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VS & The A380  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 17149 times:

I was just wondering what the score is with VS and the A380 ?

Have they firm orders/delivery dates etc for the aircraft ?

Just seems that with the 'primo' routes they fly LAX, JFK, HKG, JNB, CPT, DXB etc from the airport that is their base i.e LHR (with all its capacity issues) the aircraft for them is really a no brainer ??

I would of thought they'd have jumped all over the A380 ?

Seems perfect for them.......


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 17118 times:

Still on order and will appear on US routes plus HKG first. They were delayed slightly but first delivery planned for Q4 2013/ early 2014

User currently onlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3588 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 17103 times:

A lower CASM is only helpful if the yield is not too depressed by the extra seats supplied.

I don't know how elastic VS's demand is on their routes.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30437 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 17100 times:
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I am of the opinion they placed the order more for Richard Branson to tweak British Airways' nose than out of a real need for such a plane.

VS will eventually need to replace their 747-400 and A340-600 fleets, but I am of the current opinion that the 777-300ER, 777X and/or A350-1000 will be the bulk - if not totality - of those replacements.

That they ordered six implies they could make the plane work on some leisure routes - say LGW-MIA/FCO during the cruise / summer vacation seasons. But could they make full use of six frames year round and are six frames really enough to justify and leverage the investment?


User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 16997 times:

I think they would fit nicely on the leisure routes out of LGW & MAN. I know VS will use them initially on the LHR routes for "prestige" purposes, but they will no doubt find their way to Gatwick to operate to MCO/LAS etc.


Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 16854 times:

I really hope VS takes delivery of the A380 and comes up with something very innovative in all classes. Many years ago VS was a step above his competitors with regards to his product and services. They need to use the opportunity of the A380 to go back on track.

User currently offlinePhxA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 16753 times:

My money is that they don't take delivery of the A380 at all ... Virgin needs to focus first on reestablishing its customer base and improving its product. Other airlines would happily take Virgin's slots for the aircraft who will be able to fill the 500+ seats with profitable customers rather than to low yield leisure routes.

User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 16729 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
LGW-MIA/FCO

They fly LHR-MIA, and I think an A380 would be overkill on LGW-FCO. BA and EZY use A319/B737 sized a/c on those routes  



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 16604 times:

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 6):
low yield leisure routes

LHR-NYC is low yield leisure. Eh, no.


User currently offlinePhxA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 16534 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 8):
LHR-NYC is low yield leisure. Eh, no.

Nope but it is a high frequency business route ... can you provide me another example besides JFK where VS could send there A380 to profitably ? Besides HKG ?


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5149 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 16476 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
That they ordered six implies they could make the plane work on some leisure routes

Or it implies that they had 6 x LHR 747's at the time of the order so it was a 1 for 1 replacement with the LHR 747 fleet.

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 6):
Virgin needs to focus first on reestablishing its customer base and improving its product.

Which it is spending 100 million pounds doing through out this year.

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 9):
Nope but it is a high frequency business route ... can you provide me another example besides JFK where VS could send there A380 to profitably ? Besides HKG ?

Anywhere they send the 747 currently... LAX/JFK/MIA/JNB/SFO


User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 16428 times:

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 9):

LAX, JNB, MIA are all pretty good to send an A380 too.


User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 16427 times:

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 9):

#
So the two example you are now accepting are not enough for starters ? CPT and LAX are two more and again are not necessarily low yield leisure.


User currently offlinesteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 16426 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
A lower CASM is only helpful if the yield is not too depressed by the extra seats supplied.

I don't know how elastic VS's demand is on their routes.

I would have thought this would be the most relevant issue - how are they going to get enough feed to fill the thing other than by killing yield?



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlinePhxA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 16366 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 12):
So the two example you are now accepting are not enough for starters ? CPT and LAX are two more and again are not necessarily low yield leisure.

VS has no feed at either end, they rely completely on O/D for the most part. VS can send an A380 anywhere but at good enough yields ? The LAX - LHR is a extremely competitive market. As previously mentioned ... is it worth it for VS to have a tiny sub fleet of 6 frames for a few routes .... I dunno.

Quoting anstar (Reply 10):
Anywhere they send the 747 currently... LAX/JFK/MIA/JNB/SFO

From my understanding , a lot of those 747s are configured in very high densities. Can VS fill a 380 on those routes while not killing the yields ?


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1153 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 16020 times:

I've always been highly skeptical of ever seeing an A380 in VS colours, but....

