ChicagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 247 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 31521 times:
Tobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 643 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 31306 times:
Sad to hear.
All of Bhoja Air 737-200s (different sources give different numbers) once belonged to British Airways. The a/c posted above (AP-BEP) cannot be the frame that crashed, as it was sold to Merpati and later scrapped.
[Edited 2012-04-20 07:51:29]
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
Tobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 643 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 31208 times:
Quoting cabso1 (Reply 5): Reports are that this was the inaugural flight
Oh, than the a/c involved seems to be LN 635, which has been delivered to Bhoja Air only quite recently. Originally delivered to BA in 1980 with reg G-BGDD.
[Edited 2012-04-20 07:55:19]
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 30239 times:
Quoting liquidair (Reply 7): First images show a gruesome scene.
Not sure about the images I'm receiving in my TV, they show a wreckage in daylight time and seconds later other images in night time... can not be even sure if I'm watching the same crash at different times or totally different crashes.
Also I see a blue T-tail section in the images, did this airline has any T-tailed airplane ??
KHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1609 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 30043 times:
Quoting mjabbasi (Reply 8): My friend who works at KHI airport saw it take off and says it was AP-BKD. Lightening strike is being blamed as the cause of the crash.
Can lightening itself solely bring down an aircraft?
Aircraft are often struck by lightening,infact i rememeber there was one event at LHR involving an EK plane not too long which and it was even captured on video. I believe aircraft are designed to withstand lighening strikes.
Lets wait and see what details appear as in most cases its a sequence of events that cause a crash - not one.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10463 posts, RR: 20 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 29687 times:
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 4): The a/c posted above (AP-BEP) cannot be the frame that crashed, as it was sold to Merpati and later scrapped.
The poster didn't say that was the frame that crashed, he said it was the only Bhoja Air photo in the a.net database.
cbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1506 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 29487 times:
Quoting T8KE0FF (Reply 12): What sad news. How come there were 9 crew onboard?! That's quite a lot for a domestic hop on a 732, is it not?
Well, if it was the inaugural flight, as suggested above, then their could very well have been some crew training on the flight! The flight deck might have had some training personal in the jumpseats and their might have been extra flight attendants on board doing training as well!
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 10): Can lightening itself solely bring down an aircraft?
In short, no lightning can't really bring down an aircraft! They are designed to take the lightning strike and discharge the electricity out the static wicks on the wings and tail. However, if their was a thunderstorm in the area, then their are other hazards that have to be looked at, including wind shear, micro bursts, or overall low cloud layers!
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10682 posts, RR: 100 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 28383 times:
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 10): Can lightening itself solely bring down an aircraft?
Yes, and has done so before. However, if properly maintained, the lightning protection system would preserve the airframe.
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 14): In short, no lightning can't really bring down an aircraft! They are designed to take the lightning strike and discharge the electricity out the static wicks on the wings and tail.
Lightning shouldn't be able to bring down an aircraft with a fully functioning lightning protection system. If there were few broken grounding wires (there is always redundancy). Also, untreated corrosion can make the system's effectiveness too low to save the airframe or electronics.
About every 3 to 5 years, an airframe without proper maintenance oversight is lost to lightning. The last I'm aware of was a Colombia flight in 2010 (note: I'm going from memory). Should this happen? Was it definitively the cause of the crash? However, considering the current regulatory environment in Pakistan, should it be suspected?
T8KE0FF From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 400 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 28376 times:
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 14): Well, if it was the inaugural flight, as suggested above, then their could very well have been some crew training on the flight! The flight deck might have had some training personal in the jumpseats and their might have been extra flight attendants on board doing training as well!
bueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 537 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 28190 times:
Quoting nema (Reply 15): Whats more the BBC news article states that Last July, an Airbus A321 crashed as it was about to land in Islamabad, killing all 152 people on board. Same approach?
Totally different situations... The Air Blue A321 flew towards a mountain, off the path they were cleared to fly, and ignored calls from ATC and multiple cockpit alarms before crashing into terrain. It wasn't even on approach to a runway, wheras this 732 seemed to have been so I don't think we can blame the airport approach for this accident.
It's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. It seems pretty clear that this was a B732, although it does have to be said that the CNN article manages to cite an irrelevant 1950s Comet crash in their article. What poor journalism.
Condolences to those that were lost. The first major tragedy of 2012 (with more than 50 fatalities), and hopefully the last.
WestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1263 posts, RR: 7 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 23929 times:
Bhoja Air has posted a passenger list on their home page encouraging family members to contact given emergency numbers, which I have never seen an airline do before.
It seems that there are 121 passengers on the list, as opposed to the previously reported 118. Very sad.
cbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1506 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 23485 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16): Lightning shouldn't be able to bring down an aircraft with a fully functioning lightning protection system. If there were few broken grounding wires (there is always redundancy). Also, untreated corrosion can make the system's effectiveness too low to save the airframe or electronics.
