Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
No AA Flights To Hong Kong?  
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13205 times:

Why is there no AA services to Hong Kong? Not only is it an important aviation hub but it is also an important OneWorld hub.


Work Hard But Play Harder
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13127 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

AA has not had the airplanes to fly to Hong Kong. Their new 777-300ER should allow AA to fly to HKG from DFW, ORD or LAX.

User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13003 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

this has been talked about many times.

LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12964 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
so that leaves ORD

Cathay Pacific operates HKG-ORD daily.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12940 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..

Cathay flies daily to ORD and the flight is codeshared with AA. AA is also using their agreements with JL to connect through NRT to HKG and other points in Asia.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12767 times:

American's network east and west is pretty tiny, I was astonished how little they fly on their own metal.

User currently offlinen92r03 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12441 times:

AA code shares with CX out of JFK I think 4x daily as well. I think there are issues with the pilot union if AA was ever to try HKG-DFW.

User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12176 times:

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 6):
. I think there are issues with the pilot union if AA was ever to try HKG-DFW.

Really? What kinds? Have these been resolved with the BK process? I know there was just recently some announcement on long haul flying.


User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 639 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12143 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay

As are SFO (2x daily) and ORD (1x daily)

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
American's network east and west is pretty tiny, I was astonished how little they fly on their own metal.

It is definitely underwhelming. They have, what, one transpacific route? But I guess it is perhaps better to let a 5-star partner do that work rather than on AA's own 3-star outfit.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12040 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 7):
Really? What kinds? Have these been resolved with the BK process? I know there was just recently some announcement on long haul flying.

AA needs to negotiate with pilot's union's to fly routes over a certain block time, I think it is over 16 hours but I am not exactly sure, as they are not allowed under the contract. It is what killed AA's DFW-PEK proposal a few years back and I am sure is something they will address during their bankruptcy proceedings.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11991 times:

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 8):
It is definitely underwhelming. They have, what, one transpacific route? But I guess it is perhaps better to let a 5-star partner do that work rather than on AA's own 3-star outfit.

With the amounts of destinations in Asia and in Europe it is a bit underwhelming where they fly with their own metal. But with Europe they have a very large operation in LHR and they of course have a huge network in the Caribbean and Latin America.

And Asia with their own metal is: NRT, PVG, PEK and HND.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinehz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1677 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11698 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I don't think there is a need for it. CX has JFK, ORD, and LAX, covered. I have transitted through LAX and JFK, on connecting AA flights, and it was relatively seemless. On the flip side, many of the flights leaving Hong Kong on CX carry an AA flight number, especially regionally. One flight, seemed to have the whole OneWorld flight designation I recall, AA, BA, and Finnair.

All that said, they may want a token flight a with a 77W to Hong Kong, but I would again ask why, they should send it somewhere else which isn't covered. It can't be cheap to open a station when you are bankrupt.

After flying AA from ORD to PVG just a few weeks ago, I was shocked that there were no Chinese flight attendants and no announcements in Chinese, on a flight which was probably 70% Chinese passengers.

Here's another question... Would they seek a different a Pacific strategy should US/AA merge?



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7615 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11674 times:

I wouldnt mind seeing DFW-HKG, but that is probably a job for the 787. The 77W seems too much plane.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13129 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11292 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
AA needs to negotiate with pilot's union's to fly routes over a certain block time, I think it is over 16 hours but I am not exactly sure, as they are not allowed under the contract. It is what killed AA's DFW-PEK proposal a few years back and I am sure is something they will address during their bankruptcy proceedings.

I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11186 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

I totally agree with you. I'm shocked that they are against long haul flights. As former crew myself I would have loved a 3 day worth 32 hours with only two legs. I don't understand why they are against them.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10349 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
Cathay Pacific operates HKG-ORD daily.
Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,

They codeshare quite well with CX and IMHO UA has the best service quality out of HKG. They've had some presence there for some time and from what I heard, it's a much better product. I'd be interested to see however how AA would do if, lets say, CX drops a flight to ORD or LAX and AA picks up that slot.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10016 times:

I find it funny how people criticize AA for not having an Asian/Pacific network, then turn around and say AA shouldn't fly here or there because CX or QF already does.  

AA needs to start flying their own metal, and stop acting like a virtual airline just to feed CX,QF and BA. Hopefully once the pilots get smacked down in court, AA can start expanding in Asia.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 11):
Here's another question... Would they seek a different a Pacific strategy should US/AA merge?