It may or may not be a coincidence that the airframes are timed to arrive at about the same time as the current LHR B744 leases expire (the LGW B744 fleet have all had their leases extended and are being refurbished so they will be around for a while)

I still have my doubts, but you never know. There are some routes that could support an A380 easily.....SFO, JNB, LAX, MIA, possibly JFK. Certainly not CPT however.


Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 14):
VS has no feed at either end, they rely completely on O/D for the most part

This is an often quoted myth. Just because they aren't in a major alliance doesn't mean they are purely O+D. They carry thousands of connecting passengers daily.

The LAX route would be a prime candidate. After a couple of years of mostly A346 service the B744 is back for the summer, and the demand is definitely there. They only have 5 B744 operating from LHR at the moment so 6 A380's would not be an issue - especially given VS's airbus widebody experience.

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 14):
From my understanding , a lot of those 747s are configured in very high densities. Can VS fill a 380 on those routes while not killing the yields ?

The LHR B744's are relatively low density - J44/W62/Y261.

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 4):
I think they would fit nicely on the leisure routes out of LGW & MAN. I know VS will use them initially on the LHR routes for "prestige" purposes, but they will no doubt find their way to Gatwick to operate to MCO/LAS etc.

Possibly LAS. I would be surprised if they went to MCO though. VS could fill 10 of the things for about 12 weeks a year but they would get killed on at least another 10. The remaining medium demand weeks would probably dictate that VS would have to trash the yields to fill them - whereas now the A330's to MCO are cash cows



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinedairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 15992 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 7):
able cu
Quoting gkirk (Reply 7):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
LGW-MIA/FCO

They fly LHR-MIA, and I think an A380 would be overkill on LGW-FCO. BA and EZY use A319/B737 sized a/c on those routes

well, I think he meant MCO, not FCO!?



A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
User currently offlinewilld From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 15889 times:

You all assume that they will be used ex LHR. Everyone said this with the 330 which arrived and was sent to LGW in a new two class configuration that has worked very well.

I would imagine that LGW-MCO will be a prime candidate in a leisure configuration with a large number of Premium Economy and extra legroom Y seats.

I flew into MCO on Wed and saw six VS planes parked up at Airside 4 with three flights alone from MAN.The route has huge demand in the UK school holidays and during the kids term time the route is also in demand from conference groups, golfers and the increasing number of snowbirds. And lets not forget parents in the UK are happy to risk a fine and pull their kids out of school early in order to get a cheaper holiday so the demand is not necessarily as seasonal as some may at first think.

It is also worth remembering that VS has the added bonus of it's sister companies Virgin Holidays, Vorgin Holiday Cruises and Travel City Direct who block buy seats and have kept VS very healthy on their leisure routes.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4824 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 15697 times:

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 9):

The A380 was rumored to operate on the LHR-HKG-SYD route I take it the plans have changed...?

EK413



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User currently offlinevirgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 15530 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 15):
I've always been highly skeptical of ever seeing an A380 in VS colours

Would look fantastic though .....




Hello Beautiful !!!
User currently offlinevirgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 15289 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 15):
They only have 5 B744 operating from LHR at the moment so 6 A380's would not be an issue - especially given VS's airbus widebody experience.

I think the A380 would be a natural replacement for the LHR fleet of 744's.

The leases on the LGW fleet of 744's have just been extended for another 7 years, in keeping with the full upgrade & re-fitt of the LGW aircraft.

I think the only acceptable use of the A380 @ LGW would be on rotation at high yield times for the MCO route.

Quoting anstar (Reply 10):
Anywhere they send the 747 currently... LAX/JFK/MIA/JNB/SFO

Exactly ... we would hope that VS would have a totally upgraded cabin & product desgin for the launch of the A380, so capacity wise I don't think there would be much differance between the 744's and the A380 in seating capacity. We would hope they would launch a similar product to Emirates & Singapore.



Hello Beautiful !!!
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1153 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 14964 times:

Quoting willd (Reply 17):
I flew into MCO on Wed and saw six VS planes parked up at Airside 4 with three flights alone from MAN.The route has huge demand in the UK school holidays and during the kids term time the route is also in demand from conference groups, golfers and the increasing number of snowbirds. And lets not forget parents in the UK are happy to risk a fine and pull their kids out of school early in order to get a cheaper holiday so the demand is not necessarily as seasonal as some may at first think.
Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 15):
I would be surprised if they went to MCO though. VS could fill 10 of the things for about 12 weeks a year but they would get killed on at least another 10. The remaining medium demand weeks would probably dictate that VS would have to trash the yields to fill them - whereas now the A330's to MCO are cash cows

Its fine for those 10 (maybe 12 or 14) weeks per year when the whole world wants to go to MCO. Sure there are parents willing to pull kids from school and there is definitely a demand from other demographics, but not enough to fill a couple of A380s a day. Just look at the schedules in September, May, Jan, Feb etc. On many days VS will cancel one of the services. The demand just isn't there.

