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WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17103 times:

In the quarterly call minutes ago, Gary Kelly said in response to a question that there will be "radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN". Those are pretty dramatic comments. Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

1) Elimination of the Air Tran hub scheduling at ATL? (Likely)
2) Downsizing of the MCO Air Tran network?
3) Further reductions in the size of the ATL network?

Any other ideas?

108 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1807 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17113 times:

Capitalizing on F9's drawdown in MKE and taking some more gates from them?

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17079 times:

Another quote:
Kelly: "The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

Also, "there is an effort underway to see if we can retire those planes faster".

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:14:20]

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5771 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 16814 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
"The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

From the comfort of my armchair, I wholeheartedly disagree!
Shame, in all seriousness- hopefully, they find a good buyer, be it AA, DL, or someone else.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 16726 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
"radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN".

Here is more follow up from Kelly:

"It'll be a very different network. The hub-and-spoke network that they operate in Atlanta. We *won't* do that. We've already announced we are closing 15 destinations and we are redeploying that capacity...Also there is no guarantee that the existing international Air Tran destinations will make the transition to Southwest. When this is all done it will be a very different route network."

"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 16624 times:

Look for...

*WN to grab as many international authorities as they possibly can-MDW-CUN for example. HOU-XXX should their Intl operations be approved.

*Right size ATL Hub to make it profitable under WN's Business (An example is when WN announced the intent to purchase Frontier, it wasn't the expansion of DEN, but it was the addition of ATL that also got billing. Yet ATL was one gate. WN showed as much excitement for ATL through F9 as they do for Air Tran. I don't have a reason or discussion for it but..something to keep in mind.

*Try build up the "small" FL cities like CAK/DSM to match the WN Network

*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

*MCO--WN has slowly taken over much of the MCO-XXX (non ATL flying) routes when possible, maybe look to see more?

*MKE-I believe WN intends to add more to MKE. They did not redeploy the MKE-LGA slots (Are these Air 21 or does this only apply to DCA?) Instead WN took over LGA-MKE Mainline.

*Perhaps Red Eye flying? Who knows.

Everything we said about "WN will never do this" has been thrown out of the window. Any idea is as plausible as the next one. WN is not shy to try anything now.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5411 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16269 times:

I've been waiting patiently (well, for me anyway) to see if/when SAN is going to see any ATL service from WN/FL and the chances seem to be getting slimmer with each passing month. I think there are a lot of other WN cities out west here in the same boat, such as PDX, SNA, ABQ, SLC, SAT, SMF, ELP, etc. These are all solid WN cities -- some certainly larger than others -- that haven't ever had, or, as in the case of SAN, once had FL service (to ATL) but haven't for a couple of years now, so I just wonder when, or if any of us will ever see service to Hartsfield-Jackson on WN, or FL, or whatever the appropriate name is now?

SAN never was a raging success for AirTran and was caught in the cut-back of ATL flights by FL, as well as the MKE-battle and after two years of summer-only service, was uncerimoniously dropped from their route map at the end of the summer of 2010. But SAN has been a large WN station (although shrinking lately but still with 90-100 daily flights and currently on their Top-Ten-Airports list), with healthy O&D passenger count to ATL (a pdew somewhere between 250-300) and lots of DL service in the market. (And IMHO, some competition for DL would be a very good thing!)

So with all that is happening at WN/FL, now and apparently in the near future, especially regarding ATL, I just wonder where these cities fit into the puzzle? Anyone have Mr. Kelly's phone number?  

bb


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16254 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):

*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

It would just seem to go against WN being a choice for business travel. WN wanted to please business travelers esp in markets like Chicago where there is already a lot of nonstops, but still competition. I'm guessing DSM was kept partly for the purpose of building the list of destinations out of Chicago. And short haul routes but over 3 hours drive would seem to fit fine.

By dropping CLE - If one from Chicago wants to travel to Cleveland, WN would be making that pax go to CAK and drive 1 hour into Cleveland. From the east coast, it's even more unpleasant to choose WN to connect in BWI/MDW and then land in CAK to reach Cleveland.

