And also a very interesting analysis (also in Spanish) of somebody on a forum:
"Hasta ahora, la mayor parte de los pilotos de Iberia procedían del ejército: concretamente de sucesivas promociones de la Escala de Complemento del Ejército del Aire. Se incorporaban al Ejército muy jóvenes, con formación de Bachiller o equivalente, y pasaban por la Escuela Elemental de Vuelo, en Armilla (Granada), la base de Matacán, en Salamanca, o la de San Javier, en Murcia. Tras un breve paso por el Ejército, casi todos firmaban contrato con Iberia (algunos, con Aviaco) que, por entonces, era la empresa bandera del Estado Español ante el mundo. En realidad, Iberia utilizaba al Ejército del Aire como escuela de formación de sus pilotos. Sociológicamente, casi todos procedían de familias de pequeña burguesía o de origen más humilde (salvo los pocos pertenecientes a castas o apellidos muy acreditados en la compañía), pero en los muchos años que estuve en contacto con ellos pude comprobar que, casi todos, tenían un denominador común: la rápida asimilación a los hábitos y costumbres que se desarrollan por el hecho de recibir mucho dinero en muy poco tiempo. Casi todos (con muy pocas y honrosas excepciones) asimilaron una mentalidad clasista, de casta privilegiada, que los volvió insensibles a los problemas y dificultades de otros colectivos (aunque estuvieran próximos a ellos); no digamos de los problemas sociales de una España en acelerado proceso de cambio. Naturalmente, su esencia ideológica se volvió de derechas (de esa derecha que se proclama apolítica), pero veían con naturalidad que su empresa -estatal- les pagase un salario desorbitado que convertía a Iberia en un proyecto ruinoso desde el punto de vista económico (según criterios financieros). Pero ellos, convertidos en dueños y señores de un sector tan estratégico para un país como el espacio aéreo, podían chantajear a la compañía hasta el extremo de acaparar la mayor parte de toda la masa salarial de la misma, siendo en número una minoría del personal de la compañía.
Talaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9660 times:
There is no going back. Their privileges have ended and they either take it or they are out. The question is how long it will take the government to declare the strike illegal. At that point the conflict will be ended and the pilots can choose to stay in the company or leave. Although for most of them the most likely outcome is a dismissal with a very, very small payout.
26 strikes in 30 years. They have dug their own grave out of it.
LHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 740 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9488 times:
This is the Iberia press release in English.
SEPLA should have seen from the experience of BASSA at BA that militancy and resistance of change outright doesn't work with IAG.
Quote: Iberia today announced plans to implement a series of measures aimed at making the airline more competitive and strengthening its position in a period marked by weak demand, high fuel prices, and fierce competition. This position has been aggravated seriously by the strikes held since December by the SEPLA pilots union which have cost the company some three million euros per strike day.
The purpose of the measures is to reduce Iberia’s unit costs and to raise productivity. Specifically, pilots’ payroll costs will be cut by 20% or 62 million euros, and productivity will be increased by 25%.
The company decided that the measures will apply to the pilots alone, who are the only employees who, following more than two and a half years of negotiations, have failed to reach an agreement on a new union contract, such as those agreed by ground staff and cabin crews.
The cut in unit costs is to be achieved via a 12% reduction in pay scales and other measures bringing an additional 8% decrease in pilots’ payroll costs, such as the elimination of certain automatic pay hikes linked to the inflation rate. Another measure will adjust remuneration to pilots with 15 years’ seniority who choose to work fewer hours, so that pay is proportional to the hours worked. The guarantee to pilots who lose their licenses will be cut from 90% to 45% of their pay, and incentive pay for attaining objectives will be dropped.
Productivity will be increased by raising the number of hours worked by Iberia pilots, within legally established limits. Iberia will now set a limit of 900 flying hours per year for pilots, raising it from the 820 or 850 hours (depending on distances flown) limit stipulated in the last collective bargaining agreement, although the real number of hours flown is closer to 650. Seniority-linked extra vacation days will be dropped, and there will be changes in on-call arrangements. Lastly, the composition of flight crews will be modified within the limits of current legislation.
