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Rumored 787 Window Shade Issues?  
User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 19 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 25142 times:

I hear pax and ANA FAs have issues with 787 dimmable window shades, and I am trying to find out if true. For some pax sleeping is difficult because the shades do not get dark enough. Another is that they are too slow to change from light to dark. Have others heard these or other issues? None of the videos I have seen are long enough to show it going from clear to as dark as it gets. If anyone is flying soon could you shoot a video which shows the full operation?

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 24902 times:

It did sound like a daft idea. It must be like sunglasses rather than a blind.

Luck though, I thought you were going to say they found cracks in the blinds.


User currently offlinetp1040 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 24819 times:

I can imagine that this is true. Some people will whine about anything. Too slow, not dark enough LOL.

User currently offlineYOWVIEWER From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 24331 times:

If you sleep with your eyes closed, it's gets a bit darker. Should solve most of the problem.

User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 24225 times:

No matter where in the world you go, there will always be someone to moan about whatever product you name. You can't make everyone happy.

Still, I think the thread title is misleading. These are not issues but opinions.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 24112 times:

My guess is that, like most technology, no matter how basic, there are people unable to master it...  


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 23544 times:

If I recall correctly, these things were going to be a lot like the "Transition Lenses" glasses that people have (although the glasses react to sunlight, these obviously react to an electric switch). It isn't an instant thing, it takes a while to go from clear to dark. It's not like closing a blind, the electric system has to interact with the window pane and do its thing so it'll take a while to do. But based on the videos on YouTube, it looks like they do darken substantially:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ghGITcaSU



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 23375 times:

I can see how annoying those can be from the video. 1 min to transition? Lame. Makes quick peeks to see where you are a thing of the past.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30908 posts, RR: 87
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 23374 times:
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As the video shows, they do go very dark, but not opaque.

So the fears that the FAs could "black out" the cabin were always unfounded and based on some people's complaints, even in the darkest setting, the windows still let in enough light to make sleep for those people (I would guess when exposed directly to the sun during a turn or such).

[Edited 2012-04-03 11:54:34]

User currently offlinegr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3099 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 23304 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 8):
I can see how annoying those can be from the video. 1 min to transition? Lame. Makes quick peeks to see where you are a thing of the past.

Hard to tell from a video on youtube, but here's my take on it......although the full transition takes close to a minute, if someone is being disturbed by the light outside, e.g. sun shining straight through your window, then by the 30 seconds point, the window seems to be dark enough to provide relief to the passenger seated there......full darkeing can go on for the next 30 seconds, but the immediate objective is achieved...

But yes, you're right about the quick peek....that seems to be more difficult....I do the quick peek out the window thing all the time whenever I fly   


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2107 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23260 times:

I smell a money making opportunity.

At the airport gift shop, sell some tacky cut-outs to stick to the window and block out the light completely.

Although you'll probably go bankrupt in no time when folks can start making them for free using instructions on the internet.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23128 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 8):
I can see how annoying those can be from the video. 1 min to transition? Lame. Makes quick peeks to see where you are a thing of the past.
Quoting gr8circle (Reply 10):
But yes, you're right about the quick peek....that seems to be more difficult....I do the quick peek out the window thing all the time whenever I fly   

I think the point is you can still see outside (during the day) when the window is 90% dimmed. At that point it is probably also dark enough to sleep. So in reality I think you'll be able to look out for a quick peek without even touching anything.


User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23045 times:

I've been doing online searching since my original post and learned some things. Here's a video that shows the 787 window from a direct angle. I guess I can see how it might be an issue for some in direct sunlight, although this video was not shot in sunlight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvCWxFKu-BQ

I'd love to see a video shot in direct sunlight.

I also found a similar window shade in use that seems better, if the following video is true: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk

These techs look like the future to me - no more covering up views with a shade, or annoying pax with an open shade.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 22595 times:

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 2):
Some people will whine about anything. Too slow, not dark enough LOL.

Actually, I heard very little whining about traditional window blinds.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineCiC From Germany, joined Jun 2010, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 22385 times:

As long as the Dreamliner offers for those who LIKE FLYING all the flight the view out everything's all right...

All guys who just like to get moved from A to B sleeping all the time MUST take their eye-patches!!!

Hate all flights where I get forced to close the window shades, just that the paxes get asleep and the F/A get nothing to do then...


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 21622 times:

Quoting gr8circle (Reply 10):
although the full transition takes close to a minute, if someone is being disturbed by the light outside, e.g. sun shining straight through your window, then by the 30 seconds point, the window seems to be dark enough to provide relief to the passenger seated there......full darkeing can go on for the next 30 seconds, but the immediate objective is achieved...

But with standard pull-down shades it only takes 2 seconds, not 30 seconds. It's a useless and potentially maintenance-intensive gimmick in my opinion, like "mood lighting".


