airlines really have no other options.


User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 73410 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 1):
This approach permits a basic and stable underlying systems and structures architecture for all aircraft coming through production and is one of the key enablers for the 787 to achieve higher production rates than other twin aisle aircraft.

In addition, this approach makes the plane more attractive to lessors and financiers and, ironically, airlines. Less customization means an easier conversion of a frame from one airline to the next. With a more "liquid" form of collateral, banks are exposed to less risk and are more willing to provide financing. This translates into better financing terms allowing customers to lower their acquisition costs. The finance community was an integral part of the initial 787 design and shows the holistic approach Boeing took with the program.

http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archive.../bonding_with_united_airlines.html



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 73389 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 1):
n response to your comment, I would say Boeing is now much less flexible concerning interior customization than they were in the past. Particularly for the 787. However, given what I believe Airbus is doing with the A350, "flexibility" becomes a relative matter, as airlines really have no other options.

Airbus is doing exactly the same thing and for the same reasons, there is a catalog of possible interior choices that airlines can choose from. After the very free choice for the A380 and the cabling and other problems it created ( it was not small part of the reason for the cabling delays) Airbus decided they needed a more restricted model on the A350.

If Boeing had chosen this model for the 787 it must have been much easier for A to go the same way with the 350. kmz seems to have info that not all are happy with the choices in the present A350 catalog.



Non French in France
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 73228 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
not all are happy with the choices in the present A350 catalog

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if this is the case. All widebody operators are deeply invested in their "brand", of which, the cabin is a huge element. Limiting operators to seat and monument suppliers which may not possess the intellectual property or capability of their usual supplier is deeply traumatic for the commercial people at the airline. The technical and finance people are very sensitive to key systems being sole-source, as well. I've watched this drama play out with dozens of carriers, as they get used to the new business model being taken on by the OEMs.

Despite the complaining, in my view this change will benefit everyone...

- - OEM's get a more stable product, lower recurring costs and simplified production.
- - Airlines get a more fungible and more liquid asset.
- - Suppliers get the entire slice of the pie, permitting them to take on greater developmental risk.

The trick to making it work is for Airbus and Boeing to select and manage suppliers in way which reduces the risk of sole-source in the aftermarket. They will also need to develop a truly robust catalog which permits the appearance of a high degree of customization in the cabin, while retaining a very basic and stable baseline aircraft underneath.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 73215 times:

There has been an official Airbus info release via AFP last week that the assembly of MSN5000 will start "in the next days" and that MSN001 will start FAL in the "early summer" and that MSN001 will fly approximately 6 months after start of FAL:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/201...age-de-l-a350-bientot-commence.php

A also claim that the information about program status that was given by Fabrice Bregier at the Airbus new year press conference is still valid.

This info release from Airbus is to defy the rumors about further delays that has been circulating in the press in the last weeks according to AFP.

I am a bit surprised by the 6 months after FAL begin statement, this would mean MSN001 is flying before end of year   . I don't think this is correct, we will see first flight during Q1 2013 as announced by Airbus when the new timeplan was released.



Non French in France
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 73142 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
I am a bit surprised by the 6 months after FAL begin statement

The 777 was exactly on plan and took 14 months from begin of FAL to First Flight. The 787 planned for 15 months, but ended up taking 36. I agree, the current "6 months" is just a placeholder until the time is right for Airbus to announce the revised schedule.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 72704 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 4):
Limiting operators to seat and monument suppliers which may not possess the intellectual property or capability of their usual supplier is deeply traumatic for the commercial people at the airline.

Not sure about the A350, but the 787 catalog includes several top-line suppliers for each respective component; an airline might chafe that their favorite supplier isn't in there but they really can't claim the catalog supplier doesn't have the capability.

Quoting CM (Reply 4):
The technical and finance people are very sensitive to key systems being sole-source, as well.

As well they should be but it's important to note that sole-source is the rule, not the exception. Outside a very few of the avionics boxes, the cabin monuments & seats, and the engines the entire airplane is generally sole-source (or at least functionally sole-source in the case of some dual-sourced structure components).

Tom.


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1711 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 72464 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):

There has been an official Airbus info release via AFP last week that the assembly of MSN5000 will start "in the next days" and that MSN001 will start FAL in the "early summer" and that MSN001 will fly approximately 6 months after start of FAL:
Quoting ferpe (Reply 5):
I am a bit surprised by the 6 months after FAL begin statement, this would mean MSN001 is flying before end of year   . I don't think this is correct, we will see first flight during Q1 2013 as announced by Airbus when the new timeplan was released.

Well... Beginning of july is still early summer... And a first flight six months later would indeed be in early 2013  


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 72192 times:
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Quoting Aircellist (Reply 8):
Well... Beginning of July is still early summer... And a first flight six months later would indeed be in early 2013  

All true. Nevertheless it seems that they are quite challenged to keep the original communicated schedule. Let's hope they can manage to do so.  .


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 72193 times:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 8):
Well... Beginning of july is still early summer... And a first flight six months later would indeed be in early 2013

You are right (I am from South of Europe, high summer is August) or wrong (I am from North of Europe and summer is finished in August)  .

Anyway the info from CM is interesting, I have looked back on the A planning and the June 2011 plan (Le Bourget presentation) showed start FAL 1 Jan 2012 and first flight Q4 2012 = 9-12 month after FAL start (first FAL was still for MSN5000). Then in Dec 2012 this became FAL start somewhere Q1-Q2 2012 and First flight somewhere Q1-Q2 2013 = on average 12 months with spread up to 6 months.

So we can see that the planning scenario was about 9-12 month and then expanded to around 12 months with a larger uncertainty window but still shorter then the planned 14-15 month of 777 and 787, interesting  Wow! .



Non French in France
User currently offlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 160 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 72107 times:

thanx for the feedback. honestly, i am not a fan of sole source and catalog item. i fully understand the need to simplify the processes and get more mature equipment on board-but there should be something in between.
if this continues this way, i could imagine that in the future there will be dedicated stc holder who take an almost empty a/c and install seats and galleys as wanted by the airline..


