Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AA To Finally Serve TLV?  
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 385 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10064 times:

Not off topic, but if this merger hooplah goes through between US & AA, would we lose TLV service? AA had the opportunity when it bought TW to serve TLV, but because of the politically charged reasons, it would cost AA a small fortune to compensate the TW - TLV staff they left stranded. Is this something Doug Parker could actually negotiate AA into the TLV market, giving AA their first Middle East city?

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10077 times:

Bankruptcy will likely dismiss or dramaticly reduce (and pay off) AMR's debts to Israel, and leave AA free to serve TLV in any scenario.


a.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9996 times:

Actually US BK Court is not the arena to discharge a foreign court award. No US court can reverse a Israeli judgement.

Anyhow, very early in the BK process (matter of fact the 2nd hearing after the judge was confirmed) AA asked for and received permission to full-fill all pre-BK obligations owed to foreign parties. AA was very concerned that its operations could be compromised if it was unable to meet its obligations including payment of vendors, foreign taxes, and other fees for which it was already some $250mil in arrears at time of filing.

The Israeli situation will hang over AA until it is settled in Israel.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9894 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Actually US BK Court is not the arena to discharge a foreign court award. No US court can reverse a Israeli judgement.

U.S. Bankruptcy courts absolutely can discharge foreign debt. I don't know the nature of this debt; if it's a court judgment award, then, yes, that's not going to happen. But if AA really wants in on Israel, I'm pretty sure AA and Israel can reach a mutually beneficial solution.



a.
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9852 times:

if they do serve TLV I hope its nonstop from ORD and not JFK as the latter has enough capacity serving the route as it is.

with a more large hub structure at ORD connecting all of USA and Canada + most of all no current nonstop service to TLV out of ORD, the potential I feel is greater than versus JFK.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9424 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9845 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):

unless Israel has become part of the US, AMR will still owe that money, and all of it, and any money owed to any foreign parties. US bankruptcy is just that, US. The only way AA gets out of it is if they get a deal with Israel. US government has nothing to do with it.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):

If a US/AA merger goes down you can expect the debt will be paid. Parker is out there for sure but he isn't nearly as....questionable....as the people in AA's HQ.



yep.
User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 9726 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Bankruptcy will likely dismiss or dramaticly reduce (and pay off) AMR's debts to Israel, and leave AA free to serve TLV in any scenario.

Absolutely wrong. Shalom!


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 9668 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
U.S. Bankruptcy courts absolutely can discharge foreign debt

In theory, I guess so.

And Israel is still free to impound a plane when AA resumes service (if they ever do), since the obligations were incurred in Isreal, Israel can take the means to collect the debt since their laws apply in their country.

So AA will have to settle if they return to TLV.

I think the only real viable route for AA is from JFK that being said.

[Edited 2012-04-21 01:22:16]

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 9642 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
In theory, I guess so.

And Israel is still free to impound a plane when AA resumes service (if they ever do), since the obligations were incurred in Isreal, Israel can take the means to collect the debt since their laws apply in their country.

So AA will have to settle if they return to TLV.

I think the only real viable route for AA is from JFK that being said.
PHL-TLV is said to be US' most profitable route...

If a combined US/AA added additional service to TLV it would be from MIA not from JFK IMHO

[Edited 2012-04-21 01:36:45]

User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6220 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 23 hours ago) and read 9614 times:

Well the route at the momen for USt is through PHL, and has thus far proved viable. Should a merger happen I would assume the airlne would contnue it's operationsa at TLV since it is a profitable station. I dont know how all the cards would stack up in the event of merger, but I doubt they would move the flight to JFK. Yes NYC has impressive numbers to TLv you also have multiple flghts a day on LY, DL, UA (out of ewr)- all of of who have been serving the market for years. Let's not forget the one stop option on Euro carriers.


Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 23 hours ago) and read 9577 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):

unless Israel has become part of the US, AMR will still owe that money, and all of it, and any money owed to any foreign parties. US bankruptcy is just that, US. The only way AA gets out of it is if they get a deal with Israel. US government has nothing to do with it.

Ever hear of Google? A simple Google search will show that U.S. bankruptcy discharges foreign debt. So you are absolutely wrong.

If AMR owes Israel a debt, it's probably settled or discharged.