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1427 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 21550 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):

But with standard pull-down shades it only takes 2 seconds, not 30 seconds. It's a useless and potentially maintenance-intensive gimmick in my opinion, like "mood lighting".

Couldnt agree more. What happens when even one window goes technical??? That whole area of the cabin will suffer. I know myself the very very rare occasion that a window blind jams it is a pain in the rear but I see that happening far less then an electronic device failing!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinejonnyclark From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 21342 times:

A gimmick perhaps? Or do you think there might be some logic behind it. Letting in some light might play with the body clock slightly, perhaps it's beneficial in reducing jet lag? Much like mood lighting does (not just a gimmick!). Our brains do respond to light subconsciously and I'm sure there must be some kind of effect here?


Jonny, commercial pilot & founder of Thedesignair
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 21342 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):

I agree w viscount. Too complicated. Should have four settings. Open 1/2 dim, day for night, and one darker. That would involve two LCD layers. One more opaque. So it's 00 10 01 11 in terms of activation. Default state of window should also be 1/2 dim in case of malfunction. This setup would have near instant response like all other existing tech of this kind.

F/A can still lock out full open and 1/2 dim when desired. And aircraft could even have smart tech to lock out full open for whatever side of aircraft happens to be pointing at sun at that moment.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 21225 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):
These are not issues but opinions.

And if enough passengers have that opinion, then that makes it an issue. The question is whether that's the case with the 787's shades. It seems to me like a solution in search of a problem, an answer to a question nobody asked, and a cure worse than the disease. In other words, I don't see the point. From an engineering perspective, it's stupid - you're taking a proven, simple system that works and replacing it with an unproven, technically complex system that doesn't work as well. It may work well *enough*, for some or even most, but it doesn't work as well as a simple shade.

Quoting CiC (Reply 15):
Hate all flights where I get forced to close the window shades, just that the paxes get asleep and the F/A get nothing to do then...

What flights are these because I've never been on one, and I fly long haul almost exclusively. I just returned from Japan flying NRT-JFK - they close the shades and dim the lights but I always get an exit row seat right next to the galley and the f/a's are *always* working. They never have "nothing to do".



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2107 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20985 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
What happens when even one window goes technical???

Tom had a very good synopsis on these windows in one of the other threads.

In case where one of the windows go "technical", I believe the window will stay transparent. The flight crew will have covers that will go over the window if they need to keep it dark.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
It's a useless and potentially maintenance-intensive gimmick in my opinion, like "mood lighting".

Ah, but when working properly, the flight crew can "open" and shut the windows all at once instead of making an announcement or having to walk down the plane and manually open the shades themselves.

I would be curious about the electrical architecture of these windows. Would the "on/off and intensity" of these units be controlled at the master switch or at the individual windows? If it's at the window level, then I can see the probability of failure for these unit go up. But if it's at the master control panel, then there wouldn't be much at the window level to fail except maybe a loose wire.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20634 times:

These windows will prove to be 1% convenient, 1% cool and 98% annoying as hell in the long run. I can't believe Boeing made such an dumb mistake. Imagine if instead they went with a switch which automatically raised and lowered your shade, only it took 30 seconds. People would go nuts, as they will eventually with these things. Prediction: if any are actually still in working order in a year, Boeing will switch the line back to shades and retrofit all the planes in service, at considerable expense.

User currently offlinejreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20495 times:

So what if I am a passenger on a flight that would like to look outside, but the FAs insist on the shades being closed? A recent flight from IST-ORD on TK I had to do this. This was a daytime flight. So the 787 is the perfect solution for that!

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20496 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
For some pax sleeping is difficult because the shades do not get dark enough.

They're plenty dark at full tint; at least as good as full limosine tint. I you can't sleep under those light conditions you've got problems that the airline can't take care of.

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
Another is that they are too slow to change from light to dark.

How fast does it need to be? People hate instant because the shock of going from dark to full bright (especially at altitude where the sun is *really* bright) is hard on the eyes.

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
None of the videos I have seen are long enough to show it going from clear to as dark as it gets.

It's about 60 seconds full cycle, judging with my Mark I Mod 0 eyeball. To get noticeably dark is much faster, maybe 10s or less.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 8):
1 min to transition? Lame. Makes quick peeks to see where you are a thing of the past.

Quick peeks are instant because the window never goes opaque; that was part of the whole point. Regardless of tint level, you can always see out. And, if you're on the sunny side of the airplane, you can do it without the physiological equivalent of blasting a 1 million candlepower spotlight at your sleeping seatmate.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):

Actually, I heard very little whining about traditional window blinds.

There's tons of whining, you're just not asking the right people. The interiors engineers hate them (complex, fragile, moving parts), the mechanics hate them (fragile, finicky, frequent replacement), the performance guys hate them (heavy), the flight attendants hate them (have to walk the whole cabin to close shades, have to harange passengers individually to open/close at the right times).

