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Star Alliance In Trouble?  
User currently offlineaviacsa55 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18885 times:

When I was checking Wikipedia, it has been noticed that BD left Star Alliance for the merger of British Airways. Is Star Alliance really having trouble with there members because for the first time ever, it already lost 3 members in the same year, 2012. CO merged and ceased operations to UA, which is also a member, JK collapsed, thanks to QR, and BD officially left the alliance when they are merging operations with BA. Have any questions or something tell me, please reply.

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18870 times:

Not to nitpick, but...

Quoting aviacsa55 (Thread starter):
it already lost 3 members in the same year, 2012. CO merged and ceased operations to UA,

That's only really losing a member in name - the benefits have remained.

Quoting aviacsa55 (Thread starter):
JK collapsed, thanks to QR,

QR was most definitely not at fault.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18451 times:

I have commented about this as well. Star could lose US, TAM and TAP this year.

SAS will be in play as the Norwegian and Swedish governments have parliamentary mandates to sell their shares of the airline. I would absolutely love to see them under AY ownership, but I don't think AY could afford it.

I could also see a scenerio where QF buys a large, but not majority share of NZ.

[Edited 2012-04-21 14:40:02]


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26999 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18425 times:

But then again new airlines are joining so its not all bad .

User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5580 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 18096 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 2):
I could also see a scenerio where QF buys a large, but not majority share of NZ.

That one wouldn't happen. I'm almost certain that competition authorities on both sides of the ditch would block it.

What is more (/most) likely is that there is some merger/buyout/whatever between NZ and VA creating two airlines in the region: QF/JQ and NZ/VA.



Just to give some perspective: less than 12 months ago people were asking whether OW were in trouble given that all of its members except CX (and BA - all though they seemed to get forgotten) were loosing money.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17858 times:

Alright, the Star Alliance is not in trouble in any means. They are the largest alliance in the world, they can afford to
"loose" members in one year.

CO was not really lost, if anything CO+UA merging was better for the alliance than anything else. BD and JK weren't the most important members in the alliance, not to undermine their role but still.

The alliance has 25 Members with 5 members joining within one year time. (it may be 27 with 3 joining because I'm not sure if TA and AV are in the alliance yet)

The alliance would be in "trouble" if the whole LH Group, UA, SQ, and NH suddenly left or declared bankruptcy (Chapter 7 or the equivalent)

So overall, *A is still going to the most powerful alliance in the world for awhile.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17820 times:

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 5):

Just because they have lots does not mean they are more powerful


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3025 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17820 times:

Looks like BMI have now officially left Star Alliance, I thought they would remain a member until when the BMI timetable officially ends in October, but this doesn't appear to the case.

http://www.staralliance.com/en/press/bmi-removal-prp/

I wonder how this will effect LHR as a Star Alliance hub? While there are many SA carriers operating there, there is now no resident airline... Is it likely we might see some routes have their aircraft size downgraded, by these airlines, as there will not be as much feeder traffic?

On a seperate note, if the US Airways and American Airlines merger goes through, we could potentially see another loss to Star Alliance. I am sure One World will do all in it's power to maintain a member in North America.

While US might not be as important to Star Alliance as the likes UA/CO, the airline has a huge presence on the East Coast of the USA, and this is likely to have an impact on feeder traffic to other Star Alliance carriers.


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17698 times:

Airlines come and go, BD and JK were minor players in the grand scheme, If star lost LH, NH! UA NZ SQ Or TG then that would be far worse.

User currently onlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 599 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17656 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
That's only really losing a member in name - the benefits have remained.

   Star has only really "lost" the separate entity that is Continental. They haven't lost any destinations or benefits as a result of that - CO is just part of UA now.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 5):
The alliance would be in "trouble" if the whole LH Group, UA, SQ, and NH suddenly left or declared bankruptcy (Chapter 7 or the equivalent)

   These are the major alliance players. Members like Spanair, not to make light of their bankruptcy or anything, are really only minor players. Spanair provided a strong intra-Spain and intra-Europe network, but their departure hasn't really changed much, other than the options that Spain-based flyers had previously. Star still remains strong in Europe with airlines like LH, TP, OS, SK, LX.

Star is probably the strongest alliance in terms of route network and the amount of high-quality carriers that are members. An alliance with 25 member carriers, 5 pending members, and 1250+ destinations in 189 countries is hardly "in trouble."



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17513 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 6):

Technically yes they are more powerful if they have a fleet of 400; compared to a fleet of 50. The alliance would be in a much worse position if it lost an airline with a fleet of 400 than 50. In terms of JK and BMI not being in the alliance, the were not a large niche type of airline. The LH group can easily cover all destinations they use to serve.

