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DTW Wants To Get DL Or EK Service To DXB  
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11933 times:

An article appeared in today's Detroit Free Press about DTW officials pushing to get service to DXB on DL or EK. They've apparently has some discussions and are setting up an online petition.

We all know that it is part of the air service developer's role to help push for new service and try to engage the airlines and the community.

Any thoughts on this? I would find it hard to believe that DTW could get on the list higher than ORD. Granted there is a very large Indian and Middle Eastern population Metro Detroit but not sure how much of that really translates into VFR demand.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012042...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11891 times:
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This campaign began shortly before QR announced they were starting service to DTW. Surprisingly, there is no mention of that anywhere in the article or the metro airport website. I find it funny that they make mention of the A380, as demand to DTW would never justify anything more than a 777. Increased service from DTW to the Middle East is certainly justified, but I don't know that DXB is necessary with the launch of DOH.

User currently onlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 608 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11869 times:

Unless industry picks up in Detroit, I don't think EK would want to test the waters there just yet. Im sure DL are the same, however with connections, DL might just work.

Just my two cents.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
Unless industry picks up in Detroit, I don't think EK would want to test the waters there just yet. Im sure DL are the same, however with connections, DL might just work.

From the petition site, DTW has 250 people a day traveling between Detroit and India. I say this is enough traffic to "test the waters".
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/669/4...s-demand-detroit-to-dubai-service/

[Edited 2012-04-23 11:28:30]

User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12100 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11661 times:
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DTW has a large Arab population and right now I am sure they are using AF, KL, LH and RJ. I know that when BA served LHR from DTW they carried a large amount of the India traffic. NW use to route them via AMS to India on the DC10's. I could easily see an A380 three times a week working.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11663 times:

I must've missed the QR announcement. What are their plans?

Granted there is the RJ service.

India service is challenging, not due to demand but due to yields.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12100 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11615 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
India service is challenging, not due to demand but due to yields.

You hit the nail on the head right there.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11508 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
I must've missed the QR announcement. What are their plans?

Read here
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...icago-as-787-deliveries-begin.html


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11345 times:

Qatar has not announced Detroit. Bloomberg misquoted a QR official. Qatar is considering Detroit, that is all.


a.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11158 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 4):
DTW has a large Arab population and right now I am sure they are using AF, KL, LH and RJ. I know that when BA served LHR from DTW they carried a large amount of the India traffic. NW use to route them via AMS to India on the DC10's. I could easily see an A380 three times a week working.

I personally don't.

DTW is honestly a mixed bag - one that somewhat reminds me of DFW in ways.

Due to geographic positioning, the role that it plays within the DL/SkyTeam network, and thanks to a few business ties, DTW can support quite a few intercontinental flights to Asia, Europe, and Latin America, and perhaps 1-2 to the Middle East, but it's definitely got limits and boundaries.

I know that a lot of the DL flights to Asia this Winter are going down to 4-5 weekly, including DTW-PEK/HKG/ICN.

Further, the BA flight to DTW was axed due to poor yields, and RJ only flies twice a week (via MTL). LH goes 6W with a 3-class configured A330.

And, for the most part, DTW people can pretty much get to a lot of places via NRT or AMS.

The latter is particularly huge given that DL is currently flying 4X on DTWAMS, offering 1,062 seats DAILY.

Yes, there is a large population of people from the Middle East/Indian subcontinent in the DTW area, but I'm not entirely these will justify an EK or DL flight to DXB. I really don't think there is room, nor a need for it at the moment.

DTWDXB involves a lot of backtracking for many of these people. Plus, I can't see why DL would want to launch this alongside the pre-existing ATLDXB flight considering there is no onward connecting carrier beyond DXB. Surely, there cannot be much DTW-DXB O&D traffic. Further, DL encountered cannibalization issues when they had ATLTLV running alongside JFKTLV, and was forced to ditch ATLTLV. I'm guessing this scenario could potentially occur again with both ATL and DTW doing DXB as well.

Also, I cannot see why EK would be in a rush to launch this route, just for the sake of capturing India traffic. Considering how SEA has performed below expectations, EK may be reconsidering its phase-in strategy of going for the smaller, medium tier US markets over the ones they have yet to tap, such as ORD or MIA.

Of course DTW officials will push for new air service, it's their job; however, that will only materialize if there is a mutual benefit for the carrier which I don't think exists at this point.

Not saying its impossible to see a carrier offering daily service to the Middle East from DTW anytime soon, but I a). don't think that DL is the solution and b). don't think that it is going to bring in an A380, at the extreme. If I had to take a bet, I would guess first on QR, then potentially TK.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12100 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11159 times:
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Qatar Airways Ltd. plans to start flights to Atlanta, Chicago, Boston and Detroit within the next year, doubling its U.S. network, as the carrier begins receiving Boeing Co. (BA) 787 Dreamliners.

The articles says they are planning not considering.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11089 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 10):

Qatar Airways Ltd. plans to start flights to Atlanta, Chicago, Boston and Detroit within the next year, doubling its U.S. network, as the carrier begins receiving Boeing Co. (BA) 787 Dreamliners.