If Israel has a court judgment against AMR (in other words, its not debt), it's not.

But the reality is this: if AMR wants to fly to Israel - and Israel is a country that is always desperate for new airline links - AMR and Israel will work to find an amicable solution.

[Edited 2012-04-21 01:44:16]


a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9424 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 22 hours ago) and read 9419 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

Ever hear of Google? A simple Google search will show that U.S. bankruptcy discharges foreign debt. So you are absolutely wrong.

So maybe before you tell me I'm wrong you learn about things.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

If Israel has a court judgment against AMR (in other words, its not debt), it's not.

So wait. your telling me to use google, and that I am wrong, when you have no idea what your talking about? Cool, because it is a court judgement. Also I'm not sure how its debt? It was employee benefits that TWA stopped paying when they pulled out of TLV. When AA bought the TWA assets the Israel courts ruled that AA must pay the money (which i believe is collecting interest). So not sure what else one could call it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

But the reality is this: if AMR wants to fly to Israel - and Israel is a country that is always desperate for new airline links - AMR and Israel will work to find an amicable solution.

This is true, very easy. AMR pays up or no fly. They will do so if they want to, or keep flying in a merger case, when they are ready. IIRC it was something like 50M so its not like its a big deal. They are just being typical AA about it.

Oh and one more thing. MAH, think about it this way, If TWA couldn't dump it in their BK what gives you the idea AA could?



yep.
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 9275 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

If Israel has a court judgment against AMR (in other words, its not debt), it's not.

So wait. your telling me to use google, and that I am wrong, when you have no idea what your talking about? Cool, because it is a court judgement. Also I'm not sure how its debt? It was employee benefits that TWA stopped paying when they pulled out of TLV. When AA bought the TWA assets the Israel courts ruled that AA must pay the money (which i believe is collecting interest). So not sure what else one could call it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):

But the reality is this: if AMR wants to fly to Israel - and Israel is a country that is always desperate for new airline links - AMR and Israel will work to find an amicable solution.

This is true, very easy. AMR pays up or no fly. They will do so if they want to, or keep flying in a merger case, when they are ready. IIRC it was something like 50M so its not like its a big deal. They are just being typical AA about it.

Oh and one more thing. MAH, think about it this way, If TWA couldn't dump it in their BK what gives you the idea AA could?

Exactly. I think Israel is doing fine without AA, they have US, DL, and UA. It will be AA paying what they owe in a settlement if AA decides to return.

Of course this is a legal matter, and would have to be settled before AA can return.

Using the google, all the articles I have seen on this matter say it is 9-18 million, with interest of course.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 12):
Using the google, all the articles I have seen on this matter say it is 9-18 million, with interest of course.

You do have to wonder why for such a fairly paltry sum for an Airline as big as AA with revenues in the many many billions of dollars that they didnt just pay up and get on with life.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 9084 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
if they do serve TLV I hope its nonstop from ORD and not JFK as the latter has enough capacity serving the route as it is.

ORD has been slowly declining in number of flights at ORD, overseas and domestic, Although ORD-TLV would have little competition, unlike NYC-TLV, the fact remains ORD has not seen much love from AA in a while.

with a more large hub structure at ORD connecting all of USA and Canada + most of all no current nonstop service to TLV out of ORD, the potential I feel is greater than versus JFK.

Agreed, but MIA is a much better idea for a new US/AA. Since what I've heard is that the AA name would survive, I doubt there will be any way AA could just wash away the debt, and quite rightly so. TW owed this money, AA took them over, and absorbed that debt, they should pay it, it may become one of the things they must clear up before exiting BK.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 8):
If a combined US/AA added additional service to TLV it would be from MIA not from JFK IMHO

You beat me to it, you're right, MIA should be the next city for TLV service. If AA got themselves together long ago, and started this route, once their debt was paid, maybe they'd be doing slightly better. I know "one route doesn't make an airline profitable or not, but AA would have most likely added other spokes to the MIA hub by now too, like JNB or CPT.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 8978 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
TW owed this money, AA took them over, and absorbed that debt, they should pay it, it may become one of the things they must clear up before exiting BK.

TWA declared chapter 11, then AA purchased most of TWA's assets. AA did NOT merge with TWA absorbing all its debts and obligations.