About every 3 to 5 years, an airframe without proper maintenance oversight is lost to lightning. The last I'm aware of was a Colombia flight in 2010 (note: I'm going from memory). Should this happen? Was it definitively the cause of the crash? However, considering the current regulatory environment in Pakistan, should it be suspected?
Well that is true, however, freak occurrences can and do happen! I can say with confidence that airplane around the world get struck everyday by lightning with no issues what so ever! I have been struck numerous times by lightning in my career with little or no affect and often don't even realize it until I have landed and performed the post flight inspection! That said, you are correct that this is in Pakistan, where the safety standards might not be up to par with most countries. I would think though, if the plane was just delivered, that a close maintenance inspection would have been completed prior to entering service! Then again, who am I kidding?
I did get a kick out of your smiley face explanation, funniest thing I have seen all day!
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23): Bhoja Air has posted a passenger list on their home page encouraging family members to contact given emergency numbers, which I have never seen an airline do before.
Seems a bit tasteless to me! You would think they would be able to look up passenger information and start informing the families that way, instead of posting the deceased on their web site.
HOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2668 posts, RR: 54 Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 24669 times:
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Incredibly sad news. My thoughts are with the families, relatives and friends of those involved. Rest in peace to everyone that was on board.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23): Bhoja Air has posted a passenger list on their home page encouraging family members to contact given emergency numbers, which I have never seen an airline do before.
It seems that there are 121 passengers on the list, as opposed to the previously reported 118. Very sad.
Singapore Airlines did the same back when SQ006 crashed several years ago:
flylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 721 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22242 times:
I saw this reported through My Verizon. The photo above the headline was of a Qantas A380. The only hint in the headline that it was likely not an A380 was that there we 127 on board.
ukair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20733 times:
Why did the flight crew try to land in these conditions? If the conditions where below minimums they should have diverted to a safer airport. Sorry to be blunt but I think it needs to be said.
RIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 773 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15679 times:
I am surprised to see that so far there are only 33 postings regarding this major air crash. Hardly any speculation, except the weather.
RIP to pax and crew.
From what I understand Air Blue was conducting a circling approach to runway 12, they initially made an instrument approach to runways 30, got visual, and flew a visual left circuit for runway 12. The exceeded the circuit area considerably, and hit terrain about 7 nm (around 13 km) north of the airport. They have since raised the minimum circling height by 250 ft on that approach for some aircraft.
Quoting ukair (Reply 30): Why did the flight crew try to land in these conditions? If the conditions where below minimums they should have diverted to a safer airport.
The Wx conditions at the time we well inside the minimum for the ILS, 300' cloud base and 1200 m visibility. The reported conditions at the time put the cloud base at 10,000 ft, with some areas of scattered could at 2500’, and visibility of 3000m.
It is worth noting that the airport elevation is around 1700', and the aircraft it would appear from initial reports has come down slightly off the approach path for runway 30, around 3 nm from the airport. They should have been around 1000' at that stage. There was no larger difference in the QNH from 1013, I am at a loss to explain why they would have been so low that far out.
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francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12132 times:
I've found this link of a local forum where someone posted miscellaneous pics of Bhoja Air and it's crew in better days.
I hesitated in posting it as it also contains a list of the passengers/victims...
sankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1298 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10735 times:
Reports now coming in that the pilots called in a Mayday, saying the engine / wing was on fire before the fuel tanks apparently exploded. This is as per ATC.
bueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 537 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10361 times:
Quoting 76er (Reply 41): Which is what eyewitnesses report at just about every crash...
You can't trust eyewitnesses who don't know what they're looking at - practically every accident in the history of aviation has had eyewitnesses saying it was "on fire in the air".
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10082 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 40): I've found this link of a local forum where someone posted miscellaneous pics of Bhoja Air and it's crew in better days.
I hesitated in posting it as it also contains a list of the passengers/victims...
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7694 posts, RR: 5 Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9082 times:
It appears that the crash was probably caused by the plane flying into a microburst during that thunderstorm and the pilots did not properly respond to the situation.
rcair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 920 posts, RR: 25 Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8068 times:
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Quoting RayChuang (Reply 46): It appears that the crash was probably caused by the plane flying into a microburst during that thunderstorm and the pilots did not properly respond to the situation.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6623 posts, RR: 17 Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7864 times:
Quoting cabso1 (Reply 5): Reports are that this was the inaugural flight and that there are no survivors.
Bhoja restarted operations on 6 March when one of their 732s operated KHI-LHE (B4 115). It had previously ceased operations in 2000 due to financial difficulties.
Quoting mjabbasi (Reply 8): My friend who works at KHI airport saw it take off and says it was AP-BKD.
"Today’s Bhoja Air crash in Pakistan in which 127 people lost their lives involved former British Airways Boeing 737-236ADV G-BKYI."