I could see the dual airport strategy to attract pax in Greater Cleveland, but WN isn't associating the two together atleast from the website.

As for MIA, it maybe a different case since they have a big hub/focus city at FLL, and want pax supporting the nonstops out of FLL. i.e. pax support XXX-FLL and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-MIA, and similarly not keep SRQ so that pax support XXX-TPA and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-SRQ. I'm guessing FL's IAD-ATL was dropped but DCA-ATL will stay, and anyways on IAD-ATL there was DL and UA flying the same route. IAD itself might stay in some form.


User currently offlineflyingcaT From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16134 times:

I have to say with codeshare not currently possible they in a bit of a jam. FL is more networkcentric and needs all the connecting feed it can handle. WN has always been heavily focused on short to mid haul O&D traffic.

Couple this with the limitation on FL operating international and they are juggling chainsaws.


User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3811 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16037 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*Try build up the "small" FL cities like CAK/DSM to match the WN Network

It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
Everything we said about "WN will never do this" has been thrown out of the window. Any idea is as plausible as the next one. WN is not shy to try anything now.

That's not true at all. They still can't profitably serve smaller markets. I'll go ahead and say they never will unless they have a serious change in their union contracts. And that is something they're very shy about trying or doing. WN needs 7 or 8 flights a day to be able to serve a city. It's not a preference, it's a necessity in their eyes. Good luck throwing that out of a window, it's pretty heavy.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15957 times:

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

Without seeing the financial books, we don't know how profitable or not each station would be under WN's business plan.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):

That's not true at all. They still can't profitably serve smaller markets.

Says Who? That has yet to be proven considering WN hasn't done "small markets" yet...they will find out soon as they integrate the stations between FL and WN.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
serious change in their union contracts. And that is something they're very shy about trying or doing. WN needs 7 or 8 flights a day to be able to serve a city. It's not a preference, it's a necessity in their eyes. Good luck throwing that out of a window, it's pretty heavy.

Nothing needs to be changed. WN can out source any station that is under 7 flights a day. CRP for example could be out sourced right now. Out of good will WN has not yet.

WN would LIKE to see about 7-8 flights to get good productivity but it is NOT needed at all.

WN already right now is trying to change things in the productivity side especially in small stations and big stations...

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15940 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

But WN flies to IAD?



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15895 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
But WN flies to IAD?

As I said...on the Air Tran (FL Side)

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
IAD and MIA on the FL side,

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15828 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
n the quarterly call minutes ago, Gary Kelly said in response to a question that there will be "radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN". Those are pretty dramatic comments. Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

I was initially optimistic about the merger, but as it goes on, it disappoints me more and more. FL may have stagnated somewhat, but they were still a healthy, viable airline. It's sad to see WN chuck FL's unique features (Small/Mid-sized markets, 717s, Business Class on every aircraft). I agree, this is probably the end of the road for the FL hubs. They'll still be large spokes on the WN route map, but they certainly won't be the same.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

I see what you mean, but I know DSM has the catchment area to support WN service. WN can see where people live who buy tickets on their airline from OMA and MCI, they must be confident they can retain those customers and add more if they being flying from DSM.

That said, DSM has a really bad history of supporting their FL service:
-AirTran pulled out of DSM around the time they were purchased by ValueJet (I remember flying MLI-DSM-MCO-MLI once.)
-AirTran couldn't make an MCO flight work just a few years ago
-AirTran's loads to MKE have been absolute garbage.

It's pretty safe to assume that with loads under 50%, FL hasn't made a dime in the DSM market. I'd say that DSM might not deserve to be one of the FL stations that WN kept around, but obviously WN is keeping them for a reason.

Does anyone think we will see additional station closures? I know they announced that all of the non-closing stations will be transitioned to WN, BUT they've said a lot of other things that didn't come to fruition either.


User currently onlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1704 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15731 times:
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Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

Is this true. Doesnt FL still to P2P to FLL and TPA?


User currently onlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15602 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Kelly: "The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

Why not open Alaska and use the 717 between Alaska and a left coast location.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15469 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."

