knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2555 posts, RR: 31 Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6648 times:
A number of posts in various threads have made passing comments about United's biggest markets, either UA-specific or in larger discussions of places like Denver and Chicago. So I did some playing with numbers and will post them below.
These are August 2011, UA+CO, domestic + international. Note that these stats are full-month actual operations divided by 31. So that means weekend schedule reductions and cancelations are factored into the average, and daily flights do not represent weekend peak.
total daily flights
610 iah
607 ord
440 den
439 ewr
295 sfo
287 iad
262 lax
127 cle
total daily passengers
46,274 ord
45,982 ewr
44,680 iah
34,027 den
27,929 sfo
22,770 lax
21,660 iad
7,704 cle
pax per departure
104.7 ewr
94.6 sfo
86.9 lax
77.3 den
76.2 ord
75.6 iad
73.3 iah
60.4 cle
international flights per day
88 ewr
74 iah
35 iad
30 ord
28 sfo
22 den
13 lax
6 cle
international passengers per day
11435 ewr
5002 iah
4618 iad
4617 sfo
4444 ord
1906 lax
1190 den
213 cle
domesitc flights per day
577 ord
536 iah
419 den
351 ewr
268 sfo
251 iad
249 lax
121 cle
domestic passengers per day
41829 ord
39678 iah
34546 ewr
32837 den
23312 sfo
20864 lax
17042 iad
7492 cle
breakdown between mainline, large regional (51-99) and smaller regional (50 or less) aircraft
based on passengers served
100+........51-99.....50 or less
82.5% ….. 07.3% ….. 10.3% ….. ewr
80.2% ….. 08.9% ….. 10.9% ….. sfo
72.9% ….. 14.7% ….. 12.4% ….. lax
67.2% ….. 07.9% ….. 24.9% ….. iah
62.8% ….. 18.4% ….. 18.7% ….. iad
62.4% ….. 16.1% ….. 21.4% ….. den
61.8% ….. 17.7% ….. 20.6% ….. ord
54.6% ….. 09.5% ….. 35.9% ….. cle
based on flights operated
100+........51-99.....50 or less
58.1% ….. 14.4% ….. 27.5% ….. ewr
49.2% ….. 14.5% ….. 36.2% ….. sfo
41.1% ….. 22.0% ….. 36.9% ….. lax
37.9% ….. 11.8% ….. 50.3% ….. iah
35.8% ….. 22.8% ….. 41.4% ….. den
35.1% ….. 24.3% ….. 40.7% ….. ord
33.4% ….. 25.5% ….. 41.1% ….. iad
26.6% ….. 10.3% ….. 63.1% ….. cle
I'm rather surprised to see ORD sneak ahead of IAH in some regards. Perhaps it's because a lot of Chicago's RJ flying has been upgraded to 51-99 seat category, while IAH still has an overwhelming diet of 50-seat in the regional fold.
TOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6172 posts, RR: 9 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6442 times:
EWR takes number one in pax per plane, international flights, and international passengers per day. Wow.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
ORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 292 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6190 times:
But IAH is the largest hub...... (sarcasm)
As with everything it is all about the SPIN a person puts on it.
this is great information and really tells a good story. Nice work
gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6160 times:
What this does reinforce for me is that IAH is far from the most productive hub.
kngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 354 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6088 times:
It obviously depends on what determine 'biggest' to mean. Most Flights? IAH. Most Passengers? ORD. I personally see passengers as a better determinant of 'biggest', so in that case ORD is the biggest in my eyes.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6018 times:
Where are these numbers from? Not saying this information is incorrect but UA today has significantly more flights in many of the markets than these numbers indicate. Also, those passenger statistics are considerably different than those that I have. From my info, IAH is the largest by daily flights, seats, and passengers carried by a significant margin.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18852 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5949 times:
Interesting analysis. What surprises me the most is how close together a lot of the numbers for SFO, LAX and IAD are. What wasn't surprising was that LAX is a clear outlier in those numbers for int'l pax and flights, as UA has drawn down LAX int'l flying significantly over the years.
Atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8): Where are these numbers from? Not saying this information is incorrect but UA today has significantly more flights in many of the markets than these numbers indicate. Also, those passenger statistics are considerably different than those that I have. From my info, IAH is the largest by daily flights, seats, and passengers carried by a significant margin.
The date is August 2011...so of course the numbers you have TODAY will be different from what is posted online there.
Very interesting to see there!
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5769 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10): The date is August 2011...so of course the numbers you have TODAY will be different from what is posted online there.
I know that, I was asking about the source of the data. From the stats I had for 2009/2010, IAH had nearly 70,000 daily seats by CO, ORD had similar numbers for UA; I find it hard to believe that number has fallen to less than 50,000, putting it in the same leagues as hubs like MSP, DTW, and ORD for AA. Also, for just today IAH has around 650 UA/UA Express flights, and it's April. August is peak flying season so that number of 610 daily flights also seems quite low. Where was this data obtained from because I don't believe it's correct.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1991 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5570 times:
CLE also seems a little low at 127 daily flights...I always thought that number was around 200? if thats the case they have really fallen off a cliff there....