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
But with standard pull-down shades it only takes 2 seconds, not 30 seconds. It's a useless and potentially maintenance-intensive gimmick in my opinion, like "mood lighting".

It's considerably *less* maintenance. It's all solid state, no moving parts. And, in a dark cabin, when you go from full opaque to direct sunlight in under 2s, you're not making anyone around you happy.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
What happens when even one window goes technical???

It goes clear, the mechanic/flight attendant applies the tinted overlay designed for exactly this purpose. I do appreciate that people are sensitive to cabin issues but Boeing/Airbus aren't complete idiots, they do think of these things.

Quoting jonnyclark (Reply 18):
A gimmick perhaps? Or do you think there might be some logic behind it.

Quite a bit, actually.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):
I agree w viscount. Too complicated. Should have four settings.

It's got 5 now...is the jump from 4 to 5 really that unacceptable?

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):
Default state of window should also be 1/2 dim in case of malfunction.

That's a problem in an emergency; you want them to go clear if anything goes wrong.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):
This setup would have near instant response like all other existing tech of this kind.

There are multiple technologies; these windows are electrochromic, which doesn't have instant response.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 20):
It seems to me like a solution in search of a problem, an answer to a question nobody asked, and a cure worse than the disease. In other words, I don't see the point.

Lighter, less maintenance, better viewing experience for everyone while maintaining a sleepable cabin, central control for flight attendant efficiency.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 20):
From an engineering perspective, it's stupid - you're taking a proven, simple system that works and replacing it with an unproven, technically complex system that doesn't work as well.

Technically complex? It's a sheet of glass with a wire and a switch. It's almost guaranteed to have less parts than the sliding shade. And it's solid state


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20431 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
I hear pax and ANA FAs have issues with 787 dimmable window shade

What are your sources? Can you verify them? Are these statements public knowledge? Can you link us?

Or are you just feeding us grapevine whispers?



