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Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 31186 times:

The linked article suggests that the order may be for both 737NG and 737 MAX.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...ively-with-boeing-on-200-jets.html

Quote:
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

Aircraft Options
Some of the planes in the 200-jet total may be options for future aircraft, said the people. The value of the order may rise once United settles on terms, because the 737-800 is less expensive than the so-called MAX model with upgraded engines. Airlines typically buy at a discount.

United, the world’s largest airline, is upgrading a single- aisle fleet that includes Boeing 757-200s, with an average age of 18.2 years, and 737-500s that average 16.6 years old. Boeing no longer makes either model.

191 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17079 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 31167 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer. It seems that the only Airbus UA will operate in the future is the A359.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 31157 times:
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Interesting if Airbus is out of the running. Assuming that is the case, we're just left with the usual n/b order:

200 of the 737/737Max
Subtype will be flexible and designated by UA at a given point in time.

They'll evaluate the -8Max and -9Max as a 757 replacement for a majority of its missions (domestic). For TATL, we'll likely see the 788 taking those routes over along with the 763's. Yes it means a capacity bump but they will also be able to carry a lot more cargo. Not sure about the difference in efficiency but since there will be no 757 replacement, airlines will have to make do with the 788.


User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 31035 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer.

I am still in the camp that when the time comes, the A321NEO will become a better replacement for the 752 than the 737-9. UA will need a lot more than 200 NB so while it would appear Boeing did a great job keeping UA this time, I wouldn't be shocked to see a follow up Airbus order down the road.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 30941 times:
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Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 3):
I am still in the camp that when the time comes, the A321NEO will become a better replacement for the 752 than the 737-9.

I agree when it comes to operating at the far right edge of the 757-200's payload-range chart, but perhaps UA doesn't need that. I believe that CO operated 757s TATL and to Hawaii, UA used 767s for those missions. Now that they are merged, I could see the new UA choosing to operate the 767 on those missions. In such a scenario, the 737-9 has plenty of capacity and range to handle the domestic 757 missions.



Therefore, this may very well be a case of availability. Airbus may not have the slots - especially A320neo slots - available in the number and timeframe that UA needs.

[Edited 2012-04-23 13:35:00]

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4660 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 30835 times:

Yes, Smisek loves narrowbodys, but what about a serious widebody order ?


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12521 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 30840 times:

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't be shocked to see a follow up Airbus order down the road.

Frankly, I would be; UA may have ordered 319/320s a few years back, but CO people are now in the driving seat. The 737 (and 757) have served CO will when they turned themselves around - and since then - so they have a strong psychological link to Boeing; this definitely works to Boeing's advantage.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 30843 times:

My speculation;

50 737-900ER (NG's to complete the domestic UA 757 replacement, SAVE the PS and ETOPS PMUA 757s)

150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30606 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
so they have a strong psychological link to Boeing; this definitely works to Boeing's advantage

A valid point but at the end of the day , a big variable that plays a part in fleet decisions is price ... if Airbus had come in with an amazing price , I think emotional connections become null likewise what STITCH had mentioned, it could have been slot availability. I think the 737-8 is perfect for UA and this just makes great sense. I guess I just feel like the 737-8 and A321MAX combo is optimal based on the future predicted performance.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
50 737-900ER (NG's to complete the domestic UA 757 replacement, SAVE the PS and ETOPS PMUA 757s)

150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)

I also see 10-15 737-7s in there for flight ops out of SNA etc


User currently offlineHmelawyer From United States of America, joined May 2011, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30493 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)


Although to save on deposits they will likely all be initially ordered at 737-7MAX with the right to upgrade by a certain date, much like the 737NG order is structured. This is why CO always showed a large number of outstanding 73G orders even though they were not taking any of that particular model.


User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30362 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):

Frankly, I would be; UA may have ordered 319/320s a few years back, but CO people are now in the driving seat.

People say that a lot, but A. Is that actually true, & B. Would it matter if so?

If it really is just a matter of slot availibility, I see no reason why Airbus would be out of the running for NEOs at a later time. As mentioned above, the 21NEO is a far more viable candidate for TATL missions than the 739M. I would add that it's also better than using up 767s & 788s on the smaller, thinner routes as well.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30331 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
Yes, Smisek loves narrowbodys, but what about a serious widebody order ?

....other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

NS


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3159 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30303 times:

Does anybody know why UA stopped negotiating with Airbus for this?