This is good to hear, and a bit of a relief considering how much F9 has cut recently. Before the merger I think that FL's MKE operation topped out at about 50 flight per day. Does anyone know how many total flights WN/FL will have from MKE come this fall and if there will be any overlap left?

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*MKE-I believe WN intends to add more to MKE. They did not redeploy the MKE-LGA slots (Are these Air 21 or does this only apply to DCA?) Instead WN took over LGA-MKE Mainline.

As of now I think that only 3/5 MKE-LGA flights are changing to WN. Anyone think they might swap out 1 or 2 of the LGA flights with EWR? It'll be interesting to see if they add anything because the operation has been status-quo for quite a while now - not much in terms of additions. Maybe BNA or HOU?



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15362 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
But SAN has been a large WN station (although shrinking lately but still with 90-100 daily flights and currently on their Top-Ten-Airports list),


SAN is shrinking ??? I've seen WN check-in lines so long they were blocking the UA TSA vestibule.

Shrinking must have suddenly been revised to mean "more passengers than *ever.*"


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15305 times:

Well I just hate this. I was so excited about this merger and for ATL but it has not gone well. FL had a great operation and kept DL in check. Now DL is likely kicking back and enjoying the ride. With WN in ATL they (DL) will be more successful against WN than FL.


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3419 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15238 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 15):
Why not open Alaska and use the 717 between Alaska and a left coast location.

Because the only viable WN station would be ANC and that is 2016nm to OAK and the 717 doesn't have the legs. I don't see them stopping in SEA.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3813 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15011 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
I've been waiting patiently (well, for me anyway) to see if/when SAN is going to see any ATL service from WN/FL and the chances seem to be getting slimmer with each passing month. I think there are a lot of other WN cities out west here in the same boat, such as PDX, SNA, ABQ, SLC, SAT, SMF, ELP, etc

Minor correction: FL serves SAT-ATL and has for a few years now. (I believe the current service is 3 times daily)

LoneStarMike


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32731 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 7):
As for MIA, it maybe a different case since they have a big hub/focus city at FLL, and want pax supporting the nonstops out of FLL. i.e. pax support XXX-FLL and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-MIA, and similarly not keep SRQ so that pax support XXX-TPA and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-SRQ. I'm guessing FL's IAD-ATL was dropped but DCA-ATL will stay, and anyways on IAD-ATL there was DL and UA flying the same route. IAD itself might stay in some form.

MIA and WN were pretty close to a deal. WN wanted in at MIA; but MIA refused to go as low as WN wanted on usage fees, so WN balked. If MIA wants WN/B6/etc., it needs to create a budget terminal.



a.
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2895 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14613 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 16):
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."
This is good to hear, and a bit of a relief considering how much F9 has cut recently. Before the merger I think that FL's MKE operation topped out at about 50 flight per day. Does anyone know how many total flights WN/FL will have from MKE come this fall and if there will be any overlap left?

I believe WN FL will be exactly 50 this fall. I would guess that's where his number is coming from.
IIRC they are at a combined 58 flights at the summer peak.

As far as overlap, come fall from MKE:

LGA 2x WN and 3x FL
BWI 3x WN and 1x FL
MCO 1x WN and 2x FL

At least for fall, SEA, LAX, LAS, PHX and DEN are 100% WN. TPA and FLL are 100% FL. Who knows what the winter schedule will bring.


I think the only overlap markets are LGA, BWI and MCO. MKE-BWI is 3x WN and 1x FL. MKE-LGA is 2x WN and 3x FL.


User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4782 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14495 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
SAN is shrinking ??? I've seen WN check-in lines so long they were blocking the UA TSA vestibule.

Shrinking must have suddenly been revised to mean "more passengers than *ever.*"

Yes, WN has been decreasing the number of flights at SAN. We were up over 100 a few years ago and we now bounce around from the high 80s to low 90s.

