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US 'Officially' after AA Merger  
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5048 posts, RR: 21
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 43470 times:

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/106...ys-pushes-for-merger-with-american

Excerpt:

It was reported earlier that US Airways was in talks with some creditors and advisers of bankrupt American Airlines regarding a takeover of the carrier. Some members of the unsecured creditors committee were said to have given a positive response to US Airways' plan for the combined airline. The objective was to complete the combination before AMR exits Chapter 11 protection.

To me the key word is "before". Looks like the wheels are in motion now.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
238 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5170 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 43350 times:

This shotgun wedding doesn't seem to me like it will be a smoothe situation like United (if you call that smooth) or Delta. They haven't resolved the issues with the US/HP merger yet.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6882 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 43229 times:

Good grief. It seems not that long ago that US Airways was the runt of the litter, far behind American, United, Delta, Northwest and Continental. Now they stand to become one of the three survivors. I would never have put money on that.

That said, there is some sort of inevitable logic to a US-AA merger leaving the USA with three major league carriers.

Then the question becomes, who eats who to leave us with two...?   


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 42937 times:
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Quoting drerx7 (Reply 1):
They haven't resolved the issues with the US/HP merger yet.

A real head-scratcher.

I've been on USAir Shuttle flights with some older FAs I remembered from America West of old, suggesting resolution of the issue. Then, I've been on transcon A321s and heard crew-members refer to themselves as "East" or "West." Yes the company seems to be bifurcated, and yes employees seem to consider two mini-companies working as one -- normal.

Kudos to USAirways if they manage such a merger without getting terminal indigestion.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 42845 times:

UH OH.....

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Good grief. It seems not that long ago that US Airways was the runt of the litter, far behind American, United, Delta, Northwest and Continental. Now they stand to become one of the three survivors. I would never have put money on that.

US came VERY CLOSE to going out of business in 2004 before they merged with HP. HP basically took over US, with keeping the US name and color scheme.

While I don't ever fly US (no point when United is an all around better airline) they are a notch below DL, AA, and UA. However over the last few years the gap in quality has narrowed.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11522 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 42729 times:

This is nothing new. This is the same story that has been out for over a week, with no new information that I could see. USAirways wants to merge with AA (nothing new there), and they have begun talking to members of the creditors committee (again, nothing new as of a week ago). USAirways is no more "officially" after an AA merger now than they have been for at least several weeks.

User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42618 times:
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Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
However over the last few years the gap in quality has narrowed.

They recovered very quickly from (1) charging for every drink service on every flight -- even transcons -- and (2) refusing to honor vouchers given to passengers for giving up their seats on overbooked flights.

I'm surprised that alone didn't put them out of business.


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42610 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
I've been on USAir Shuttle flights with some older FAs I remembered from America West of old, suggesting resolution of the issue.

I thought the F/As still fly separate lfights? Or is that just the pilots who stick to East and West?


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42537 times:
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Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
I thought the F/As still fly separate lfights?

So did I.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
Or is that just the pilots who stick to East and West?

I have no idea. Perhaps someone else knows.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42444 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Thread starter):
Excerpt:

It was reported earlier that US Airways was in talks with some creditors and adviaiallysers of bankrupt American Airlines regarding a takeover of the carrier. Some members of the unsecured creditors committee were said to have given a positive response to US Airways' plan for the combined airline. The objective was to complete the combination before AMR exits Chapter 11 protection.

To me the key word is "before". Looks like the wheels are in motion now.


I think you can use the word "officially" when it has been announced by either US or AA. Until then it is just specualation


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42414 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
US came VERY CLOSE to going out of business in 2004 before they merged with HP.

Correct. It was the Airbus loan garuntees that kept US from going out of business. The 2004 Bankruptcy was their second one in about 5-6 years.

Where is US going to get the money for a merger with AA? I believe AA has about $4B in cash to be able to fight the merger, which means US must come up with more money than that, if AA decides the merger isn't in their best interest. I can see both Boeing and Airbus getting deep into this (even though they shouldn't) to protect their interests.

This doesn't even address the unions. That will be a major stumbling point for or against the merger.

Finally, there is the Justice Department, which must sign off on the merger. I don't think what time is left for the Obama Administration will want to take sides in a union against union dispute in an election year. The next administastion may not be comfortable with it either.

For the next administration, if Airbus money is involved, I just don't see them wanting to approve a merger that will hurt Boeing aircraft sales.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42392 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
While I don't ever fly US (no point when United is an all around better airline) they are a notch below DL, AA, and UA. However over the last few years the gap in quality has narrowed.

If the 2012 Airline Quality Report is to be believed, US is actually doing better than UA.

2012 US Airline Quality Rating (by nycdave Apr 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16856 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42223 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
While I don't ever fly US (no point when United is an all around better airline) they are a notch below DL, AA, and UA. However over the last few years the gap in quality has narrowed.

Just flew this past Christmas to Orlando with my Wife on US from PHL. The US flights from PHL were substantially cheaper than either B6 or UA from EWR, and PHL is not that much farther of a drive. While there are some differences in service, and the 757 and 762 we flew on were absolutely showing their age, the flights were clean, safe and on time. It was nice to once again be flying a widebody to Florida for the holidays, reminded me of my childhood flying CO, DL, EA, PA widedbodies to Florida.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42161 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
It was nice to once again be flying a widebody to Florida for the holidays, reminded me of my childhood flying CO, DL, EA, PA widedbodies to Florida.

  Yes, that must be nice. I had this feeling a few years ago on an AA A-300 MIA-JFK.

