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New Airbus "Sharklets" Testbed A/C? (PIC)  
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2420 posts, RR: 22
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 18756 times:

Hello All:

I saw this new picture :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dn280



Was curious to know if this plane will wear any sort of specialty scheme or the regular Airbus colors? Hopefully this is the first of many more new Airbus aircraft that will wear the new "Sharklets".


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 18508 times:

Why doesn't it just not have wingtip fences at all right now, I do wonder.

NS


User currently offlinelrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18339 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
Why doesn't it just not have wingtip fences at all right now, I do wonder.

I was wondering the same thing, why would they even install the fences if sharklets are going on before delivery?



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18287 times:

Well don't flight tests have to be done? I would think that they would keep the wingtip fences on to do the pre-delivery tests and by then hopefully the sharklets will be certified and you can then unveil this plane with them on. At least, that's how it works in my head.


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13437 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18253 times:
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Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 3):
Well don't flight tests have to be done? I would think that they would keep the wingtip fences on to do the pre-delivery tests and by then hopefully the sharklets will be certified and you can then unveil this plane with them on. At least, that's how it works in my head.

Airbus definitely wants accurate fuel burn information on the aircraft in the before and after configuration. What if the aircraft had an undiscovered wing warp or engine defect that increased the fuel burn by 1%? They would be selling winglets to customers with that error in performance.

The converse could also be true. What if the fuel metering equipment was off in measuring the fuel flow rate? By benchmarking a 'known,' Airbus can be certain of the improvements the sharklets provide.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaeroweanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 17990 times:
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Manufacturers don't like to build aircraft that are non-conforming. If they built the A320 without tip fences, it would not conform to the master drawing list for the aircraft and thus would not be type-conforming. To get a certificate of airworthiness, it would require an individual airworthiness certificate, which would be a hassle. It is far easier to build it to the type certificate, put it on the experimental register after delivery (to Airbus) and then modify it. When they are done testing it, they can de-mod it and return it to normal airworthiness.

User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 17874 times:

I must say I'll be disappointed when the Airbus wingtip fences go away. They're my favorite design element on the A320 family...such a graceful look IMO.

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17210 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Airbus definitely wants accurate fuel burn information on the aircraft in the before and after configuration. What if the aircraft had an undiscovered wing warp or engine defect that increased the fuel burn by 1%? They would be selling winglets to customers with that error in performance.

Yes but they've been doing back-to-back tests with sharklets&fences on MSN1 since late last year, you'd think they have enough data by now...

Quoting aeroweanie (Reply 5):
Manufacturers don't like to build aircraft that are non-conforming. If they built the A320 without tip fences, it would not conform to the master drawing list for the aircraft and thus would not be type-conforming. To get a certificate of airworthiness, it would require an individual airworthiness certificate, which would be a hassle. It is far easier to build it to the type certificate, put it on the experimental register after delivery (to Airbus) and then modify it. When they are done testing it, they can de-mod it and return it to normal airworthiness.

This seems like the more plausible explanation. As that is a serial aircraft that will end up going to ANZ, and the sharklets aren't certified yet, Airbus likely has to build it to serial specs first, then modify it after its "delivery" to the flight test department.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 904 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 16722 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
As that is a serial aircraft that will end up going to ANZ, and the sharklets aren't certified yet, Airbus likely has to build it to serial specs first, then modify it after its "delivery" to the flight test department.

I don't believe the aircraft in the photo (msn 5098) is for Air NZ as it has CFM engines and Air NZ has IAE engines.

It's possible Air NZ has cancelled the sharklets as there has been talk of them using the remaining 320's on order for domestic routes instead of the original intention of regional routes. Sharklets on domestic sectors would probably have no benefit.

Can anyone confirm who is getting msn 5098, nothing yet on planespotters.

PA515


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 16391 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 8):
I don't believe the aircraft in the photo (msn 5098) is for Air NZ as it has CFM engines and Air NZ has IAE engines.

It's possible Air NZ has cancelled the sharklets as there has been talk of them using the remaining 320's on order for domestic routes instead of the original intention of regional routes.

Good remark, I hadn't noticed. But if this is the first sharklet a/c and ANZ is (was...?) the launch customer, something is wrong here. Who was the next customer in line for sharklets after ANZ? Perhaps a CFM airline...?   