Terminal 1 at SAN is just a horrible facility. It just cannot handle the number of passengers. And the way in which WN schedules their flights these days, departures will be grouped together all leaving just a few minutes apart so with the spikes in departure activity you see rush hours where everyone shows up at once.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinegrain From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14416 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10):
Nothing needs to be changed. WN can out source any station that is under 7 flights a day. CRP for example could be out sourced right now. Out of good will WN has not yet.

Not to nit pick, but the number is 12 flights, and they cant outsource a station that was being serviced before the ratification of the latest contract.


25 flyguy1 : I was thinking about this recently, would WN ever consider JFK? Under normal circumstances, or likely if AA merges, thus freeing slots?
26 Atrude777 : Ahh that has changed then since I left WN. Thanks for that update! Absolutely, they would consider it, and if they see a way to make JFK work to thei
27 joeman : So the a.netter consensus is that CLE will eventually be served by 4 domestic carriers with flights to only their hub cities...nice
28 IndianicWorld : What value was FL to WN?? All they seem to be doing is getting rid of what they had (routes, aircraft etc.) and following on with their own strategy.
29 Atrude777 : LGA/DCA Slots Access to ATL International Capability WN could not grow quickly enough in the time span they wanted to be able to do this. In addition
30 catiii : Totally agree. It's almost like instead of viewing the ATL hub and FL network as synergies, the WN view is that they bought a bunch of airplanes to i
31 zippyjet : I'm still hoping we WN/FL and Metro Dade (operating authority of MIA) will have a meeting of the minds and make a deal. WN service in MIA makes sense
32 jporterfi : I just wish that WN would figure out a way to codeshare with FL while they continue the process of repainting planes, and then once they repaint enoug
33 Post contains images SANFan : In addition to the general decrease in flights in the last few years, WN's monthly pax counts have decreased EVERY month between July 2011 and Januar
34 enilria : I don't think FL likes long-haul much these days AND I'm not sure without a traditional hub you can make those markets work on basically local only a
35 Post contains images point2point : Without the "merger" WN would not have been able to knock out a lot of seats from the marketplace.
36 asteriskceo : Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but can WN employees non-rev on FL the same way they do on their own metal, yet?
37 Atrude777 : WN Employees may non rev on FL Birds for free, unlimited anytime, and they are boarded by seniority on FL Metal (going behind FL Employees but above
38 USAIRWAYS321 : Except that they won't try to operate anything other than 737s, or sustain an ATL hub...
39 United_fan : They offer ROC-TPA,MCO and RSW n/s. On 717's
40 ikramerica : WN+FL reminds me a lot of when AA took over AirCal, then RenoAir. "Integrate" became "dismantle" and eventually, little if any of the route network re
41 billreid : Absolutely correct. If I were the DOJ, I would be considering a multi-billion dollar suit against WN for filing a growth merger approval document. Ei
42 aviationbuff08 : I agree with you. All the ATL passengers were so interested in Lower fares, the joke is on you as fares have done nothing but go up in ATL since WN t
43 ikramerica : Yep. Wasn't aware they sold the merger as "growth" to the anti-trust watchdogs. WN never planned on growing with FL, but I am surprised just how much
44 Cubsrule : How do you know that? Do you doubt that WN makes money against AA/UA in Chicago, UA in Houston, AA in Dallas, or AA/UA/sometimes DL in Los Angeles?
45 enilria : I've said since day one that this merger was going to be the most damaging for competition in this country. The legacies don't really battle on price
46 Atrude777 : Wrong. Just...wrong. You're hatred of WN just spews through that you don't look back and realize what you're saying has to be reflected on other carr
47 bobbypsp : My gut says WN/FL will still have a huge presence at ATL. I understand how the current FL model of "hubbing" is critical to its success until final in
48 slcdeltarumd11 : DL pretty much did a textbook example of how to defend a hub against WN at SLC by constant price matching and Commitment but several things worked in