Was US deploying the 762 to Florida just for the holidays? Just how dated was it?!!! I'd love to fly one of them before they're retired...


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42133 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
Just flew this past Christmas to Orlando with my Wife on US from PHL. The US flights from PHL were substantially cheaper than either B6 or UA from EWR, and PHL is not that much farther of a drive. While there are some differences in service, and the 757 and 762 we flew on were absolutely showing their age, the flights were clean, safe and on time. It was nice to once again be flying a widebody to Florida for the holidays, reminded me of my childhood flying CO, DL, EA, PA widedbodies to Florida.

Like I said, the gap has narrowed but US is clearly not on the same level, especially from a premium perspective. The lack of meals in F on short to medium hauls is embarrassing, no economy plus, arguably the worst fleet of TATL 757s, lack of IFE in the domestic US of any kind is a drag, and the fact that the unions STILL haven't integrated yet is attrocious.

...But if you don't care about any of these things then US is fine.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16856 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 42013 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):

Was US deploying the 762 to Florida just for the holidays? Just how dated was it?!!! I'd love to fly one of them before they're retired...

When we landed back at PHL I notice our 762 was continuing on to ZRH. And yes the interior was very dated, small bins, no PTVs etc.. But I enjoyed it.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 14):
Like I said, the gap has narrowed but US is clearly not on the same level, especially from a premium perspective. The lack of meals in F on short to medium hauls is embarrassing, no economy plus, arguably the worst fleet of TATL 757s, lack of IFE in the domestic US of any kind is a drag, and the fact that the unions STILL haven't integrated yet is attrocious.

...But if you don't care about any of these things then US is fine.

The price was right, $500 for my Wife and I r/t during Christmas (plus we earned Mileage Plus miles). B6 and UA wanted about $350 more from EWR. PHL used to be a little kept secret for Onepass members in NJ because it was always cheaper fly from PHL than EWR and there were plenty of upgrades to be had. CO/UA have caught on.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 41981 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
This is nothing new. This is the same story that has been out for over a week, with no new information that I could see. USAirways wants to merge with AA (nothing new there), and they have begun talking to members of the creditors committee (again, nothing new as of a week ago). USAirways is no more "officially" after an AA merger now than they have been for at least several weeks.

Agreed.

I have no knowledge of how US Bankruptcy law operates, but can US takeover AA if the AA board deems the deal is not in the interests of shareholders, employees or creditors? Is the decision wholly up to creditors and lenders in a bankruptcy situation?

To put it another way: how much influence would the AA board have over this if they were not interested in a tie up with US?


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 41876 times:

AMR still has the exclusive right to file a plan of reorganization. I'm not sure when that time frame expires, but US can't do anything until the period of exclusivity expires.

Beyond that, US management has to realize that AA has some pretty strong unions. They managed to staple the TWA workers to the bottom of the seniority lists, and the APFA didn't create a fence around the STL hub the way the APA did for TWA pilots.

There is still bad blood between former TWA F/As and the APFA, since a number of TWA F/As were furloughed for so long that they dropped from the recall list.

So, US management, who is still dealing with the issue of US and former HP pilots still unable to agree to a unified seniority list, will be dealing with a labor headache, as the US and AA unions try to agree to unified seniority lists.

I know that ORD pilots have been irritated for the last few years, because STL pilots can bid for ORD trips.

It's safe to assume that there will be issues about switching hubs and trying to fly the 772s and 773s.

Obviously, there are a number of things about merging US and AA that make sense. US lacks a Midwestern hub, which AA has at ORD. AA lacks a southeast hub, which US has at CLT. The list goes on.

But, the potential for labor issues, in my opinion, makes the deal a bad one. Even if the pilots were to solve the seniority issue in the next few months, so that US operates as a single carrier for pilots, F/As, mechanics, and ground crew, AA's unions would make things miserable.

Even deciding on a single union for each work group would be interesting.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41788 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
I thought the F/As still fly separate lfights? Or is that just the pilots who stick to East and West?

I think they can fly on any aircraft, BUT they cannot mix up the crews. i.e. you cannot have two East F/A working with a West F/A.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Where is US going to get the money for a merger with AA? I believe AA has about $4B in cash to be able to fight the merger, which means US must come up with more money than that, if AA decides the merger isn't in their best interest. I can see both Boeing and Airbus getting deep into this (even though they shouldn't) to protect their interests.

HP didn't have a bunch of cash on hand for the US acquisition either, it was made available by creditors. And I would not entirely assume AA would use that $4B to fight a merger. It might be put to better use after a merger. It will come down to what the creditors and BOD decide. AA management doesn't have as much of a say.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
This doesn't even address the unions. That will be a major stumbling point for or against the merger.

I have a feeling things will be at least superficially hashed out between the unions before any kind of announcement is made. I think the AA unions have had their bluff called by AA and now they will be looking for a way to gracefully bow out of the fight.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Yes, that must be nice. I had this feeling a few years ago on an AA A-300 MIA-JFK.

HOW many years ago? I missed out on A300 flying.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41764 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
So, US management, who is still dealing with the issue of US and former HP pilots still unable to agree to a unified seniority list, will be dealing with a labor headache, as the US and AA unions try to agree to unified seniority lists.

AS far as I know the fact is that both US management AND unions agreed to binding arbitration, but the East pilots scuppered that, appraently "binding" is not "binding" as far as they are concerned. US management clearly feel that there is no need to stir up a hornets nest, while an uneasy truce has been called. Frankly, a US/AA merger has the potential to bite US East badly. They will no longer be the larger group, the AA group will be, by quite a significant margin.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7110 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41682 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Thread starter):
Some members of the unsecured creditors committee were said to have given a positive response to US Airways' plan for the combined airline.

