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DL Vs. Boeing: DL Wants Loans Ended For Foreigners  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11267 times:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorentho...ndermines-boeing/?partner=yahootix

I guess to some extent I give them credit for trying anything to advantage themselves, but I'm not a fan of being hypocritical.

"The aim of Delta’s campaign is to prevent the Export-Import Bank, an independent federal agency, from providing financing for foreign purchases of widebody airliners built by Boeing. Delta management says such planes can be used to compete against U.S. carriers on international routes, and that a government agency should not be helping foreigners to do that."

"First of all, Delta’s concern about the market-distorting effects of aircraft export credits seems a bit disingenuous, since it is one of the biggest recipients of such credit in the world. The company has tapped billions of dollars in financing from the export credit agencies of Brazil and Canada to purchase hundreds of aircraft made in those countries. "


It should be pointed out that DL routinely uses the RJs they purchased using Canadian EXIM financing to compete with Air Canada in trans-border markets.

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11194 times:

This is not to mention the other dirty trick many 'foreign' (to the US) carriers play: providing a far better standard of product...  


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

It should be pointed out that DL routinely uses the RJs they purchased using Canadian EXIM financing to compete with Air Canada in trans-border markets.

And, as you quoted above, DL is specifically talking about financing to purchase widebody a/c, not regional jets. I doubt if DL using RJs, transborder, is really hurting AC all that much.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 1):
This is not to mention the other dirty trick many 'foreign' (to the US) carriers play: providing a far better standard of product...  

Well, that should simply be outlawed.  
Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I doubt if DL using RJs, transborder, is really hurting AC all that much.

Well, they compete head to head on the same routes. I'd say that airlines using EXIM financing of Boeing jets aren't hurting Delta all that much. LOL.

Delta is in a JV with KLM where it shares costs and revenues. KLM aircraft are financed with EXIM financing, so Delta receives the benefit of that financing on its own flights. I guess they can make the argument of "we do it because everybody else does, so we have to be able to compete". It's not a great argument, though.
http://www.ca-cib.com/news/major-dea...loses-exim-refinancing-for-klm.htm

Many of the carriers involved have Delta codes on their planes.
http://www.aircrafteconomics.com/Art...-Air-closes-ExIm-deal-for-777.html

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
And, as you quoted above, DL is specifically talking about financing to purchase widebody a/c, not regional jets.

They kind of have to limit themselves to only complaining about widebody jets for obvious reasons.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10893 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
They kind of have to limit themselves to only complaining about widebody jets for obvious reasons.

Or maybe that's just where it hurts the most......on long haul, widebody flights. Besides, not ALL of the RJs that are used were purchased by DL but by the contracting carriers.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10702 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
They kind of have to limit themselves to only complaining about widebody jets for obvious reasons.

Or maybe that's just where it hurts the most......on long haul, widebody flights. Besides, not ALL of the RJs that are used were purchased by DL but by the contracting carriers.

What is your defense of JV participation by Delta using planes financed with EXIM loans? The world is so global now for the legacies, there is no moral high ground.

I think if the WTO outlawed all EXIM financing that might be OK, although it would lead to less new aircraft. If only the U.S. does it then it doesn't make much competitive sense.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10677 times:

Delta has no choice - how are they going to compete with other airlines like JetBlue who may not care about Exim financing?

Lufthansa has made similar complaints:

http://presse.lufthansa.com/fileadmi...ief-October-2010-ExportCredits.pdf

This is hardly limited to Delta.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10556 times:

Let's take a look at some of the points the article makes:


"Second, the Export-Import Bank doesn’t give subsidized loans to anybody for aircraft purchases. It can’t afford to because Congress requires it to be self-sustaining, so it must impose fees on users of its services to cover operating costs and loan reserves. Congress also prohibits it from competing with commercial lenders, which is why the foreign buyers who utilize Ex-Im credit typically are unable to access private-sector financing. The number of companies in that predicament tends to swell when economic conditions are weak and credit dries up, but there are also many carriers in countries with unstable economies or political systems who cannot obtain private financing for their aircraft purchases."

