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EU Bending On Airline Carbon Tax Scheme?  
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

I have not seen this posted anywhere...

It seems there is a crack in the EU armor and some bending to begin talking (again) about the carbon tax it is imposing on flights to/from the EU, no matter how much time they spend flying outside of European air space.

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/...making-airlines-pay-carbon-charge/

India and China have flat out rejected the scheme for their airlines. The US, Russia, and some 20 other countries outright oppose it for their airlines.

The tax scheme began on 1 Jan. 2012. Airlines that are flying into any airport within the EU are to pay a tax from their departure point. Likewise airlines who depart an EU airport, pay the tax all the way to landing at the destination.

The EU claims the costs per passenger is about "the price of a cup of coffee". But if the EU gets away with their foot in the door, or camel's nose under the tent approach, they can later increase taxes as far as they want.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

There are signs that the EU will come to a more sensible solution, i.e. that carbon taxes will apply only to the sections of flights performed in the EU.
The main protest from airlines was obviously to pay taxes from flight start points towards the EU.


User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 1):
There are signs that the EU will come to a more sensible solution, i.e. that carbon taxes will apply only to the sections of flights performed in the EU.
The main protest from airlines was obviously to pay taxes from flight start points towards the EU.

Would this be the same for EU airlines? If not, that would be extremely bad news for them.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
The EU claims the costs per passenger is about "the price of a cup of coffee". But if the EU gets away with their foot in the door, or camel's nose under the tent approach, they can later increase taxes as far as they want.

That's my main issue with it. The scheme in itself is quite ingenious and one of the fairest ways to tax carbon emissions. A discussion about if that's necessary is another matter, but from an economic point of view the ETS makes a lot of sense. The problem is politics, I'm afraid this will be yet another prestige project for the EU government and that's dangerous. As you say, they're in control and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3292 times:

The EU should not be doing this. If individual countries within the EU want to do this within their own airspace that is a seperate issue. But the EU itself is not a country, it is an international organization much like the UN, which does not have authority over individual countries.

That said, the EU seriuosly overstepped its international authority to a global authority. Believing that it can tax an airline during the portion of a flight that is outside of the EU, within another non-member country or international airspace.


User currently offlinejdevora From Spain, joined Aug 2006, 354 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
The EU should not be doing this. If individual countries within the EU want to do this within their own airspace that is a seperate issue. But the EU itself is not a country, it is an international organization much like the UN, which does not have authority over individual countries.

That is not exactly true, in some things the individual countries "gave up" their powers and decided that the EU should take care of them (e.g. the Euro). In some specific aspects the countries are like the different States in the USA.

Cheers
JD


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 339 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting jdevora (Reply 4):
That is not exactly true, in some things the individual countries "gave up" their powers and decided that the EU should take care of them (e.g. the Euro). In some specific aspects the countries are like the different States in the USA.

Some countries of EU joined the Euro and others did not, and apparently will not. Rumor has it that some countries may even be forced out of the Euro. What is the status of powers regarding taxing flights? I have no idea. But one thing that the members of EU are not like is the US States and their relationship with the Federal Government.


User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7665 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Quoting jdevora (Reply 4):
in some things the individual countries "gave up"

In international circles, the some things is the issue, EU member nations allowed the EU to negotiate air treaties for them while at the same time not obligating the EU as an organization to the individual treaties that its members signed, like the ETS scheme an ingenious approach to international relations.

It will be interesting to see how the negotiations work, for long term stabiity I think the EU member nations should more closely integrate cancelling all their individual member air treaties and having all fall under the umbrella of the EU. It's only a matter of time before this major loop hole is exploited again, its what politicians do.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2886 times:
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Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 2):
The scheme in itself is quite ingenious and one of the fairest ways to tax carbon emissions.

The issue is the nose under the tent scenario. How is overflight handled? What if a flight that wasn't scheduled to land in the EU has to. e.g., the DXB-YYZ stop in DUB due to lack of crew rest.

The question is, what do airlines get out of the tax? Added airport infrastructure? GPS based ATC? A unified EU ATC?
I wouldn't oppose this tax if it didn't seem like another anti-aviation initiative a la nigh curfews.