Here is the creditors committee:
1) Allied Pilots Association, the union for American Airlines about 9,000 pilots.
2) Association of Professional Flight Attendants, the union for American’s about 16,000 flight attendants.
3) Transport Workers Union of America - AFL-CIO, the union for about 23,000 employees, including mechanics, fleet service workers and others.
4) Manufacturers and Traders Trust Co., based in Baltimore, Md.
5) Wilmington Trust Co., based in Wilmington, Del.
6) The Bank of New York Mellon, based in New York.
7) The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., based in Washington, D.C.
8) Hewlett-Packard Enterprise Services LLC, based in Plano.
9) Boeing Capital Corp., based in Renton, Wash.

I'm going to assume that management is against the merger, but I don't know if that is really true.

Let's handicap this.
#1 AGAINST - obvious
#2 AGAINST - obvious
#3 AGAINST - obvious
#4/5/6 SPLIT. Aircraft lessors. Newer A/C holders will probably side with management, but for holders of the older A/C (that's most of the leased A/C) they will probably side with US because most have an existing relationship with US and they know AA is going to shaft them.
#7 FOR. Bound to whoever offers the best pension solution. That is probably US because AA is trying to ignore them and it won't take much for US to establish a better relationship. Plus, it puts pressure on AA to accept their demands.
#8 AGAINST. They will probably support management I'd guess because vendors want more future business and don't want to make an enemy of AA management.
#9 FOR. Boeing will go with whatever makes it most likely that their existing orders will be taken. I'd guess that is going with management.

It's actually pretty close if it were a democratic vote, but I don't think it works exactly like that. I'd say the three labor groups will sabotage any deal if they are able to do so.


User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41636 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
Was US deploying the 762 to Florida just for the holidays? Just how dated was it?!!! I'd love to fly one of them before they're retired...

I flew the 762 last year from CLT to GIG. Boy, it was really dated! No PTV of course, small bins, worn out seats, and it wasn't clean either. Not fit for a intercontinental flight ... compared to the competition.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3431 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41512 times:

A300s flew JFK-MIA until they left the fleet.


As for US and AA, I have never been a merger mania guy, but I DO see this one happening.

Simply because, with whatever knowledge I have as a human interested and involved with airlines, I do not see AA having a viable business plan going forward.

Grow the cornerstones by 20% with mainline flying when they have:

1. An ancient fleet of MD 80s that need to be shed in BK
2. Not enough deliveries to cover what they currently have + any growth, let alone 20% growth
3. The planes that are coming are smaller than the planes going in many cases...meaning fewer average seats per aircraft and actually shrinking # pax carried per flight vs what they have now.
4. No slots in the all important NYC cornerstone...how to grow there?
5. How much are they really going to grow MIA? There is virtually no competition...in short order, they will get to the point that further growth will dilute revenue


They need a major shake up and a viable business plan going forward.

CLT, PHL, DCA, MIA, DFW, PHX.

NYC, LAX, ORD de-emphasized as connecting spots BUT re-emphasized as O and D: high freq service to hubs, business centers, and token international destinations.

Fleet: 737, A319/320/321, A330, B777. 767s/757s are gone. E190 gone. Multiple regional carriers with E170/175 flying.

That's really their best shot as a combined company


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1552 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41391 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 22):
Fleet: 737, A319/320/321, A330, B777. 767s/757s are gone. E190 gone. Multiple regional carriers with E170/175 flying.

Am I missing something? Isn't the E-190 (or C-series, B717, etc.) a good way to downguage from MD routes and bring between 70-seaters and your Airbus and 737 fleet?


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1798 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 41363 times:

I know this may sound weird, but if AA has more money than US, what's to stop AA from buying US?

