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Potential Long Haul From Phoenix  
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7242 times:

I am wondering if any of you could shed some light on why the only long haul service PHX currently supports is a daily BA flight to LHR. I searched the database and could only find things from 2005 when LH pulled out. PHX is the 12th largest metro area by population in the United States with about 4.2 million people in 2010. From all accounts, the BA flight does good going out with full flights and decent yeilds.

I know PHX is at a disadvantage due to its proximity with LAX but for such a large city and with a median income of $41,207 , the potential seems to be there for at least 787/330 service to Asia and or Europe. You would think with all the feed US can provide LH , it would support a flight to Frankfurt ? I apologize if this has been talked about already ....

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7225 times:

US Airways has talked about that once the A350s show a link to Europe, or Asia could be possible.

However look at it this way. What does Phoenix provide? Its neither a global tourist spot, nor a large center for commerce either. Even larger US metro's, draw quite limited foreign air-service for their population sizes.

Even a US long-haul service wont be supported on the back of Phoenix demand solely, but reliant on utilizing the PHX hub for feed across the Southwest region.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7212 times:

A lot of it is due to US being a Star carrier and it being thus more convenient for the European carriers to simply fly to PHL or CLT where pax can connect nearly everywhere in the network.

Then you also have the heat issues at PHX which make heavy ops difficult especially in summer.

As for the 787...well, it's still very early and the jury is still out. I would expect many more markets to see the 787 than have already been announced. PHX certainly may see it in the future.


User currently offlineIAHworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7159 times:

Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route. What are the main businesses and industries in the PHX area? Is much of their customer base located overseas, or are most of their trips domestic?
From what little I know about the Phoenix region, it seems to be a regional financial center and to have some high tech/semiconductor manfacturing in the south Valley. Would people from these offices need to travel to Japan, or do they need to go to SJC? Do the bankers need to go to JFK, or do they need to go to ZRH? I'm not flaming PHX, I just don't know of a big international business community there. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.


User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 7115 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
I just don't know of a big international business community there

Honeywell - 12,000 + employees
Intel - 10,000 + employees
Freeport Copper - 8,000 + employees

PHX also draws from the Tucson market where Raytheon employees 1,000s as well. So you are right not a huge international market but I know Intel consistently flies their employees globally and they are the 5th largest employer in AZ.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6969 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
What does Phoenix provide? Its neither a global tourist spot, nor a large center for commerce either. Even larger US metro's, draw quite limited foreign air-service for their population sizes.

Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the country. What other "larger US Metro" has "quite limited foreign air-service?"


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6948 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 5):
Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the country. What other "larger US Metro" has "quite limited foreign air-service?"

It's not the 6th largest metro though. It's somewhere between 11 and 13. Which to be fair is still plenty big. But I agree with the point that for its size, it definitely has very little international service. Less than many metros that are much smaller.


User currently offlineIAHworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6941 times:

Honeywell, Intel, and Raytheon all have large manufacturing bases in Arizona, but the headquarters, and C-suite folks are in Morristown, Santa Clara, and Boston, respectively. Freeport is the only one based in Phoenix, and yes they have global operations, though many of these are in third world areas not readily served by non-stop flights from the US, such as Indonesia and the Congo. Micropchip Technology is HQ'ed in Chandler, but with only 6000 employees, I don't know how many need to fly to South Korea or Japan on a daily basis in J class.
As for feed to Asia, if US wanted to connect people through PHX, it could be done. Maybe service to NRT, and PEK or ICH. But for someone flying from say MCI or ABQ to Asia, it would be just a quick and to connect in LAX or SFO, plus those cities have many more Trans-Pac options. Perhaps PHX suffers from the Philadelphia syndrome in that it is just too close to a major international airport to offer a wide variety of international service.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

Well there is a very big employer in PHX....Tempe actually... that we are all forgetting....but alas doubt any of those folks pay for their air tickets.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6826 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 7):
Honeywell, Intel, and Raytheon all have large manufacturing bases in Arizona, but the headquarters, and C-suite folks are in Morristown, Santa Clara, and Boston, respectively.