There are provisions of this tax that are not in the current bilaterals on aviation and trade. Europe must renegotiate those bilaterals before implementing such a tax. The other is the 'trading scheme.' How does one buy more credits if there are none for sale by airlnes under-utilizing their quota? Would this impact a flight from India to the USA? In other words, is EU trying to restrict trade between other nations?

There are too many open holes in this tax that would give the EU control over international trade. We've already seen how the EU NIMBYs can slow growth at LHR and FRA. Do we really want to give them global control?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBA677 From UK - England, joined Jan 2012, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

The tax should be abolished. It does nothing but hurt airlines at a hard time. The EU needs investment from other parts of the world and this does not help.

User currently offlineEI564 From Ireland, joined May 2007, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting BA677 (Reply 8):
The tax should be abolished. It does nothing but hurt airlines at a hard time. The EU needs investment from other parts of the world and this does not help.

Admittedly, the UK government is quite happy to put taxes on airlines. Far higher taxes than ETS and a lot more arbitrary. I'd focus on those than ETS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Would this impact a flight from India to the USA?

Not as it currently stands. And whatever about the current scheme, I couldn't see how overlights could be brought into the scheme. At least without approval from at least one of those governments.

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 5):
But one thing that the members of EU are not like is the US States and their relationship with the Federal Government.

In fairness, it was stated that in "some aspects" the EU behaves like the US. In the formation of ETS, the EU behaves more like a country. Although, the individual countries in the EU did sign up for ETS, so its not like the EU is dictating things to the individual countries. Its a complex structure, which shouldn't be easily labelled one thing or the other.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting EI564 (Reply 9):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):Would this impact a flight from India to the USA?
Not as it currently stands. And whatever about the current scheme, I couldn't see how overlights could be brought into the scheme. At least without approval from at least one of those governments.

Why not? The EU implamented ETS without approval from any country outside of the EU.

Quoting EI564 (Reply 9):
In the formation of ETS, the EU behaves more like a country.

The EU is not a country, it is an international organization, period.

Quoting par13del (Reply 6):
In international circles, the some things is the issue, EU member nations allowed the EU to negotiate air treaties for them while at the same time not obligating the EU as an organization to the individual treaties that its members signed, like the ETS scheme an ingenious approach to international relations.

Correct. Individual member states can now ignor previous treaties they have signed under the reasoning that the EU has trumped those treaties.

Quoting jdevora (Reply 4):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):The EU should not be doing this. If individual countries within the EU want to do this within their own airspace that is a seperate issue. But the EU itself is not a country, it is an international organization much like the UN, which does not have authority over individual countries.
That is not exactly true, in some things the individual countries "gave up" their powers and decided that the EU should take care of them (e.g. the Euro). In some specific aspects the countries are like the different States in the USA.

No, it is not like the individual 50 states within the United States. Texas, New Hampshire, and California do not hold individual memberships in the UN, nor do they have any individual international treaties with anyone. The US has a common currency in all 50 states. Not all of the 27 member countries use the Euro as their common currency. The value of the Euro is based on the riches of individual states, not the riches of the EU as a whole, like the USD is. Not all European countries are members of the EU. There are 4 countries of the EFTA that organize outside of the EU. There is one semi-official language in the US, the EU has about 23 official languages. In the US, we have a common defense organization, with individual states Air National and National Guard units that provide reserve forces to the active duty units. Most European countries have individual military forces that do not interoperate with some other countries military forces. But several EU countries (not all) are members of NATO, along with the US and Canada.


User currently onlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
The EU is not a country, it is an international organization, period.

Quite a naive view. Do you know anything about the EU?

Yes, it is official an international organisation BUT in many areas it has jurisdiction including the environment, competition law, fishing policy, agricultural policy, some immigration policy, some fiscal policy, trade (the free market), customs etc etc.

Also many European (EU and non-EU) countries are part of the Eurocontrol area, which essentially is a single sky over Europe that is regulated from Brussels and have given up soverignty in a number of areas relating to their airspace (by choice I may add).

So you are right that it is an international organisation but countries have passed soverignty relating to this matter over to the European Union and as far as I know all 27 nations signed it into law (as is custom) so in reality the EU is a half-country/half-international organisation.

