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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?  
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14862 times:

Hey guys,

Topics I would like to talk about is

The 767 retirement plans, how much longer they will be around
How many A330 is HA expecting this year and where will they be placed
Lastly, will HA try to get some more 717

[Edited 2012-04-21 15:44:14]

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14694 times:

Don't quote me on this but I believe 3 or 4 A330s are due in. Maybe a lot more, maybe less. That's what I've heard so far though from the rampers at PHX


Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14508 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
Lastly, will HA try to get some more 717

You would think with such a limited market that HA already has enough 717's in their fleet already, is there still a need for them to bring more 717's in?


User currently offlineCapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14453 times:

What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?



388 346 77W 787
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14450 times:

Does HA have a plan on what to replace the 717's with yet? and when is there exit date?


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14414 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 4):

I don't thnk there even ready to think about that


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14412 times:

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):

I would say Cseries but the 717 will be around for another decade


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14410 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 2):

Not exactly, looking at the census the population is steadily growing, I'm not saying they should get 10 more I'm just saying they could get 2 more


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14374 times:

Well, they've recently taken 3 more 717, bringing them up to 18. I could see 20 eventually, but not too much more than that. Of course they can only serve 5 airports with them, so the choices are very limited. The 3 extras will help with their little Maui build up and additional frequencies, which can largely be attributed to connections to their new Asia flying. At the same time, airlines like Alaska have been aggressive in the outer islands, minimizing increased need for partner connectivity.

If their international growth continues at this rate, I wonder if we'd ever see the 767 be used inter island at peak times. Could potentially make some sense, they've done it before. Maybe they would go that route if there is a significant increase in demand again.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14371 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 2):

You would think with such a limited market that HA already has enough 717's in their fleet already, is there still a need for them to bring more 717's in?
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?

This has been the topic of much discussion on a.net for a few years now but the conclusion is that at present, there is not a suitable replacement (either in person, or on the books) for the 717, in terms of RASM, CASM, and capability, both in terms of capacity, and also the ability to take a beating on HA's short-hop interisland routes.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13889 times:

The 763s were used on HNL-OGG runs after Aloha went out of business. The leased 763s will be returned upon expiration of those leases. How long will they keep the purchased ones? That remains to be seen, but I suspect the bought ones will be sold off once the A350-800s come on line.

I don't think there will be any more 712s added to the HAL fleet. As far as a replacement goes, it may be far off. considering HAL owns 15 of the 18 712s. They'll want to get a high return on investment. Plus HAL has 85% of the inter-island market.

One factor would be how engines will handle short turn times. Aloha had issues with not enough cool down times on the CFM56s that were on their 737-300s and 737-400s. HAL will have a lot of options when it comes to a 712 replacement.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13849 times:

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):

What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

Either EJets or CSeries I would say



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5012 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13560 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

When would we expect to witness the A332 fleet down under...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13486 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 12):
When would we expect to witness the A332 fleet down under...?

In two days, April 24th.


User currently onlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13266 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 10):
Aloha had issues with not enough cool down times on the CFM56s that were on their 737-300s and 737-400s.

Where'd you get that info from? Aloha never had B737-3/4 in their feet. Only 200s, 700s and a 800 for a short time.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 907 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13195 times:
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Quoting whiteguy (Reply 14):
Where'd you get that info from? Aloha never had B737-3/4 in their feet. Only 200s, 700s and a 800 for a short time



They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

Tom SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13170 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 15):
They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

There is also a picture of each type on this site:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Peters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe G. Walker



[Edited 2012-04-22 07:55:06]

User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13143 times:

I don't think HA will try to take on more 717's, I think they have enough for inter-island hopping for now.

I think the 767's stil have a lot of life in them, IIRC HA just added winglets to their fleet of 767s; but I may be wrong.

IIRC HA just ordered about 5 more A330s, not sure if any of these were delivered yet.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12986 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 13):

Do you have any idea where that new A330 will be flying to


User currently onlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12707 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 15):
They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

I stand corrected. I had a look and couldn't fin anything in Aloha's history, granted Wikipedia isn't always accurate. Thanks guys.