Yeah, they can't access private financing because they don't have the credit rating! The only one misleading anybody here is the author.


"Third, the reason Delta can’t get the same loan terms as some foreign carriers isn’t because of Ex-Im programs, it’s because Delta has a low credit rating. Under the most recent Aircraft Sector Understanding agreed to by U.S. and European nations, it costs borrowers significantly more to use government export credits for their aircraft purchases than it would to use commercial financing, but borrowers with good credit ratings like Southwest Airlines will always get better terms than borrowers with inferior ratings. So Delta’s real problem is its junk-bond credit rating, and what it is actually complaining about is the normal functioning of market forces — which favor companies with good credit histories."

If that was true, nobody would ever go to Exim for a loan.


"Finally, the idea of joining with European nations to abolish export credits for airliners is impractical because new aircraft exporters such as Brazil and China are entering the global market who would not be party to any such agreement."

Which is why Delta is focusing on widebodies first.


"Those countries already offer much more liberal credit terms to potential importers of their goods, and would quickly take market share from U.S. producers of aircraft if given the opportunity to tip the scales with predatory financing."

Another reason to try to negotiate a ban on these credit agencies: it hurts US and EU exports.


"It appears the company is trying to improve its position in the marketplace by leveraging conservative values it doesn’t even share. "

Why is the author trying to politicize the issue?


"The reason Boeing taps Ex-Im financing so frequently is because it makes the most expensive capital goods that the U.S. exports, and those goods are in demand in many places where private-sector lenders are reluctant to extend credit."

Because of credit risk. . .


" If Ex-Im programs didn’t exist, those buyers would still obtain planes, but they would all be purchased from Boeing’s main rival using European export credits — dealing a devastating blow to America’s biggest exporter."

The author already forgot about the part that involves the US and the EU he mentioned earlier in the article?


"Because the bank’s lending for widebody airliner exports has essentially a zero default rate, it is the most stable part of the institution’s loan portfolio. The low risk associated with financing aircraft exports enables the bank to take bigger risks in loaning to small businesses that wish to export. "

People used to say similar things about the Housing market.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10462 times:

Quote:
"Third, the reason Delta can’t get the same loan terms as some foreign carriers isn’t because of Ex-Im programs, it’s because Delta has a low credit rating. Under the most recent Aircraft Sector Understanding agreed to by U.S. and European nations, it costs borrowers significantly more to use government export credits for their aircraft purchases than it would to use commercial financing, but borrowers with good credit ratings like Southwest Airlines will always get better terms than borrowers with inferior ratings. So Delta’s real problem is its junk-bond credit rating, and what it is actually complaining about is the normal functioning of market forces — which favor companies with good credit histories."

To take from the Lufthansa press release. .

"Emirates, by contrast, pays merely 3.5 percent interest for financing over 12 years through export credit guarantes. . "

Emirates should have little to no problem in getting very good private sector financing. . . yet they still went with the, yes, sweetheart loans provided by the likes of the Exim bank.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10387 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
They kind of have to limit themselves to only complaining about widebody jets for obvious reasons.

Which is silly since they have a number of widebody a/c that were actually purchased from Airbus, now that they are one company I'm sure they can look up the financial arrangements the former NW had made when they purchased the a/c which still have maintenance and spare part addendum's running.

It is admirable that DL does not want to purchase Airbus a/c and want to stick with Boeing, what they should do is what other airlines do, go to Boeing and ask for a deal, rather than lambasting the US Government who is doing what it can to get US products sold. Private companies like DL could care less what the employment situation or trade imbalance is in their home country, quite rightly they are looking for the best deal.

DL is free to run a competition with Airbus and Boeing for its next order, if they squeeze hard enough the discounts may wipe out the imbalance of their lower credit rating.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10218 times:

Look who wrote the article... a defense contractor. What's the largest defense contractor in the states? Boeing.

Things that make you go hmmmm...