Might be worth reading up on it  



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User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 11):
SKAirbus

Actually, I know quite a bit about the EU, but I do not profess to be an expert on it. There is lots of information available about the EU. Not all of it is accurate, but a lot of it is.

Not all countries have passed control of airspace over their country to the EU, and the UK is one of those countries, Norway is another. BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

I also know the future of the EU, and EC, does not look good. It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US (those evil people on the other side of the pond). But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout, but Obama supports it.

No, not all European Countries have signed their soverignty over to the EU. Not the British, French, Germans, or many others. France still wants to be the king of the EU, but do not have the economic slout to do it, but Germany does.

The ETS is just another tax to support European social programs. That is how most of the rest of the world sees it. I can hardly wait for the next scam to come out of the EU.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2168 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Actually, I know quite a bit about the EU
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members

  



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineSwissVA From Switzerland, joined Jan 2011, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
I also know the future of the EU, and EC, does not look good. It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US (those evil people on the other side of the pond). But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout, but Obama supports it.

Oh my... A stark reminder as to why I don't really read the A.net forums anymore... yawn...


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

Norway a "full" member? Are you sure?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US.

The US bailing out Germany? Again, are you sure about this? What about China bailing out the EU and the US?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2589 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Why not? The EU implamented ETS without approval from any country outside of the EU

I don't see how this is related to overflights, which the above quote was a reaction to. But nevertheless . . .
They (any country outside of the EU) were all free, and actually invited, to join the discussion on how to implement, but nobody seem to be interested. So surpirise, surprise, the EU went alone. How strange now that all those countries are stating that they are not against ETS itself, but against the way it is implemented.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
The EU is not a country, it is an international organization, period

Nobody stated the EU was a country, period.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):

This reply made quite some sense, although several statements you made are up for some intersting discussuons, which I do enjoy btw. However this threw it all away . . . .

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
The ETS is just another tax to support European social programs. That is how most of the rest of the world sees it. I can hardly wait for the next scam to come out of the EU

If that is how you see it (tax for social programs, scams), you clearly don't understand a thing of the EU, or socialism (which btw are two totally different things).
While I may have some doubts and concerns on the "EU thing", as a proud Dutch I'm a member of the EU and I feel very much offended by this kind of talk.

Thank you for reminding me again why more and more I feel myself no longer welcome on this forum.



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently onlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Actually, I know quite a bit about the EU, but I do not profess to be an expert on it. There is lots of information available about the EU. Not all of it is accurate, but a lot of it is.

Not all countries have passed control of airspace over their country to the EU, and the UK is one of those countries, Norway is another. BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

I also know the future of the EU, and EC, does not look good. It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US (those evil people on the other side of the pond). But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout, but Obama supports it.

No, not all European Countries have signed their soverignty over to the EU. Not the British, French, Germans, or many others. France still wants to be the king of the EU, but do not have the economic slout to do it, but Germany does.

The ETS is just another tax to support European social programs. That is how most of the rest of the world sees it. I can hardly wait for the next scam to come out of the EU.

First of all, Norway is not in the EU.

Second of all, all 27 countries have signed over a certain amount of their sovereignty to the EU, otherwise it would not exist. When EU decisions are made, unless a country secures an opt out, the resulting regulation is binding on ALL members. The UK is part of that and the ETS applies here too.

Thirdly... Do you have your TV permanently tuned to Fox News? Never heard so much tripe in all my life!

Anyway we are talking about ETS and yes it is controversial, I agree something needs to be done to mitigate the increase in air travel and the associated damage it is doing to the environment. But aviation is often used as a scapegoat and policy needs to be shared amongst other areas too, especially heavy industry and cars.



Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

Norway is a "full member" of what? Certainly not the EU.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3678 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Not all countries have passed control of airspace over their country to the EU, and the UK is one of those countries, Norway is another. BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

Let alone the fact that Norway is not, EU membership does not require EZ membership. Also, I don't see how the use of the Euro is of any relevance.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout

Did they have time to go back to sleep after 2008 and the mess in the US?? Also, when was it decided that the US will bail out the EU, I haven't even heard that being mentioned.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
No, not all European Countries have signed their soverignty over to the EU. Not the British, French, Germans, or many others

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they have. All EU countries have given some of their sovereignty to the EU, including the British, the French and the Germans.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
The ETS is just another tax to support European social programs.