arpdesign.wordpress.com
25 spacecadet : First, it's not just a sheet of glass with a wire and a switch. Go down to Radio Shack and buy those three items and tell me if what you end up with
26 Post contains images GearDownFlaps30 : That is a brillant one ! If I had enough posts, I would have added you to my "RR list". Cheers, Steven
27 Post contains images bikerthai : If folk here can see the back side of a sidewall with a pull-down shade, they'll see how "simple" it is. I think everyone is so used to the instance
28 Tristarsteve : I like the advert just showing now on this thread for Blinds Supermarket. Buy a blind for only 9 GBP (and take it on board?) Anyway, our airline is ha
29 kdhurst380 : I had a play with a demo at BA's last open day, it was quite underwhelming. It did go very dark, but it was incredibly slow. Give me window shades any
30 yeogeo : Hold on... How many people on this thread have actually used these shades on a 787? Anyone? I think its far more likely that people want to complain
31 kdhurst380 : Whilst it wasn't on the aircraft itself, I've used the technology, and as I said in my post above, I wasn't impressed. They were slow, very slow in f
32 tdscanuck : At least one. Tom.
33 Post contains images ER757 : Yes, and inventing the remote control for your TV was a waste too - after all, you can just get up and turn the knob to switch channels or lower the
34 Post contains images yeogeo : Yourself, I gather? Yet, you're not whining about them yeo
35 tdscanuck : Yes. Absolutely not. I *LOVE* them. I've flown with them at night, in the day, long flights, short flights, bright sun, overcast, I've slept, I've be
36 Post contains images CM : I've flown on the 787 many times, including flights exceeding 12 hours and on a demo flight full of airline commercial people who were evaluating the
37 TJCAB : iShades? LOL wouldn't e-shades have been a more appropriate name. Off topoc, will the 747-8 have these electonic shades?
38 PM : I have. I can't see what the fuss is about.
39 Post contains links Reggaebird : You can see the operation of the window at 4:39 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPowQe6Y6A
40 Post contains links duncan16 : Here is another video, shot straight on at the window rather than an angle, which seems to make a difference. Is this the darkest it can get, or maybe
41 Post contains images lightsaber : I thank the four users of the shades for their input. I'm going to discuss from the airline's point of view. Let's face it, how many people really ope
42 ha763 : As you can see by the neighboring windows, which he does shoot directly in front of when he walks forward 2 windows, the window gets a lot darker. Al
43 Post contains links Reggaebird : The lighting was very impressive in person. There was one configuration called dusk that could definitely relax one into sleep mode. Sorry that it wa
44 tdscanuck : You don't even need to undim it; at full tint you can still see the world outside. I actually works better when the whole cabin is fully tinted becau
45 C010T3 : I guess my only fear about the dimmable window is the glass temperature. At night, when trying to sleep, I would frequently use the shades with or wit
46 zippyjet : Maybe a bit off the electronic 787 shades but, as a kid I remember flying on 727's and other classics such as the DC-9 and 720 and the shades didn't c
47 klkla : The nerds that need to constantly look out their window shades and disrupt the peaceful experience other premium paying passengers are trying to exper
48 Quokkas : If you hadn't noticed, the only people who are whinging are those who complain in isn't dark enough or does get dark quickly enough. You can still se
49 sabenapilot : i've done a trip on the 787 and it's utterly annoying indeed: the window NEVER gets to full darkness during daylight and it takes an INCREDIBLY long t
50 Quokkas : Fact is that in day light, the traditional shades did not exclude 100% of the light either. But why would you want the cabin fully dark? Because one
51 sabenapilot : It's really not about keeping out all of the daylight during dayflights, it's about taking out any reflections from the sun. I am often blinded by th
52 garpd : As stated above, there are. I suggest you read the very well informed posts by TDSCanuck and Lightsaber.
53 sabenapilot : You have to quote me correctly, i've said there isn't any for a passenger. Answer these 2 simple questions: - If you want to sleep, read a book or sur
54 windshear : LOL
55 aerorobnz : I have used the boeing shades on the 787 demo in direct sunlight, and it was not really quick but not slow by any means. Darkest setting is very pleas
56 AngMoh : You need to quote it in full: That was Sabenapilot's observation as a passenger. Most of the benefits quoted by TDSCanuck and Lightsaber are for the
57 mal787 : Even with a coventional window shade , in full sun it is not "dark" . Looks to me that some people are expecting to much , ever heard or eye shades or
58 knoxibus : The question I would have about this feature is how well will it cope with full solar exposure for a certain period of time on the ground in sunny and
59 nomadd22 : The time it takes to go the range of dimming is probably whatever Boeing wants it to be. The slower you go, the easier it is to make fine adjustments
60 boeing12345 : A system that works...yes but not always that durable. As a tech I always hated when I would see a family onboard and the kid was slamming the shade
61 Post contains links and images CXB77L : I've never flown on the 787, but based on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ghGITcaSU and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvCWxFKu-BQ ... I
62 Post contains links Quokkas : This publication from the manufacturer may answer some of those questions. It includes a diagram of how the "window" fits within the overall window fr
63 tdscanuck : Neither; I want an eyemask so I've got something light-tight. Neither a conventional shade nor a tinted window will do that, *especially* if I'm not
64 knoxibus : Thanks a lot for the find and information. I understand that this should take care of the solar exposure...if the A/C is powered though. However, my
65 sankaps : Actually it depends on the specs of the conventional shades. On some airlines / aircraft it is indeed not fully dark, they let in a fair bit of trans
66 bikerthai : And the eye mask would also help with the cabin lighting. As I recall, even during sleep time, the cabin don't go completely dark due to the cabin ba
67 Stitch : Let us not forget that this technology is not something Boeing forced airlines to take under duress. Enough of them signed off on it during the develo
68 SEA : I never thought people could get so bitter about something so simple... I'm guessing that, in the end, these window shades won't matter at all to the
69 Reggaebird : There seems to be variance in perception of the window dimming feature. When I saw the demo (shown at 4:39 in the video above) and subsequently playe
70 SSTeve : All we need is a little patience to see whether this is a success or failure. If it's a success, it will appear on more airplanes. If it's a failure,
71 bonusonus : This isn't necessarily true. The 787 has very large windows-- it's possible that there wasn't enough room for conventional shades to slide all the wa
72 Reggaebird : This begs the question, what is the window's non-functional state? Is it clear when "turned off" or darkened? If the answer is darkened, that could e
73 bikerthai : It is clear if there's a fault. See Tom's post 23. Never thought of that. Any information on the dimension from the top of the window to the top of t
74 Viscount724 : How often are aircraft windows replaced on average? Do they have a maximum lifespan or are they only changed when necessary? What's the cost differenc
75 lightsaber : What will really matter, in the long run, is cost. The success, or failure, will be 80% driven by cost and 20% by passenger perception. Recall, 6 or 8
76 AngMoh : I checked specification of electrochromic glass (have to admit that I don't know which class is actually used in the 787) and for all of them which I
77 duncan16 : I may be able to fly sooner than a few years out, but not for some months. Of course there's nothing like being on-board to learn whether the windows
78 tdscanuck : That's what I've been told; I've never actually put eyeballs on one. Clear. Windows themselves? Rarely. It's important to note there are really three
79 CiC : Hm, for TG I can agree, that they are busy in the Galley, for LH&NZ I had other experiences... Worst example, on one flight JFK-FRA I spent 6hrs
80 Post contains images DocLightning : For you and the others who are whining about this, I have always taken one of these little high-tech, very sophisticated gadgets on every long-haul f
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