25 luv2fly : Never going to happen, they have not be able to get there house in order for how many years! lease, this is like having a kid to save the marriage.
26 iFlyLOTs : The reason they have that cash isn't to try and buy other airlines with, its a day-to-day expenses type thing, in case something gets really bad like
27 mogandoCI : Because it's a one-directional love fest. Adding US doesn't solve many (if any) of AA's problems, but adding AA's network to US would drastically imp
28 B727FA : Actually, this depends on the size of the current union on property. I mentioned in a different post, if the US FA group (AFA) is less than 35% of th
29 Post contains images Acey559 : Where do I get my "Keep AA my AA" lanyard and button?
30 flashmeister : I see your reasoning, but I think that HP might just vote in favor. HP is developing a next-generation CRS for AA, that's true, but US is already a S
31 IrishAyes : Just what consumers need. Fewer options. Higher fares. Smaller jets. The thought of having only 3 remaining legacy US carriers makes me cringe.
32 Post contains images N62NA : Hmmmm.... sounds like the US 757s and 762s would fit in perfectly with the AA 757s...
33 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : If USAirways would be successful in pulling this off, which I doubt, this will be the stupidest thing that could happen. USAirways has yet to iron ou
34 phxa340 : As mentioned before, Boeing is a large creditor to AA and I don't think they would be too keen on seeing a majority Boeing customer (Pre Airbus A32X
35 Post contains links Coronado : At the March 22nd hearing AA and Eagle management were given exstention until Sept 28th on their prerogative to be the only group able to present a pr
36 EaglePower83 : That notion actually makes me very uneasy. This is a big nation and I'd like to think we can support a handful of carriers. I'm ardently in the Unite
37 rampart : A very big, and successful, domestic airline does not require full frills. That's why we have WN. My perception is that US, with it's LCC heritage in
38 Splitterz : Spot on. I could not have said it better myself. I am all for viable carriers in this country, but I think it would be reaalllllyyyy bad for the cons
39 ASA : Wouldn't the same argument apply equally, if not more to AA than US? Apologies if I'm missing something. Historically, AA has been a loyal Boeing (in
40 Post contains images kgaiflyer : A netters have been trying to get rid of the E-190 jets for several years (apparently because they don't fit some A.netter's business plan ). The tro
41 TOMMY767 : Then I'd say US has an identity crisis. They offer full frills like any of the other majors, but somehow they aren't allowed to be on the same level
42 phxa340 : The last Boeing HP/US ordered I believe was their old 737s, 757s, and seriously old 767s. Since then it has been all Airbus. I believe HP broke its t
43 commavia : Virtually none. The Board now has very little influence over the outcome - it's in the hands of the court, the trustee(s), and the Unsecured Creditor
44 chrisair : Pilots are still segregated. I shared a laugh with a HP captain who was on my AS flight over the weekend. I asked him if he wore his "CACTUS PILOT" b
45 Acey559 : As an Eagle employee, I really hope this doesn't happen because it will almost surely spell the end of us, in my opinion. I may lose my job and Eagle
46 mogandoCI : If US airways get a yes for a merger, that's a win for them. If they get a no for a merger but drive up the price for a joint TPG/IAG bid, that's a wi
47 comair25 : I just don't understand why AA would want this. Do they really want to be equally associated with US?
48 JFKPurser : No, actually there was a fence. As long a s TW FAs stayed at STL, they kept their relative seniority at STL. If an AA FA wanted to transfer into STL,
49 rampart : Didn't you say that they didn't offer full frills? That's the gist I got out of your previous post: I agree, they don't offer full frills, but they d
50 kgaiflyer : Many of which are former TWA 757s (some -- believe it or not -- still with TWA's signature seat covers).
51 PhxA340 : Agreed with the lack of IFE on US part is a complete bummer. I know most people have their Iphones and Ipads but I always enjoy the newer movies Unite
52 JFKPurser : Exactly. US has offered their FAs a TA that is much more generous that AA's 1113 term sheet to it's FAs. US FAs recently rejected it claiming it was
53 DTWPurserBoy : DL took some of the former TW 757's, too. DL arranged their 75's with the 4 overwing escape hatches. NW and TW opted for the escape door just aft of
54 enilria : I'd be shocked. I get the impression things are pretty sour between Sabre and AA. Also, as a RES system provider you are better off with more airline
55 C680 : Nobody has mentioned this one yet, but: *IF* US takes over AA, what are the chances HQ will move to PHX? That would make the second major airline to l
56 IrishAyes : ....because this is a hypothetical discussion and sadly that particular topic has been bashed to pulp in other threads, but bottom line is that the l
57 ripcordd : I really dont think the unions will be against such a merger it will all be clear when the judge decides on their contracts if they have get better co
58 TOMMY767 : I should have been more specific. They offer *half assed* frills compared to the other majors. I'll give them credit, they offer envoy class, lounges
59 ckfred : Would US have any interest in picking up the pension obligations of AA? I thought that between the bankruptcies of US, they had shed their pension pl
60 einsteinboricua : Nothing new, really. I think a balance of three (four?) giants will be quite comfortable with each carrier marking their territory and not daring to m
61 ckfred : TWA 757s had a P&W engine. Also, every switch in the cockpit threw the opposite direction as the switches in AA cockpits. So, if an AA switch thr
62 AADC10 : Don't forget that US CEO Doug Parker started out at AA under Robert Crandall. I am sure that he would like nothing better than taking over AA, even if
63 PhxA340 : IF and obviously it is a big IF they merge , everyone is saying PHX is toast. But I haven't heard anyone suggest an alternate for west coast traffic.
64 darksnowynight : Airfleets seem to agree with this. Um... What??!! Switches have a set pattern that they Must legally adhere to. For example, you will not see a switc
65 Post contains images EPA001 : To make predictions in aviation business is always difficult. I also would never have expected this possible outcome. That is the million Dollar ques
66 HPRamper : I think it's more likely that WN continues to de-emphasize PHX in favor of DEN - and that it will only accelerate when Wright goes away. Just my opin