User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15920 times:

From this article on flightglobal it will be part of the flight test fleet for sharklets:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...lets-test-programme-in-may-367674/

Quote:
Eight aircraft, including MSN1, will participate in the flight-test regime - one of each A320-family airframe, with both current engine options.

Does the A318 get sharklets as well?



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15292 times:

Quoting aeroweanie (Reply 5):
Manufacturers don't like to build aircraft that are non-conforming. If they built the A320 without tip fences, it would not conform to the master drawing list for the aircraft and thus would not be type-conforming. To get a certificate of airworthiness, it would require an individual airworthiness certificate, which would be a hassle. It is far easier to build it to the type certificate, put it on the experimental register after delivery (to Airbus) and then modify it. When they are done testing it, they can de-mod it and return it to normal airworthiness.

Let me remind you of the A320-100......


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andre Oferta



So they wouldn't need to install the fences if they didn't have to, instead just install a standard wingtip.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineCyanide72 From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13999 times:

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 6):
I must say I'll be disappointed when the Airbus wingtip fences go away. They're my favorite design element on the A320 family...such a graceful look IMO.

I definitely agree with that, I too like the wingtip fence design element in the A320 family, but hey, at least the A380 still has them so it's not all that bad.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Emirates/Airbus-A380-861/1770837/L

 


User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1160 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13409 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Yes but they've been doing back-to-back tests with sharklets&fences on MSN1 since late last year, you'd think they have enough data by now...

If they only have data from one single frame, I'd say they don't have nearly enough data. If you run a basic set of fence vs winglet measurements on a second, new-build frame and the numbers basically agree, then fine. If they don't, there's some engineering to do. You need a set of measurements against fences vs winglets on at least one more frame to be able to make performance guarantees that you won't regret later.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12414 times:

Quoting PITingres (Reply 13):
If they only have data from one single frame, I'd say they don't have nearly enough data. If you run a basic set of fence vs winglet measurements on a second, new-build frame and the numbers basically agree, then fine. If they don't, there's some engineering to do.

In comparison to the newer B787 fleet, one would only imagine that there are numerous differences between MSN1 and a current new build!?!? Correct? I don't see how they can predict firm numbers from a ship that does not comply with current build standards.



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Yes but they've been doing back-to-back tests with sharklets&fences on MSN1 since late last year, you'd think they have enough data by now...

Since all aircraft aren't created equal, it certainly makes sense to test fences vs. sharklets on multiple aircraft to ensure the numbers "jive..."

The more data points, the more accurate Airbus can be with the benefits (or lack there of) that sharklets will provide.



Cha brro
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11745 times:

Can sharklets be replaced with the standard wingfences? Perhaps they want to evaluate the wingfences with the new wingtip reinforcement structure as well?


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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13437 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11133 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Yes but they've been doing back-to-back tests with sharklets&fences on MSN1 since late last year, you'd think they have enough data by now...

As Spacepope noted, the reinforcements will change the performance. Or will it?

Did they need the reinforcements to do 'lost sharklet' testing? (All wing treatment devices cannot be fracture or safety critical. In other words, you must be able to fly with one lost. It wouldn't surprise me if Airbus chose to skip that testing until the wing reinforcements were complete.)

Quoting PITingres (Reply 13):
If they only have data from one single frame, I'd say they don't have nearly enough data. If you run a basic set of fence vs winglet measurements on a second, new-build frame and the numbers basically agree, then fine. If they don't, there's some engineering to do. You need a set of measurements against fences vs winglets on at least one more frame to be able to make performance guarantees that you won't regret later.

  

There is also most airframe to airframe or engine to engine variation than anyone wants to discuss. It is also a matter of instrumentation accuracy. In fact, for the level of improvement Airbus is aiming for, statistics implies they need to test 3 airframes to have any meaningful data. They should also test the A319 and A321. While I see zero reason the body length would effect the winglets, it would be risky to guarantee without testing the various A320 body lengths.