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3388 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 71851 times:
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Ferpe, got any more pictures coming of the assembly/systems installation process?

User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1711 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 71771 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 10):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 8):
Well... Beginning of july is still early summer... And a first flight six months later would indeed be in early 2013

You are right (I am from South of Europe, high summer is August) or wrong (I am from North of Europe and summer is finished in August)   .
indeed.

That question of the six months between start of final assembly and first flight... I suppose it would mean six months for the first flying example (MSN 001), so about eight or nine months after the start of the FAL per se, for the static testing MSN 5000. I guess part of the learning curve will already have kicked in...


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 71579 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 12):
got any more pictures coming of the assembly/systems installation process?

I am certainly hunting for them  Wow! but the equipping is in A hands and they have tighter pub control then the tier 1s that did the structure subassemblies. Pity as they would be vary interesting from St Nazaire, Hamburg and Broughton,

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 13):
I suppose it would mean six months for the first flying example (MSN 001), so about eight or nine months after the start of the FAL per se, for the static testing MSN 5000. I guess part of the learning curve will already have kicked in...

I think the spokeperson or AFP got it wrong, given their timeplans it must be 6 months after FAL of MSN001.



Non French in France
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1711 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 71562 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 13):
I suppose it would mean six months for the first flying example (MSN 001), so about eight or nine months after the start of the FAL per se, for the static testing MSN 5000. I guess part of the learning curve will already have kicked in...

I think the spokeperson or AFP got it wrong, given their timeplans it must be 6 months after FAL of MSN001.

That's what I thought I had written... English, sometimes, is difficult...  


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3388 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 71488 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
I am certainly hunting for them

Airbus used to put out a monthly magazine that always had good articles on the production process.. However once I retired it was just too costly..


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 71430 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 16):
Airbus used to put out a monthly magazine that always had good articles on the production process.. However once I retired it was just too costly..

Do you mean this one (FAST) : http://www.airbus.com/support/publications/

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 15):
That's what I thought I had written...

However we decrypt both our english  it is way shorter then Boeings planned 14 and 15 month and even shorter then their actual times (don't know the actual time for 777), makes one wonder were A can be faster. Or have they just compressed this part of the timeplan when they started readjusting for the intial delays  Wow! .



Non French in France
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 71013 times:
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Seems that fuselage S15-21 for the static test specimen was delivered by Beluga today to the Toulouse FAL!

Very impressive part. Appears it was delayed by one day due to the ATC strike in France  .



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3388 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 70865 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
Do you mean this one (FAST)


No, it was a monthly and was more focused on production and PR for existing products... I see I referenced "la Journal Aerospatiale" , "Airbus Industrie Progress Reports" and "Revue Aerospatial" in my paper... I think it was the latter that was so open about the processes.


User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 70827 times:
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I think the ones you mention date back to the Airbus GIE days, when Airbus was made of Aérospatiale, MBB, CASA, British Aerospace, and before EADS was created in 2000 when it became then a single company (Airbus I mean).

So I doubt these are still issued.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinesf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 70644 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 255):
I have no info on the progress on cabin test other then reading a specialized magazine article some month ago that basically quoted what you are saying that A did some changes to the A350 cabin that has not gone down well with everyone.

Anyone else who has some knowledge?

I read that too! I am stumbled this subject hasn't reached more attention up to now...

I think it was: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...2_2012_p22-433856.xml&channel=comm

"Airbus will be forced to postpone its entry-into-service date by at least another year, due to the complex trickle-down effect of late design changes that is affecting various parts of the aircraft, but which is likely felt most painfully in the area of cabin installation, according to various industry sources. Costs are going up and supplier relations are being strained exponentially.

“The systems side is a nightmare,” says one CEO of a major Airbus supplier. “The interiors will be late by at least one year,” he believes. That does not mean that first flight is necessarily affected that much, because the initial flight tests will not need a functional cabin anyway. The full effect would not be felt until later in the flight-test campaign, when cabin testing is included."


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30579 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 70489 times:
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Quoting sf260 (Reply 21):
I read that too! I am stumbled this subject hasn't reached more attention up to now...

Bernstein Research believes EIS will slip to mid-2015, but I haven't seen a specific reason given for why they're so pessimistic.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 70359 times:
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Bernstein research have been quite negative on many Airbus developments. Many of their predictions luckily did not become reality. So I want to see some official number first before I believe another Bernstein Research report.  .

User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3388 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 70103 times:
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Quoting knoxibus (Reply 20):