Iberia financial manager José María Fariza commented that “the company accepts the necessity of applying these measures within the current framework of labour laws and agreements, as the sole means of ensuring success in the difficult situation faced by the airline”, adding that “this battery of actions aimed at making Iberia profitable is in line with what comparable airlines are doing and is absolutely necessary to enable us to compete successfully in a globalised market”.
Meanwhile, Iberia today called on the SEPLA pilots union to return to the bargaining table to negotiate a new contract and to call off the strikes that do so much damage to the company and the customers who maintain it.
Iberia expresses its regret that SEPLA representatives decided not to attend the meeting called for today in which the company intended to explain the new measures it is proposing to implement, in an indication of if its lack of interest in negotiations. Iberia has invited them to new meetings called for the 18th, 19th, 20th, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th and 27th of April, and in order to facilitate their attendance has abstained from assigning flying duty to any SEPLA representative for the next 15 days.
As in earlier strikes, the company expresses its regrets for any inconvenience caused and pledges to use all means at its disposal to minimise the strikes’ impact on travel plans. Iberia also thanks all its other employees for their efforts in providing the best possible services to our customers.
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9337 times:
A 20% cut in a one-sided announcement. Is that even possible? It is quite shocking for sure. I'm not going to defend the pilots or the airline, as I don't have enough information, and I generally oppose strikes, but after a 20% salary cut (effectively more due to forced increased hours) I can't say I blame them...
PGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2516 posts, RR: 45 Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9235 times:
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 3): A 20% cut in a one-sided announcement. Is that even possible? It is quite shocking for sure. I'm not going to defend the pilots or the airline, as I don't have enough information, and I generally oppose strikes, but after a 20% salary cut (effectively more due to forced increased hours) I can't say I blame them...
Having seen my pay halved and loss of my pension during bankruptcy, I am much less likely to rush to judgment when "I don't have enough information." This is bitter medicine, but prolonging it will only make it worse. These pilots have a history of striking beyond reason, and while the profession may be underpaid in certain sectors, their existing contract is in no realistic way competitive.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10682 posts, RR: 100 Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9160 times:
Quoting Talaier (Reply 1): 26 strikes in 30 years. They have dug their own grave out of it.
WHAT?!? That is horrid... There should be multiple years between strikes.
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9110 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5): WHAT?!? That is horrid... There should be multiple years between strikes.
We are talking about Europe my friend, they strike each summer
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4): Having seen my pay halved and loss of my pension during bankruptcy,
Personally I usually think of this as a case of not moving on when the walls start to crumble, yes you may go elsewhere for lower pay and benefits, but I think in the long run the stress, anxiety and the massive change in the work environment is not physically healthy, after all, when one is finished working you should be healthy enough to enjoy your retirement, even if there is less money to spend.
Talaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9075 times:
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 3):
A 20% cut in a one-sided announcement. Is that even possible? It is quite shocking for sure. I'm not going to defend the pilots or the airline, as I don't have enough information, and I generally oppose strikes, but after a 20% salary cut (effectively more due to forced increased hours) I can't say I blame them...
It is thanks to the new Spanish jobs law act passed a few weeks ago.
blueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 25 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9067 times:
Quote: Productivity will be increased by raising the number of hours worked by Iberia pilots, within legally established limits. Iberia will now set a limit of 900 flying hours per year for pilots, raising it from the 820 or 850 hours (depending on distances flown) limit stipulated in the last collective bargaining agreement, although the real number of hours flown is closer to 650.
See, this is something which I will never comprehend; I got into flying for the love of flying. I know a few people who view it as nothing more than a job with a decent wage and good pension at the end, but the vast majority of my friends, colleagues and peers are pilots because they are aviators who live for flying, who sign off after their trip and dash over to the other side of the airfield to go fly their historic cub or go off for a few hours VFR back to basics fun flying. Flying is in their blood, it was always their ambition, their life's desire to fly.