67 Post contains links EricR : This order is not accurate. According to Scott Kirby, CLT and DCA are the most profitable, and PHX & PHL are middle of the pack. Also, considerin
68 Post contains images HPRamper : Don't you remember enilria said Kirby was lying about that order?
69 OzarkD9S : I don't see PHX as toast vs. LAX as some are touting either. They would both have a big role to play in a combined AA/US. Which is why I put the word
70 flyguy89 : It's very possible that CLT is at the top of US hubs in profitability but near the bottom in terms of profit margin...there's higher volume at CLT.
71 B757forever : With the exception of the landing light switches, most every switch in a 757 cockpit is a Korry style push button switch. Push on, push off.
72 FX1816 : If you mean that US has ex TWA 752's that is completely untrue. The TWA 752's were P&W powered while US has only operated RR powered ones. DL too
73 Post contains links flashmeister : Nope, it's true. Lots of documentation around to prove this one. For starters, see this earlier thread: TW's Cockpit Switches (by Timz Aug 3 2001 in
74 FX1816 : You are totally right. I remember back in the day working with Emery, all of those DC8's had very different switch lay outs which made them completel
75 B757forever : That is not possible when all 757 aircraft have Korry style push on, push off switches. Maybe on some Douglas products?
76 crAAzy : Agreed. Are we going to see a new thread opened up on the topic every week? Maybe we should have just one big offical US/AA merger speculation thread
77 Boeing773ER : I don't understand why you put your post in terms of AA would win with this, that and the other thing. AA isn't going to be the one taking over, it i
78 Post contains images panam330 : I hope this doesn't happen. Two brands that I'd prefer remain separate, selfishly. I like US for cheap, quick flights with dozens of options up and do
79 Post contains images AAIL86 : We don't know who would be calling the shots in this hypothetical AA/US merger. But even if it is Doug Parker, don't forget he started his career in
80 LDVAviation : You mean they haven't merged yet? I thought it was a done deal and the only question mark was how they would run their operations at LAX. [End sarcas
81 Boeing773ER : But the branding has no effect on who really runs the airline, I mean look at when HP-US merged. HP merged/bought US, US had the better name but US i
82 YYZAMS : WOW! Who knew? Another legacy down. WHere will the headquarters be? and when will this site offer RSS feeds so I can read this . Probably not going to
83 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm looking for more solid information. IMHO, US is too weak to take on digesting AA. In my opinion, one of the reasons AA entered BK with cash was to
84 F9Animal : It boggles my mind how Parker made a nearly gone company into a profitable well run airline. Not to mention how he got HP where it was. If a merger d
85 Longhornmaniac : DFW. No question. Sure, after going through two rounds of bankruptcy. US was considerably more "on the brink" then than AA is now. Let's not compare
86 Post contains images PHX787 : Oh boy, are we all having a field day with this one Where to start: Would you honestly call the transition with DL/NW smooth?! That was so rocky for a
87 laxboeingman : I think we all saw this coming. This will be very interesting and for the airlines' sake, I hope it will work out. This puts aviation on a whole diffe
88 Burkhard : I think that the international fact that there are three alliances makes it natural that there are three network carriers in the US. What makes me wo
89 LAXdude1023 : It's not nearly the same thing. The facilities AA has at DFW are so much larger and better than anything US has in Arizona. DFW simply is more equipp
90 usairways85 : Take the article with a grain of salt. I'd agree that US has an identity crisis. When they came up with the LCC idea they slashed IFE, reduced F cabi
91 FutureFO : Last week the head of the APA was actually in PHX to meet with US and its USAPA. That is generally the signalling of the start of something big.
92 PHX787 : Was Doug the CEO of US Airways Pre-merger with HP? I don't remember. At the same time though, when a merger like this happens, how can the employees
93 boberito6589 : Doug was CEO of HP pre merger
94 HPRamper : Probably having the option of either moving to DFW with their same position, offered a different position that stays at PHX, or an early retirement.
95 PHX787 : Not to change gears too quickly, but this was bugging my mind back when US tried to take over DL. I was too young to understand much back then, but wh
96 Post contains links and images dlramp4life : From Wikipedia:
97 B757forever : I can't help but think that Boeing, being one of DLs largest creditors, would not back the offer.
98 B727FA : Well, until AA opened a full-on AMR base. They closed the TWA base in STL on June 30 and the AMR base was opened at 0001 July 1st...with proffered AM
99 Atlwest1 : True true Also I think one of the biggest reasons is that the CEO who was a major shareholder in Delta at the time not only did a fantastic job at PR
100 PHX787 : So who is to say both of these will prevent AA from being taken over by US? IMO I can only see this as going south for both AA and US. AA needs to ge
101 dlramp4life : Agreed. Both have their issues, espically US with the crew unions, seems like that will never get resolved. Is boeing a creditor to AA as well?
102 PHX787 : I would assume, but with the recent purchase of those A320neos, I'm not 100%. Those neos would be the only viable integration to this potential merge
103 Post contains links PhxA340 : Yes. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...udes-unions-bondholders-banks.html That being said , they are not the only creditor so if they see a viab
104 MAH4546 : While I believe US will make it a valiant effort, they won't end up merging. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, AA will merge with B6. It sol
105 TOMMY767 : Parker has done good for the overall existance of US but not without trying to nickle and dime the Y passenger in any way possible. Charging for wate
106 MAH4546 : Outside of BOS and NYC, sure. But since BOS and NYC is most of the network, the network will, hence, likely not be torn up.
107 STT757 : Are you factoring in slot divestitures?
108 TOMMY767 : FLL is most at risk. I can't see a merged B6 and AA keeping both MIA and FLL as competing hubs.
109 MAH4546 : I doubt the combined entity would need to even give up a dozen slots, if anything. DL/US was far more harming to consumers, and they gave up practica