I think the ones you mention date back to the Airbus GIE days

You're probably correct..I was doing my research paper in 1990


25 ferpe : Great stuff, A is probably working on a press release with pictures right now, will be interesting to see.
26 knoxibus : Got them as well as tons of pictures but the press releases are all pictureless! I am off to the FAL this afternoon to look at it live. But from the p
27 Post contains images frigatebird : The article has been discussed in part 2 of this thread. I don't think the interiors will be the cause of a delay by that much. It could very well af
28 Post contains links Clipper136 : Pics now available on Airbus and Flight International websites. Airbus starts final assembly of first A350 XWB PICTURES: A350 static airframe final as
29 Post contains links and images ferpe : Here the press release: "Final assembly of the first A350 XWB is now underway at the brand new final assembly line in Toulouse. This latest step in th
30 Post contains images 747400sp : I believe the A350 will be the best looking Airbus ever built.
31 maxter : Amen to that, but will the wings be as graceful as those of the the A380? I hope to be in Europe mid next year, is it difficult to get on a tour of t
32 Post contains links and images ferpe : Flightblogger has an excellent overview of the FAL procedure at TLS. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...-formally-activates-a350.html#more Here a
33 kanban : Ferpe, as we have talked about differences and commonalities in general before, it's starting to come together. What I see as positive is the nose in
34 Post contains links and images ferpe : For those who want to follow the discussion where it started: www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/313604/#132 Yes, your are right, I
35 kanban : That makes sense.. I'm also guessing that the buildings interior posts preclude a crane operation across the bays. In fact looking at the pictures ag
36 Post contains links and images ferpe : Here the principle of the 350 FAL and how A changed it to start the elaborate Cabin install earlier compared to 330-340: I am convinced the nacelles j
37 Post contains images Mortyman : Don't think it will match the A340 in being the worlds sexiest airliner ..., but that's what I think
38 kanban : thanks ferpe, your graphs explain a lot.. now I guess we just watch and learn. Please note there is no single correct way to run a FAL, there are man
39 Aircellist : Thanks indeed, ferpe. I smell heavy learning, here, from the lengthy A380 outfitting process... Although I'm totally ready to be corrected: how much
40 Post contains images ferpe : That is what is so fascinating about production, studied it at tech university then was thrown into the wolfs nest when the Airforce put me to match
41 Post contains links and images ferpe : Re the A350 FAL, this Airbus video shows it in more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVhy-8oD0hA Here the steps according to this video: Beluga
42 Post contains images EPA001 : A perfect overview of the individual phases which will create the A350! Thanks.
43 ZKOKQ : Great post ferpe. Nice to see how the FAL will work
44 RayChuang : I think in many ways, the A350 program will be Airbus' most important money-making venture, since it's not a "prestige" model like the A380. I do like
45 kanban : Interesting as usual... I noticed the position 30 has the a/c 'nose in' in your earlier layout (post 32) and 'tail in' in the video.. I believe the A3
46 Post contains links and images ferpe : Thanks kanban, it's a luxury for the thread to have a production guy like you who comments and compare with other concepts . The video is rather old (
47 packsonflight : I can not see the problem painting the nacelles at the customer wishes before they arrive to the FAL . The rudder arrives painted, at least on 380, b
48 kanban : Painting the cowling components is only part of it.. there are all the external fasteners added during installation. There are scratches and dings no
49 Post contains images ferpe : This site has a statement about the ultimate throughput time at TLS FAL and delivery center : "When production reaches its peak (10 frames per month
50 Post contains links r2rho : ferpe, retaking two of your questions from part2: Thanks, could you give us the test purpose for MSN4? I don't know for sure, but as MSN1 & 3 will
51 kanban : With the current state of computer design, seeing such a mock up is mind boggling. Although after the A380 problems, it's probably a comforting but e
52 Post contains links and images ferpe : You mean this zoomed part of section 15-21?: According to Flightblogger it: "Shaped in an isogrid pattern rather than the spar and stiffener design u
53 tdscanuck : It's actually a rib. Spars run the other way. I'd be absolutely shocked if that was cast; it's very hard to avoid voids in casting, which totally scr
54 kanban : I concur with Tom (above) that at least part of it is hogged out of plate and then forged.. although possibly cast and forged.. It's a bloody odd par
55 tdscanuck : I know that wasn't directed at me, but I'd bet is has to be. The A350 spec range is so large that I can't imagine they're not using the entire wing b
56 zeke : It is machined in the UK by Magellan Aerospace out of AlLi The A350 has a very large centre tank, about 66t capacity (yes sixty six).
57 kanban : So what are the benefits of an isogrid structure? looks like a lot of machining even if NC.
58 zeke : I do not know the number for this particular part, however other parts that I know that have been replaced with an isogrid design showed a 60% drop i
59 Post contains links and images ferpe : I don't quite get what you mean, here is the only picture I have found of the box in isolation: As it probably is modeled after the A380 (first mostl
60 Post contains links and images ferpe : One learn something every day : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isogrid It sounded enormous but look at the dimensions of the box in the picture from Ai
61 tdscanuck : I was talking about the "normal" (non-isogrid) CATIA rib shown at the bottom of Reply 52. They've been around for a while, just not very commonly in
62 Post contains links and images ferpe : There are a couple of Videos of the 380 FAL that shows the lower center wingbox flange goes inside the wingbox (there are cutouts for the wingskins s
63 kanban : Nice shots..one thing that always puzzles me when looking at Airbus production is the lack of safety glasses or hard hats (when working under parts be
64 r2rho : You misunderstood my post I think. The purpose of Cabin0 is not to assemble the cabin items together and see if they fit (although it will surely pro
65 nasula : A layman with no manufacturing experience here thinking out loud: Could it be common sense? If a several ton piece of aircraft falls on your head, a
66 kanban : It's probably just a language/company terminology difference.. even if just providing systems checking fixture we would lazily refer to it as a mocku
67 Acheron : Any idea why Airbus decided to go with an AlLi wingbox in the A350?. Being a CFRP plane, you'd think they would go for a CFRP wingbox similar to that
68 gigneil : Yeah I'm almost certain it isn't all Al-Li That isogrid stiffener might be. NS
69 ferpe : The center wingbox is majority CFRP, like for the wing the ribs are AlLi for economical reasons, they are all different and would require unique tool