User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12566 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 18):

I believe they fly them to LAX, LAS, and HND.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12505 times:

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 20):

Ik now that, btw soon JFK

I'm saying where are the brand new A330 going


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12393 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 21):
I'm saying where are the brand new A330 going

I have no clue specifically. What I was saying earlier is that HA is putting the A330 on their HNL-SYD flight in 2 days. Now whether that is because they just got a new A330 enabling it or by shuffling their current fleet around I don't know.


User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1367 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12124 times:

HA's A330's currently fly daily from HNL to HND, KIX, SFO, LAX (flights 10 and 2) and LAS (flights 18 and 8).

Daily A330 service to SYD commences on 4/24. Daily A330 service to JFK commences on 6/4.

I believe that the next city to see the A330 will be SAN.

Aloha,
HALFA



Don't mess with Texas....We just may do that!
User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 11892 times:

Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Didn't they fly DC-9s right up until the 717s were delivered? Aloha was still flying 737-200s until the end. I believe both of those fleets were more than twice as old as the 717s when they were finally retired.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineKLAXAirport From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12349 times:

Recently on my HA trip the FO and Capt. said that HA will be receiving 2-3 more A330's this year.

Cheers
KLAXAirport   


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12006 times:

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):

I agree, they still have plenty of leg in them, there not a bad plane


User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11420 times:

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Didn't they fly DC-9s right up until the 717s were delivered? Aloha was still flying 737-200s until the end. I believe both of those fleets were more than twice as old as the 717s when they were finally retired.

Hawaiian flew their DC9's for over 30 years, so to say they are going to replace the 717's soon is probably just wishful thinking. They still have a ton of life left in them, and considering the lack of demand for used 717's, it wouldn't make economic sense to try and sell them. I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline. My guess is that Hawaiian will fly the 717's until the wheels fall off or they become an economic drain for the airline.


User currently offlineBUGYUL From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9622 times:

More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.

User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1155 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9355 times:
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Quoting msp747 (Reply 27):
Hawaiian flew their DC9's for over 30 years, so to say they are going to replace the 717's soon is probably just wishful thinking. They still have a ton of life left in them, and considering the lack of demand for used 717's, it wouldn't make economic sense to try and sell them. I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline. My guess is that Hawaiian will fly the 717's until the wheels fall off or they become an economic drain for the airline.
Quoting BUGYUL (Reply 28):

More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.

The DC-9 was or still is one rugged aircraft. It uses butt joints rather than lap joints to bond or merge together the fuselage skin panels. For one, it eliminates cracking around rivet heads. One of the DC-9 larger faults is that the aft pressure bulkhead where the rear tail door is located is subject to failure. The FAA limited the DC-9 to 100,000 cycle, unless a required after pressure bulkhead repair was completed. Northwest completed several, but decided it was not worth the cost and effort.

No, there are no 717s being built. However the 717 will be around for a long time and airlines will continue to buy and sell it. The 717 is a very rugged aircraft , like the DC-9 it is, and will fly for a very long period of time.   



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9123 times:

Quoting HALFA (Reply 23):
LAX (flights 10 and 2)

I also believe that FL# 9 is also A330 daily.

[Edited 2012-04-22 15:34:27]


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6341 posts, RR: 33
Reply 31, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9123 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 8):
Of course they can only serve 5 airports with them

 
There are only 5 airports that can handle a 717 in Hawaii? I think there are 5 that get 767s from UPS.



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 48
Reply 32, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8950 times:

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

Based on what?

Quoting 777fan (Reply 9):
This has been the topic of much discussion on a.net for a few years now but the conclusion is that at present, there is not a suitable replacement (either in person, or on the books) for the 717

Whether or not there is a suitable replacement, one is certainly not needed.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Because msp747 [below] has hit the nail on the head...

Quoting msp747 (Reply 27):
I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline.

Correct, and nothing more.

Quoting BUGYUL (Reply 28):
More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.

We know that. Do you really think none will be available on the secondary market?

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 29):
No, there are no 717s being built. However the 717 will be around for a long time and airlines will continue to buy and sell it. The 717 is a very rugged aircraft , like the DC-9 it is, and will fly for a very long period of time.

  


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 33, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8834 times:
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I suspect that HA is buying 717s cheap enough for 4 to 7 year duty. While purchased, they can be almost treated as a short term lease due to the low purchase price.