User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 8829 times:

Does anyone have the dollar amount that the TWA TLV employees were awarded it would be interesting to know the WHOLE AMOUNT?

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 8741 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
TWA declared chapter 11, then AA purchased most of TWA's assets. AA did NOT merge with TWA absorbing all its debts and obligations

Well apparently this is one that AA does owe, at least according to an Israeli court.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 16):
Does anyone have the dollar amount that the TWA TLV employees were awarded it would be interesting to know the WHOLE AMOUNT?

I'm sure it's not worth having an aircraft seized for.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 8727 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
Well apparently this is one that AA does owe, at least according to an Israeli court.

The debts of TWA in Israel are owed by AA. In 2001 AA purchased TWA assets not a "full" merger with AA absorbing TWA's debts.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 8649 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
I think the only real viable route for AA is from JFK that being said.

Current:

PHL-TLV

Future?

MIA-TLV



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinebeeweel15 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Rumor has it that LY would be moving over to T8 here at JFK also did not AA and LY have a quiet code share agreement in place plus is it also a possibility that LY is trying to join Oneworld.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 7937 times:

A US court can discharge debts on a worldwide basis – for those debts to be collected in the US. There is no legal requirement for any foreign sovereign nation however to accept the US judgement in their territory. Its akin to a foreign court making decisions about things here domestically in the US.

If wiping foreign debt away was such an easy task without repercussions, surely AMR would be glad to do it. But its not, and AA would have to pursue actions separately under each foreign country’s laws, a very complex and time consuming process which could stall its efforts back here at home in the mean time. Hence as I stated prior to this end, in one of the earliest court hearings, AA affirmed its intent to meet its obligations overseas as it could not risk foreign authoritirs or parties maving against it if they felt AA was not going to cover its liabilities.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
TWA declared chapter 11, then AA purchased most of TWA's assets. AA did NOT merge with TWA absorbing all its debts and obligations.

Per press story at the time:

"Regulatory approval was granted Friday by the U.S. Department of Justice for Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR Corp.'s deal to pay $742 million for the airline, plus the assumption of $3.5 billion in debt."

Further, an important legal distinction is that AA became the "successor" company to TWA. This establishes a legal connection between TWA and AA. In other words, TWA did not simply disappear into the ashes as an enterprise, but its business continued operate with the same property, people and name simply under a new owner.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 16):
Does anyone have the dollar amount that the TWA TLV employees were awarded it would be interesting to know the WHOLE AMOUNT?

The initial amount was $18 million in salaries and benefits. After 10-years I'm sure the amount has morphed.
I read someplace the penalty for non payment accrued additional at $100/mo per employee per the Israel Labor Ministry judgement, but cannot personally confirm.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 7919 times:

Sorry MAH4056 you are wrong.

While a US Court can discharge claims of a Foreign Claim being collected in the US - it can't discharge a foreign claim collected ina foreign country. In this case, AA would have to file for whatever bankruptcy relief is available in Israel. For example, if AA didn't file whatever bankruptcy relief is available in every country it flies into, and the debtor is a foreign company , the debt owed by AA is not covered in the current US bankruptcy petition. Let's say the catering company in Barcelona is a Spanish owned company sending bills to the AA office in Spain - and AA owed them $10 mililion USD - that debt is not covered by the current bankruptcy petition if AA didn't file bankruptcy in Spain. If the caterer was a US company operating in Spain, it would be covered under the US case.

I know for certain that UA DL & NW didn't file bankruptcy in any foregin jurisdictions.

In this case, the Israeli court judgement is owed in Israel to an Israeli jurisdiction - so AA still owes the money. In the grand scheme of things, it was approximately $25 million USD - so AA could pay it if it wants in on Israel. But AA's lacks of knowing which markets to serve and how to compete over the last 10 years - has led it to the pathetic situation it is in today. From market leader to a subpar product - the Isarel market is served by stronger competitors of AA - DL & UA.


User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 7919 times:

Why was LY unsuccesful at MIA while LAX kept going?

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 7859 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 8):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
In theory, I guess so.

And Israel is still free to impound a plane when AA resumes service (if they ever do), since the obligations were incurred in Isreal, Israel can take the means to collect the debt since their laws apply in their country.

