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Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR  
User currently offlinebooforty From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6852 times:

CY launch new daily ATH to LHR from October using A321.

ATH 18:40 - 20:45 LHR 4h05
LHR 22:00 - 03:35 +1 ATH 3h35

Why would CY launch such a route?

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus-airways/new-cy-route/20120410

[Edited 2012-04-10 08:27:54]

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

It looks much like a 'slot-warmer', or at any case, a route to make slightly more money (or: less losses) on their LHR-slot compared to using it from Cyprus.


User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6787 times:

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft. We have to fly them somewhere... (also important that FR has joined U2 in flying year round to London from PFO but they can't really compete against FR so what will they do!)

Except that:
- they're bleeding money and the government (ie the Cypriot taxpayer) is still supporting them directly or indirectly and
- the rationale for support is that they are important for the Cypriot tourism industry except that...
- ahem... flying ATH-SKG and ATH-LHR is NOT supporting the Cypriot tourism industry at all.

So hopefully before too long some smart guy will figure this out and pull the plug on the whole sad affair. THough don't hold your breath. There's elections in early 2013 and no politician will want to be seen to be pulling the plug quite yet. Unless their hand is forced by market forces?

I wonder how long for instance before A3 launch a complaint for unfair competition.

Rant over.


User currently offlinebooforty From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

No, I simply asked the question to see what people's views are!

I have no idea what their logic is...

Stemming losses whilst still retaining their LHR slots seems to make some sense but surely this is a highly competitive route?


User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6632 times:

Quoting booforty (Reply 3):

Stemming losses whilst still retaining their LHR slots seems to make some sense but surely this is a highly competitive route?

Yes, if this were a commercial business. But this is a business in effect sustained by taxpayers' money so no. And if they cannot sustain a route to Cyprus using those slots (and using Cypriot taxpayers' money) then sell the slots to the highest bidder and money goes back to the government coffers. Or worst case? Rent out the slots. Instead they're going head to head with A3, with very strong presence on the route, strong customer loyalty in a market that cannot possibly be growing - not with Greece's current problems. Heck if it were growing A3 wouldn't have used one of its own slot pairs to start the LCA route in the first place !!!

Arghhhhh!!!


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6396 times:

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):

I wonder how long for instance before A3 launch a complaint for unfair competition.

The EU single market agreement permits all EU-based carriers to fly anywhere they want in the EU.


User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

The EU single market agreement permits all EU-based carriers to fly anywhere they want in the EU.

Thanks, yes i'm fully aware of that. Hence A3 can fly LHR-LCA too  

The trouble is that CY is a carrier that lost €20m (IIRC) in 2011. A carrier of this size and operating in a strictly commercial environment would not survive with such losses. If CY is still flying today it's because of the explicit or implicit support of the government. Hence presenting unfair competition to A3 who has no similar benefits.

Anyway, I wish them the best but I'm not hopeful.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

I want what the head of CY is smoking what a waste of A/C and slots. If it works for them then good luck to them. At least a different carrier for me to fly this Winter but purely as a once off to try the product.

User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft. We have to fly them somewhere... (also important that FR has joined U2 in flying year round to London from PFO but they can't really compete against FR so what will they do!)

  

Lol I think you've summed up the airline mentality there  There's no more logic to the decision than you've cited here.



chase the sun
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft.

   Well said!

I think the main problem is that Cyprus Airways is just too big. southern Cyprus (considering that the north residents are flying via Turkey) is just 800,000 (about 20% of the population of Athens alone) and CY is too big airline. Getting rid of those A330 was smart move, but there is more to do.

Another problem is that Cyprus is a summer destination for tourism, not all year long, which is very problematic for the aviation industry.

(PS: on CY TLV-LCA flights the taxi time to the runway is sometimes longer then the flight time itself!)



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

I am just guessing here but there is always a possibility that this move is coordinated with OA acting as a feeder at ATH and code sharing with CY (current code-sharing agreement is on hold and is being re-negotiated at the moment)

There is also the possibility (again guessing) that the entry of CY into the Greek market could be related to a potential future A3/OA merger which was stopped in the past by the EU.

There is also the possibility that none of the above is valid and that CY are once again making moves without logic.

Only time can answer the above questions.



CY@Uk
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4361 times:

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
CY launch new daily ATH to LHR from October using A321.

ATH 18:40 - 20:45 LHR 4h05
LHR 22:00 - 03:35 +1 ATH 3h35

fairly straight forward I would think.

unless they operated such a sector, the aircraft would sit on the ground overnight in ATH.
by operating to LHR, not only do they protect their slots, but offer LCA-LHR v.v. as a one stop.

it also means they can offer a morning departure ATH-LCA , becuase current early flight is 11.30.

business pax ex-ATH could do a one day turnaround to LCA.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

So much competitive pressure for them whichever way they turn.

Might be more wise looking for a merger, or a partnership with A3 to atleast find some operational efficiencies along the way.


User currently offlineGCPET From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2012, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

I can't see this working for CY sadly. With Aegean and British Airways already covering the LHR-ATH-LHR sector I can't see many customers going for CY, especially since Aegean has a nice product on board and BA's is improving with the refurbishments of the 767's. It would make more sense to stay with the LCA-LHR-LCA sector but just change the aircraft to a A320. However it must be said, if BA can send a 767 to LCA and make money then surely CY if they change things round a bit: Lower fares etc!

GCPET



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):
Might be more wise looking for a merger, or a partnership with A3 to atleast find some operational efficiencies along the way.

Although I would like to see CY in *A, I think OA would make more sense as a partner given that their network is focused on the Balkans and does not have a huge overlap with the CY network.