User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30282 times:

Surely the folks at UA have read the thread about the superiority of the GTF on the NEO and know that engine is not available on the 737 MAX. What's wrong with them?   

User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30299 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer.

I realize this can't be the only reason (or any reason for that matter) for UA talking with Boeing, but their HQs are about 10- or 15-minutes walking distance apart. If it works out then perhaps this can be a positive example of the "Chicago way" of getting things done!


User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30269 times:

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 10):
21NEO is a far more viable candidate for TATL missions than the 739M

Honestly , I don't think either of them are going to make a viable 752 replacement, I just think the 321NEO will get closer. But over long stage lengths - I expect the NEO to perform better than the 73-9.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
.other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

I think EK is making us spoiled ... we want big 75+ A380 and 748i orders. I saw the Garuda order for 15 A330s and though to myself eh ... boring.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4660 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30229 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
....other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

Yes.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5193 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30228 times:

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 15):
But over long stage lengths - I expect the NEO to perform better than the 73-9.

Based on what? Not being sarcastic or rhetorical here either.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30195 times:

In this case, welcome back to the real world  

NS


User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30201 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 17):
Based on what? Not being sarcastic or rhetorical here either.

From my understanding , the NEOs have bigger engines VS the MAX which adds weight but also makes them more efficient over longer flights. The MAX is lighter which helps it on shorter flights but burns more fuel on longer flights because it has smaller engines.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6776 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30155 times:

If this is true, what's the possibility of the 25 A350 wearing UA colors.. it would truely be an orphan (albeit large) fleet.. could we see UA cancelling or selling off these aircraft without ever seeing them? Or will they actually make it into the fleet?

I'm sure there is some who will say the 350 can't be replaced well by a Boeing product, but i'm sure UA could have slightly less seating but more frequency to make up.

Just wondering..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7311 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30154 times:
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Surprised UA is considering Boeing over Airbus. Dump all the old nb and I'm a fan of the 757 on internationals out of EWR over a crusty PMUA 763.


I miss the old Anet.
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30062 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 20):
If this is true, what's the possibility of the 25 A350 wearing UA colors

99.9% , they are perfect for the UA fleet. Efficient, right sized, and UA supposedly got great purchase and financing terms and will be coming online at the perfect time for UA (Barring no more delays)


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5193 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 30053 times:

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 19):
From my understanding , the NEOs have bigger engines VS the MAX which adds weight but also makes them more efficient over longer flights. The MAX is lighter which helps it on shorter flights but burns more fuel on longer flights because it has smaller engines.

Yea I figured as much as well; however, I wonder how the aerodynamics and total gross weights of the birds will come into play and if the difference will be negligible. I think the assumption is spot on that we will probably see paid for 767s and new 787s ultimately take over the bulk of the current TATL 757s.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13263 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 29840 times:
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It sounds like UA did their due diligence. Six months of bidding A vs. B!   
Talks had been under way for at least six months about a mix of current-generation Boeing 737s or Airbus A320s plus variants with new, more-efficient engines, said the people, who declined to be identified because details aren’t public.

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

I suspect, as with AA, they'll have a provision to lease the first birds to replace them later with more mature MAXs.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
They'll evaluate the -8Max and -9Max as a 757 replacement for a majority of its missions (domestic).

   Any runway too short for the 739MAX will just be fractionally downgauged to the 738MAX.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
For TATL, we'll likely see the 788 taking those routes over along with the 763's.

I'm hearing rumors of a 738MAX with a higher MTOW for TATL duty. True or not? I don't know. But I would be shocked if Boeing didn't work on a long haul narrowbody option. The 788 is just too much plane for certain city pairs. With Airbus working hard for an A320NEO/A321NEO for TATL duty (not at EIS, but later), Boeing will have to compete. The 738MAX should have an 15% to 18% or so increase in range over the 738 should give us over 3900nm (minimum TATL range).

I know the already hired pilots want more widebodies. Don't worry, we'll see 788s/789sA359s fragment long haul. However for TATL, I expect once there are TATL range versions, to see the bulk of the growth narowbodies.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 13):

Surely the folks at UA have read the thread about the superiority of the GTF on the NEO and know that engine is not available on the 737 MAX. What's wrong with them?