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10012 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 10):
What's the largest defense contractor in the states? Boeing.
http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011.aspx
I think it still holds true as of today.
Boeing has been on the lossing end of the military stick for a number of projects, F-22, F-35, can't get additional F-18's or F-15's sold, good thing they are also in the sat business. The P8 program is on schedule and on budget so no rips there, as for the tanker contract, they are probably going to take a bath, so they better get their commercial sale in.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9746 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):

From the link in Reply #6:

"They are also not permitted to draw on similar U.S. support when purchasing Boeing aircraft, be- cause the two countries are subject to what is known as the “home country rule.”"


If Lufthansa can't run to Boeing, I'm pretty sure Delta can't just run to Airbus either.

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
go to Boeing and ask for a deal, rather than lambasting the US Government who is doing what it can to get US products sold.

It is not Boeing who is handing DL the short-end of the stick. US and European airlines are being wronged by their own governments.

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
DL is free to run a competition with Airbus and Boeing for its next order, if they squeeze hard enough the discounts may wipe out the imbalance of their lower credit rating.

That's also incorrect:

"Southwest Airlines, which enjoys the best credit rating among all the airlines, can finance its aircraft at an interest rate of 10.5 percent over a period of three years. Emirates, by contrast, pays merely 3.5 percent interest for financing over 12 years through export credit guar- antees, even though the airline does not have an official credit rating."

http://presse.lufthansa.com/fileadmi...ief-October-2010-ExportCredits.pdf





[Edited 2012-04-23 14:24:54]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9186 times:

Nothing but a wag the Dog tactic.....!

User currently offlinecrj200faguy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8954 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
What is your defense of JV participation by Delta using planes financed with EXIM loans? The world is so global now for the legacies, there is no moral high ground.

Mayor is a tried and true Deltoid. Deltoids never let hyprocrisy get in the way of what they want. world domination by the widget.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
What is your defense of JV participation by
Delta using planes financed with EXIM loans?


Let me preface this by saying that I don't necessarily agree with DL's view here. Having said that, Delta's only JVs, to my knowledge, are with AF/KL. The Large Aircraft Sector Understanding agreement signed between the US and Europe strictly forbade export credit agency (ECA) guarantees being provided in Boeing or Airbus "home markets," therefore the European ECAs cannot guarantee financings for Airbus aircraft sold to U.S. carriers and ExIm cannot guarantee Boeing aircraft sold to Germany, France, the UK, et al. So Delta isn't participating in a JV with ExIm financed aircraft.

My sense is that Boeing orders to Emirates, Air India, Etihad, et al. that are backed by ExIm have nothing to do with those carriers' abilities to secure financing on the street. My sense is that ExIm is used as a carrot by our government to incentivize or reward these countries in a subtle way for actions they may have taken that are in the United States' strategic interests. "Hey Dubai, thanks for letting us use your Emirate as a neutral zone for us to fight a subtle cold war with Iran. Although it isn't in your interests or our interests for us to thank you publicly, here's an ECA backed loan for your Boeing order. Same for you Abu Dhabi, and India, thanks for your help with Pakistan." It's a diplomatic tool. I think that's what Delta and ATA is kind of missing here. Also, if this issuch a big deal, why isn't UA or AA on board with it?

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 14):
Mayor is a tried and true Deltoid. Deltoids never let hyprocrisy get in the way of what they want. world domination by the widget.

The corollary to that argument is that many folks on this board don't let the facts get in the way of their misstatements and rhetoric...

[Edited 2012-04-23 16:13:45]

[Edited 2012-04-23 16:15:03]

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8567 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):

If Lufthansa can't run to Boeing, I'm pretty sure Delta can't just run to Airbus either.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
That's also incorrect:

"Southwest Airlines, which enjoys the best credit rating among all the airlines, can finance its aircraft at an interest rate of 10.5 percent over a period of three years. Emirates, by contrast, pays merely 3.5 percent interest for financing over 12 years through export credit guar- antees, even though the airline does not have an official credit rating."

You are talking about the credit worthiness of the airline, when airlines runs competiton between Airbus and Boeing they are looking for discounts, best prices and deals, as I said, maybe the deal may be good enough to compensate for their inability to get lower interest rates, no right or wrong there. AA got pretty good deals from Airbus and Boeing, heck they ran into Chpt.11 and their deals are still intact, existing creditors should be angry, but that's another topic for another thread.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
It is not Boeing who is handing DL the short-end of the stick. US and European airlines are being wronged by their own governments.