70 zeke : Approximatly 82,421 liters Total is 113.3 t. Should still be a 3 tank setup, I assume it is in the slightly longer chord in the -1000 wing. Correct,
71 CM : There are surge tanks in the outboard rib bays of the A350-900. With creative venting, both OEMs have found ways in the past to turn these tanks into
72 zeke : The volume available is over 140,000 l, and over 113t. 110,000 l would only be 88t of fuel, depending on SG, obviously never in the ballpark of what
73 CM : Sorry, I mislabeled the quantities in my post. They should have been listed as Kg, not Liters. I'll try again: I have the following from a -900 brief
74 Stitch : Per the A350-900 Preliminary ACAP (July 2011) - Usable Fuel Capacity: 138,000 liters | 108,330kg.
75 zeke : They are the both the same incorrect volumes, one using a SG of 0.785, and the other a SG of 0.8. I have seen other numbers like 135,800 l as well. W
76 Stitch : So has Airbus raised the amount, or are we just quibbling over density values? Airbus' preliminary A350-900 ACAP gives a density of 0.785kg/l with the
77 zeke : I have already stated the answer to the first part twice on this thread. As for the second part, I fail to see the correlation of volume with SG. Vol
78 Stitch : You've stated it's over 140,000 liters and over 113 tons, both of which are more than what publically-available Airbus information states is the case
79 Post contains links lightsaber : Not to mention this would be a safety critical part which most manufacturers ban casting unless there is not avoiding it (e.g., engine rotors) To thi
80 Post contains images ferpe : He did, we get information hinted and we have to understand them as they come. This is very interesting, so the volume has changed compared to first
81 zeke : I did not imply that the SG changes the volume (unlike "also shows 138,000 liters, so I expect they are using the same density there"). I stated the
82 Post contains images bikerthai : On structures as shown, the flat portion is primarily loaded with shear load (imagine a cedar board fence). If the flat area is too large (without st
83 zeke : I do not know, I did not think nastran was able to do that, maybe some 3rd party tool. Also I do not know the design cases that were looked at, isogr
84 Post contains images bikerthai : Probably not. The isogrid optimization would have probably been done using parametric studies (adapted from some of-the-shelf software). Once that is
85 kanban : Thanks Thai for the explanation.. now I wonder if we'll see it on the 737MAX.. or did Airbus patent the application.. Of course we could use it elsew
86 autothrust : Is not the whole 787 winbox made out of CFRP? Why has Airbus adopted this kind of hybrid wingbox (CFRP/AlLi with Isogrid) Isn't CFRP sensitive to AlLi
87 ferpe : What is labeled as a CFRP part of an aircraft is seldom 100% CFRP, most of the time it is a combination of CFRP, Ti and Al. CFRP and Al has a corrosi
88 tdscanuck : No. Many pieces of titanium in there, as well as aluminum ribs (changing to CFRP) as ferpe noted. CFRP is not the be-all and end-all of materials. It
89 bikerthai : Not sure about patenting the isogrid design. The isogrid is used on the Internation Space Station modules and many rocket shells, so I would think it
90 Post contains links and images ferpe : They say if you lie convincing enough people will believe you : I came across this slide today (from a Deutsche Bank analyst briefing July 2010) : I c
91 zeke : A few considerations : Air can come from the engines, APU, or external ground air supply (both LP and HP), and ram air. The air can be used for air c
92 r2rho : Hard to tell exactly from that picture, but it would likely be either a part of the fuel tank inerting system or the supplemental cooling system (for
93 CM : I believe this will be correct. It makes sense to locate the inerting system near the fuel tanks, and it will likely use an air feed from the cabin t
94 Post contains links and images ferpe : As we are waiting for the aft fuselage section (16-19) from Hamburg (they now seem to be critical path) here is a nice picture of the next journey aft
95 kanban : Ferpe, so it looks like the wings are delivered straight to position 40 from the Beluga and are prepared there in forward position before loading to t
96 Post contains links CM : It is good to see the industry taking these steps. The total environmental footprint for manufacturing a CFRP airframe is much smaller than for an al
97 Post contains links zeke : Cranes are used to put the wings in place. The fuselage join occurs in another station (40), the complete fuselage is brought to the wing join statio
98 ferpe : Thanks, nice that the aero industry can make these showcases, the industry need it to counter the carbon footprint they planes makes when used. Solar
99 Post contains links maxter : Apologies if you have alreadys seen this video, but if like me you missed it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKKsxN_6Z4I&feature=related It's no
100 zeke : Some great footage of the aft pressure bulfhead in that.
101 kanban : went back over the previous pictures and see that the engine strut is indeed positioned or installation.. Zeke thanks for the video... one of the thin
102 Post contains links and images ferpe : When looking at the P40 model picture I could spot the pylon being brought forward for mating to the wing: Thus P40 is indeed the station where the wi
103 kanban : Maybe their computer on recognizes descending order... ? Another question, I see all these blue and yellow panels on the work platforms which would ma
104 WingedMigrator : I'll guess they're for situational awareness of which P40 bay you're in. P40 blue and P40 yellow.
105 dynamicsguy : Boeing also uses Optistruct, and has a group dedicated to structural optimisation. We sent some of our parts to them to see what they could do, but d
106 Tristarsteve : The nitrogen generating systems in service now use air from the bleed system. This goes through what is very similar to a pack where the pressure and
107 nomadd22 : 787?
108 CM : Independent electric compressor.
109 r2rho : Actually, it's just the other way around, at least as far as Airbus designs to date are concerned. The supplemental cooling has its own ram air ducts
110 moo : I thought the A380 didn't have an inserting system, as it was certified prior to the required date for the FAR, and it didn't have a belly tank (that
111 Post contains images AustrianZRH : Let's hope the German computers do it the same way .
112 Post contains links ap305 : The rear section is now in TLS http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...-delivered-to-final-assembly-line/[Edited 2012-04-25 11:09:37]
113 Tristarsteve : Thanks for that. Made me look in our A320 AMM, and found out that our latest A320 has an inerting system fitted for the centre tank only. It is a muc
114 bonusonus : Bombardier is doing the same thing for the CSeries with its CIASTA test rig. Might be a new trend in the industry.
115 PHX787 : Saw this just posted on FB https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=447035805312709&set=a.403690762980547.116293.392751580741132&type=1&th
116 Post contains links and images ferpe : here a zoom of the most interesting picture, one can see the static testing frames strain gauges and the fasteners for the rear bulk-head now being i
117 Post contains images bikerthai : Wouldn't think you would need that many antenna unless you're a military aircraft. Also, you would usually route test wiring through a window plug. I