BTW 3 x daily to MAN has never been in the schedule. Its a daily A333 and a 4 x weekly B744. Maybe a one-off delayed flight (?) but the most you will ever see in MCO is 2 x A333 and 3 x B744. Even then you would have to be lucky as the first couple (VS28, VS76) should be leaving as the last (VS73) arrives



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 771 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 14150 times:

Quoting PhxA340 (Reply 6):
My money is that they don't take delivery of the A380 at all ... Virgin needs to focus first on reestablishing its customer base and improving its product.

Wouldn't that mean upgrading their product to an A380? Customers like them.


User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 14122 times:

I will add that I have travelled both MAN-MCO & LGW-MCO with VS a number of times, at varying times of the year. Both in and out of the typical school holiday times.

I've never seen a bad load on any flight at any time of the year.

Compare that with the LHR-BOS flight I took with VS back in Feb '07, and there were 151 pax outbound and 87 inbound. Felt quite roomy, and for £30rtn (website glitch but they honoured it) I couldn't complain  



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24734 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 13243 times:

Don't hold your breath for LAX. I have yet to see VS participate in any of the airport A380 meetings.

Also the VS LAX terminal (T-2) currently does not have any A380 capable gates.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Well, for what it's worth; Virgin is preparing for the A380. They have been ordering stuff from a small aerospace company here in The Netherlands for
26 1stfl94 : Interesting that VS website says that they will get their first A380 in 2015. I'm still not 100% sure they will take it the aircraft, especially you
27 B747forever : But that doesn't stop AF from sending their A380 to LAX.
28 LAXintl : AF is going to TBIT.
29 anstar : And what is to stop Virgin going to TBIT too?
30 B747forever : Yeah, I know that. That is my point, why shouldnt VS be able to go to TBIT?
31 LAXintl : In theory only $$$$. But my point is VS has expressed zero interest in bringing the A380 to LAX in recent times or participated in any of the regular
32 strfyr51 : LAX has the remote parking stands. and they CAN bring them to an INternational Gate But they can only load VIA the Horizontal gates they cannot load
33 Post contains images LAXintl : LAX already has split level gates for the A380 at the international terminal. photo from johnnyjet.com
34 brilondon : That was when SRB was running the show. Now they have realized that there is not the market for the type of service that htey provide, and personally
35 B747forever : How much more would it cost VS to operate out of TBIT instead of T2? Please, we dont need your Airbus bashing here too. It is more than enough in the
36 LAXintl : TBIT the international terminal has 2 A380 compatible gates, while there are 6 remote stands with jetways that are also A380 capable also. Rent new o
37 mham001 : Huh? If that's bashing, we have big troubles.
38 btblue : LAX I would imagine is doable as is HKG and SYD JFK for sure - I mean, every time I have flown in or out of there premium or economy it is usually ful
39 AAMDanny : When they built there Cabin Crew training facility they made the 'rig' big enough to fit the A380 slide mock up, so they are taking the idea of having
40 anstar : there is obviously a market for their services or else no one would fly them!
41 skipness1E : Hmm yes they're downsizing from the A346 to the A333 but wait, here comes the A380? They are taking capacity downwards by replacing about eight aircr
42 gingersnap : Perhaps, but they won't be able to get much of a Europe expansion going. The competition is heavy at least to the mainland, and getting hold of extra
43 skipness1E : Had they put in a serious offer and put some funding together they might now be the ownner of BMI and we could be looking at a new era,
44 Post contains images gingersnap : As much as I would have loved for that to happen, I just don't think VS would have been any good for BD. I'm sure they'd have possibly gone with a VX
45 jfk777 : Any airline having many flights at congested LHR flying long haul will need the ggest planes available. While not evey route Virgin flies out of LHR
46 skipness1E : They really, really don't. Look more closely and have a think. JFK needs to maintain current frequency of at least three daily to have any hope of co
47 sevenheavy : Although the A333 is replacing some A346 flying, when you look at the flying programme as a whole there is more to consider; Also, bear in mind that