I'm curious as to the lease expiration timeline on the GE powered 767s. Any links? HA made comments that the purchased Pratt powered 767 fleet was economical due to the existing GE fleet. I suspect the Pratt fleet would be retired within 2 years of the last lease expiration, if not sooner.

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?

Most likely the C-series or E-jets. HA will not benefit much from next generation engines due to their amazingly short missions.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 7):
I'm not saying they should get 10 more I'm just saying they could get 2 more

I would agree. However I could see the total a few higher... It all depends on the time frame HA is considering keeping the 717.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

The issue is the improvement in other narrowbody engines. The CF34 should only need an overhaul every 20k cycles versus every 7k for the BMR715. Right now the 717s are in good shape, but they have not been certified for 100k cycles as were the DC-9s. IIRC, 60k cycles for each 717 which is 15 years in HA service.

Note: From all accounts, the 717 could have its cycle life extended. However, there are simply too few in service for Boeing to justify the ~$200 million testing bill to extend the 717 life. There would be no return on investment. Just as there is no ROI for Rolls Royce to create PIP to extend the engine cycle life or reduce its fuel burn. RR could double the engine cycle life and reduce fuel burn 3%, but there needs to be another 200 or so engines in the fleet to pay for the PIP R&D.

The 717 is a great airframe that is capable of as long a life as the DC-9, but it isn't certified. That makes owning the 'fleet leading example' pricey.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineHA_DC9 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8687 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
I'm curious as to the lease expiration timeline on the GE powered 767s. Any links? HA made comments that the purchased Pratt powered 767 fleet was economical due to the existing GE fleet. I suspect the Pratt fleet would be retired within 2 years of the last lease expiration, if not sooner.

The only GE powered 767's that HA has are the 4 older ex-DL ships (N594HA, N596-598HA...formerly N116-119DL). These aircraft are not leased but were purchased outright from the lessors after DL parked them some years ago and were extensively refurbished. No word yet on their retirement, but HA does own them outright in addition to the 3 ex-AWAS PW powered 767's N580-582HA.

The remaining 9 767s are leased from ILFC and BCC.

For calendary year 2012, HA will have 4 A330s delivered bringing the total in the fleet to 9 by the end of 2012. The first of the 4 (HA's 6th) was delivered and put into service a few weeks ago. The 7th aircraft was supposed to be delivered this month which may have been delivered already or in the next few days. The 8th is to be delivered sometime in May and the 9th is to be delivered sometime in June. Here's the press release: http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...-newsArticle&ID=1674715&highlight=

Now, according to this: http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...-newsArticle&ID=1631515&highlight= HA will have 13 A330's joining the fleet from calendar 2013 to 2015. This is in addition to the 9 accounted for above bringing the total A330 fleet size for HA to 22 by the end of 2015. Also in this same press release, the 2013-2015 A330 deliveries are in part for the replacement of 10 767's being retired. I don't have the time right now to sort through all the annual reports and SEC filings for HA because I think those documents have when all the aircraft leases end, but I am presuming the 10 767's being retired are all or most of the 9 I mentioned above. Of those 9 above, I know 5 of them (all BCC leased) have winglets that HA paid for. The other 4 (all ILFC) do not have winglets so I can deduct those 4 will go first (these were with LTU prior to joining HA). I would think that aircraft with the winglets installed would remain with HA longer because of ROI since HA bought the winglets and not the lessors. So I would deduct the 4 ILFC leased aircraft and the 4 ex-DL aircraft would go first. Also, speaking solely on manufacturing age, these 8 767's are the oldest in HA's fleet. Also, we still need to account for 2 more 767s being retired by the end of 2015 since HA said they were retiring 10. My guess is it will be 2 of the BCC leased and wingleted aircraft since HA owns outright the ex-AWAS leased aircraft. HA already returned 2 767's I think last year and those 2 were BCC leases. This is all my speculation of course having not gone through all the annual reports and SEC filings for the lease information on the 767's.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 35, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8497 times:
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I didn't realize HA owned seven 767s... (I thought it was only 4.) That might justify keeping a subfleet. It might justify picking up a few in 2014 or 2015 (by when I expect 767 resale values to be low) to top off the fleet for 'high season' use.