I am thinking a Y heavy aircraft would make sense , similar to what Virgin does out of LGW. Decent yeilds can be made. There is also a very affluent customer base in parts of PHX that could probably fill up the remaning J seats. I am not sure a fully loaded A330 or 787 could make it out of Phx in the summer thought when temps are pushing 48 C


User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 408 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6727 times:

PHX is in a TERRIBLE geographic location for flights to Europe and Asia. There are basically no flow opportunities beyond the hub for these long-haul destinations. As such, any route to Europe or Asia would have to rely more on local traffic than most hubs.

Also, PHX isn't a big O&D center for international traffic, especially international business traffic. There are few large, foreign expat communities from Europe/Asia to support a constant flow of year-round traffic. So all that being said, even though PHX is a large city, the air travel market to Europe and Asia is considerably smaller than other similarly sized US cities. The PHX long-haul market size is more comparable to STL, IND and RDU than cities like IAH, SFO and BOS



We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6529 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 10):
PHX is in a TERRIBLE geographic location for flights to Europe and Asia. There are basically no flow opportunities beyond the hub for these long-haul destinations

PHX can catch the southern Utah , South Arizona, and NM population. I am not saying PHX will support a ton of high frequency international widebodies , but it would seem that PHX would support more than a daily BA flight to London.


User currently offlinerunzel From Australia, joined Dec 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

There's about eleventy-eleven reasons given here why international flights cannot be filled out of PHX.

Where does BA get their pax?


User currently onlineBeardown91737 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

Quoting runzel (Reply 12):
Where does BA get their pax?

the same place they get their NY and LA PAX... England.



135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5970 times:

Quoting PHXA340 (Thread starter):
I am wondering if any of you could shed some light on why the only long haul service PHX currently supports is a daily BA flight to LHR.

I have flown the BA PHX-LHR flight at least 30 times so far. BA does well on the PHX flight due to lots of British business traffic between Arizona and the UK. On the tourist side of things the big draw for PHX is the Grand Canyon, Scottsdale, great winter weather, golf.

Back when America West and BA were partners, I use to see plenty of british tourists connecting onto HP metal bound for FLG.

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
I just don't know of a big international business community there.
British firms with a presence in Arizona:

HSBC Group
British Petroleum
BAE Systems
Rio Tinto
Tesco
Caparo Group



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5921 times:

In my experience the BA flights were always full, albeit I always travel in economy which, as many have stated before me, doesn't pay the big bucks. However don't forget that just a few years ago the PHX-LHR flight was stopped for a while; that tells me that there isn't an enormous market.


Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5719 times:

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
that tells me that there isn't an enormous market.

Agreed but then the flight was upgraded from the 77E to the 744.


User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route. What are the main businesses and industries in the PHX area? Is much of their customer base located overseas, or are most of their trips domestic?
From what little I know about the Phoenix region, it seems to be a regional financial center and to have some high tech/semiconductor manfacturing in the south Valley. Would people from these offices need to travel to Japan, or do they need to go to SJC? Do the bankers need to go to JFK, or do they need to go to ZRH? I'm not flaming PHX, I just don't know of a big international business community there. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

Exactly. The problem with PHX is not the number of passengers, but the low yield.


User currently offlinegeorgiaame From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 958 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route

I'm not an accountant, nor an expert in any of this. However, if that statement were true, that steerage rarely provides sufficient revenue, why has Singapore discontinued all business class on it's 345 non stops into LAX and JFK (or EWR, I can't remember which), as has KLM on its all business class flights into Houston? 3 very profitable routes one would think. I don't question that J brings in a boatload of cash when it flies full, but it is foolish to underestimate the revenue generated on low(er) cost fares.



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 18):
I'm not an accountant, nor an expert in any of this. However, if that statement were true, that steerage rarely provides sufficient revenue, why has Singapore discontinued all business class on it's 345 non stops into LAX and JFK (or EWR, I can't remember which), as has KLM on its all business class flights into Houston? 3 very profitable routes one would think. I don't question that J brings in a boatload of cash when it flies full, but it is foolish to underestimate the revenue generated on low(er) cost fares.