In the case of the A320/A321, it is going to be crucial to understand the benefits for MTOW long range missions. (TCON). But Airbus also needs to know the 2300nm mission (US inland hub to far coast), 1200nm (eastern seaboard, long range), and of course shorter missions.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11052 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
There is also most airframe to airframe or engine to engine variation than anyone wants to discuss. It is also a matter of instrumentation accuracy. In fact, for the level of improvement Airbus is aiming for, statistics implies they need to test 3 airframes to have any meaningful data. They should also test the A319 and A321. While I see zero reason the body length would effect the winglets, it would be risky to guarantee without testing the various A320 body lengths.

I mentioned this in my previous post and linked the flightglobal article as well:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 10):
From this article on flightglobal it will be part of the flight test fleet for sharklets:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...lets-test-programme-in-may-367674/

Quote:
Eight aircraft, including MSN1, will participate in the flight-test regime - one of each A320-family airframe, with both current engine options.



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10423 times:

Are the wings that are assembled in the UK all built with wingtip fences? They the completed wings get shipped to the FAL in Germany where they could be installed on any A-32X?

User currently offlineviasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10021 times:

I'm not sure: were the A320s with sharklets than the new A320neo?

User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9258 times:

I faintly remember (can't find the reference) having read that the new A320 would become the new resident test aircraft for Airbus... After all, MSN 001 has been on the job for quite a long time, now...

Anybody with more info about that one?


User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8718 times:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 21):
Anybody with more info about that one?

Yes, It's been mentioned numerous times that this will be the final time that MSN1 will be used as a testbed and in fact will be retired following these "Sharklet" tests.



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineaeroweanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8676 times:
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Quoting gingersnap (Reply 11):
Let me remind you of the A320-100......

So they wouldn't need to install the fences if they didn't have to, instead just install a standard wingtip.

There is a very rigid process, put into place by law, as to how an airplane is configured it is to be certified as airworthy.

If Airbus wanted to build the aircraft as conforming to the A320-100, with no tip fences, it would be limited to a max take-off weight of 149,940 lbs and would have to be powered by CFM56-5A1 or CFM56-5A1/F engines (see the TCDS). Once built as a A320-100, it would be extremely hard, if not impossible, to convert it to a A320-200 and thus would be an unsellable orphan.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5734 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7748 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
Why doesn't it just not have wingtip fences at all right now, I do wonder.

But it does have the wing tips fences on. They are just visually blending into the background grey area where the numbers are painted.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
25 YOWVIEWER : I remember 15 years ago being at Montreal Dorval airport, and watching an Air Canada 747-400 landing, minus one of the winglets. I joked with my son
26 tdscanuck : It's allowed under the CDL. 10,000 lbs enroute climb restriction / 20,800 lbs takeoff restriction. Airbus almost certainly has something similar for
27 Post contains images r2rho : It's true that MSN1 is quite the Frankenstein a/c after all these years and so many tests performed on it... I have heard that too, but not yet, once
28 breiz : Well, let's remember that MSN 0001 is a testbed, validations need to be performed on current models, hence the eight ac to be involved. If we believe
29 gingersnap : Very true. Brain fart moment there. Thanks for clarifying that.
30 r2rho : Well, all wings produced after a certain point this year will have the structural reinforcements. And we see from MSN5098 that swapping fences for sh
31 tdscanuck : Although that's true, there's really no reason you'd have to do the other two as a *flight* test. Wind tunnel would be perfectly fine to show if ther
32 Aircellist : Right. Thanks for the precision, and fingers crossed for the preservation of a bird I've seen in the making, in summer 1986...
33 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : There are photos in the database of aircraft operating with one winglet removed. Here are a few 744s: View Large View MediumPhoto © Maurits Vink
34 Post contains images r2rho : I hear MSN5098 has come out of the hangar and is now equipped with the "sharklets". Would any of the a-net TLS spotters be so kind to get out there wi
35 Post contains links Someone83 : Not my camera, but here's a link http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...1580741132_1970583_574056008_n.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/florent_perau
36 Post contains links zkojq : From Airbus's press release yesterday: Unfortunately it turns out that Air New Zealand won't be getting MSN5098. After reading this, I tweeted EADS's
37 scouseflyer : IIRC, didn't the A380 that got bent at last summer's Paris airshow get ferried back to TLS with only one winglet / fence?
38 BoeingVista : The original plan was for the first sharklet aircraft to take over from MSN1
39 r2rho : Which could explain the all-white livery...? Who is the first IAE customer in line for sharklets?
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