Quoting rj777 (Reply 21): The PRINT article is referencing a 737-200, but the VIDEO is saying an Airbus A321. Same news outlet. "
Bhoja Air operated four Boeing 737 236s:
AP-AKB CN 21793. LN 635. Delivered as G-BGDD to British Airways in February '80 and then as ZS-NNG to Comair in September '95 returning to BA livery after Comair was appointed a British Airways franchise operator in October '96. Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKC CN 23167. LN 1074. Delivered as G-BYYI to British Airways in January '85 and then as ZS-OLB to Comair dba British Airways in June '99 . Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKD CN 23163. LN 1058. Delivered as G-BKYE to British Airways in November '80 and then as ZS-OLA to Comair dba British Airways in April '99 . Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKE CN 21797. LN 653. Delivered as G-BGDH to British Airways in April '80 and then as ZS-NNH to Comair in September '95 returning to BA livery )after Comair was appointed a British Airways franchise operator in October '96. Bhoja Air leased January '12.
abnormal From UK - England, joined Aug 2007, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7626 times:
Quoting RIXrat (Reply 34): I am surprised to see that so far there are only 33 postings regarding this major air crash. Hardly any speculation, except the weather.
Not enough specific or certain information to discuss and as the accident occurred in Pakistan, there may never be a full accident investigation report made available to the public.
As for myself, I'm kind of interested in the fact that this was an inaugural flight for a relatively new operator and as such there may have been a training/qualification aspect to it. Does the fact that a flight is a training flight affect crew judgement and affect decision making? If it turns out in this case that the weather at destination would normally have resulted in using an alternate, did the training aspect of this flight affected that decision? It wouldn't be the first time if it had.
YYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7270 times:
Quoting liquidair (Reply 45): If combined with a lightning strike, could that suggest fuel ignition like Pan Am 214? I know it's just speculation, but sounds similar.we have systems to prevent that happening now, right?
Re all the lightning speculation: not that this is necessarily the cause of THIS crash, but there are different types of lightning - negaitve and positive. Positive charge is far less common and apparently can be more powerful and dangerous... I have heard that "positive" lightning was blamed for the 1963 Pan Am crash, but don't know if that was ever a definitive finding.
Anyway, see the discussion of "Positive Lightning" half way down this page (Wikepedia, I know, but it was what my quick search found):
The Wickipedia page mentions that static discharge wicks may not be sufficient to protect an aircraft in the event of a positive charge. The statement references this link:
Contains a good description of the static wick, but nothing about positive lightning.
If you want to know all about lightning and aircraft, search "lightning" and specify Tech/Ops - you will get thousands of hits, in dozens of threads about the technology, operational matters, composite aircraft, etc. etc. from people who actually know a little about it.
Given that there was a severe thunderstorm near the airport at the time of the crash, that's why I think the wind shear from a "microburst" may have caused the plane to suddenly lose altitude and/or lose control. We'll find out when then FDR and CVR are analyzed from the crashed plane.
I'm sorry - with all due respect, this article reads like speculation to me. Unfortunately, I think we will need to wait and given the location, I'm not highly confident that it will be well investigated or reported.
Ljungdahl From Sweden, joined Apr 2002, 900 posts, RR: 40 Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 6505 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 48): Bhoja Air operated four Boeing 737 236s:
AP-AKB CN 21793. LN 635. Delivered as G-BGDD to British Airways in February '80 and then as ZS-NNG to Comair in September '95 returning to BA livery after Comair was appointed a British Airways franchise operator in October '96. Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKC CN 23167. LN 1074. Delivered as G-BYYI to British Airways in January '85 and then as ZS-OLB to Comair dba British Airways in June '99 . Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKD CN 23163. LN 1058. Delivered as G-BKYE to British Airways in November '80 and then as ZS-OLA to Comair dba British Airways in April '99 . Bhoja Air leased January '12.
AP-AKE CN 21797. LN 653. Delivered as G-BGDH to British Airways in April '80 and then as ZS-NNH to Comair in September '95 returning to BA livery )after Comair was appointed a British Airways franchise operator in October '96. Bhoja Air leased January '12.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3313 times:
Quoting mjabbasi (Reply 8): My friend who works at KHI airport saw it take off and says it was AP-BKD. Lightening strike is being blamed as the cause of the crash.
BBC World news are currently reporting that the a/c exploded in the air. Not sure of the provenance of this report.
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 10): Can lightening itself solely bring down an aircraft?
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 14): Quoting KHI747 (Reply 10):
Can lightening itself solely bring down an aircraft?
In short, no lightning can't really bring down an aircraft! They are designed to take the lightning strike and discharge the electricity out the static wicks on the wings and tail. However, if their was a thunderstorm in the area, then their are other hazards that have to be looked at, including wind shear, micro bursts, or overall low cloud layers!
The outcome of this accident was to start using cover gases or air circulation in fuel tanks.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16): Yes, and has done so before. However, if properly maintained, the lightning protection system would preserve the airframe.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2293 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 59): Whats the preliminary report stating officially.......
No preliminary report has been released yet. Investigators seem to be suggesting that it's probably a technical malfunction caused by poor maintenance, but the CAA is suggesting weather and pilot error as more likely causes.
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