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7992 posts, RR: 27 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5417 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):
CLE also seems a little low at 127 daily flights...I always thought that number was around 200? if thats the case they have really fallen off a cliff there....
The busiest days of the week are up around 200, but Saturdays, for example, are far less. Still 127 does seem low.
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 1): Not surprisingly CLE is way at the bottom.
What's your point? It's the smallest hub, of course it is. Why is that even worth saying unless you're just trying to crap on CLE again?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22053 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5383 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9): Interesting analysis. What surprises me the most is how close together a lot of the numbers for SFO, LAX and IAD are.
Keep in mind, each one is very different, and not really full hubs.
IAD essentially is only a 1/2 hub with hub activity during the afternoon/evening. Rather quiet rest of the day.
SFO is essentially a hub during the noon Asia rush, and large spoke/focus city rest of the day.
LAX is simply a huge spoke/focus city. Yes you can connect to Hawaii and intra-CA, but much of the flying is designed to support local demand, not connectivity.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
MasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 4725 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5139 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 13): [CLE's] busiest days of the week are up around 200, but Saturdays, for example, are far less. Still 127 does seem low.
127 seems low enough to question accuracy of the numbers. enilria gave 170 departures as the average daily number for 2012. I'd guess 2011 should be very close to that.
That can't be right, even with day-of-week cancellations. CLE must keep an average of 170 UA/UAX departures per day in order to avoid contractual penalties with the City of Cleveland. Are you sure those numbers include former CO Connection operations (C5/3M)? That's the only explanation I can think of for the discrepancy.
yeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 790 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4852 times:
Nicely done, Knope. Saving this one for a reference
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 1): I am surprised pax per departure for ORD was not higher.
With 65% of departures at ORD in aircraft carrying 99 or less passengers? I'm not... and you can experience it in taxing around O'Hare any day: lots of activity and many, many RJ's.
knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2555 posts, RR: 31 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4354 times:
The data comes from the T100's, information directly reported by the airlines to the DoT.
Feel free to proof the data if you'd like. Be sure to use both the domestic segement and international segment tables, and pull August 2011. I used numbers for flights departing those cities (ORD, SFO, CLE, IAH, etc). If anything numbers might be a tad high because I didn't spend a ton of time trying to weed out things like if Skywest operated ORD-CVG for both UA* and DL*, the numbers are combined.
As I originally said, day of week reductions and flight cancelations bring the average down. CO* does tons of that in particular. When we hear of someone offering X flights per day, that's typcially weekday peak, not an average.
Here's the detail info on number of flights opreated from Cleveland for the entire month of August on UA/UA*/CO/CO*. Before anyone jumps in and says UA/CO did not fly CLE-DTW in August 2011 (for example) you must recognize that things like charters, repo flights, and diversions show up in these stats. So if a CO* EWR-DTW diverted to CLE because of T-storms, and then later flew onward from CLE to DTW, that shows up in the T100 stats alongside all the scheudled flights.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22053 posts, RR: 51 Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3900 times:
Quoting Coairman (Reply 21): LAX has around 220 flights a day, NOT 260. I know this accurate as I have direct sources at UA LAX which I am not at liberty to discuss.
For starters remember the OPer data is for August 2011 - a peak summer period.
But if you want current info, the LAX total is 209 departures for Monday April 16th. Nothing secret about that.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Did you not read his post? He specifically stated that his numbers were from August of 2011. You provided flights scheduled for tomorrow so I don't think the comparison is there considering the number of changes in scheduling that has taken place.
I'm not stating that his numbers are indeed correct or incorrect, but at least he provided his method and data to support his findings. Simply stating that you know someone on the inside with no proof to support the claim doesn't really prove that he is incorrect.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
Did you not read his post? He specifically stated that his numbers were from August of 2011. You provided flights scheduled for tomorrow so I don't think the comparison is there considering the number of changes in scheduling that has taken place.
I'm not stating that his numbers are indeed correct or incorrect, but at least he provided his method and data to support his findings. Simply stating that you know someone on the inside with no proof to support the claim doesn't really prove that he is incorrect.
I am sorry I am not getting my point across. I know that CLE had more than 120 flights a day last August. Thats all. I also was making a point that his last August stats didn't reflect Comutair flights, which I gave examples of how he is missing markets like CLE-SYR/ERI/SBN that were operating last August and are operating tomorrow morning.
[Edited 2012-04-16 00:03:04]
[Edited 2012-04-16 00:04:36]
CLE has remainded very stagnant departure wise in the 170's range since the massive downsizing in 2008.
[Edited 2012-04-16 00:07:56]
[Edited 2012-04-16 00:08:37]
Patience Can Be A Virtue.