I just cannot comprehend or understand a professional pilot who would actually want to fly for as little as 650 hours a year; it simply doesn't compute...
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9041 times:
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 8): I just cannot comprehend or understand a professional pilot who would actually want to fly for as little as 650 hours a year; it simply doesn't compute...
You partly answered your question.
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 8): but the vast majority of my friends, colleagues and peers are pilots because they are aviators who live for flying, who sign off after their trip and dash over to the other side of the airfield to go fly their historic cub or go off for a few hours VFR back to basics fun flying.
A vast majority of time spent by pilots flying missions longer than two hours is system monitoring / system management, indeed autopilots can now be activated within a few minutes of wheels up, a lot of old timers will tell you what those folks do toay is not flying, even if they must have Bsc's to get into the cockpit.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8809 times:
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 8): I just cannot comprehend or understand a professional pilot who would actually want to fly for as little as 650 hours a year; it simply doesn't compute...
I would bet that a lot of it has to do with time spent away from home. That can start to wear on you. Flying is great, no doubt about it, but seeing your loved ones in person instead of talking to them on the phone is pretty great too.
That said, 650 hours a year isn't competitive at all.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Eagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1617 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8690 times:
20% reduction in flight crew costs is a huge aim. It seems over the top in my opinion. Are these costs across the board or just flight crew? The you have to ask how many the IB flight crew and other staff get paid? Is it that far above industry norm? (I am sure we have all heard of the very expensive Spanish ATCO's)
It all depends on how logical and realistic the IB flight crew are. Several airlines recently have had staff accept the bitter pills they have been handed in order to keep the company afloat.
Quoting Talaier (Reply 1): 26 strikes in 30 years. They have dug their own grave out of it.
I had an idea it was bad in Spain, but this is unbelievable. Is this counting all Iberia staff or just the flight crew?
(In 15 years in my airline we have had industrial action 4 times with only 1 actual strike)
Quoting Mir (Reply 11): That said, 650 hours a year isn't competitive at all.
With 900 being the maximum limit I would assume 800+ is a more efficient average hours per crew member to attain.
Bralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 585 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8530 times:
Wow... 20% pay cut??? Is this even legally possible? I don't pick sides since I don't know any facts but this is a bit harsh I think. If my employer (non-aviation) would say on one given day: you'll be earning 20% less I'm pretty sure that the whole company would just walk away the same day to never come back... While the times may be though 20% is huge... Add that with 25% extra productivity and you'll have a pay cut that just enormous...
It's certainly an audacious move. But probably necessary to get SEPLA back to the negotiating table and to agree on a new collective bargaining agreement.
LHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 740 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8093 times:
According to the Financial Times in London (article behind a paywall) this will trigger 15 days of negotiations with SEPLA and if an agreement cannot be reached, an arbitration committee will step in.
BA677 From UK - England, joined Jan 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8047 times:
Quoting par13del (Reply 6): We are talking about Europe my friend, they strike each summer
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 8): See, this is something which I will never comprehend; I got into flying for the love of flying. I know a few people who view it as nothing more than a job with a decent wage and good pension at the end, but the vast majority of my friends, colleagues and peers are pilots because they are aviators who live for flying, who sign off after their trip and dash over to the other side of the airfield to go fly their historic cub or go off for a few hours VFR back to basics fun flying. Flying is in their blood, it was always their ambition, their life's desire to fly.
I just cannot comprehend or understand a professional pilot who would actually want to fly for as little as 650 hours a year; it simply doesn't compute...
There are so many qualified pilots out there hue have put considerable money, time and effort in getting a licence hue cannot get a job. If the pilots don't like Wat's on offer, then they no were to go. The Spanish government should make the strike illegal as it may hurt the economy as well as the airline.
Talaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7855 times:
Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 12): I had an idea it was bad in Spain, but this is unbelievable. Is this counting all Iberia staff or just the flight crew?
(In 15 years in my airline we have had industrial action 4 times with only 1 actual strike)
It's counting ONLY the pilots. We've had our fair share of strikes over here I guess. In any case it does include its period as a state-owned company, which of course meant industrial action happened under different conditions.
Full Iberia public note can be found here (in English)
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6879 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days ago) and read 7339 times:
Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 13): If my employer (non-aviation) would say on one given day: you'll be earning 20% less I'm pretty sure that the whole company would just walk away the same day to never come back...
I'm sure IB pilots can walk away if they chose. But they don't want to, that's the idea for strikes. To get what you want.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 15): Well, at least now we know where M-rats, Catsarse and Eddihad will be running their next recruitment drives ...
Where they'll be making a lot less than the 20% reduction that they're being offered
Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 12):
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
That said, 650 hours a year isn't competitive at all.
With 900 being the maximum limit I would assume 800+ is a more efficient average hours per crew member to attain.
If 900 is the upper bound, that is no pilot may fly more than 900 hours annually, than that is absurd. That comes to an average of 75 hours a month. That is the MAXIMUM.
Here in the US, and I would assume most other countries, typical scheduled hours per month range from 70-80 hours per month. That said, one is welcome to drop trips, but US pilots are generally scheduled the amount the maximum amount IB's pilots can fly. That's just not competitive.
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 2): Iberia will now set a limit of 900 flying hours per year for pilots, raising it from the 820 or 850 hours (depending on distances flown) limit stipulated in the last collective bargaining agreement, although the real number of hours flown is closer to 650.
That 650+ AVERAGE has to be put into perspective; to come up with that figure I guess Iberia has included instructor and check pilots, guys over 60 that fly only half time, maternal leaves, etc... and probably even the guys unfortunate enough to have lost their licenses who are still in the payroll. On top of that pilots are required to be on call up to two months a year, flying less than usual during that periods.
Cheers,
j
"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
sf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3787 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5): Quoting Talaier (Reply 1):
26 strikes in 30 years. They have dug their own grave out of it.
WHAT?!? That is horrid... There should be multiple years between strikes.
Lightsaber
Last year, we had a guy over here "celebrating" his 100th strike -in 25 years- with our national railway company. That makes those 26 strikes look silly...
25 bj87: Good grief and I thought Air France was the holy grail of strikes! Sometimes I don't get it. Yes everyone has the right to strike but it has to be me
26 r2rho: The FAA limit is irrelevant in this matter, as the airlines IB is losing money against are subjected to the EASA limit of 900hrs, and that is the ref
27 tonystan: Well many of those BASSA members sacked by BA cos of the dispute have now had to be reinstated, those that have decided not to return have been signi
28 GCPET: 20% seem's a ridiculous amount of a salary? What would a A340 Captain at Iberia get it comparison to a B747 Captain at BA (since they're IAG)? My Dad
29 blueshamu330s: 5, yes, just FIVE. Did you get that everyone? Just five people out of the 42+ who were rightly sacked for their disgusting behaviour. And you know th
30 LHRFlyer: Not quite! There were around 30 sackings during the dispute. Of these BA agreed 18 could go to ACAS arbitration and it was announced that a settlemen
31 tonystan: My goodness you are one very very angry and bitter person just going by that post! And a threat in there too! Nice! But yes you are correct....WW fle
32 blueshamu330s: Not angry or bitter; I simply abhor it when people or groups reinvent history or invent "facts" in the pursuit of their own agenda. Rgds
33 r2rho: Some more detailed info: - It is a 20% reduction in labor costs, not direct salaries. Salaries are reduced 12%. - 25% productivity increase (=more fli
34 babybus: I believe BA pilots get paid 2 hours before the flight even starts and for two hours afterwards (to cover travelling time?). Hence BA pilots live two
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