110 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Taking two BROKEN airlines and putting them together is NOT going to make ONE GOOD AIRLINE. They both have serious bad issues and they need to be take
111 STT757 : Not the same as they were not combining their operations.
112 MAH4546 : Depends if other airline scoop in. I doubt AA+B6 would give up a large, local monopoly route, like FLLBDL, for example. I also have no doubt the comb
113 EricR : I guess it depends on how you look at it. Parker is the CEO of a company. Among other things, he is tasked to create a profitable company today and i
114 PHX787 : I can't agree with you more, Rooster! Too many issues and too much speculation on all of our parts. This won't happen.
115 Rising : Both Horton and Parker would be hard pressed to go to their Boards and say we have a proposition here that could create value and generate security f
116 chepos : US Airways a broken airline? Yes the pilots and f/a's are not flying together under a contract yet, however, that does not make or break an airline. A
117 lucky777 : Huh??? The DL/NW transition was in fact as smooth as any airline merger in recent memory. Dare i say others could use it as a blueprint for future re
118 darksnowynight : In what way is US Airways broken? Now say that in a Lewis Black tone of voice and we have a winner! Companies ask their Managers, Operational Staff,
119 flyguy89 : This would only be the case if AA has no other opportunities. At this point, for all people really know, lowering their costs, exiting BK, and streng
120 delta2ual : I concur. Just having the pilots agree on a new seniority list and contract pre-merger was huge. I have pilot friends at both CO and UA and none of t
121 STT757 : The DOT/DOJ seems to have a love affair with LCCs, particularly WN and B6. I think the DOT/DOJ would be content if after the industry shake-up is over
122 JFKPurser : Horton won't have any say in this. He doesn't yet understand that within a few months, he will no longer have a job at AA, at least if the three unio
123 Byrdluvs747 : After the *****-slapping AT&T received from the DOJ, I don't think the govt is interested in so much concentration in the legacy arena. I think t
124 HPRamper : If the government doesn't allow AA to merge with US, they DEFINITELY won't allow them to merge with B6. Just too much concentrated in the Northeast.
125 Post contains links lucky777 : Are you so sure Lord Parker is having as much success negotiating with AA's unions as you profess? The facts would seem to show otherwise. The larges
126 web500sjc : What exactly would be a change of controll? It sounds like in this case US would be the acquiring party with a name change to AA. i would like to kno
127 IndianicWorld : I would suspect that a merger of AA-US would be a wise move at this stage, although not clear to the eye at first. This is the final piece in the puzz
128 HPRamper : "Lord Parker"? Because someone suggested he was acting intelligently? The snarkiness isn't really necessary.
129 Byrdluvs747 : I don't think the govt is looking at the Northeast as much as concentrating national pricing power split amongst a triopoly of AA+US, UA and DL. An A
130 Post contains links JFKPurser : With regard to those two articles you posted, you should know better than to believe everything you read in the press. There is a lot more happening
131 ca2ohHP : Agreed. My guess is Horton and company are waging a press war (such as releasing an internal company memo, which is unheard of in this age) in a desp
132 JFKPurser : This is exactly what they are doing. That's why Horton called Senator Kay and had her put out a broad statement saying that the best future for AA wa
133 lucky777 : Assuming a merger/takeover of AA by LCC comes to fruition, i would hope and pray senior AA management would be in charge. LCC has absolutely no idea h
134 JFKPurser : For that matter, neither does current AMR management. And say what you want, that chief "yahoo" in Tempe -- Parker('s) -- airline is currently making
135 etops1 : Lucky777, that is probably the most ignorant , baseless, stupid , And idiotic comment I have read so far pertaining to US ..
136 flyguy89 : ...with the help of bankruptcy to lower costs, an advantage which AA has yet to acquire unlike all it's other legacy rivals.
137 Byrdluvs747 : I see nothing that says "Plastic Cup" Parker and friends are qualified to run AA. In the time they've been running US, they've failed to grow the air
138 lucky777 : Parker and Co. have largely done it on the backs of LCC employee's, who are at the bottom of the payscale in EVERY category compared to every other l
139 HPRamper : I had to fight back a laugh at that one. But I know what you are getting at. If you recall anything about the US/HP merger (and I'm guessing you don'
140 AAExecplat : The question is "Do you know anything about the business world?" What's going to happen is that AA will fight off any takeover attempt with all the t
141 lucky777 : Why do you seem to think AA's unions are pro-merger/acquisition with regards to LCC....the 2 articles i posted showed AA's pilot's thought exactly th
142 HPRamper : AA can't use their own money to "fight off" anything or they won't have any cash to exit bk with. The 2 articles you posted were referring to a memo
143 etops1 : We might get something this week . Not 100% sure but don'tbe shocked .
144 robsaw : I'm sure someone, somewhere, will get something. Not officially though.
145 Post contains links randyh3253 : Per this article it seems the Pilots may actually be liking what Parker is saying... http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerq...s-american-airlines.html?
146 caliboy78 : As much as some here want the merger to happen and some others do not want it or care for it, we all have to seat tight and wait to see what happens.
147 PHX787 : How "official" does something need to be in order to make a logical guess?
148 mogandoCI : I guess hubs at DCA-PHL-JFK plus focus airports at LGA and BOS doesn't count as "northeast concentrated".
149 LDVAviation : It is this part I don't get. Are AA's unions so clueless as to think that Parker can make good on an offer to pay them considerably more than AA will
150 Post contains links kgaiflyer : Well, well. Here's a *different* perspective. http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...lone/673575/1?loc=interstitialskip U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchiso
151 JFKPurser : I think the reason you don't get it is because none of the unions at AMR are actually chasing any golden eggs here. What AA unions are most intereste