25 ADent: Maybe you can compare to the data in this thread: UA Summer 2011 Hub/Focus City Departure Breakdown (by FSDan Apr 17 2011 in Civil Aviation) which is
26 thorntot: For August 2011, the original data set IS missing one RJ round-trip on Chautauqua and three Dash-8-200 Commutair round-trips between CLE and CMH. Agai
27 knope2001: You're correct -- looks like there's trouble with both CommutAir and Chautauqua numbers in the query I ran. I'm on vacation playing with this stuff a
28 thorntot: If looking up by carrier, in August 2011, CLE had ops by Gulfstream, Colgan, CommutAir, Shuttle America, Chautauqua, TransStates, ExpressJet, SkyWest.
29 knope2001: There's no way to tell from the T100's -- hence I mentioned earlier that there can be issues of overcount in places where a regional serves multiple
30 knope2001: There don't appear to be any Shuttle America flights at CLE in August 2011. You're talking capacity, while these numbers are passengers. If you scale
31 TOMMY767: I don't even know why we're comparing August 2011 when the two carriers were still operating seperately. We should have one for Summer 2012 as the cro
32 chopchop767: Firstly, great work crunching the numbers Knope! With UA's hubs in EWR, IAD, CLE, ORD, IAH, DEN, LAX, SFO, GUM and more or less, NRT; I don't think th
33 STT757: EWR also has; Colgan (Q400s) Commutair (DH8-200s, Q300s)
34 hohd: This data can provide fuel for Southwest to start international operations in HOU. UA has been constantly bombarding Houston area stating that it is t
35 SESGDL: These figures are more accurate and are similar to the numbers I had from that same period. In the thread from last summer, IAH was the largest hub b
36 2travel2know2: Where does UA fly international non-stop daily from CLE?
37 STT757: Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec City (seasonal), Cancun and another sunny Mexico/Caribbean destination?
38 rdh3e: I'm not going to provide you with the actual numbers, but I will state that the ordering of the number of departures and daily passengers is not actu
39 captainstefan: Biggest now means total acreage occupied by the airport
40 delta2ual: One thing to remember about the high % of RJ flights: those flights tend to be shorter than mainline so there will be more of them. Still, it's always
41 Caspian27: Well DEN is the largest UA hub then!
42 MasseyBrown: You point out what I consider a fault in the DoT/BTS numbers. There should be brand segregation, in addition to operator segregation in the numbers.
47 gigneil: Quite the vacation. GO OUTSIDE. Right. NS
48 IAHworldflyer: [quote=knope2001,reply=0]international flights per day 88 ewr 74 iah 35 iad 30 ord 28 sfo international passengers per day 11435 ewr 5002 iah 4618 iad
49 rdh3e: Don't believe everything you read. Given that we've already talked about the flaws in the DOT reporting I can tell you the actuals vary significantly
50 United1: ...but most of UAs IAH-Mexico flights are either RJs or 737 service. EWRs international operations are primarily 752s and up in size with 737 flights
51 rdh3e: You're correct. But not 50% more. You may be correct, but it's clearly not that easy as we've seen the discrepancies with the already provided number
52 knope2001: Thanks...looking back at the EWR numbers I did have Colgan included, but not Commuteair. I'll re-run numbers and re-do the eight city comparisions (l
53 knope2001: It is frustrating that only operating carrier shows, and while in some cases good detictive work can help you figure out what's what, sometimes it's
54 knope2001: Here are Houston's flights, international first and then domestic. As with CLE earlier, please look to see if anything seems clealry missing or short.
55 knope2001: I posted the IAH international numbers in the previous thread, and that totals 74.0 per day. Here are the EWR international numbers, and they total 8
56 United1: Thanks for pulling all of the data...its interesting to see how the different hubs each have their own strengths. I have no idea of which airlines we
57 knope2001: Thanks for the tip, but no Transtates or Chautauqua listed for IAH in August 2011. Here are the domesitc airlines with passengers August 2011 Airline
58 rdh3e: Looks like you pretty much nailed it with EWR. I only see a discrepancy of 11 departures on the month total, so that's close enough to call a wash.
59 knope2001: Thanks for the confirmation -- I appreciate it.
60 Coairman: Not that it matters much, but last year CLE had a few daily TransStates flights to places like STL that departed from the D Concourse piers.
61 knope2001: Yup, but it started in September...nonstops to STL, BOS, DAY, PWM and MHT, the final two less than daily.
62 ScottB: So, there seem to be several big international flights which are missing: AMS, CDG, FRA, LHR, along with BZE, BOG, YYC, CUN, CCS, CZM, YEG, GCM, LIM,
63 ADent: I have flown UAX Mesa to Denver. It was before 2011 though.
64 knope2001: Thanks for seeing that -- clearly those are missing. I'll take a look and figure out what's up.
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