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
The remaining 9 767s are leased from ILFC and BCC.

Thank you. I had it backwards. Small fleet of GE with a main fleet of Pratt. Oops! As a 'Pratt fan,' I'm not sure how I had that backwards! oops.

There was even a Pratt press release:
http://www.pw.utc.com/media_center/p...s/2002/02_feb/2-7-2002_7312240.asp

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
the 2013-2015 A330 deliveries are in part for the replacement of 10 767's being retired.

Again, thank you. The time frame is good enough. I'm not going to worry if HA gains or losses an airframe here or there. Overall it is a growth trend.

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
The other 4 (all ILFC) do not have winglets so I can deduct those 4 will go first

I suspect non-wingleted 767s have a future as freighters pretty quickly. Not this year... but soon as 787 production ramps up.

I find it interesting Hawaiian has Pratt, GE, and Rolls engines on their widebodies.   
I suspect, as with the Pratts on the 767s, HA has signed fleet service agreements. (I couldn't imagine the cost of such work in Hawaii.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5603 posts, RR: 12
Reply 36, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8464 times:

Quoting HALFA (Reply 23):
I believe that the next city to see the A330 will be SAN.

I was hearing this rumor earlier this year but nothing recently. (And I haven't seen any equipment change listed in the online schedules so I didn't know if the rumor was still alive or not.)

Thanks for the update and the nice news (maybe.) I sure hope we do see the 330 at Lindbergh this summer!

Mahalo and Aloha!

bb


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20351 posts, RR: 59
Reply 37, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8368 times:

HA has just invested a lot into their 767 interiors and also added winglets. There is no sign that the 767 is going anywhere in the next 5-10 years. When they do go, they will be replaced by A330's or maybe 787's. The 717's are optimized for short flights (engines very efficient in climb, not so much in cruise), so they are perfect for the intra-island market. If each one flies five legs a day, it will be 30 years from delivery before they need to be retired because of aft pressure bulkhead. Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 38, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8307 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
If each one flies five legs a day, it will be 30 years from delivery before they need to be retired because of aft pressure bulkhead.

Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5012 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8270 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 13):

Wonderful to hear even though I love the HA winglet B763ER aircraft they look amazing...

It's time QF introduced the A332 on the SYD-HNL-SYD route if they intend to compete with HA..

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 40, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7831 times:
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Quoting HAL (Reply 38):
Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

I've been amazed to see how HA used to (still?) fly as much as 17 legs per day during 'high season.'   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
There is no sign that the 767 is going anywhere in the next 5-10 years.

All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s. We've already seen a number returned to BCC as the leases expire. When HA is down to a small number of owned 767s, I'm not sure the fleet will have enough 'economy of scale' to keep around past 2017.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.

HA might keep them around for 'high season' peaking, but its expensive to maintain aircraft for flight, so I doubt that is a long term strategy.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 41, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7494 times:

Has anybody seen any HA 330s fly into PHX? Lets say, for a substitution?


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User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 42, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7493 times:

What are the chances of Hawaiian getting some 787

User currently onlineSevensixtyseven From United States of America, joined May 2011, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7339 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):

Never happened, I highly doubt it will, at least until they have additional A330s. I don't think there is any slack whatsoever in the A332 schedules. I have seen on flightaware when an A332 does have a technical problem, usually they substitute a 767 into Vegas, and pull off the A332 that is doing that routing, to cover for whatever plane isn't available.

In fact..I doubt Hawaiian Airlines as a whole has too much slack in their schedule at all to cover any irregular operations. As small as their route network is, they only have 23 widebodies, and 10 routes from Honolulu daily, (counting only 1x daily flights) to the Mainland US, as well as 8 international routes, which do not operate on all days. LAX has 3 flights daily, and Vegas has either 2 or 3 routes, depending on the day of the week. Throw in the Maui focus city operations to the Mainland US...and if one plane goes out of service..you're bound to have a cancellation of at least one route.



Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
User currently offlinetrevd From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7235 times:

None of the BCC a/c have come back and in fact they seem to be the pacing item in HA's widebody transition strategy as the leases go out quite a few years ((believe 2 go out to close to 2020 with the 3rd coming out earlier; 2016).