So AA will have to settle if they return to TLV.

I think the only real viable route for AA is from JFK that being said.
PHL-TLV is said to be US' most profitable route...

I don't doubt PHL does very well. I meant a NEW route. Sorry for the confusion.

It could be MIA. It just seems routes to TLV work best from Los Angeles and the Northeast. ATL definitely failed for DL, which is not a good sign, one of the best hubs in the world..

But we can guess and prognosticate all day.


25 LAXintl : Oh and regarding the comment above on AA-LY code-share, the parties have been unable to fully implement the 2009 agreement due to Israel having been d
26 bobnwa : What legal training or knowledge do you have to make that statement?
27 SXDFC : Although this topic is about TLV, I cant help but wonder about LIS and ATH, I'd imagine AA would still be flying into those two cities right?
28 B767300ER : As far as I am aware, and I was on the last flight of TW 85 from TLV as a F/A, there were fuel bills owed, and that was why flights 84/85 were not ref
29 jfk777 : Of Course AA absorbed some TWA debts, they had leases on TWA airplanes and TWA airport leases at all the airports they flew to.
30 ordjoe : US courts can only prevent foreign debt to be collected in the US, why would a sovereign nation be bound to us bankruptcy law, overall if AA wants TLV
31 EL-AL : First, we need to remember that what AA did was disgusting - TWA employees in Israel were fired without getting their rights according to Israeli low.
32 IndustryInsider : You're right, AA cannot codeshare on LY but LY is codesharing on AA right now.
33 washingtonian : I don't think that a merged AA-US will stop serving TLV. If anything, they will add MIA-TLV and perhaps shift PHL-TLV to JFK. AA is way overdue on MIA
34 chepos : In the event of a merger I do not see the PHL flight being shifted up to JFK, just can't see it. The current PHL flight works and as said before JFK h
35 Coronado : IF US is successful in acquiring AA,and takes on the AA brand, I am wondering if the Israeli court could extend their judgement for payment of the sev
36 HPRamper : Just more of the ad nauseum "JFK>anything else" attitude on here. Forget that JFK is slot restricted and can't handle the domestic connections nee
37 klwright69 : Probably so. Unless the debt has been settled somehow in Israel, it will still exist, unless AA completely folds. I am sure if AA and US merge, Israe
38 mogandoCI : Probably. Even in the parallel universe that they decide to call the new airline "US Airways", Israel can still legally continue the outstanding clai
39 washingtonian : The new AA management will have access to the data of how PHL-TLV is performing (or if US management takes over they will already know....). I'm sure
40 Post contains links klwright69 : Absolutely correct. Not just poor judgment but a catastrophe. When CO entered the TLV market their only US based competition was TW and Tower Air. De
41 washingtonian : Delta did operate JFK-TLV briefly before 9/11.
42 STT757 : Correct, but klwright69 stated; CO was in the TLV market before DL's first foray into the US-TLV market. CO launched EWR-TLV in 1999, two years befor
43 Post contains links LAXintl : Israel is a market AA missed the boat with..... Back in 2006 Larry Kellner said TLV was CO's strongest market -- "Of the 230 destinations that Contine
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Finally: El Al To Being MIA-TLV Non-stop Service posted Sat Jan 7 2006 04:31:32 by MAH4546
AA To Serve STL-HOU Again posted Fri Aug 5 2005 05:45:29 by FlewGSW
Finally! AA To Launch MIA-BDA posted Fri May 7 2004 19:11:07 by MAH4546
AA To Serve Laxsal posted Mon Feb 23 2004 15:58:14 by Plaaneboy
AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions... posted Thu Mar 22 2012 04:53:21 by GEN2STEW
AA To Launch Double-daily MIA-LAX 777 Service posted Sun Mar 11 2012 17:23:21 by MAH4546
AA To Launch Miami-Seattle posted Sun Mar 11 2012 05:50:10 by MAH4546
AA To Introduce DCA-LAX posted Tue Feb 28 2012 18:40:58 by miaami
AA To Cut ATRs From MIA posted Fri Feb 24 2012 17:45:32 by deltaffindfw
AA To Offer Free Booze In Coach posted Fri Feb 17 2012 09:05:07 by bastew