48 anstar : VS7 also ops as a 747 during summer so its 1 x 744 and 1 x 346 service. BOS/IAD both go to 343 during the winter and revert to 346 for summer. And yo
49 qf002 : +1. Even in a premium heavy configuration, that's a lot of Y seats to fill, and we've never seen a scheduled 744 down here...
50 skipness1E : CX did no such thing, LHR-HKG remains at four daily.
51 Richard28 : the second frequency was dropped because the slot timings were unattractive to pax, especially high yield/J Class, and VS switched the LHR slots to a
52 anstar : They went to 3 flights a day around SEP09 for a while.
53 mdavies06 : Seems like no one has mentioned DXB and NRT yet. Perhaps there is a chance that DXB will get one? NRT may also be a candidate as Tokyo in general is a
54 skipness1E : If they did, it wasn't for long. The 2009 winter schedule a mere eight weeks later had them back at four daily at which it remains. Either way, LHR-H
55 babybus : By having those A380s as quickly as possible is how it will re-establish a solid customer base and improve its product. At the moment those high dens
56 sevenheavy : The SYD-HKG tag performs well. There's no reason to drop it. Anyway, the A333 doesnt have the range for LHR-HKG. this is actually a route where the A
57 qf002 : In the A333/A346 scenario, it makes sense to keep SYD-HKG. But in a single daily A388 scenario, it would be a dead tag IMO. Also, the HGW A333's VS i
58 sevenheavy : Where? I'm not doubting you, but I don't personally know of any. A332 maybe but not A333.
59 mikey72 : Looking at that I'm surprised they are ordering any A380's. Guess I was wrong to assume.
60 qf002 : DME-LAX is 5319nm (scheduled as an A332, but the A333 is subbed), ZRH-HKT was 5039nm, SYD-BOM was 5482nm and there are 4-5 in the 4,800ish range. The
61 sevenheavy : SVO-LAX takes a huge payload penalty on the rare occasion it is operated by an A333. Not sure about the others - I couldn't find any more details. I'
62 skipness1E : You know this for a fact that with the VS business case and capacity vs lease costs the A380 is a better option for the routes I listed above? Or are
63 anstar : You wont see the A330 used on routes that require 3 flight deck members as they aircraft has no crew rest facilities.
64 Post contains images qf002 : Having thought about it, I've realised it was a bit of a silly suggestion in the first place I suppose it could still happen, but I agree it's unlike
65 sevenheavy : Exactly. Who says the B744 are more expensive to operate then an A388?. The lease costs on the LGW B744s are extremely competitive. Equally, the leas
66 skipness1E : Ahh but you see, look at what BA are doing. The A346 is away from base a long time on LHR-HKG-SYD whereas a LHR-HKG-LHR in the same timeframe allows
67 anstar : VS would also need to fins slots at LHR to start an addiotnal service which would have their own costs. Don't forget that VS have a crew base in Hong
68 skipness1E : Good point, Virgin have shown no interest in expanding their LHR slots so I agree the clearly A380 is needed if they need to grow at all. Incidentall
69 sevenheavy : I understand that, but the question originated from the viability of the HKG-SYD route in the context of the LON-AUS market, not when compared to oth
70 sevenheavy : I'm not suggesting that VS are getting A380s, but the stands issue doesn't stack up. VS would, in all likelihood be using the gates around the middle
71 Post contains images qf002 : Or maybe QF will be moving to T5
72 PHXA340 : Agreed , but it would seem customers like lower fares more.
73 skipness1E : Really? Which two? I was through on Saturday and didn't see any significant WIP.
74 sevenheavy : 342 is one. It has already been realigned. I don't recall the other one offhand, possibly 336.
75 panman : I can guarantee you that 342 is being made a380 compatible as we speak. It is currently fenced off while work is in progress. Currently the QF10 is at
76 skipness1E : No but Singapore is headed to Terminal 2 which should leave one gate free on the pier, but not for a while yet. If Malaysia move across to T3 as Onewo
77 panman : True as it would go from 1 Singaporean, 2 Qantas' and 2 Emirates', leaving within 1 hour and 50 minutes of each other, to 1 Malaysian, 2 Qantas' and 2
78 mikey72 : I'd love to get my hands on VS. The first thing I'd do is go knocking on Willie Walsh's door waving a white flag asking if there was a mutually benefi
79 sevenheavy : Thats all lovely, but relevance to VS and the A380?
80 Post contains images virgincrew : Got ya there Mikey lol
81 N14AZ : If Q4 2013/ early 2014 is correct than production of the fuselage parts will start in some months, which would end to the discussion if they will act
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