All BMI did for Star was to present them with a bigger presence in LHR. But the Star Alliance has many Euro airlines compared to OW and Skyteam. LH, LX, OS, SN, LO, OU, KF, A3, JP, SK, TP, and TK they will not be lacking in European presence in LHR.

Now to replace JK, they have TP in Portugal to cover some of their routes, and then the large list of Euro *A members, they will be able to cover all of them.

I am not saying they were unimportant, but they weren't a huge part of *A



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently onlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17348 times:

The main and only trouble I see for Star is South America, with TAM leaving and Gol likely going to Skyteam. Together with the rather persistent TAP Portugal rumors (going IAG) they would lose out. Spanair is no problem, it always felt like an afterthought to me, just to have a Spanish Star Alliance carrier.

User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 734 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16727 times:

Part of the ebb and flow of alliances, not too concerning. My money is still on them, even with TAM's loss which is huge, they still get to compete in Latam.

User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16331 times:

Quoting aviacsa55 (Thread starter):
CO merged and ceased operations to UA

As others have said, it is a net gain, not a lost. In fact, I would say Star would not have even gained CO at all if there was no merger between CO and UA.

At the end of the day, the future of all three alliances lies in the emerging markets. I felt Star's inability to keep a major presence in Shanghai through the lost of Shanghai Airlines and its failure to keep China Eastern out of the hands of other alliances a bigger blow compared to even the potential loss of US.

It must, therefore, fight hard to grab both Air India and Jet Airways to corner the other major market, a victory of which will far eclipse many other smaller losses here and there.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlinehhslax2 From Bahrain, joined Jan 2012, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15431 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 13):
I would say Star would not have even gained CO at all if there was no merger between CO and UA.

CO joined *A before the merger because of the DL/NW merger.


User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2049 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14836 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 13):
At the end of the day, the future of all three alliances lies in the emerging markets. I felt Star's inability to keep a major presence in Shanghai through the lost of Shanghai Airlines and its failure to keep China Eastern out of the hands of other alliances a bigger blow compared to even the potential loss of US.

But you have CA which have an excellent connecting hub at PEK (vs. MU's two hubs at SHA and PVG and the terrible connectivity), not to mention CA flies pretty much to everywhere you need to go to in China. Soon you will also have ZH to cover more of Southern China, which in turn will give Star two hubs, one in the north and one in the south of China, which I think is more complementary than having PEK and SHA/PVG.

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | QF SYD-DFW | AA DFW-TLH-MIA-DFW | QF DFW-SYD
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14673 times:

Regarding connectivity @ LHR - does the Alliance *have* to do that? Why can't LHR just be a fairly large spoke in their system?

I'd like to see a list of markets flown by BMI from LHR/LGW/GLA that aren't already covered by LH (for Asia/Mid East/Africa connections) or CO/UA (for transatlantic links)

-n



xx
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14526 times:

I think shedding some European hubs and introducing overseas hubs like ADD is a good tradeoff for Star. I mean, does there need to be 40 ways to get from Athens to Glasgow?

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13718 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 17):
I think shedding some European hubs and introducing overseas hubs like ADD is a good tradeoff for Star. I mean, does there need to be 40 ways to get from Athens to Glasgow?

Indeed, with the addition of ADD they have at least a hub in Africa, unlike oneworld (which considerably lacks coverage in Africa).

BTW won't Avianca Brazil join Star when TAM leaves?

Quoting Coal (Reply 15):

But you have CA which have an excellent connecting hub at PEK (vs. MU's two hubs at SHA and PVG and the terrible connectivity), not to mention CA flies pretty much to everywhere you need to go to in China. Soon you will also have ZH to cover more of Southern China, which in turn will give Star two hubs, one in the north and one in the south of China, which I think is more complementary than having PEK and SHA/PVG.

Yes, but they lost MU to Skyteam, which means that they still have more options in China then any other alliance.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13427 times:
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Quoting LJ (Reply 18):
Yes, but they lost MU to Skyteam,

They lost FM to MU , which then joined Skyteam. They did not 'lose' MU as they were never part of *A.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13389 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
They lost FM to MU , which then joined Skyteam. They did not 'lose' MU as they were never part of *A.

In a way they did. They lost the bid to SkyTeam. At one point *A CEO was confident MU would pick *A.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13066 times:
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Quoting xiaotung (Reply 20):
In a way they did. They lost the bid to SkyTeam. At one point *A CEO was confident MU would pick *A.