No one is saying that the economy cabin is not important. It must have a certain load factor to pay the expenses of the flight, and frequently (but not always) generates a profit. However, it's the premium cabins that really drive the profitability factor on international flights.


User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers.

Agreed. But BA is charging a nice premium of about 300-400 dollars more for its PHX flights than back tracking to LAX and still they are filling their cabin. I am thinking LH could at least fill a 343 in PHX and make a mild profit.


User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 20):
I am thinking LH could at least fill a 343 in PHX and make a mild profit.

LH disagrees. They tried and failed back in 2003.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5399 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 21):
LH disagrees. They tried and failed back in 2003

True this route was a victim of the post 9-11 fallout, some say BA were looking at pulling out but they have been flying this route for a while and upgraded the aircraft , fyi ... nothing better than seeing a 744 land in the desert sunset !


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8284 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5289 times:
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One reason PHX does NOT have Long haul is USairways and their split east/west pilot seniority list issues. IF US had one pilot list then two A330 would take off for FRA and London every day. Then maybe another one for Tokyo too.

User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
A330 would take off for FRA and London every day

Could a fully loaded A332 take off from PHX in the summertime to FRA, LHR , or NRT without taking a payload restriction ?


25 PGNCS : Please explain this.
26 IAHWorldFlyer : KLM's all J class service from AMS to IAH by Privatair was discontinued because UA was able to get the Shell contract away from KLM. Without a certai
27 Tdan : Crew issues would not prevent these routes from operating. They would be crewed as a 'W' pattern out of PHL and overnighting twice in Europe and once
28 SSTeve : That would be bizarre. LAX is effectively closer than PHX to the St. George "Dixie" area where most of the Southern Utah population is. And that mean
29 EricR : Yet BA charges AND receives a significant premium to its flights when compared to other flight options. Check out prices on BA versus other options a
30 jfk777 : The pilots at USairways still have two seniority lists, the old America West which was based in Phoenix and the old USair based on the east coast. Th
31 drerx7 : Well as mentioned the metro area is further down the list...but to indulge the question - San Antonio...
32 RWA380 : American Express, after 9/11 disaster took down the Amex building next to the trade center towers, Phoenix became the financial HQ for Amex.
33 hz747300 : I still think it is yields. Yes, there are lots of businesses in Phoenix, and Arizona, that have international presence, but I do not believe there i
34 Byrdluvs747 : As was mentioned earlier, the seniority lists do not prevent US from flying intl routes. Exactly. The hispanic population here in PHX translates into
35 JOYA380B747 : PHX and its suburbs like Scottsdale have a pretty decent Asian esp Indian community, who have to connect from NYC, DEN, LAX, SFO etc to arrive there.
36 Post contains images HPRamper : Phoenix is far bigger than San Antonio both in city and metro populations. Does SAT have more international presence than PHX?
37 Byrdluvs747 : The asian/indian population in PHX isn't large enough to support daily service to anywhere in Asia with the exception of NRT, but only in combination
38 PHXA340 : I can't agree with this just because US priorities are clearly not internationally driven. They deferred their A330 deliveries to 2013. If BA can mak
39 thenoflyzone : No. An A332 needs a little over 12,000 ft of runway to takeoff at MTOW from PHX (elev. 1,100ft ) in ISA plus 15C conditions, (meaning around 28 Celsi
40 LAXdude1023 : If I remember correctly, the Indian population in the Phoenix area is just over 30,000. The Bay Area has an Indian population close to 250,000 and it
41 Post contains images PHX787 : Well from a fello Phoenician (Nice username, my friend ) A lot of people like this flight, and actually, I have heard it is quite full, despite it bei
42 dlramp4life : I live and work in PHX as well. yay PHX I would like to see more international air service in PHX besides BA, but I do not see any other carrier comi