Why would they. US brings absolutely nothing to the Pacific operation in the form of strategic outlook or actual routes. AA's strategy, albeit slow in moving, has been in place for a few years.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 11):
It can't be cheap to open a station when you are bankrupt.

Its obvious that new routes like HKG would come after bankruptcy and pilot issues are resolved.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 4):
AA is also using their agreements with JL to connect through NRT to HKG and other points in Asia.

That just means double connections for pax outside of the big hubs.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8922 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 16):
find it funny how people criticize AA for not having an Asian/Pacific network, then turn around and say AA shouldn't fly here or there because CX or QF already does.

Just because Cathay flies from many US cities and AA hubs to HKG doesn't mean AA shouldn't. Can you imagine if AA told BA " stop fying from JFK to LHR because we do " or if AA said to LAN " we fly from Miami to Santiago and Lima so you guys can't" ? They would tell AA "go to hell ".

IF CX has so many flights to the USA there is enough room for AA to fly to HKG from ORD & DFW.


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8612 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

  

To be frank, the pilots don't care about AA going to HKG or any other destinations requiring an agreement. They still sulk about the same pay they are getting from 2003 and now the airline is in chp 11 and retirement is the hot topic. It's unfortunate would the AA network looks like now.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11634 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.
Quoting fxramper (Reply 18):
To be frank, the pilots don't care about AA going to HKG or any other destinations requiring an agreement. They still sulk about the same pay they are getting from 2003 and now the airline is in chp 11 and retirement is the hot topic. It's unfortunate would the AA network looks like now.

Something else I found fascinating from AA's section 1113 submission a few weeks back was another provision of the APA contract that I had never heard of before. It obviously was being interpreted by AA, in their submission, so I will be interesting to get the pilots' side of the story, but nonetheless it was very interesting.

Apparently, according to AA, this provision sets the amount of international codesharing that AA is allowed to do by creating a baseline of longhaul block hours flown by AA pilots. If AA falls below that baseline, it cannot codeshare international, or cannot codeshare as much internationally. (I'm not sure of the specifics.) AA's gripe is that this baseline never goes down - it only goes up - so if AA has to cut back on longhaul flying for any reason, the baseline that sets international codesharing still stays at the higher level.

There is a lot of detail in there that AA is obviously leaving out - thus why I'll be interested to get the APA side of the story in coming weeks - but based on the way the company is laying it out, it is obvious why this contract language would definitely dis-incentivize AA to take risks with more longhaul flying - particularly longer flights (like to Asia) that involve many block hours of pilot time: AA doesn't ever want to get caught in a situation where the flying doesn't work out, or the economy softens, and they could be left having to end lucrative international codeshares as a result.

[Edited 2012-04-07 06:15:22]

User currently offlineBoxBoy From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 50 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8010 times:

I don't understand how people can really believe that the pilots are holding AA back. The reason that the ultra long haul flights need to be "negotiated" with APA is that there are simply no established rules for it in the contract. It is not a "money grab".

The company doesn't want AA to fly the routes. They are satisfied with letting the codeshares do it. The reason for the contract's limitation on code share is to force AA to use their metal. The AA crews WANT to do the flying. AA DOES NOT. In bankruptcy, AA will try to eliminate the scope clause so that more of the flying can be done by code share.

If the pilots and FAs would go to AA and say that in the best interest of the company that they would be willing to buy AA a 777 and fly it for free to HKG, AA would walk away from the table and make a press release stating that the crews are being "unreasonable".

AA DOES NOT WANT TO DO THE FLYING.


User currently offlineAAIL86 From Finland, joined Feb 2011, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7682 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
With the amounts of destinations in Asia and in Europe it is a bit underwhelming where they fly with their own metal.

PA gave them first shot on their pacific network back in '85. Crandall also took the helm at AA in '85 - bad timing for American - if PA had made that offer a year later- for example- the results could have been different. As it stands, AA has tried to break into the transpac market for a long time- but eroding NW and UA's territory was always difficult.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
I wouldnt mind seeing DFW-HKG, but that is probably a job for the 787. The 77W seems too much plane.

Probably so- but AA's 77W will be much more competitive hard-product wise - so there will be opportunities.