The articles says they are planning not considering.


The article is wrong and misquotes an official. Notice how there is absolutely no other article on the subject?



a.
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12100 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11059 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9):
Further, the BA flight to DTW was axed due to poor yields, and RJ only flies twice a week (via MTL). LH goes 6W with a 3-class configured A330.



It was poor yields since BA had no feed on the DTW end that is for sure. RJ flying only twice a week assures them of full flights and high prices no need to discount. And the DL 4 times is surely not all going to AMS. I do not see DL offering DXB, I believe it will be Qatar before EK. Also last the Indian travelers will endure back tracking for a low fare so that really is not an issue.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2183 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11000 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 12):
It was poor yields since BA had no feed on the DTW end that is for sure.

BA also serves SAN, DEN, IAH, PHX, PHL, BWI + a host of other US cities with non O/W hub feed at the end and all of them have weathered a pretty terrible global revenue environment without being dealt the axe.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 12):
Also last the Indian travelers will endure back tracking for a low fare so that really is not an issue.

Off of what are you basing this generalization? India-bound PAX may be low-yielding and price sensitive but its not like they're all blind sheep that will follow irregular routings adding travel time just for the sake of saving a few bucks!!! haha.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12435 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

I think that given the rates of growth of M/E carriers, it's only a matter of time before one of them flies to DTW; it's clearly a question of "when", not "if". I think QR seems most likely; they'll use a smaller capacity aircraft (788) to test the water and then increase to a 77W in due course. Other airlines might enter the market, but in one sense, that'll depend on how aggressively and effectively QR builds its presence there; if it's slow, it risks letting others in. I have no doubt that the market is there.

User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3264 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

To those trying to justify EK or QR service based on existing demand, I ask...

Why would those airlines start doing that now?

At least one of them will start service to DTW in the next year or two. The VFR ties to the Middle East and India alone ensure this. As to the low-yields, which airlines do you think caused them?


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
The article is wrong and misquotes an official. Notice how there is absolutely no other article on the subject?

There are five or six articles from all over the gulf. Heres just a couple. I guess they were misquoted too.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar...rways-expand-us-routes-453832.html

http://qatarsun.com/


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19568 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10754 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 3):
From the petition site, DTW has 250 people a day traveling between Detroit and India. I say this is enough traffic to "test the waters".

That's enough to fill a 763. Those people might go via any number of routes. Remember that EK doesn't serve India non-stop from anywhere other than DXB, so from a routes point of view, 250 pax/day does not even merit EK's smallest a/c (A330), even if they could get 100% of the market share.

Recall that DL/KL do serve India already. In this case, the request is specifically for a non-stop to DXB and I am skeptical about the demand for such a destination.


User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10277 times:

EK chose DFW and SEA over ORD. No reason why DTW wouldn't be ahead of ORD.

User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10129 times:

Despite the otherwise dismal job market, there's a growing shortage of engineers in Metro Detroit. Additionally, projection models show an alarming shortage of doctors, surgeons, specialists, etc. as the area's large population of baby boomers age. Many of these positions in Metro Detroit are already being filled by Middle Eastern, Indian (and some other Asian) immigrants; the trend's only expected to accelerate in the future. This is reflected in most long-term population models. This is also a very strong VFR segment. We're certainly not talking about Minnesota's Humong population waving its Minnesota-state welfare checks at Delta...


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 12):
Also last the Indian travelers will endure back tracking for a low fare so that really is not an issue.

There is no backtracking involved if you are going to India via the Middle-East.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Remember that EK doesn't serve India non-stop from anywhere other than DXB,

Are there any destinations that EK serves nonstop other than DXB? What is your point?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Recall that DL/KL do serve India already. In this case, the request is specifically for a non-stop to DXB and I am skeptical about the demand for such a destination.

DL/KL only serve BOM and DEL. EK serves other cities in India from DXB.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9):
Further, the BA flight to DTW was axed due to poor yields...

BA did not axe Detroit due to poor yields. The route was cancelled after BA lost a series of corporate contracts, most prominently that of Pfizer (after it closed its Ann Arbor research center). BA, which had flown the route nearly twice-daily with a mixture of 777 and 744 equipment less than 7 years prior, had been beat: LH was adding a second-daily flight to FRA.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17443 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 15):
The VFR ties to the Middle East and India alone ensure this

Most of the DTW demand is centered around the Levant, which is a bit of a backhaul for any of the GCC carriers and would be tough to price competitively against the better connections over Europe. If TK were ever to start DTW those traffic flows would be shot. It's also so seasonal it often looks like MSPCUN in terms of seasonality. The India stuff can be connected any number of different ways and there is little business traffic. In the case of EK I wonder if they really want to fill the limited supply of India seats with more longhaul ethnic American traffic.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 15):
To those trying to justify EK or QR service based on existing demand, I ask...

I'd bet EK is too smart to start DTW any time soon, but QR is not  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10010 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 16):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
The article is wrong and misquotes an official. Notice how there is absolutely no other article on the subject?