49 alexinwa : What? Sorry but the ONLY market that WN has that number of dailies in SEA is to OAK, they seem to be doing just fine up here. With a number of once o
50 usflyguy : They mean total flights in a city, not a city pair.
51 Cubsrule : Didn't WN have 7 or 8 gates at SLC as recently as a couple of years ago?
52 enilria : I probably missed some you have noticed, but not many have transitioned. The problem is that DL has like 10 flights in every significant market and a
53 USAIRWAYS321 : They still have 6, according to the SLC website.
54 DeltaL1011man : Because that doesn't make it a 737. Single fleet type is what WN wants. (and personally I believe its what they all want. I don't buy into this right
55 flyiguy : You are correct, B-15,17,19,20,21&22 Currently we operate 38 flights Mon-Fri, 27 on Sat and 32 on Sun. FLY
56 Coronado : Delta is almost certain to pick up an extra 100 million in annual profits in ATL with the demise of the AirTran connecting hub operation. WN is a much
57 STT757 : Definitely, I could see WN utilizing JFK for leisure destinations to compliment the more business oriented flights from EWR and LGA. JFK-Florida, Las
58 FL787 : I don't see it. B6 would dominate them in every way especially on the Caribbean routes. They have the lower costs, better product, and are more known
59 SANFan : So SLC could easily see close to the doubling of WN service with their current real estate there -- including perhaps service to SAN. I'm not going t
60 United_fan : I noticed FL recently changed most of the flight numbers in/out of ROC..
61 Mcdu : If MIA can generate the revenues they require without lowering themselves to rates that attract WN then why should they? A low cost terminal would ha
62 Atrude777 : and they did! Thus why they shut down MIA as a station. Alex
63 Flytravel : I could see WN re-considering MIA at a later point. WN still hasn't fully established itself in ATL fully, let alone markets like CLT. Since WN wants
64 Lambertman : There isn't enough traffic in Salt Lake for Southwest to consider it an expansion priority, especially when it has such large operations in Phoenix a
65 DeltaL1011man : Lol, Southwest bought Morris for its SLC hub. They didn't expand but have been cutting flights(well they did cut flights) That is what he is talking
66 Mcdu : And yet the sun still came up and the citizens of MIA are able to travel throughout the world. The premise that an airport NEEDS WN is overblown by m
67 enilria : I assume you meant to also exclude MKE. Good summary, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first time they have operated from a mega-hub
68 Atrude777 : No I did not. I thought about it, but when you specified "outside of MCO and ATL"..I included MKE. Alex
69 Atrude777 : No...here is the difference. Miami already HAD a LCC-Air Tran. Now that a LCC is leaving MIA...we'll see how much of an effect Air Tran had on MIA, i
70 Lambertman : Southwest bought Morris Air because of fleet commonality, the opportunity to eliminate a competitor, and strengthen its position on the west coast. T
71 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : *sigh* why do you think that was? vs the expanding of PHX,LAX,DEN,STL? hint in SLC they were getting their butt kicked. Where did Morris fly to the w
72 Lambertman : My original premise was that Delta hasn't ever had to "fend off" Southwest, quite simply because there's never been a need to. Southwest, as you know
73 MSPNWA : I'm sure the goal for WN is to eventually whittle away at DL's local market share. FL's ATL traffic is 35% local, so no matter who is going up agains
74 DeltaL1011man : *sigh* The point is WN *normally* comes in and gets the local market due to its low fares, UNLESS in the case of SLC the legacy is willing to fight f
75 Cubsrule : I guess I don't really understand how there was room to stimulate when KN was already there. Wasn't the stimulation already done? Same deal in ATL -
76 MSPNWA : SLC has some of the lowest fares in the country for a fortress hub. Combine that with the small SLC local market, and it wouldn't surprise me if WN i
77 Post contains links delta2ual : He's happy delaying the merger because he likes the bag fees! LOL http://www.ajc.com/business/southwes...294.html?cxtype=rss_business_87628
78 commavia : ... and I think that tells as everything we ever needed to know about the real position of Southwest (the valiant "consumer savior" of P.R. lore) whe
79 enilria : If you are defining MKE as P2P, there are more MKE routes than that. Look at ATL-JAX. The local market is like 300 pax/day. There are 10 DL flights a