And with HA's new orderbook firmly in the Airbus camp with A330s and A350's, you can bet Boeing won't lift a finger to help take the 763s out any sooner. So with the Boeing a/c in there to 2020, expect we will see HA's owned a/c remaining and they'll operate the 767-300ER's as a small sub-fleet

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s. We've already seen a number returned to BCC as the leases expire. When HA is down to a small number of owned 767s, I'm not sure the fleet will have enough 'economy of scale' to keep around past 2017. Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 45, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7169 times:
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Quoting trevd (Reply 44):
None of the BCC a/c have come back

I would have sworn at the time these were BCC leases. Were they ILFC?
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/120209/ha10-k.html

and lease return costs incurred with the return of the two leased Boeing 767-300 aircraft in May and October 2011.

Were those Ansett leases?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetrevd From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7038 times:

They were 2 of the AWAS aircraft...previously N591HA and N593HA that AWAS then put into Air Canada.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I would have sworn at the time these were BCC leases. Were they ILFC?
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/120209/ha10-k.html

and lease return costs incurred with the return of the two leased Boeing 767-300 aircraft in May and October 2011.

Were those Ansett leases?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20351 posts, RR: 59
Reply 47, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 38):
Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

OK, then 10-15 years at least. They do fly the hell out of those planes, but they are full of passengers!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s.

Why would BCC do that? That makes no sense.

Quoting trevd (Reply 44):
And with HA's new orderbook firmly in the Airbus camp with A330s and A350's, you can bet Boeing won't lift a finger to help take the 763s out any sooner.

That makes more sense.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
That makes more sense.

I know you didn't make the statement that led to this, but does it make sense? We are talking some sort of "retaliatory" action as a result of HA going with Airbus, and I just don't see this as a sensible reason to do that. Am I being naive? Perhaps...but I'm not sure Boeing would look the other way at planes that could find some use elsewhere in the world as a freighter or something...

Just my .02



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6772 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 48):
but I'm not sure Boeing would look the other way at planes that could find some use elsewhere in the world as a freighter or something...

You're assuming Boeing would be able to lease those a/c immediately, and at a higher rate than they're currently drawing, otherwise. They'll probably still be able to re-lease them when the term with HA ends.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6762 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 49):
You're assuming Boeing would be able to lease those a/c immediately, and at a higher rate than they're currently drawing, otherwise. They'll probably still be able to re-lease them when the term with HA ends.

That is correct. I, for one, don't think they would pass up the opportunity at these planes EVEN is they weren't at the same rate they are currently making. Then again, my forte isn't in aircraft sales and acquisitions so I could be talking out my rear.

My point being is that they would'n' say NO just because HA went Airbus on widebody over Boeing. That seems a little over the top to me.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20351 posts, RR: 59
Reply 51, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6659 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 48):

I know you didn't make the statement that led to this, but does it make sense? We are talking some sort of "retaliatory" action as a result of HA going with Airbus, and I just don't see this as a sensible reason to do that. Am I being naive? Perhaps...but I'm not sure Boeing would look the other way at planes that could find some use elsewhere in the world as a freighter or something...

It makes no sense that BCC would jack up the lease rates on the 767's to the point where HA's only option was new planes knowing that those new planes will be Airbus. BCC can make the 767 as economical as the A330 to operate by lowering the lease rates.

HA has made it very clear that they will be using Airbus widebodies and 717's for the time being. It's a pity they didn't order the 788. but such is life.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 52, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6368 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
Why would BCC do that? That makes no sense.

Not if other customers are willing to pay more or take a longer term. HA simply wishes to renew leases for the 767s at lower than the going rate others are willing to pay due to the 787 delays. With their incoming A330s, HA has already borne the cost of introducing the new fleet type.

There is a 'short term crunch' for 767s today. I fully expect to see 767 lease rates drop ~30% after a few hundred 787s are delivered. Note: That is a 30% further drop below the normal decline due to aircraft age.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 53, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6341 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
It makes no sense that BCC would jack up the lease rates on the 767's to the point where HA's only option was new planes knowing that those new planes will be Airbus.

The lease rates are not being 'jacked up,' they are not being discounted to the point HA wouldn't have better economics with the A330. All indications are that Airbus gave HA a good deal.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
BCC can make the 767 as economical as the A330 to operate by lowering the lease rates.