152 Byrdluvs747 : A token presence in NRT, PEK, and PVG from up to three hubs is still light years ahead of US' complete inability to even establish a single NRT route
153 HPRamper : US clearly just doesn't care all that much about starting Asia routes and feels the metal would be better used to Europe where they already have a si
154 JFKPurser : Hey delta2ual, what is the status of PMDL FA pensions? It is my understanding that they were neither frozen nor taken over by the PBGC and that they a
155 JFKPurser : And a lot of room for US to maneuver. What's keeping Parker from going directly to TGP? Or IAG? Who's to say he couldn't convince them that he is a be
156 lucky777 : How long has Horton been CEO??? From everything i can gather, Horton, unlike Arpey, is willing to do the heavy lifting with regards to union contract
157 JFKPurser : He has been a member of a management team over the last ten years which has wiped out all value in AA for shareholders, alienated thousand upon thous
158 JFKPurser : Humorous, huh? Not really sure what's so humorous about them. Can you answer any of those questions for me with any accuracy? In an atmosphere of ram
159 LDVAviation : Well, yes, US has room to maneuver, but they are in the position of having to overpay for every vote they get, including the three union votes. Remem
160 JFKPurser : Not all management, but certainly this one. Bethune was not clueless. Or Trippe. Or C.R. Smith. For that matter not even Crandall. They all seemed to
161 lucky777 : Gimme a break....your feigned surprise at AA hiring outside analysts to provide an objective eye to their operations or management structure is commo
162 JFKPurser : I never claimed I was unbiased nor would I ever. What do you have personally invested in this mess that would explain your irrational and ridiculous l
163 LAXdude1023 : But do you honestly believe Doug Parker is going to come in and give the Unions everything they desire or is it just a gamble?
164 AAplat4life : I think this analysis is flat out wrong. If AMR emerges from bankruptcy as it hopes to as a stand-alone entity, the creditors will primarily get stoc
165 AAExecplat : It is most interesting and telling that you continue to resort to ad hominem attacks in this thread by (often in a backhanded fashion) insulting othe
166 JFKPurser : Sir with all due respect, this person to whom I refer, for all intents and purposes, COMMANDED me in a previous post not to speak of Horton and team
167 AAExecplat : I guess I didn't interpret any of the posts you responded to as "commanding" you not to speak of Horton, but be that as it may, I'll leave that topic
168 LDVAviation : I was referring to the rumored attempt by US to takeover AA while it is in bankruptcy. As to the cash required for such a transaction, it was Parker
169 LDVAviation : All companies hire consulting companies to do this kind of work. Human resource departments are not equipped to do this kind of analysis. And, you ar
170 JFKPurser : Finally someone here is willing to say it. Not to deflect or assign blame, I think you are by land large pointing at the pilot group here. As much as
171 JFKPurser : Sir -- let me get this straight. You are defending the insane notion that it is OK that the status quo dictates that -- not only within AMR but also
172 AAExecplat : I get the abysmal track record bit (although I might not be quite as harsh), but (and I mean this sincerely), I don't understand what you refer to wh
173 Post contains links JFKPurser : Please read some of the briefs and press releases on the APFA website at www.apfa.org. This will inform you of the basic manner in which AA has been
174 usairways85 : I know the union contracts and the financial situations at each airline are a huge in the merger but some people seem to forget how different AA and U
175 LDVAviation : It is not an insane notion. It is only an insane notion to you because you don't understand that managers within the company do not have the time, th
176 LDVAviation : You are not the first airline employees to go through this process. Be realistic. It had to happen, just as it had to happen at Delta, UAL, Continent
177 AAExecplat : If the figures have not yet been released, how can you assert that AA management are low-balling anything? Is that what the general rumors are coming
178 AAExecplat : BTW, I can't access anything on the APFA website without a login.
179 ripcordd : This is a problem that just snowballed from 2003 AMR only made AA take paay cuts Eagle did not take any when they should have taken. Managment should
180 Post contains links vin2basketball : And how much of a psychological impact would it have on AA employees if the company went out of business? Two things working against you here. One, a
181 PHXA340 : As a private sector employee I agree as I have seen companies reduce pay and increase hours without approval of the employee as they don't have a uni
182 B757forever : Horton may be an astute business man, but he is not a leader. AA has suffered from a lack of REAL senior leadership since the departure of Bob Cranda
183 ripcordd : Well at least USAIR is going to be their safety net from them being another Eastern
184 LDVAviation : From what I read somewhere, APFA adjusted that number downward by arguing that it was inflated because AA's international fleet has a first class cab
185 LDVAviation : How exactly is AA's situation comparable to Eastern's? Even if the judge throws out the union contracts, they can't strike. It was a strike by Easter
186 SaabFA71 : If a merger goes through and gets approved, I wonder what the new paint scheme would look like. Personally, I'd like to see the new airline keep the U
187 Post contains images B757forever : I never said they loved him (Crandall), I said " outstanding business men AND outstanding leaders, their people respected them" On the other hand, pe
188 Byrdluvs747 : Sorry but that would look incredibly awful. AA doesn't need some b@stardized hybrid livery or a childish one either.
189 etops1 : Keep the AA paint scheme . The US paint scheme is clownish at best . We should have kept the blue top scheme after te AW merger .
190 HPRamper : The AA scheme won't be the same on the Airbus...it'll look clownish itself without the polished aluminum look. I kinda liked the blue too, but with a
191 Post contains links Byrdluvs747 : Oh he is watching. Bob Crandall & Peter Greenberg on the Airline Industry
192 JFKPurser : From an anonymous source within American Airlines: RECEIVED THIS MORNING FROM A JFK PILOT (he also gave me permission to post it) It may not have been
193 AAExecplat : If this is true, then that would be huge news. I am still puzzled that AA unions think that merging with US will solve their problems, but what do I