80 FlyPNS1 : I might note that in January of 2002, Delta (and its connection carriers) enplaned 523,000 passengers at SLC while WN enplaned 78,000. A decade later
81 Atrude777 : No..the discussion was Florida P2P routes that did not involve MCO or ATL which you stated. So I took the time to find out how much was left that did
82 bobnwa : And what would WN gain by going to JFK? They certainly would not fly JFK to anywhere in Europe or to.the far east. That isn,t a valid speculation.
83 mcg : "Bags fly free" is a really powerful marketing message. It might be worth the foregone checked baggage fees.
84 FlyPNS1 : There's pretty high frequency in many of the DEN markets too because of F9 and UA. Take a look at MSP-DEN, SLC-DEN, PHX-DEN, SFO-DEN, etc. All of the
85 SkyCub : While I will give you that Morris did have a centralized base of operations in SLC, their route system was not based solely around SLC. Morris also f
86 commavia : That's certainly the line Southwest has been giving Wall Street and shareholders for years. I don't think it is going to cut it forever. Have you see
87 MaverickM11 : WN's bags-fly-free is without a doubt revenue negative. If it was so great it'd be rolled out across the FL network on day one of the merger.
88 gigneil : This is without a doubt one of the worst mergers in modern history. NS
89 OzarkD9S : Well I've been screwed twice this year: 1) I could have earned RR points for using TurboTax which I did, but they notified me of the promotion 5 days
90 mcg : "Bags Fly Free" is undoubtedly very expensive, but it's really powerful. In three words it describes exactly why WN is different and better than all
91 commavia : A powerful brand association - yes. But I don't believe that powerful brand association justifies the revenue being left on the table. Different, per
92 drerx7 : Not so sure that is standard by which I would measure the success of bags fly free. I'm also not so sure that the benefits of that at WN is accuratel
93 AS739BSI : And what has happened to Netflix recently after their fiasco? Opening that can of worms sure would bring in revenue on one side, but then you might l
94 planespotting : I understand that the DSM circumstances seem odd, but the main thing to remember is that this area is underserved and overpriced for a metro area wit
95 Post contains images enilria : OK, got it. That's the point. "among the 3-4 carriers that serve them". When 10 flights are on one airline that airline is in a nearly unassailable p
96 GentFromAlaska : If you ever find yourself flying HA I think you would add a fourth. People also forget WN has the optional $10 advance boarding group assignment as a
97 kcrwflyer : Trust me, I get all of that. I don't disagree with any of it. BUT, given the circumstances, I don't feel they should have kept WN. FL couldn't make M
98 MaverickM11 : I don't know why you'd measure it in any way other than increased revenue. If it's not measurable why even say it's good, bad, or otherwise? Why woul
99 FlyPNS1 : That's driven by DL continually cutting capacity to drive RASM up. DL has been more aggressive than most this winter with capacity cuts and it has pa
100 SANFan : What a great analogy! (I just read another article about NF and they are STILL suffering big-time from last year's stupid decisions!) bb
101 Silver1SWA : This argument overlooks the fact that AirTran needed bag fees to cover their rising costs. The bag fees became an important part of their equation. F
102 planespotting : I understand that too - the main problem is that locally, it didn't seem like AirTran ever tried to be successful. Before they started mainline to MK
103 enilria : We don't have the data yet, but if domestic PRASM is up that much it pretty much has to be driven by ATL. ATL is as big as all their other domestic o
104 dbo861 : When is WN supposed to extend their schedule beyond Nov 2? Maybe we'll see some of these "radical" changes then.
105 sdoyon : Was originally going to be May 21st, but it has since been moved to June 4th.
106 bjorn14 : Huh? WN has higher (at least employee) costs than FL. I believe Kelly knows WN is losing money in the trade off between LF and bag fees but has chose
107 Cubsrule : I don't understand. Kelly has said publicly that PRASM improvements that WN saw around the time that other carriers instituted bag fees were related
108 MSPNWA : Since the FL operation at ATL is still nearly fully intact, I don't see the evidence for a correlation. Domestically, three DL hubs were highlighted
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