They could. But why when another airline will lease the same airframe under better terms for BCC. To be competitive with the A330, BCC would have to drop lease rates to the point they would have to take a charge on the aircraft. That would immediately have a large number of 767 customers demanding discounts...

Or BCC could just lease the aircraft to the highest bidder, which does not appear to be HA.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 54, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
HA has made it very clear that they will be using Airbus widebodies and 717's for the time being. It's a pity they didn't order the 788. but such is life.

If HA had ordered the 788, they'd still be waiting, and waiting, and waiting. At the time they made the decision on the A330, the order book for the Boeing was already about 500 planes deep. So instead of a growing fleet and route structure today, they'd have the same fleet, route, and income stream as in 2007. I think HA made the right decision.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 54):

As do I, and as a matter of pure opinion (and not usually something I say...) the HA A330 is a gorgeous looking airplane  

[Edited 2012-04-24 10:17:45]


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26814 posts, RR: 75
Reply 56, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 31):
There are only 5 airports that can handle a 717 in Hawaii?

I wonder that. Given the short missions, I would think MKK and LNY could handle it if there was the demand. MUE too, though that would be too close to KOA and ITO to really justify it.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
I didn't realize HA owned seven 767s... (I thought it was only 4.)

That said, aren't the ex-DL ones 763As, with significantly shorter range than the 763ERs they leased? Also, how about the ex-LTU birds? Those are much older than the original 767s they ordered. Are they as capable?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?

Most likely the C-series or E-jets. HA will not benefit much from next generation engines due to their amazingly short missions.

If it ever enters service, they could also consider the Comac ARJ21-- people might not even notice the swap out.   Or, only slightly more seriously, a large turboprop.


User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (2 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 5599 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 31):
There are only 5 airports that can handle a 717 in Hawaii?

I wonder that. Given the short missions, I would think MKK and LNY could handle it if there was the demand. MUE too, though that would be too close to KOA and ITO to really justify it.

runways are not long enough without taking severe weight penalties. I read someplace on these forums that it was no longer (and never really was) financially viable to do jet service from the smaller runways at MKK & LNY due to this, even with the advent of the 717 in the fleet. There was however a time that HA used the DC-9-50 to these airports with the huge weight penalties/passenger limits after the dash-7 left the fleet.



Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20351 posts, RR: 59
Reply 59, posted (2 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53):
The lease rates are not being 'jacked up,' they are not being discounted to the point HA wouldn't have better economics with the A330. All indications are that Airbus gave HA a good deal.

Is the A330 *that* much more economical than the 767? I know they are very new frames, but what % decrease on the CASM could HA expect to have?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 60, posted (2 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 5560 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 16):

Who has their -400's now?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (2 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 30):
I also believe that FL# 9 is also A330 daily.

Well thats a given since its the return journey. Flight 2 and 10 are the outbound HNL-LAX. Flights 1 and 9 are the inbound LAX-HNL.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 907 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (2 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 5428 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 60):
Who has their -400's now?



Both Aloha -400s eventually wound up at Garuda after going to Star Airways and then Jet Airways of India. One was written off in 2007 in Yogyakarta. The other is now with Aerosur Bolivia. Who knows it's fate now with the demise of Aerosur?

(source: rzjets.net...a great place for fleet lists btw)

Tom SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

This article should help answer a few questions above...

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...-net-income-leaps-726-million-0425

Hawaiian Airlines’ (HA) first-quarter consolidated net income leapt to $7.26 million, up $6.4 million from $855,000 from the year-ago quarter (ATW Daily News, April 28, 2011). Despite high fuel costs, HA said long-haul demand has remained strong and results were “better than … expected at the beginning of the year,” HA president and CEO Mark Dunkerley said.

Also, speaking of the 717's...

“2011 was an unusually difficult year,” Topping said. “We experienced a heavy concentration of heavy maintenance checks on the 717 fleet, significant engine overhaul costs, and the last round of material rate increases in certain power by the hour agreements. In contrast, 2012 maintenance expense generally reflects volume-related increases associated with our growth.”

Things are alright over there...



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5093 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
Is the A330 *that* much more economical than the 767? I know they are very new frames, but what % decrease on the CASM could HA expect to have?