43 Byrdluvs747 : I agree with you completely. Many on here comment about PHX, and yet have little to no real world experience in the valley. However, I just don't thi
44 hz747300 : So if US were to ignore the senator from Texas and buy AA, it would actually hurt PHX's chances, right? Since the only long haul is already a One Worl
45 PHXA340 : Well assuming US maintains the PHX hub , BA would love it as it gets more Oneworld feed but yes it would probably kill any other chance for a Europea
46 mogandoCI : Has any airline tried SFO-India nonstop ? That half-hearted effort by 9W doesn't really count. With the 787-8 or 787-9, I think UA should definitely
47 thegman : And that is the exact employer in question, so no presence means no travel. Plus it isn't like US has employees going to these far-flung destinations
48 LAXdude1023 : India yeilds are just so low. You have to have such a massive market (ala Toronto, New York, and Chicago) to really make it work. San Francisco could
49 Tdan : I realize your buddy thinks NRTPHX is inevitable, but you'll see NH in DEN and LAS before PHX, which really eliminates much of the need for a nonstop
50 brilondon : Or through EWR, IAH, and ORD I don't see a bunch of golf playing retired people wanting to travel around the world in first class.[Edited 2012-04-18
51 Viscount724 : The Indian/South Asian population in metro YVR must now be close to 250,000 (it was over 200,000 in 2001 and India and Pakistan have been the 2nd and
52 PHX787 : IIRC DEN is already slated to see 787 service in the future anyway. When that happens I'm not sure, but I said, once the economy gets to picking up,
53 southwest737500 : I don't think there is a need for a long haul flight on us airways part. Think about us air flew from CLT-PHNL a couple of years and they ended it bec
54 brilondon : They also ended it because people were not that interested in making a refueling stop before continuing over the Pacific. Also the aircraft they used
55 southwest737500 : But if you put a nice A332 on that route then it's a different story US just doesn't have the avaibilty of the A332 until 2013
56 PHXA340 : How much runway does the BA 744 need during the summer time ? Its only April and temps for this weekend are going to hit 100 F. True but US still has
57 southwest737500 : I agree with you about the 3x weekly to Europe and Asia But when us air starts getting more A332 next year there going to put then where they can mak
58 EricR : Yeah, I am not so sure the 14K foot runway is a necessity. While heat / elevation has an impact, the current runway lengths at PHX are sufficient. BA
59 Creep : As a US Airways employee in PHX, the most recent word I recall hearing from Doug Parker regarding Asia service from PHX is that it is not at all a pri
60 PHXA340 : I don't doubt it. Parker has probably got his hands full trying to get AA, fight off WN and other low cost competition, merge together two pilot grou
61 Creep : Agreed. And I meant to add that he stated those reasons months before there was even a whisper about merging with AA. Plenty of bigger things to deal
62 PHXA340 : True, the sad part is DL brings in way more widebodies to PHX than US. Gotta love Spring Training for that.
63 Seabiscuit : Do they have any plans to build a 14ft runway?
64 PHXA340 : That might pose a problem as you have the I-10 to the West blocking expansion. I think you could to the East but if the 744 can clear the current run
65 thenoflyzone : it's sufficient for the current destinations served. If PHX wants service to Asia, or other European destinations further than LHR, they will need a
66 PHXA340 : Ah , thanks for the info. I gotta say though, sometimes at 8 pm its still 100 out on some summer months , but that makes sense why they don't need th
67 wn676 : Not during daylight hours. It was fully closed for the latter half of January of this year.
68 Post contains images PHX787 : Welcome to the other boards There's no room, and as stated before, no need. The winds have allowed widebodies to take off fine on 26 during the summe
69 dlramp4life : Indeed...We love it as well but don't forget the random plane changes a 767-300/300ER will replace a 757-300 some days and nights.. The daily BA 747
70 Post contains images Byrdluvs747 : Not going to happen in Arizona. No politician here would suggest spending the billions of dollars to do so when the state has far bigger priorities.
71 airbazar : What other options? There is no other non-stop option. You're assuming that the "premium fare" market is big enough for more than 1 daily flight to E