194 ripcordd : LDA with service disruptions that will snowball to loss of customers so fast....Under Crandall ohh yes people feared him but he was a man of his word
195 Byrdluvs747 : JFKpurser, What about Scope?
196 AAExecplat : And that's the problem...when people make decisions based on emotions and especially hatred an disgust, they often shoot themselves in the foot...
197 LDVAviation : So, you dismissed my claim earlier that AA's unions wanted a raise out of all this? And, here is it. It would be interesting to model Parker's reason
198 LDVAviation : If Parker convinced the pilot's to accept unlimited use of the 190 at JetBlue rates with a permanent two-tier wage scale, then scope (I think) become
199 LAXdude1023 : What the unions dont realize is that they will end up hating Doug Parker every bit as much in a couple of years time. You guys see US as your savior,
200 commavia : Sounds like the unions have it all figured out - or at least they feel they do. Good for them - smart move on their part, and either way, seems like
201 JFKPurser : Word filtering out now that Boeing is on board. 5 out of 9 = majority. Enjoy.
202 PHXA340 : Interesting how this plays out. Essesntially you are sending a huge Boeing customer into an Airbus only competitor. I call BS on this one unless ther
203 JFKPurser : Glad you finally chimed in, commavia. Wondered when that would be. Good points, all.
204 william : I was believing this until I read the post about Boeing on board with this........Really? Doubt it......We will see in time. I can understand AA emplo
205 Post contains links STT757 : Kudos to JFKPurser for the scoop; http://www.thestreet.com/story/11501...king-for-amr-takeover-sources.html
206 LDVAviation : But that article does not confirm that the pilot's group or Boeing are on board.
207 Post contains links STT757 : Something appears to be in motion with the pilots; http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...hestreetcom-reports-us-airway.html
208 Post contains links mogandoCI : ooops ... guess a merger might really be happening : AMR Unions Said Prepared to Back US Airways Takeover Offer http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0..
209 LDVAviation : Someone has to do the math on this. Something doesn't make sense. Wouldn't you like to see the revenue and cost projections that justify higher labor
210 MAH4546 : Unions supporting a takeover bid - which is the interest of their inflated paychecks, not the future of the airline - doesn't mean a "merger might re
211 commavia : Yes - of course. I, like many of us, will be interested to see the numbers underlying the deals Parker cut with AA's unions - not to mention his exis
212 mogandoCI : It's a new development since the conventional wisdom on this forum (even up to last week) was that unions would much prefer AA staying independent. I
213 commavia : I think that is still the preference of AA's union employees, if not the unions themselves, frankly. The unions are a business just like any other -
214 LAXdude1023 : No, that is not him. There is more to this than meets the eye for all who are involved. I would suggest not rushing to judgement.
215 ripcordd : PHXA340 I see it the other way Boeing being able to get an Airbus customer back....This just might be a ploy from AA's unions to get a better deal fro
216 PHXA340 : Thats the problem , US AIR didn't work a contract within 3 weeks, US still has two pilot groups East and West with the East refusing to align themsel
217 ripcordd : phx340 soon they may have 3 east west and midwest
218 AAExecplat : That's easy...because this is the first time that AA unions are willing to make meaningful concessions on the productivity end, and because Parker is
219 PHXA340 : I don't get this. Maybe an AA pilot could shed some light but why would you actually trust a company that doesn't even have one unified Pilot Union ?
220 LAXdude1023 : The answer to that is actually a rather simple one. There is so much hatred and animosity among AA's Unions and work groups toward AA's management th
221 PHXA340 : So this might/probably will turn into a grass isn't always greener on the other side situation ?
222 ripcordd : Its a huge gamble on unions part but AA has never tried in good faith to negoiate a contract which is why Devalle was asked to to leave Horton sees it
223 Creep : I'm knowingly stirring the pot here, but I learned two interesting things at work today. (I work ramp for US in PHX) 1. A union representative today s
224 etops1 : Expect an announcement on 04/20/12.
225 Post contains images crAAzy : Unions supporting a merger with US is going to be very interesting to watch. All done out of spite and to break management ... LOL. Haven't they learn
226 AAplat4life : Bringing in a larger group of pilots will also change the union dynamics at US Air. With AA's larger market share, there will be more pilots that US h
227 ripcordd : craazy I think they have already negotiated with US and which is why they are giving their support to US.....So if Horton hears a hoo and wants to sta
228 Post contains links ripcordd : US Airways in collective bargaining pacts with three AMR unions http://www.theflyonthewall.com/perma...ining-pacts-with-three-AMR-unions-
229 LAXdude1023 : I think this says it all. Horton has no chance with the Unions. What Horton needs to do is focus on the other members of the creditors committee (par
230 PHXA340 : Exactly, unions only represent 3 out of the 9 creditors ... I don't understand why everyone is saying this is a done deal because the unions want it
231 commavia : Parker's letter to USAirways employees is out: he says his plan would keep all the combined hubs and aircraft (standard party line, per usual), and sa
232 Post contains links commavia : And the unions' joint statement: https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1242/articleId/1095/AA-Union
233 crosswinds21 : Ok...this has probably been asked here before, but can someone explain how the pilots' union could have come to a collective bargaining agreement if
234 Post contains links Blueman87 : http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/20...ys-to-take-over-american-airlines/ This Article says there merging
235 incitatus : Did the CEO of USAirways rent a Santa Claus suit yet? The terms described do not add up. Companies have to cover costs and produce profits to investor
236 Blueman87 : I hope he does and if they merge i hope they keep the US Airways name
237 Coronado : the more I think about what has been transpiring is that US will make a strong pitch to buy AA while AA is in Chapter 11 following the current AMR man
238 oflanigan : Still no talk about scope correct?
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