Per seatguru
A330-200 has 18J/276Y
767-300 (v2) has 18J/252Y (V1 is 18J/235Y)

So the seat count difference is small. HA seems to be replacing 264 seat 763s with 294 seat A332s (longer missions) as well as some West coast flights.

But my discussion is on lease rates. All indications are that BCC is not willing to cut lease rates on the 767s to be competitive with the A330. This is more commercial terms than aircraft performance. Boeing is finding new customers for the 767s where the present value of their lease is greater than what HA would offer.


This article is a bit fragmented for comparing a 763 vs. A332, but it has some good points:
http://www.aircraft-commerce.com/sam...articles/fleet_planning_sample.pdf

For a 1200nm mission, the A332 burns $340 more in fue and $85 per flight hour more in maintenance. Now lets assume 1200nm is ~2hour flight the A332 has $255 more in costs per flight hour over 30 people or just over $8/hr per person before finance cost differences. Do I think HA will average better than $85 per seat to the US west coast?   

So it comes down to the commercial terms of the lease. HA bought/leased the A330s when Airbus was discounting heavily. So I could see their A332 lease rates being *less* than 763 lease terms!    If true, or even close, HA will make more money with the A332s. There has to be a reason they bought the type.   There also has to be a reason the A332/A333 was pushing the 767 out of the market...

Yes, I ignored CASM and worked cost/revenue per flight. The A332 does better on longer flights vs. the 763 than the numbers I found. Fuel prices have also climbed since that study. That only raises the bar a little. Considering A332 and 767 fuel costs approach each other on longer missions... HA might be in a unique position of having the bulk of their missions near optimal A332 range.

Again, it comes down to what *other* airlines are willing to pay Boeing for the same 767s.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinen901wa From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Well this should fit ok here. Hawaiians Newest A330 ship 386 arrived LAX for preservice mods Friday night 04/27/12, and I believe is done and ready to join the fleet. Her Name is Heiheionakeiki. Hope you enjoy the pictures  


User currently offlineflyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1880 posts, RR: 3
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

What is the typical PAX demographics for HA's inter-island operation flights? I've always been interested by the sheer quanity of seats operated in these markets for the relitively small population, it's not BOS-LGA for instance. Therefore I've always assumed that a large portion, if not a majority, of these seats are connecting leisure traffic out of HNL going onward to inter-island destinations. But one must also suspect that some of these customers are very likely business, as HA really is one of very limited and most convenient options for Hawaiian state business between the islands.

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 66):

What is the typical PAX demographics for HA's inter-island operation flights? I've always been interested by the sheer quanity of seats operated in these markets for the relitively small population, it's not BOS-LGA for instance. Therefore I've always assumed that a large portion, if not a majority, of these seats are connecting leisure traffic out of HNL going onward to inter-island destinations. But one must also suspect that some of these customers are very likely business, as HA really is one of very limited and most convenient options for Hawaiian state business between the islands.

The typical passenger are people going to work, business people, people needing toget to another Island for what ever reason you would need to go to HNL or other parts of the Islands.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

How do they introduce new planes into service? Subs for 767 on domestic routes at all?

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 69, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 67):
The typical passenger are people going to work, business people, people needing toget to another Island for what ever reason you would need to go to HNL or other parts of the Islands.

If they're commuters going to work, are there special prices for them? That sounds expensive, needing to fly to work every day



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting n901wa (Reply 65):

Awesome pic


User currently offlinealoha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 71, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 66):
What is the typical PAX demographics for HA's inter-island operation flights?

Heres how it generally breaks down:

5am-9am - Locals & Business Traffic
9am-3pm - tourists; mainland & international connections
3pm-10pm - Locals & Business Traffic

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 69):
If they're commuters going to work, are there special prices for them? That sounds expensive, needing to fly to work every day

There used to be a few options...Aloha had a commuter pass, AQ & HA both had the famous "coupon" systems. HA currently has a few different interisland travel plans that allow you to pre-purchase a specific number of flights with different rules & discounts depending on how often & when you need to fly.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 72, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4191 times:
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Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 66):
What is the typical PAX demographics for HA's inter-island operation flights?