UA has been taken over by a bunch of ex-hippies having flashbacks on their low-carb diets.    It the only reason I can think of to ignore the GTF.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 apodino : IIRC, the A320s are among the oldest NB's in the UA Fleet (757's aside). Presumably, a 200 ac order would be in addition to the existing 737ngs coming
26 AADC10 : Part of the reason for the A350 order is that it was to resolve the Ch. 11 issue of an A320 order that PMUA did not take delivery of. Cancelling the
27 Stitch : The 787-9 can be an almost 1:1 replacement for UA's 777-200ERs in terms of seating. Both planes have fuselage lengths that are almost identical and t
28 Roseflyer : I think what that makes clear is that UA is doing a very thorough job of fleet planning and it is not a case of the CEO wanting A or B and the airlin
29 laca773 : Since UA is changing their p.s. product from PJW to JWY, won't they be able to utilize a sub-fleet of 739ERs (73Js)? How do you expect the NEO to per
30 Alias1024 : This order would likely go mostly to replacing A320s and 757s. The CSeries doesn't really fit that mold. They still have a few years before they need
31 1337Delta764 : Exactly what they did with DL. Boeing already lost one of their most loyal customers (AA), and does not want to lose their two other most loyal U.S.
32 nomorerjs : Has anyone other than Bloomberg reported this? It could be a ploy to get better discounts / slots from Airbus. Also, if UA does go with Boeing, why wo
33 Post contains images UnitedTristar : wow, this gets old people! The 757's at CO were delivered from 1994 to 2000 The 767-300's were delivered from 1991 to 2000 they are the same age, the
34 Post contains images SonomaFlyer : The 359 order supposedly have some stiff penalties built into the contract. A cancellation would be expensive for UA. Besides, they should be receivin
35 Stitch : On a percentage basis, AA's discount on the 737-800 was higher than DL's on the 737-900ER - 52% vs. 51%. I am of the belief AA went with Airbus prima
36 solarflyer22 : Yeah, it seemed to me like CO was doing fine with Boeing and seemed to like their products. They were pretty effecient prior to the merger and I thin
37 drerx7 : They flew 747-100s/200s. Whether they flew them profitably is another question.
38 STT757 : While an all 737 (NG, MAX) domestic fleet for UA might be an unappealing prospect for us aviation fans, there seems to me to be a lot of logic behind
39 drerx7 : The only question mark I see is how compelling Boeing will be with the new 777 or 787-10 offerings.
40 Post contains images neutronstar73 : HAHAHA! You owe me a new laptop, PlaneAdmirer! Awesome!
41 fpetrutiu : They can always get rid of them the moment they take posession of them,if they really wanted to. I doubt they will take any A380's at all...
42 Max Q : We certainly did. It is possible to make a profit on Aircraft bigger than 737's you know..
43 apodino : One thing about the A350. If Boeing decides to launch the 787-10, the plane would be very similar in most capabilities to the A350. Since UA is not sc
44 fpetrutiu : I doubt that. I think the contract stands as it was a merger, thus previous commitments stand. As for the A350, UA can easily turn around and lease t
45 Boeing773ER : +1 I do get where he is coming from, last time I flew CO (2010) I felt very uncomfortable for the three hour flight from EWR to NAS, especially when
46 drerx7 : Really? I know they used them on IAH-HNL...then Gulf War broke out and gas spiked and the route cancelled. Then of course they flew to Gatwick and wh
47 Stitch : For missions out to 8-10 hours, yes, so it would work well for East Coast TATL and SEA-NRT. For TPAC or West Coast TATL, it's not going to have the l
48 seabosdca : I agree with you for the longest TPAC, but the 787-10 should do West Coast TPAC and all the TATL routes just fine. It should have about 800-1000 nm m
49 gigneil : There is absolutely no evidence of it. Internal communications over the Earth week made it VERY clear that the A350 is a key part of the strategy. No
50 United1 : Which certificate the airline had when UA ordered the A350 is irrelevant. United Air Lines Inc (which is the surviving company) signed the order....t
51 gigneil : Yet the A350-900 will have a range well north of 8000nm. The A350-900 is being purchased to replace the 747-400 which United uses on 6000+ nm routes
52 ordpark : Sigh...I never really thought of our 767's as CRUSTY!!!!!!....Pretty solid aircraft, actually
53 seabosdca : Agreed. And I don't see an A350-900 cancellation as likely. I just think the view of the 787-10 as a TATL-only bird is a bit limiting. UA really push
54 gigneil : I won't necessarily argue that. And they have the fundamentals for further 787 orders in the contracts they have in place. NS