If the code-sharing agreement (which is re-negotiated at the moment) is re-instated, I could see them expanding it further with the addition of the CY flights to LHR but also their ATH-SKG flights.

If the above takes place, there could be also a possibility that the OA ATH-SKG flights are reduced or even exist only as code-share flights with CY hence releasing a/c for OA to expand to other destinations.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 14):
Although I would like to see CY in *A, I think OA would make more sense as a partner given that their network is focused on the Balkans and does not have a huge overlap with the CY network.

If the code-sharing agreement (which is re-negotiated at the moment) is re-instated, I could see them expanding it further with the addition of the CY flights to LHR but also their ATH-SKG flights.

If the above takes place, there could be also a possibility that the OA ATH-SKG flights are reduced or even exist only as code-share flights with CY hence releasing a/c for OA to expand to other destinations.

If I remember correctly, ME was considering bidding on a stake in CY. If this happens, I believe ME would quickly try to get CY into SkyTeam as CY might really benefit being partners with AF KL AZ and SV. However, I am not sure if anything actually came of the rumor...



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 15):
ME was considering bidding on a stake in CY.

Yes, interest was announced two months ago.
I think joining an alliance could help CY, plus some decent management.
ME has since gone quiet- they are due to join Skyteam in June so let's watch this space



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

Relaunch!
I flew Cyprus Airways LHR to ATH on a Trident in 1969.
It seemed silly at the time as nearly all the pax were going to Nicosia, and only 5 got off in Athens.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2662 times:
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Quoting EL-AL (Reply 9):
Another problem is that Cyprus is a summer destination for tourism, not all year long

The Cyprus tourism board (or something similar) had TV commercials on Scandinavian TV a few years ago, calling Cyprus the "year-round island". But if you can't swim in the ocean during winter, many don't consider it a holiday place, even if it is nice and sunny.

Has winter tourism increased somewhat in Cyprus or declined?

Arriving in ATH at 03.35 doesn't sound too attractive, unless shuttle buses and trains run all night.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17051 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Quoting GCPET (Reply 13):
However it must be said, if BA can send a 767 to LCA and make money then surely CY if they change things round a bit: Lower fares etc!

But dont forget that BA has a massive network at the other end, while CY barely offers any connections at LCA.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineCyba From Cape Verde, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Just a couple of things:

BA does make money on LCA but has very low loads in the winter months (as does CY, hence the over-capacity issue). Nov, Jan, Feb flights typically have load factors of 30-50%. But the cargo hold is usually full (not sure what with) and Apr-Oct BA flights are usually completely full.

While there is lots of connecting traffic at LHR there's probably more O&D traffic on this route than any other out of LCA (except Greece).


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):

Buses run 24/7 to the port of Piraeus for the 6-8 am sailings its a good connection. Also 24/7 to Athens city. Also it's possible to connect to many Islands around 6am on the Olympic/Aegean Domestic network.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):
Arriving in ATH at 03.35 doesn't sound too attractive

From LON at the moment:

0205 Aegean from LHR
0230 BA from LHR
0400 Aegean from LHR



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 9):
I think the main problem is that Cyprus Airways is just too big.

The main problem with CY is that is it has a lot of employees who are making double the industry standard.
The other issue is that planes are not utilised as much as they could, with lots of them flying one sector per day.

What could save CY? Nothing really. Its employees, especially its pilots, need to make a decision. Half the income with another owner or no job.


User currently offlineelnino320 From Cyprus, joined Oct 2010, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Before accusing Cyprus Airways pilots you should know some important information.Back in the 2005,the airline management came to an agreement with the pilots for a pay cut of 30% on their salaries,to save the airline,and in return the management would follow a restructuring plan that had 3 steps :First Clean the house,Second get in shape,Third Perform.

These steps where including outsourcing catering,engineering,accounting departments and reducing the number of employees.

None of these ever took place,because of the governments afraid of loosing votes in the elections.So the economic situation became even worse.

In 2011 January the airline management requested a further 9% pay cut from the employees for the next 12 months to help the airline and they promised (again) to make a restructuring plan(never did).

2012 January the 9% was never returned(illegally) to the employees and the airline management says they cannot afford to give it back(but at the same time they give promotions to managers in the offices).

Cyprus Airways First officers earn 2500-3500 per month and the captains 5000-6000,is that amount of money so crazy?for airline pilots?in a country that has a GDP higher than the European average?

Cyprus Airways has 120 pilots for 13 airplanes(11 with the 330s leaving) and the airline has 1200 employees,what the rest 1080 people are doing?


25 panais : Exactly why CY needs to get a new owner. Management is incapable of managing. On the other hand, who is going to buy the company with so many employe
26 elnino320 : First of all Cyprus Airways is not bankrupt,and second if you do a small research you will realize these pilots salaries are below the European avera
27 Post contains images CYatUK : I would put the word "yet" at the end of your sentence above Today I read the news about the Board finalizing the sell of the 2 owned A319s and I won
28 Cyba : Panais (who you're quoting) isn't from Sudan!!
29 Post contains images panais : If you consider Ayios Andreas, Lefkosia Sudan, then I might actually be from Khartoum. These two planes are the only hard assets they have left. Ever
30 elnino320 : Apologies i confused Cyba(sudan) user with Panais. This is the government excuse all these years...first we resize then we sell it,and they never resi
31 Vasu : How much feed does CY get from flying into LHR? Could they feasibly switch flights to LGW to save money?
32 Post contains images Cyba : Never judge a book by its cover. Comment on the content if you like. Change of ownership at CY would be a good step forward. I wonder whether it's to
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