We all agree that they are barking up the wrong tree, but I cannot agree that the airlines are being wronged by their governments, neither Boeing nor Airbus are complaining about government assistance which got them to where they are, including their current flagship products, so why exactly should airlines outside of the USA and EU not benefit?
If the USA and the EU were so concerned about other countries they would have attempted to include them in their private agreement, assumption being what it is, I would say that they never expected third world or developing countries to be in better financial positions than themselves in such a short period of time. of that their airlines would not be the driving force behind airline purchases so soon.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8221 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
I'd say that airlines using EXIM financing of Boeing jets aren't hurting Delta all that much. LOL.

Anderson has said it put them in a 4M a year hole on its JFK-BOM flights. He also said it was a main factor of them pulling out. 4M for a single route is pretty big.

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
so Delta receives the benefit of that financing on its own flights

Only on KL flown JV flights. You'll note that DL is larger than KL across the Atlantic so its hurt the JV as well.
Also how about India?China? South America? Middle east? its not really a Europe thing because they do the same for Airbus. Its got a lot more to do with Asia and the Middle East. (and it doesn't help that a good bit of airlines that get these deals have a endless supply of cash. Again look at AI. They are down right impossible to compete with already and they are getting a 4M advantage from the US government.)



yep.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8077 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
"The aim of Delta’s campaign is to prevent the Export-Import Bank, an independent federal agency, from providing financing for foreign purchases of widebody airliners built by Boeing. Delta management says such planes can be used to compete against U.S. carriers on international routes, and that a government agency should not be helping foreigners to do that."

I'm sorry, but I just lost a tremendous amount of respect for Delta. I mean comon - seriously???

What if Airbus put out an aircraft that would perform 50% better than any other product. Would they still sing the same tune? I think not.

[Edited 2012-04-23 17:03:20]


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7903 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 17):
Anderson has said it put them in a 4M a year hole on its JFK-BOM flights. He also said it was a main factor of them pulling out. 4M for a single route is pretty big.

Delta had filed for an injunction in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to stop the Ex-Im guarantees to Air India and the Court held that "any injury to plaintiffs (Delta) that may be caused by the delivery of one or two planes to Air India is, at this stage, wholly speculative." The ruling also said that "if Delta had to cut every nonstop route where it competed with ExIm Bank-backed foreign carriers the lost revenue would represent less than 7% of Delta's business." I think the bigger question here is that, since Delta was competing with Air India on the BOM-JFK segment, how did Delta lose on that route purely on the O/D between BOM and JFK, especially when you consider the power of the JFK hub and the connectivity it provides onward. Delta wasn't selling just BOM-JFK, Delta was selling BOM to any number of destinations via the United States via JFK.

[Edited 2012-04-23 17:25:23]

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12892 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7855 times:
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I'm torn on this. On one hand, I do not want to make the playing field unfair. On the other, Ex-Im financing of aircraft (and other goods) has been beneficial to all. Perhaps the answer is to allow Ex-Im financing by the US *and* Europe within the US and Europe. This would allow the *weak* airlines to finance *fast* fleet replacement that would cut oil imports into the two economic blocks. (Ok, not much... but a little.) This would have to be at a set scheme.

For example:
1. Minimum interest rate of X. (say 5%?) Yes, this would be a boost from current rates for some customers.
2. Maximum loan duration of 12 years. (Or 10 or 15... but not infinite).
3. Maximum loan to value of? (I would say 90%.)

Enforce the above provisions on all Ex-IM loans. The idea of killing off Ex-Im financing to Boeing? That would be unlikely.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
"Emirates, by contrast, pays merely 3.5 percent interest for financing over 12 years through export credit guarantes. . "

No wonder EK rotates their fleet often. They're being paid to rotate the fleet.   Oh wait, that is what these loans are intended for...