Next
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7479 times:

The Asian market is a definite weakness in AA's network.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlinethrufru From Marshall Islands, joined Feb 2009, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

I often get a kick out of reading threads like this, and find it really interesting how they so often devolve into speculation and basic incorrect information due to posts written by a bunch of armchair executives. As "BoxBoy" pointed out, without this type of flying being covered in the AA CBA, there is no reason for the crews to fly it.

It would be great if we truly lived and worked in a world where everyone's best interests meshed seamlessly and everyone operated in good faith. We don't. Without clear and concise rules and agreements in place, companies can and do run roughshod over their employees. Have you ever had a V.P. literally laugh in the face of Union Representatives because he interpreted something differently? And that's with a CBA...

As to whether or not AA will open up more Asian markets when they have the capabilities, it's all speculation. But to simplify it to the point of blaming it on crews is inappropriate.

I also question if any person on these forums would be happy with their wage scale being frozen 9 years ago, while you see your managers continuing to reap phenomenal compensation packages.


User currently onlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
AA has not had the airplanes to fly to Hong Kong.

Can't their 772ER's make it? UA does it from EWR and I'm pretty sure a 777 can make it to HKG from LAX and even DFW.



Go coogs! \n//
25 airportugal310 : Please...don't try to tell me that "union representatives" always have the best interest of the company in mind either. Their responsibility is to th
26 chapavaeaa : Years ago when I worked for AA we did a 777-200 flight DFW-ORD-HKG-ORD. It was a test run for north polar ops as I recall. I was offered a seat...and
27 wrldtvlr : Let's hope so. I think a DFW-HKG would have plenty of feeder traffic from the South and parts of the Midwest. There wouldn't be much to worry about o
28 MAH4546 : The 744 is too much plane for DFWSYD, but that is working. No reason a 77W can't be filled on DFWHKG given the strength of both hubs. Yes, DVWHKG is
29 sunnyflyer : Arriving at ORD the next gate was to Shanghai, approaching that gate was a gang of Asian AA, FA's judging the number I would say the whole plane would
30 hz747300 : That was me. And there was Chinese announcements by a Chinese AA employee at the gate, but not on the plane. At no point, not even recorded messages.
31 jfk777 : AA has not cut back many 777 routes, the two are Chicago to Dehli and JFK to NRT( AA restarted JFK-HND).
32 commavia : AA has cut more 777 flying than that since 2003, the last time AA and the APA signed a new contract (although this provision may well have been in th
33 MAH4546 : AA will likely be announcing a new long-haul station in a very short time, maybe this week. I have no idea what it is, but HKG would not shock me.
34 jfk777 : Africa should see silver. Can you imagine an AA silver 777 flying over the Victoria and Alferd waterfront in Capetown. South Africa is the most impor
35 Post contains images Byrdluvs747 : Short of an AA order for 748's, there's nothing AA could announce that would make me happier than new Africa routes or HKG. I completely agree. AA nee
36 MAH4546 : Can't blame AA. Russia-U.S. bilateral is extremely restrictive with codeshares, and only in the last year has Russia started to loosen up, hence more
37 Byrdluvs747 : Even with govt codeshare restrictions, at the very least AA could have interlined pax onto S7 metal and vice-versa via the booking engine. I remember
38 flythere : Havent heard of such rumour from this side yet, but would be most welcome if true!
39 jfk777 : For Johannesburg Miami would be the better gateway for AA, it dominates MIA and SAA flies to JFK.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
UAL's Flights To Hong Kong...... posted Sat May 24 2003 06:00:15 by United Airline
Finnair To Start Flights To Hong Kong posted Fri Mar 2 2001 15:38:38 by The Ticketor
Will AA Fly To Hong Kong? posted Fri Dec 22 2000 10:54:34 by United Airline
Cargo Flights From Hong Kong To The US? posted Thu Oct 3 2002 16:39:33 by Hkgspotter1
MEA Commencing Beirut To Hong Kong Flights? posted Tue Jun 11 2002 07:32:18 by MEA
Flights From Hong Kong To Seoul, Korea posted Sun Dec 31 2000 20:52:38 by United Airline
China Eastern's Flights From Hong Kong To China posted Sat Dec 30 2000 18:45:10 by United Airline
AA New Service To Hong Kong? posted Wed Jul 19 2000 11:25:59 by N503JB
About AA To Hong Kong? posted Sat Jun 17 2000 19:55:41 by N503JB
Should There Be Flights From Hong Kong To Montreal posted Tue Dec 21 1999 23:21:07 by Aviationman