118 CM : This is the static frame. Those fittings permit external fixtures to simulate dynamic loads on the passenger floor. These loads must be capable of be
119 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks, makes 100% sense, these fittings are also visible on the forward fuselage parts, glad they did not plan that many BIG antennas .
120 CM : You will find these same fittings on the bottom of the fuselage as well, for enabling the same dynamic load conditions on the cargo floor. Older Boei
121 Post contains images bikerthai : Why would you need dynamic loads on a static test frame? So for a static test, as you pull up the wings, you need a down force on the fuselage. Are t
122 pygmalion : What was different in the past was that there was no requirement to do pressurization at the same time as the ultimate load test. The pressurization
123 Post contains images r2rho : You are right, I was actually looking to show the supplemental cooling ram air inlet/outlets. The A380 has supplemental cooling, but not inerting. Th
124 CM : Thanks Pygmalion! Not intuitive, perhaps, but in a sense there are dynamic loads being monitored during static tests. Boeing's static test setup is e
125 WingedMigrator : I'm not sure I get this... in a +3.75 g test case (150% LLF), don't you have to react the entire upward pull on the wings with downward forces elsewh
126 CM : I was just referring to the purpose of the penetrations on the crown in the photo Ferpe posted, but you are correct; all loads are represented at the
127 bikerthai : So you are saying "dynamic" as you are going from one "static" test point to another? or are you talking about potential dynamic effects as you get b
128 tdscanuck : "Dynamic" in the sense of "loads induced by aircraft maneuvering". The tests themselves are quasi-static. Depends which aircraft you're talking about
129 CM : Dynamic only in the sense that as the simulated g-load is increased, the simulated main deck and lower lobe payloads being reacted by the floor struc
130 pygmalion : the floor load systems are cables not bars and so therefore tension loads only. Positive G loads are reacted out the belly and negative Gs are reacted
131 knoxibus : This has been a question everybody once involved, even partially, with Airbus production processes, has asked. After close to 10 years, I only got an
132 IndianicWorld : The airplane customisation restrictions being put in place in modern aircraft just end up making them even more the same as each other IMHO. The varie
133 knoxibus : Well it's either that or nobody can afford airplanes as price of customization would become too dire (not everybody is an Emirates or Lufthansa), and
134 dynamicsguy : It doesn't sound so far fetched. The Boeing section names have a similar origin - the names originally came from the location where the sections were
135 breiz : An explanation which ties with the way houses are numbered in streets of French towns. The smallest the number, the closest to the town center. And t
136 Post contains images ferpe : So while we wait for the wings (should arrive now in May according to John Lehay who has been in Australia pedaling frames), here one more piece for M
137 maxter : 8 days since we have seen anything on this thread. Would it be because A is keeping mretty mum on the subject or that there is not much going on? Been
138 Post contains links CM : It has been quiet. AW has a 16-May article in which they say the program remains "challenging" but that FAL is "progressing well" http://www.aviation
139 Post contains images ferpe : As per the FAL of the static frame we are waiting for the wingboxes (it is more wingboxes then complete wings IMO), from what I know they were planne
140 imiakhtar : For those of you using twitter, it may be worth readying a few questions for an Airbus Question and Answer session on the A350: 'Join us on May 31 for
141 maxter : Thanks for that, much appreciated. Now off to learn how to twitter...
142 Post contains images ferpe : If we dont get wings w*ell take doors , thanks Beochien at avia.superforum.fr for the finding. I post the complete press release as it tells a bit abo
143 CM : Doors really are a difficult area of design, but 400 does sound like a lot. I suspect this must include everyone from design to build to support. It'
144 Post contains images ferpe : Well it says 250 for design etc and eventually 400 for series, guess they plan on building many frames a month or is black metal manpower intensive?
145 rheinwaldner : Indeed, especially it is mentioned that they will be busy with the production of the doors. Is CFRP-production so labour intensive?
146 ferpe : To those in the know, do they fit doors on the static frame (wouldn't think so) or are these for MSN001?
147 CM : Yes. The new rules are such that some static tests must be performed with the fuselage pressurized.
148 Post contains links hloutweg : Airbus has just completed the mating of the entire fuselage according to this article, and the photo in there: Aviation Week: http://www.aviationweek.
149 Post contains links and images ferpe : Here we have the fuselage being rolled out on the discussed MLG sub trolley, NLG is quite long (long legs on this bird ). The fuselage on the other ha
150 CM : Nice find, thanks for always being the first to get this stuff posted. Not bad at all! It's hard to get a real good sense from this photo with all th
151 tdscanuck : I'd say more business than beauty...they've done some clearly nice work applying a lot of the A380 lessons to this front end and that makes sense for
152 Post contains links and images dynamicsguy : Airbus tweeted another picture from side on:
153 HA_DC9 : Wow!! She is a thing of beauty and business!
154 Post contains images PHX787 : DAYUM she looks great!
155 Post contains images scouseflyer : Thought that it was, look how tiny the windows appear to be, then seeing the second picture she does look purposeful but a little "stubby" think that
156 Post contains links and images BoeingVista : A350XWB to have window shades Plus insights from the rollout http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...f-the-a350-900-that-wont-ever-fly/
157 flipdewaf : Interesting you say that, I always thought the 787 had this whole "forehead" thing going on a bit aswell (obviously not as much as the A380 so it doe
158 CXB77L : I like it. The A350-900 is very much a good looking aircraft. I'll reserve judgment on the A350-800 and A350-1000 until I see one in the flesh, but t
159 BoeingVista : We're not really going to know until they connect the wings and bolt on the radome. I like it so far though.
160 zkojq : Wow, looks very nice. I personally think that many of the CAD drawings made it look a little ungainly but in the metal it looks really good. The front
161 Post contains links and images ferpe : Those cockpit lines gives me a time trip to DC8 days : Have Boeing checked that all the designers/engineers report to work nowerdays in Long Beach .
162 Post contains images oldeuropean : Exactly also my thoughts.
163 Post contains images ferpe : No, the floor is in one level. The metallic part of the forebody stretches down however to reach the equipment/electrical bay underneath the cockpit
164 BoeingVista : I'd have thought that it was a conscious aerodynamic decision.
165 Post contains images ferpe : Don't think so, you need a softly rounded nose which has a very smooth taper on the overside like the A380 and 787 to avoid supersonic areas (see pic