On the other hand, these EK-IM loans are part of the deals EK negotiates. It is one of the reasons they are the largest 777 customer and the largest A380 customer. This is the prisoner's dilemma where it might be best if the EU and US stopped the financing; but only if they did it together with a transition.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Emirates should have little to no problem in getting very good private sector financing. . . yet they still went with the, yes, sweetheart loans provided by the likes of the Exim bank.

Why would they pay more? Also, in 2009, that was *not* the case for EK. Also, for now, the French banks that often enable aircraft financing are having issues. Without Ex-Im financing to 'smooth the process,' the 777 line would have to be slowed with a sharp reduction in overtime and slowing hiring. Not a wise thing to do in an election year.

This is going to be interesting.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7297 times:

sorry to be so blunt, but delta really is run by a bunch of dicks.

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7121 times:

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 21):

So is every airline in the US and most in Europe too then? Delta is just the spear head, IIRC almost every US airline was backing Delta, and the Euro carriers have also been on record that they want it stopped on that side with Airbus.
*sigh* yes those assholes. Should shoot them for trying to make money and run a business   .

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):

All I'm saying is this what Anderson has said. I personally believe the playing field should be leveled. Let the US carriers use Ex-Im or shut it down. Don't really care which way it works.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 18):
What if Airbus put out an aircraft that would perform 50% better than any other product. Would they still sing the same tune? I think not.

You do know Delta has airbus in the fleet and likely got the benefit from the EU?
So in other words, yes, Delta would still be singing the same tune.



yep.
User currently offlinetockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7085 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 22):
So is every airline in the US and most in Europe too then? Delta is just the spear head, IIRC almost every US airline was backing Delta, and the Euro carriers have also been on record that they want it stopped on that side with Airbus.
*sigh* yes those assholes. Should shoot them for trying to make money and run a business

yeah, they're trying to maximize their own profits while minimizing the profits of one of their closest partners, boeing. which makes them looks like a colossal collection of dicks, yes.

there is a thing called "the greater good". i know delta has no interest in it, but whatever.

i wonder how profitable DL would be today if they didn't have such a strong partner here in the US building all those fancy aircraft for them to fly around?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6746 times:

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 23):

Delta is the one losing money right now because of this. Your "greater good" is coming at the expense of Delta. Boeing and the Exim bank are currently (not trying to) hurting Delta's bottom line.

It is not Delta and Lufthansa who are being dicks. Delta is merely asking for a level playing field.