There are five or six articles from all over the gulf. Heres just a couple. I guess they were misquoted too.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar...rways-expand-us-routes-453832.html

http://qatarsun.com/


Other news sources that are simply phishing the same Bloomberg article don't count.

I spoke to somebody who was at the press conference. QR did not in anyway, shape or form announce Detroit, or any other new market. It gave examples of possible 787 routes, that's it.



a.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7445 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

DL might make it work, but unless EK does some sort of codeshare with DL it won't happen.

A good idea though. I'm pretty sure the 77L can make it to DXB 



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
25 RWA380 : A DL flight to DXB would be a disaster, yes they have connections at DTW, but DXB is really not a "destination" it has become what it is in the aviat
26 CompensateMe : I think you're wrong. Post-merger, certainly no other city has benefited from an increase in intercontinental service as DTW has. Heck, ATL lost its
27 luv2fly : I do not remember them flying the route twice daily, I do remember the 747, 777 and finally the 767 being flown. Also remember for teh longest time t
28 NASCARAirforce : They were doing it on the 747-400 right after 9/11 actually when NWA opened the new terminal. I forgot the flight number but it usually arrived aroun
29 PHX787 : IIRC, there is already a flight to DXB from there (or it might be JFK...I'll check when I have a computer handy)
30 CompensateMe : I clipped an article in the late 1990s/early 2000s announcing a seasonal upguage in DTW-LHR service (10x weekly, I believe). The article cited the se
31 jetlanta : Which, of course, makes a flight to a Middle East hub even more attractive.
32 IrishAyes : Right, but not if it is done via DXB, because the backtracking problem is still a relevant bottleneck.
33 jetlanta : I just don't think the backtracking is that relevant to people heading to those destinations. In fact, connecting in a place like DXB might be prefer
34 MaverickM11 : The passengers might not care, but EK might not want to take them 1000+ miles further than the EU carriers for the same fare.
35 Post contains links PHX787 : DL does actually have service to DXB using a 77L IIRC. Not sure if it is daily or not though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_International_Airport
36 RWA380 : I do apologize for not making my comment more understood, as being a bit sarcastic, I was trying to prove my point that DL would need the feed of an
37 CompensateMe : Non-optimal routings are irrelevant if the carrier feels the service can be profitable. In fact, the practice is pretty common. For example, DL has b
38 panamair : Except when they step aboard that Middle Eastern airline called Emirates and transit through DXB, they stand a much better chance of dealing with any
39 MaverickM11 : Sure but EK would get 30% less unit revenue for DTWDXBBEY than DTWCDGBEY if it's selling the same fare as AF. That's a huge difference and I don't th
40 thenoflyzone : KL doesn't serve DTW. One thing is for sure though, if EK or QR start DTW, that puts into jeapordy RJ and to a certain extent LH. The latter already s
41 Post contains images CompensateMe : It's most definitely not "for sure." LH's bread-and-butter is the premium automotive traffic between Detroit and Europe (hence the driving reason beh
42 CompensateMe : All that would be relevant would be the belief that the airline could serve the route profitably. And the consensus among many Middle Easterners in t
43 dtw9 : LH always backs down to 6 times a week in the winter months, but ups it to daily during the Spring/Summer/Fall. Cargo is particularly strong between
44 NASCARAirforce : Air France wasn't flying to DTW back then. Northwest wasn't even in Skyteam yet, they were in their own little KLM,Continental, Alitalia Northwest al
45 SYfan100 : If you have 250 people flying daily to India then wouldn't it be better to just have a Airbus 330 type aircraft. Now throw in a connection with maybe
46 Post contains images CompensateMe : Read what I wrote one more time . But you no longer live in the area.
47 CompensateMe : I'm not certain I'm following your points. DTW's seeking regular service to the DXB, not necessarily daily. Service need not operate daily in order t
48 OOer : Doesn't JFK-DXB make more sense for DL? Yes there is competition but the market is also quite a bit bigger and DL offers many connections out of JFK.
49 NASCARAirforce : I think Delta should have really reconsidered putting off the orders of the 787s that Northwest would have been taking delivery of pretty shortly if N
50 LAXdude1023 : Dont think the Northeast is the target market for Delta on ATL-DXB. You get a lot of people from Atlanta and the South traveling beyond DXB on that f
51 PHX787 : If i'm not mistaken, DL codeshares with KL and AF's flight from their respected airports to DXB
52 DTWLAX : And go against the EK A380? No thanks... EK will kill DL Connecting in AMS is much better than connecting in JFK! ATL-India may be a large market but
53 LAXdude1023 : Well, for whatever reason it works. They are getting beyond DXB traffic and the route is doing very well. Not only that, it is keeping the Gulf carri
54 lightsaber : EK will partner with about anyone. The risk is they will eventually enter the market. e.g., DXB-IAD Lightsaber
55 PHX787 : I keep hearing rumors about them going into an alliance, but I'm assuming given what you said, that's not gonna happen, right?
56 DTWLAX : Do you have any source to prove that? The route may be doing well for connections beyond ATL but I doubt DL is getting enough connections beyond DXB.
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