166 Post contains links and images ferpe : Here some interesting details from the completed fuselage: NOSE LANDING GEAR This is pivoted far forward on the fuselage and seems quite long, ground
167 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Now we are competing on window shade speed? LOL I guess that just goes to show how on-par the different manufacturers are, if details like this have
168 CM : The strut seems fully extended, which would hint it will actually sit a fair bit lower in real life. They may have done this to better match the nose
169 sweair : To me it seems like the A350 project kicks up much less excitement in the public than what the 787 and A380 did? It is however their first twin fusela
170 Post contains images CM : Well, since Ferpe posted some great info on the static frame almost 8 hours ago and it's only us two who have replied, it is hard to argue this is no
171 tdscanuck : A320? Airbus and Boeing both deliberately did very public marketing/branding campaigns around the 787/A380. Other than a splashy launch at Farnboroug
172 kanban : the wing attach still baffles me, not so much as how it's described, but from having to remove B's double plus chords from my belief system as being t
173 babybus : Would I be right in thinking that you will have to go down a step or two to get into the flight deck on an A350? The B757 had a step down cockpit and
174 ferpe : Here is how I understand it: The wing jigs are horisontal for the first time, previous jigs have been vertical to allow the driller good access with
175 ferpe : The floor is flat.
176 kanban : Then they are only attaching the wing stringers with action above and below the horizontal skin/cover.. not assembling wing skins to inspar ribs ...
177 Post contains images EPA001 : I can only agree with AirlineCritic and CM. Posts like these are the sugar on the cake. Very, very helpful to get a better understanding of the progr
178 Post contains images ferpe : I found some articles describing it more in detail, a bit more involved then my description. One thing of note however, the stringers on the skins ar
179 Post contains images autothrust : Wow, amazing machine. Thanks ferpe for your updates and insight information. Keep the good work up Electrochromatic window shades are optionally.
180 Post contains images airbazar : Looks like a grown-up 757 It looks great.
181 Post contains links and images dynamicsguy : Jon Ostrower just posted a photo of flight deck systems installation in work on MSN001. Larger version here
182 Post contains images frigatebird : That certainly looks a lot better than section 41 of the first 787 at roll out. Good to see this kind of progress. That being said, should IMHO imply
183 imiakhtar : A heads up for tweeting a.netters for airbus twitter: Our live Twitter Q&A takes place this Thursday at 14.30 CET with #A350 expert François Caud
184 Post contains images CM : I had not thought about schedule much until you wrote this, at which point I wasn't even sure what the original EIS was. Since Airbus just made a new
185 Post contains links and images ferpe : Thanks for the chart, very interesting. Funny that things slide more on the right hand side of the chart, ie if something move 3 months on the first
186 lightsaber : Most excellent chart. Thank you. Wow... Thank you. I like the wording... it is far cheaper to test in sections (and correct) than in final assembly.
187 Post contains links imiakhtar : CM's schedule graphic doesn't appear to show anything new. The dates and blocks presented on it, as far as I can tell, correlate with your intermedia
188 CM : Seeing it layed out in this way helps to illustrate the complexity of standing up a production system, versus designing an airplane. Like the 787 pro
189 Post contains images Aircellist : CM, that is a great chart! Thanks! You should patent it!
190 Post contains images ferpe : As always thanks for your insightful comments, makes the somewhat slow birth of this baby more interesting and bearable . It is actually a grandiose
191 sweair : Sorry to say this but its butt ugly like all Airbus planes in the front. A380 front. However looks are not even important so why would we care? No ble
192 scouseflyer : It's probably not a "risk averse" stance more likely a decision made based on weighing up the pros and cons of the differant approaches and reaching
193 sweair : As this will be the future standard it could be good to do it with the 350, to gain all the know how needed for the future now. Even if the savings a
194 flipdewaf : Will it? 1 aircraft uses this so far so to call it the future standard is a bit premature I think. What does that actually mean and how does it apply
195 Post contains links ferpe : There was a very thorough discussion on the bleed aircond subject up the thread: www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/ge...al_aviation/read.main/5351041
196 CM : I think the FAL pictures are a bit misleading, as they give the airplane a bit of a "snout" between the lower sil of the windows and where the radome
197 Post contains images CM : Actually, I did find one tidbit by adding your Dec 11 schedule into the graphic: Airbus have improved their estimated completion of MSN001 by a coupl
198 sweair : How late is the A350 now? I get the feeling it gets forgotten in the cover of the 787 mess. When was the original EIS planned?
199 Stitch : At the time of the program launch in 2006, EIS for each model was: A350-900: Mid-2013 A350-800: Mid-2014 A350-1000: Mid-2015
200 sweair : So 1 year or so for the 900 and 2 or more for the rest? This is not counting on problems that could arise in test flights etc. Are new airplane projec
201 ferpe : Not necessarily so if you use old and trusted production methods. Now B and A have to learn several hundred sub-suppliers to work with new materials
202 Post contains images CM : Out of curiosity, I took the most recent (Innovation Days) A350 schedule and compared it with 787 dates from NYC787's "All Things 787" blog (a very us
203 WingedMigrator : Awesome charts. Thanks CM.
204 Post contains images ferpe : Great stuff CM . As to your comment on margin, this is also the feeling that Evrard communicated at the innovation days, he signaled there was margin
205 Post contains links and images CM : How many program heads must have agonized over this very issue! The "What am I overlooking?" question must torture those guys to no end! You wouldn't
206 Post contains images CM : We're pushing two weeks without a peep from Ferpe or any news from the A350 program. I think there should be some activity to report on... MSN005 wing
207 kanban : isn't just posting to keep a thread active against the rules? one suggestion is have the Moderators make this an official thread with flaming bullet .
208 Post contains images astuteman : That is so. But they are then creep-formed for over 24 hours such that the spar/rib contour becomes their natural shape.. hiding programme slippage o
209 CM : I think this is one of the truly monumental things to learn from the A380 and 787 program delays. When the A380 hit it's wiring issue, Airbus mostly
210 sweair : I think the rework strategy was a bad gamble that will cost B a lot, A wise from A380 and 787 mistakes chose another strategy. Its only now about 3½
211 Post contains images astuteman : The exact point A philosophy I'm still endeavouring to champion in a business with a traditionally huge hurry-up driver..... Rgds