Oneworld, who had much more at stake than *A since they don't have a mainland Chinese carrier could equally be said to have 'lost' MU, and there were certainly people at OW who were equally certain that they had MU 'in the bag' .

Regardless, it is a matter of semantics, neither *A nor OW had MU to begin with . If we are going to go down that track we might as well say that Skyteam 'lost' JL or that OW 'lost' SQ.

Back on to the actual topic.

Yes, *A have lost a couple of small members JK and BD) , and will almost certainly lose a couple of far more significant ones ( US and JJ) . However, they also have new members coming on board and have a pretty healthy geographical spread of coverage. Is the loss a pain? Yes, of course it is. Is A* in trouble ? No more so than the industry in general.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12510 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
That one wouldn't happen. I'm almost certain that competition authorities on both sides of the ditch would block it.

What is more (/most) likely is that there is some merger/buyout/whatever between NZ and VA creating two airlines in the region: QF/JQ and NZ/VA.

There wold be no legal reason to block it, as QF wouldn't be taking a majority share. Even so, teaming up with NZ investors QF could include covenants like all NZ-America/Asia routes are flown on NZ metal or a reduction of Jestar metal between Oz-NZ.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 11):
and Gol likely going to Skyteam.

Everyone likes to spout that, but its actually false.


Gol is not a member of a global alliance, and said the Delta deal doesn't envision Gol joining SkyTeam club, which also includes Air France-KLM SA, AeroMéxico, China Southern Airlines and Korean Air.

Constantino de Oliveira Jr., Gol's chief executive, said on Wednesday that he intends for the airline to stay independent of alliances, but build strong bilateral relationships.


online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203501304577084802263746384.html

Quoting AA94 (Reply 9):
Star still remains strong in Europe with airlines like LH, TP, OS, SK, LX.
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 10):
LH, LX, OS, SN, LO, OU, KF, A3, JP, SK, TP, and TK they will not be lacking in European presence in LHR.

Of those carriers, three could be considered in play (SK, LO, TP). SN, LX, and OS are only safe from defecting because they are owned by LH.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 21):
However, they also have new members coming on board and have a pretty healthy geographical spread of coverage.


That's part of the problem. The airlines being added are small LCC-ish brands or second tier airlines that don't have the brand awareness. Adria, Blue1?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9617 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 22):
The airlines being added are small LCC-ish brands or second tier airlines that don't have the brand awareness. Adria, Blue1?

Errrr, what about Eva Air?

http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNe...ail.aspx?Type=aALL&ID=201203290017



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User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8821 times:
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losing US will do nothing to Star Alliance. They pretty much bring absolutely nothing to the table.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
25 Boeing773ER : Not true, they do have some usefulness to Star, they do feed MUC, FRA, BRU, LIS, and ZUR a little bit from their hubs. They aren't as important as UA
26 AirlineCritic : With very few exceptions, all alliances and airlines are in trouble. Not a good industry. Star may actually be in the best shape of them all. Anyway,
27 ual777uk : I think the words there of significance are "little bit". Star will lose no major sleep if US leaves IMHO
28 Stratacruiser : Having US, UA and AC gives Star considerably more capacity and route options in North America than other Alliances. This in turn means more *A frequen
29 VC10er : Can someone explain the TAP issue? Given their huge focus on Brazil I would assume it would further add to Star's weakness in LATAM. I have found them
30 LJ : My understanding is that TAP is that some Angolan investors are very interested to invest in TAP (no airline related party), or have they backed down
31 Byrdluvs747 : I don't think it's hypothetical at all. If Finnair was said to be interested instead of IAG, then I would agree. However, its been stated by numerous
32 mozart : EVA? Avianca-TACA? Other than that: CO = not really lost JK = good riddance US = a pity though, Star had the upper hand in the US market, ultimately
33 Byrdluvs747 : Yes, I would consider EVA and AV second tier. Definitely not on the BA, LH, CX level.
34 UALWN : If BR and AV are second tier, then what are the airlines Star has lost so far, JK and BD?
35 Burkhard : Loosing US is half of the gain they had with CO, or maybe even less. Star is in less troubles than the other alliances which have main members (AA, AF
36 Byrdluvs747 : I wouldn't call AA's issues deathly. AA will exist with or without US. I can't speak to AF's problems.
37 RCS763AV : It depends what you call second tier. They are both leaders in the markets they serve which are quite large in their regions and bring a large array
38 Post contains images lightsaber : How can one say *A is in trouble due to losing a few minor members? Including one sold off as it wasn't profitable For LH! Does *A have holes? India,
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