[Edited 2012-04-23 20:07:56]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 catiii : I understand you're just repeating what he said, but I also recognize that he has an agenda and is trying to make his argument and he certainly needs
26 mayor : JV or not, they are still individual airlines, free to do what they want. DL has no control over what they do, although they probably don't like the
27 gigneil : This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, literally, in my entire life. And I've spent 11 years on A.net now. Boeing sells more aircraft outside th
28 mayor : What's wrong with MAKING TRADE HAPPEN on a level playing field?
29 gigneil : Frankly, it won't happen. You will destroy Boeing's chances of winning business. And the conversations about the ExIm bank provides superior financing
30 gigneil : Rant continues: The point of the Ex Im Bank is TO level the playing field, and 85% of the Ex Im Bank's transactions are to create opportunity for smal
31 gigneil : Final rant: PROVE IT. You can't. Nobody can. Not even Delta. NS
32 Simes : Hang on...... this finance allows airlines to have aircraft built by Boeing in the good old USA and utilise Boeing's supply chain, without this would
33 par13del : So what would be DL complaint if the government of India had said they did not want DL on the BOM route, they "preferred" another US carrier? Nations
34 Post contains images enilria : I think part of that is also that Emirates survival is essentially supported by the full faith and credit of the country of U.A.E., while Delta filed
35 lightsaber : Agreed. But DL is rightfully frustrated that they do not have access to similar financing. What is the solution? I have my proposal in reply 20. Ex-I
36 PPVRA : Just because they decided not to join DL on this unlikely to succeed lawsuit does not mean they do not fully support Delta's efforts. This is so obvi
37 PPVRA : The Lufthansa press release compares Emirates to Southwest Airlines, the airline with the highest credit rating in the world . So it really has nothi
38 Mir : Perhaps, but the question is whether the benefits to the various US manufacturers involved in producing Boeing aircraft are worth more overall to the
39 mayor : It's not just DL in the mix in the JV.......you also have AF & AZ, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure of the mechanics of the JV, but I would imagine
40 PPVRA : The most important argument against this is that you are sacrificing your justice system for economic gain. Less importantly, Boeing is about to star
41 Mir : That is true of a non-laissez-faire capitalist economy. In which case the program can be reviewed and altered. But it's worth remembering that many o
42 strfyr51 : the EX-IM Bank finances at rates no American Carriier can get from a Bank themselves, Delta argues that if they CAN get their OWN financing then they
43 Post contains links enilria : Is this about EK or EXIM? Government owned airlines have been around since the industry began. Is Delta proposing that also be outlawed because it is
44 mayor : What I'm saying is that if it pertains to the JV, all the members of the JV have to agree (I would assume). If it doesn't pertain to the JV, then the
45 PPVRA : EXIM. There is a difference when somebody else's government is running an airline and when your own government is supporting your competition. Even t
46 strfyr51 : OR?!? The EX-IM bank shoulf finance Airplanes for the USA airlines at the SAME RATE!!
47 par13del : Boeing sells less a/c to AF than they do to airlines in the USA, so I'm not sure I see the correlation. The bulk of Boeing sales are not in the USA o
48 PPVRA : The claim was that there would be "zero" exports if EXIM was not available. It was an obviously false claim.
49 catiii : And yet they have been very clear in alerting policy makers that they have no part in this, no dog in this fight, and this is Delta going alone. Not
50 Post contains links PPVRA : "The Air Transport Association of America, which represents Delta and other U.S. airlines, sued in November to block $3.4 billion in Eximbank loan gu
51 catiii : Have you ever done business within a trade association? Not every member has to agree with what the association is doing, especially if the Chair of
52 PPVRA : Fair enough. The policy harms AA and UA the same way it harms DL, LH, AZ, AF, etc. They may not support DL's strategy, but they know they are being p
53 catiii : I don't disagree with you at all on that point. It is a curious thing that they're taking the alternate side on the argument because they are equally
54 Post contains images mandala499 : Guess what, Delta can always order Airbuses with the same thing through the European Credit Agency. EU's equivalent of the EXIM bank. Didn't Northwes
55 gigneil : I read it. Its wrong. NS
56 gigneil : If they want better financing, they should make an effort to qualify for it. NS
57 catiii : No, they can't. As I said above the LASU agreement signed between the US and EU strictly forbade these guarantees being provided in Boeing or Airbus
58 par13del : So here's another question, who and how are the discounts given by the OEM's monitored? Start with the list prices, where exactly does that number co
59 Post contains images mayor : I'm sure that Air India was "qualified", correct?
60 Bravo1Six : Except the LASU agreement hasn't existed since late 2007. And there was never anything set out in the agreement itself which specified a "home market
61 tockeyhockey : did delta ever actively stake out a position that would have destroyed those company's bottom lines? i don't think they did. but they are doing it ri
62 Burkhard : Fact is EXIM and Hermes are multi-million $ help, backed by tax payer in the end, for Emirates and Co. Delta starts to feel the pressure of these, and
63 flipdewaf : Its ok if they do fail as well because they just bob along the bottom in Ch.11 till they work it all out anyway, HOORAY FOR THE FREE MARKET!!! Fred
64 Post contains images PPVRA : No they are not. On the contrary, it is companies like Delta, Lufthansa and Air France who are seeing their bottom lines attacked with these policies
65 catiii : Not exactly true. When the Ex-Im Bank was initially established in 1934 it was capitalized by an appropriation of $1 billion from the U.S. Treasury.
66 PPVRA : If the bank ends up at the brink of failure, it would most likely be bailed out by the taxpayers. The backing may not be explicit, but I doubt it wou
67 gigneil : No logical human being believes any of this is true. This is pander to the less educated, and Delta knows how to sell it. Should Emirates qualify? No.
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