72 RWA380 : Doesn't one of those 75's to Hawaii originate in CLT as a 1 stop service? I thought PHL had one flight like that too. Hope it works better than the H
73 Byrdluvs747 : Considering there are so few long haul routes, I doubt there is much to constrain. In theory, if there were more intl long haul routes out of PHX, I
74 thegman : The stop was only required when the winds were extremely harsh. I flew the route twice, once with a fuel stop in PHX which was announced before takin
75 2travel2know2 : If US Star Alliance pal NZ ever needs to increase its AKL-LON capacity, AKL-PHX-LON might be worth considering.
76 mogandoCI : 1. 343 is a significant gas-guzzler compared to 787-9. 2. SFO catchment area is 2.5-3x population of YVR. Sidenote : Cali has a larger population tha
77 Post contains images PHXA340 : God I wish but the chances of that happening are probably 0. I still only see a viable long haul market with smaller planes via the 787 or 358. Plus
78 EricR : Well that is somewhat misleading. First of all, Condor operated for a brief period of time. However, but out of the 3 years LH served PHX, more of th
79 wn676 : It's not the only one, there's still Mobest over at 19th Ave and Grand and Campo farther out in the west valley. But I agree that UP would rather not
80 PHX787 : Correct. Remember the DL 744 a few weeks ago?
81 dlramp4life : I do, really ticked that I missed it but a 744 is not a normal ship change from a 752 to a 763 and sometimes the A330...
82 brilondon : And in this fantasy world, AC would restart YYZ-HNL with the A333's or the 787 when they get here but that won't be happening. The fact is if US want
83 PHXA340 : Mainland - Hawaii flights are squeezed on margins due to competition but they can make Europe or Asia more profitable. To my knowledge, I don't think
84 brilondon : I believe that is why they had to use the 762's on that route. I don't see enough profit on it though to justify the route. They seem to be OK with c
85 wn676 : They do not and will not have much room for expansion at all, even after the A332 deliveries next year and in to 2014. US is actually forecasting a s
86 PHXA340 : They have 8 332 on order , with 10 762ERs slated for retirement, so your right there will be a net loss of 2 widebodies which doesn't bode well for a
87 wn676 : I'm pretty bad at editing posts so you probably missed it, but just to clarify, the 767s will be staying through the next round of A332 deliveries to
88 rlwynn : I flew twice in the summer with LH on a 342 to FRA with seemingly every seat full and it did not seem to have a problem.
89 dlramp4life : The A340 did not get along with the PHX heat....That is what I have been told
90 PHXA340 : LH ran A340-200s and A340-300s from 2001 - 2004. That route lasted 4 years meaning LH must have had some profitability in in before pulling the plug o
91 Ardent15 : Of course, Phoenix was also one of the worst areas hit by the housing bubble/burst in the mid/late 2000s. So the local economy sagging there has redu
92 IAHWorldFlyer : PHX does not support much international flying other than to Mexico for the same reason that DFW does not have a huge number of international flights.
93 southwest737500 : You can't forget about those precious A350 guys
94 Post contains images wn676 : No one is forgetting them, it's just that there is no definitive plan that's been set yet for aircraft that are still five years out from joining the
95 thenoflyzone : That's because the early A340 models (the ones with blowdryers, not engines) never really performed a takeoff. Takeoff is achieved due to the curvatu
96 PHXA340 : Haha come on now, not all takeoffs can be like a lightly loaded 757.
97 RIXrat : I have twice flown the BA flight PHX-LHR-ARN and found it to cost about $150 more r/t than going through ORD, JFK, or EWR. Both of these times were in
98 RWA380 : Even on our worst days near 100 degrees and humid, as much as it gets here, LH A-340's got out of PDX just fine, granted we have a sea-level airport
99 Byrdluvs747 : Near 100 temps don't compare to 115+.
100 thenoflyzone : Granted, but how many days of the year do you have 100 F weather. You could probably count it on one hand. Average temps for July and Aug in PDX is a
101 PHX787 : Phoenix came to a screeching halt in the mid-2000s, and that wouldn't surprise me if that had som sort of adverse affect on the LH route. I think mor
102 PHXA340 : Economy is good , housing prices up 22.4 % in that last 6 months and unemployment almost below 8 now. AZ is a very business friendly state. I still m
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