212 Post contains links and images ferpe : Well there are some news, Sonaca are delivering the first shipset of droop nose/slats for MSN001 (only french link): http://videos.lesoir.be/video/2b
213 autothrust : Doesn't sound really good. I think we have to worry about the -800 and 1000.
214 sweair : Weight problems like with the 787? As I understand the customers drove B to grow the size and that grew weight. A+B are really in the hands of its cus
215 kanban : every committed change gets an estimated weight change.. then they wait for the production hardware and installation to verify... sometimes it's accur
216 abba : (see link above) Isn't that rather normal for any new type? The first goal is to get it airborne through certification - the next to get the weight d
217 ferpe : I don't think you are remembering correct, the 787 did have a change in it's typical seating layout from AFAIK went from 250 something at launch, the
218 sweair : Customers adding its desperate needs make this process far worse. There must be a point when the OEM tells a demanding customer to shove it?
219 kanban : Only partially, the assembly process will add weight and much of it in mechanic induced amounts (sealant), then come the customer outfitting .. again
220 Post contains links ferpe : I don't quite understand this, the OEM only guarantees the MEW (ie without customer outfitting or customer furnished equipment) or a strict standard
221 abba : I understand that the assembly process will add weight - but will it really add so much weight that it cannot be precisely estimated to within 0.01%
222 sweair : I think its impossible to nail the weight 100% before FAL of the frame. Some things always change in the last minute, some unforeseen gaps or misalign
223 nomadd22 : If .01% equalled 1 ton the 359 would weigh 10,000 tons. It would need bigger engines.
224 Revelation : It'd be interesting to consider what things caused weight concerns on the 787 to see if they will be issues on A350 or not. One thing I remember gett
225 tdscanuck : You can be within 1% (what I think you meant by 1t). You can't be within 0.01%. Tom.
226 kanban : was thinking of the pieces that arrive needing an extra bracket or longer wiring and missing plumbing fitting.. ... nothing big, just part of the wei
227 abba : Ups - something wrong with my math.... Now - what I meant was that when all the parts are weighted as they leave the facilities where they are produc
228 ferpe : One of the things added at the FAL is the shimming (a kind of fluid which fills the voids between mated parts). Having visited the Thyphoon productio
229 tdscanuck : That would be about a 20 lbs uncertainty...there is no chance, on an aircraft that size, that they know the sealant and shims with that much accuracy
230 Post contains links ferpe : We are getting there piece by piece, now the wire harnesses for MSN001 wings are at Bremen, delivered by a division of Latecoere (in french, spotted b
231 Post contains links and images ferpe : While we wait for things to happen, here a nice picture taken from a video of the middle section (15-21) arriving at TLS for MSN5000: The MLG bay is a
232 CM : Perhaps an even bigger difference is that Boeing chose to keep the 787 keel beam aluminum, rather than make it CFRP. For Boeing, that material materi
233 Post contains images CM : Like Airbus, Boeing weighed major structural components when they arrived. Like Airbus, engineering weight estimates for these parts were extremely a
234 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks, had no idea it was Alu, further this is the first time I've heard that Aluminium is better in taking compression loads then CFRP and so much
235 Post contains links zeke : Cargo and passenger doors have been delivered from http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/news...523_ec_a350xwb_passenger_door.html
236 Post contains images ferpe : Here the (forward I guess) cargo door from Korean Aerospace:
237 dynamicsguy : All of it? We used to build the structure over the top of the MLG bay for the A330 (yes, at a Boeing plant). The beams over the top of the bay which
238 CM : CFRP is significantly less weight efficient than aluminum (and other metals) for most compression-loaded applications. In the Boeing design, the wall
239 Post contains images ferpe : I guess you mean heavy = substantial rather then heavy = increases the weight. The MLG area is perhaps the most interesting of the whole frame, this
240 Post contains images Rheinbote : Thank you for the insight, I wasn't aware of this until today! It doesn't take an FEM analysis to figure that having a wall between the wheel wells i
241 Post contains images CM : Yes! "Heavy" was a poor choice of words on my part. Absolutely, I meant "substantial". Thanks for clarifying. From the photo you have shown, the tria
242 Post contains images ferpe : On what do you base that ? Classical design theory says you should spend your material as far from the neutral axis as possible. The B principle spen
243 Rheinbote : There' a lot of structural synergies at play in the wheel well area beyond the classical theory on modulus of bending. On top you may find that even
244 Post contains images sweair : No Saab parts on the A350? I know they make the cargo doors for the 787, why not the A350? The 787 has quite the European input in it, cabin air is CT
245 Post contains images ferpe : Cabin air dehumidifiers for the cabin wall isolation that is, the cabin air is all Hamilton Sundstrand, it is well covered up the thread. Re why no S
246 Post contains images sweair : I hope this financial system collapses once and for all, kick the bankers out and let the engineers run the show
247 ferpe : I still don't get it, if anything this would have been the time when A should have changed to the B design principle if it was superior cause: - the
248 Post contains images EPA001 : Now we would not want that to happen here. Thanks to you and ferpe and many other posters for making this a superb thread to read. The level of infor
249 Rheinbote : Overall architecture design is done by Airbus on all sections, including those made by Spirit. All I tried to explain is that it is fairly obvious th
250 Post contains links and images CM : For whatever reason, I could find almost nothing on the internet to show the comparable 787 structure, which I thought would be useful to understand
251 ferpe : I did also find this static test frame picture when trying to understand how the keelbeam and the wall was made. What surprised me was how high the ce
252 CM : The A350 has usable volume to carry more than 17,000 L additional fuel versus the 787. There can be a lot of enablers for fuel volume other than wing
253 flyglobal : I want to take the opportunity and congratulate especially Frepe and CM for their outstanding contribution in this Thread. Great to have this deep div
254 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks to Flyglobal and others who enjoy the thread, I do as well. It is great to have CM but also others who have insights in development programs sh
255 N14AZ : I lost the overview - how complete (or incomplete) are the prototypes now? What would be the next milestone e.g. roll-out of MSN 001, and how realisti
256 Post contains links and images ferpe : I managed to find a fine photo of the middle section of the 787 in flightbloggers flickr archive: I hope I have denoted the part which is the keelbeam