Everyone. Flying is really the only available option for anyone needing or wanting to go to another island.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 71):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 69):
If they're commuters going to work, are there special prices for them? That sounds expensive, needing to fly to work every day

There used to be a few options...Aloha had a commuter pass,

Both HA and AQ had monthly commuter passes. You got unlimited flights for around $1000 in 2000. Plus you got the minimum miles and segment credits for each flight that pushed all these commuters to the highest elite levels in the FFPs. No reservations, just show up, get upgraded to first class, and cruise in the lounge if you have to wait.

By the time the commuter passes were discontinued at the end of 2004, (HA in October, AQ in December), the prices went up to around $2000 and you no longer got unlimited miles. IIRC, the flight segments still counted towards elite membership qualification.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2400 posts, RR: 7
Reply 73, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
Note: From all accounts, the 717 could have its cycle life extended. However, there are simply too few in service for Boeing to justify the ~$200 million testing bill to extend the 717 life. There would be no return on investment. Just as there is no ROI for Rolls Royce to create PIP to extend the engine cycle life or reduce its fuel burn. RR could double the engine cycle life and reduce fuel burn 3%, but there needs to be another 200 or so engines in the fleet to pay for the PIP R&D.

Perhaps there are multiple mod options for the BR715s, as there is a current mod available that would increase the service length between overhauls. Word is this upgrade is a table item for a transaction involving 88 717s...   



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 74, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3359 times:
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Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 73):
increase the service length between overhauls.

To how many cycles for the BR715s? I doubt it is at CFM-56-7/V2500 20,000 cycles between overhauls. I've been hearing numbers that are far less than that. As in 35% to 40%! (Not 35% lower, but circa 1990 engine service lives... oh wait...). If I missed a modification (PIP), I'd like to know.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 73):
Word is this upgrade is a table item for a transaction involving 88 717s...

I'd like to know more. I've heard zero. Engine overhaul interval has been an issue for the 717. I'd love to hear that was resolved. My sources on that engine have 'moved on' so I haven't heard anything for years.

If the overhaul interval wasn't extended, I see HA buying the C-series or re-engined E-Jets in 7 or 8 years. The 717 transaction values have been low enough to treat them as a short term lease... (expendable). I love the plane (the only T-tail besides the ERJ-135), but that has nothing to do with its economics. Eventually HA should buy a narrowbody that could reach the US West coast. Not today... But eventually. I could see the CS100 being a great fit for them. But for now, used 717s are so cheap, HA should continue to expand with the type.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12887 posts, RR: 46
Reply 75, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3166 times:
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Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 42):
What are the chances of Hawaiian getting some 787

With a growing A330 fleet and A350s on order, I'd say close to no chance.   

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 55):
As do I, and as a matter of pure opinion (and not usually something I say...) the HA A330 is a gorgeous looking airplane

I'd certainly agree, it's a shame us Europeans have to go so far to see them!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley


Mind you, even their 767s look very nice.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley




Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2400 posts, RR: 7
Reply 76, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 74):

As I understand it, it's a gearing alteration with much of the leg work having been done previously on the 700 series. This is said to improve operational reliability and increase the service length between overhauls. There's a lot more to it than that - I'm sorry I don't have all the technical details to provide. But FWIW, it may not be a "cure all" for BR715, but it's a "must-have" for the next large 717 operator.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 77, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2806 times:
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Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 76):
But FWIW, it may not be a "cure all" for BR715, but it's a "must-have" for the next large 717 operator.

That sounds reasonable. Both RR and Boeing want to keep the support revenue flowing in.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 76):
it's a gearing alteration

Do you mean a stator mapping change? The auxiliary gearbox on the BMR715 was not an area of concern, too my knowledge.

Just to be clear, I know the 717 is very dependable (including the engines). It is purely the required frequency of engine overhauls that is a cost issue.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

With the 717 staying in the HA for some time to come, could HA buy some extra 717's for parts and have these planes parked in VCV, GYR or MZJ until the parts are needed? I think that I read that G4 did the same thing with their MD's

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MSP Spotters HA 767 posted Thu Apr 29 2010 17:10:10 by Mrbrooks
HA 767-300 Engine Question posted Fri Jan 29 2010 14:37:00 by 28L28L
Question Regarding HA 767-300 posted Sun Jan 17 2010 11:40:59 by 28L28L