Not really, unless you can provide a link showing that information.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
That is how most of the rest of the world sees it. I can hardly wait for the next scam to come out of the EU.

What "other scams" did you get from the EU so far? I'm just curious.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Norway is another. BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

Norway is not a member of the EU, only a member of the European Economic Area (EEA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%98S


User currently offlinemagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
The EU is not a country, it is an international organization, period.

just do not "period" here, ok! You are not an authority who decide about issues here, You have the right to have your opinion, and we should respect that, but that is all.

My opinion is that the EU is not "yet" a country, in the traditional sense, but slowly proceding on its way to become one. And my personal view is that it should become one.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
I also know the future of the EU, and EC, does not look good. It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US (those evil people on the other side of the pond). But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout, but Obama supports it.

You maybe right about this, but I hope you are wrong   ! In my opinion, all the EU needs is closer cooperation and taking responsability for each other. The fundamental state of the EU economy as a whole is not worse than that of the US. It just cannot act and appear like a country, like the US, on the world stage. And this is the root of the problem.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
The EU is not a country, it is an international organization, period.

Wake up. I looked onto my passport - it says European Community. I elect the European parliament. Laws of the European parliament are binding for local (ex-national) legislation. Directives of the commisiion have to be applied by the local governemnts or they get fined.

The EU today is a more central state than the US is.

Back to the carbon scheme. our good friends at Ryanair put the ETS tax onto every ticket they sell, and you can be sure they pass it to the the pax >100% - it is 25 cent per ticket for a flight Germany-UK. So it is not about this tiny amount of money, that is similar to an increase of the oil price by a few cent per barrel.

But the damage is already big and a solution has to be found. I personnally had seen the airports as the location of the polution and charged the money from them, not from the airlines.


User currently offlinewhiskeyhotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Actually, I know quite a bit about the EU, but I do not profess to be an expert on it. There is lots of information available about the EU. Not all of it is accurate, but a lot of it is.

Not all countries have passed control of airspace over their country to the EU, and the UK is one of those countries, Norway is another. BTW, as you should know, neither Norway, nor the UK use the Euro, yet are "full" members.

I also know the future of the EU, and EC, does not look good. It may be its best chance for survival would be a bailout from the US (those evil people on the other side of the pond). But many Americans are waking up to the economic problems of Europe (again) and are opposed to a bailout, but Obama supports it.

No, not all European Countries have signed their soverignty over to the EU. Not the British, French, Germans, or many others. France still wants to be the king of the EU, but do not have the economic slout to do it, but Germany does.

The ETS is just another tax to support European social programs. That is how most of the rest of the world sees it. I can hardly wait for the next scam to come out of the EU.

Odd that the facts I learned in my EU Law and Public Law of the UK and Scotland courses when obtaining my LL.B. are completely contradictory to nearly every "factual" assertion you make in this and other posts concerning the make-up of the E.U. and how it functions. I fear you may have been getting your information about the EU from some of the inaccurate sources that you reference.

[Edited 2012-04-19 07:20:38]

User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

To try and stick to aerospace matters, let's remember that there is the ESA (European Space Agency) and the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency).
So sensu stricto they are not "replacing" the sovereign states, but they are acting for them in a unified way, under their control.
Ac are now certified by the EASA and not be the national agencies.
Quote:
"The agency's responsibilities include:
•expert advice to the EU for drafting new legislation;
•implementing and monitoring safety rules, including inspections in the Member States;
•type-certification of aircraft and components, as well as the approval of organisations involved in the design, manufacture and maintenance of aeronautical products;
•authorization of third-country (non EU) operators;
•safety analysis and research."
Unquote
So, that we want it or not, like it or not, the European countries are slowly building-up competences and authorities at the EU level.


25 DLPMMM : The point is that the EU is enacting extra-territorial taxation in contravention of treaties signed by their member states. If the EU wants such right
26 Aesma : I'm sure it's argued that it's just like an import tax. The EU can tax more or less if the goods comes from such or such country.
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