257 Post contains images ferpe : MSN5000 is in FAL, second station (40, we count down). Probably VTP and HTP are fitted right now, after that the wings should arrive and away it goes
258 nomadd22 : 100% agree. Those two in this thread are the best this site has seen. Even without CaptainX.
259 Post contains images CM : I appreciate the compliments, but Ferpe deserves the accolades for this thread. He performs the tough job of digging up info on the A350 program and p
260 autothrust : Outstanding work ferpe and CM. Highly interesting thread. Could you please do a summarization of the differences between the 787 and A350 with each ad
261 Post contains images CM : Nice find, with a much better view of the trap panel than I could find. In this picture you can see the trap panel is a discrete structural element a
262 Post contains images BoeingVista : I'll add thanks to ferpe and CM for this thread but I guess the rest of us on this thread have to do some work occasionally According to spirit A350
263 Post contains links N14AZ : Thanks for the update! Oh no, thanks very much, I costs me already some time to keep the A 380-database up to date. I think it's much easier: they an
264 Post contains links Areopagus : Maybe not Airbus per se, but Airbus cites its design heritage from the VC-10. Airbus Adopt VC10 Landing Gear Concept For A350XWB (by Bells May 28 200
265 Post contains links CM : The gear beam arrangement certainly predates the 777, and perhaps began with the VC-10. This could be what Airbus was referring to. The A350 gear des
266 flyglobal : Frepe, according to my stomach feeling it seems very quite with the A350 progress right now. We learned that the wings are assembled very carefully, b
267 Post contains images EPA001 : I guess at Farnborough Airbus will give a general update on the whole program. At that is not far off, and partly explains to me why the official com
268 sweair : Why would it be on time and on budget, we live in 2012.. I have sort of lost confidence in modern projects.
269 Post contains images N14AZ : On the other hand they prefer presenting good news during air shows and not announcing delays. Maybe they will give an update after Farnborough. That
270 Post contains links and images ferpe : Hi folks, well the only news I have is that Fabrice Bregier talked a bit about the 350 Monday when he was interviewed by Financial Times: http://in.re
271 N14AZ : Question: could it be that the delay of the A 350 wings is linked somehow to the problems Airbus encountered on the A 380-wings or is this technically
272 Post contains images EPA001 : Maybe they suffered on available manpower? Technically by design and by the used materials the wings of the A380 and A350 are quite different from ea
273 Post contains links and images ferpe : Re wingbox thickness, I have found some pictures which gives a reasonable chance to measure the wingbox height vs the fuselage height. As we have the
274 N14AZ : That's what I thought as well. Maybe the resources required for the A 350 Wings production are currently crawling through some A 380 wings in Dubai,
275 Post contains images ferpe : They are very different designs in their buildup. The A380 wing uses Alu spars, a mix of Alu and CFRP ribs with Alu feet and Alu wingskins, the 350 u
276 WingedMigrator : The best reference would probably be the frame pitch (as measured by window spacing). I think it is 24 inches for the 787, but I'm not certain of tha
277 Post contains images ferpe : The 787 could be right, I have 0.610m and 0.635m spacing for the 350. Now for someone to measure and see if they come to another wingbox max thicknes
278 Post contains links and images ferpe : The horizontal tailplaine for MSN001 is now ready for delivery from Airbus Spain. With a span of 19m and 82m2 surface it weighs 2t: The MSN5000 HTP wi
279 Post contains images EPA001 : Very nice picture. Thanks for posting.
280 Post contains links and images ferpe : Our friends at avia.superforum.fr are good hunters, now they found a good summary article of A350 status at AINonline. It is based on a month old inte
281 Post contains links and images CM : Ferpe, Tim Clark made an interesting comment to Flight Global yesterday regarding the A350... I believe the rib feet are a completely different archi
282 Post contains images ferpe : The material and design is completely different, the ribs including feet are milled by Korean aerospace IIRC from a AlLi plank, the A380 ones giving
283 ferpe : double post please delete[Edited 2012-07-10 19:29:38]
284 Post contains links cymro : http://www.electroimpact.com/company.asp?page=News scroll down to Jan 8 2009
285 Post contains links LAXintl : And Airbus encounters A350 wing drilling problems http://finance.yahoo.com/news/airbus...350-schedule-doable-184748275.html Apparently lost 4-weeks so
286 ferpe : Thanks, did not find this before. Then Electroimpact is involved this time as well, now these know how to drill complicated things. Funny the 350 has
287 astuteman : They sure do. They designed the assembly system for the A380 wings, and I'm given to understand reduced the driliing and fastening manhours to only 1
288 Post contains images ferpe : And now let's get this results also for the A350 wings, but this time not manhours but operation hours .
289 Post contains images ferpe : Given the low info amount on the 350 program I watched the final press briefing from Airbus at Farnborough, there were some informative answers re 350
290 kanban : A very logical step.. am surprised that it wasn't in the original build plan for the first couple sets since it is a whole new process and tooling. A
291 ferpe : One of the arguments for the horizontal orientation was that a dropped tool could amass such energy that a non visible damage could be inflicted on a
292 kmz : I find it a little worrying that you hear nothing about results from system cabin0 in Hamburg. I know that they had some troubles with the simulation-
293 kaneporta1 : Although a valid argument, there are foam pads to prevent such damage. A better reason why Airbus went horizontal with the A350 wing build is because
294 Stitch : Boeing introduced horizontal wing production with the 737NG starting in 2010.
295 Post contains images ferpe : If Boeing did it for the same reason as Airbus, to automate the drilling process with a giant flatplate drilling system (one over the wing and one be
296 kanban : Had not realized that... been retired too long.
297 ferpe : Thanks for the info, do you see the Cabin0 test having bearing on MSN001 first flight or rather MSN002 (the first cabin equipped test aircraft) effic
298 kmz : the cabin0 is mostly aiming at cabin systems, that's for sure. but most of the a/c systems are simulated or can be connected as a real hardware to ch
299 Post contains links ferpe : AW has a summary article of some discussions with Evrard and the info from the last news conference at Farnborough, there are some more tidbits in the
300 ferpe : I think this is a lot of time, FAL by that time should take maximum halv a year if not less and I can't see why you need a year to flight test a vari
301 autothrust : Very interesting update. Thanks ferpe!
302 Post contains links srbmod : Please continue the discussion here: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 4 (by srbmod Jul 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)
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