55 fxramper : Excuse my lack of detail but the comparison from say ZRH on a 763 with IAD based PMUA crew vs. GVA on 752 with PMCO based crew is night and day. It's
56 gigneil : You know just as well as everyone else here that the front of a UA 767 is not, under any construction of the words, crusty. The front interiors are AL
57 fxramper : I don't sit in an off in SFO and non rev on buddy passes to HNL I fly on revenue fairs all over Europe for work. PMUA 763 are busted up crusty frames
58 Post contains images ual777uk : Possibly. Lets get that chicago way of things getting a 748i in thr fleet as well. I must be flying different 763s to LHR to ORD to you then.
59 Post contains images EPA001 : I guess you mixed up the B787-10 with the A350-1000. The latter is not on order by UA btw. On topic: this order most likely going to Boeing comes as
60 nicoeddf : Interesting. Every time we discuss an United order, people from certain parts of the world start running in circles like chicken in order to find ways
61 KC135TopBoom : I don't think that UA can legally do that for Airbus or Boeing. The individual offers could be propriority information.
62 Post contains images oldeuropean : Mods please delete this post. [Edited 2012-04-24 04:06:38]
63 tpaewr : in the mid-90 is was semi-public knowledge that CO's best route was NRT-HNL, hence it was a 742. In fact CO added more 747-200s (ex-BA) on to GUM-NRT
64 msp747 : Do you mean the 787 is not an option from a capacity sense? Both the 788 and 789 have a range of more than 8000 nautical miles. Even if they are the
65 Burkhard : Airbus to my understanding has, after the AA order, no 400 slots left for this decade. So they don't need to hunt for every oder, and such a big one w
66 United1 : None... UA has 21 737-500s that are being phased out but that's it for the classic 737s. This order should be to replace the older 752's and A320's a
67 USAF336TFS : I wouldn't be shocked if this order was cancelled in the future, because I agree with Kaitak: And because the reality is that the CO people are runni
68 fpetrutiu : Airbus is the one hurting for more OEO orders for the A320. They were quotted saying that they need t least 300 more OEO orders to keep the line runn
69 EaglePower83 : I know right? I was hoping to see some of our GTFs on my hometown airline :/ Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26): IIRC, the A320s are among the oldest NB's in
70 ERJ170 : Here's a smart move, in my opinion... United keeps the 350 and gets some kickback for the delayed penalties (are we sure there are going to be any).
71 Polot : UA are not going to be eliminating the entire A320 fleet anytime soon, but remember that some of them are dating back to the early 90s, and will prob
72 tjwgrr : Technically .8 inch. UAL's A319/320 Y seat width is 18", their 73X are 17.2" Interesting- not all airlines give the Airbus' extra cabin width to the
73 nicoeddf : An even smarter move, imho, would be: UA realizes that their inital assessment of the A350 is correct (and why shouldn't it be - its not that perform
74 PlaneAdmirer : That's one way to burn the bridge with Airbus. UA needs Airbus to keep Boeing honest just like US needs Boeing to keep Airbus honest (though I think
75 Post contains links msp747 : I'm pretty sure the 737 classics were phased out a few years ago: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...0-27-united-737-final-flight_N.htm As a freq
76 Post contains images EPA001 : I doubt that since both OEM's are trying to raise the production of the OEO and the NG's to record levels. But I was referring more to the NEO vs. th
77 SonomaFlyer : UA has 50 firm orders for 787's with options for lots more. They'll likely be used to start new city pairs and augment existing services. It looks li
78 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Have a look: http://www2.airliners.net/aviation-f...eneral_aviation/read.main/5408393/ Straight from the horse's mouth. They are ramping up productio
79 Post contains images PHXA340 : UA will not become an all Boeing carrier. It seems a lot of people have convinced themselves that the A350 order is shaky. It is firm and will be del
80 warreng24 : PMUA and PMCO do not have any B733's in the fleet. They were phased out years ago. The PMUA 735's were phased out years ago too. Correct. PMCO still
81 msp747 : I totally forgot about these planes, even though I flew on them often while living in Houston. I was just thinking about the PMUA fleet, which had be
82 Roseflyer : That would do a really good job of destroying the relationship between United and Airbus. United management has been making regular trips to France t
83 astuteman : I agree completely with the 300 number for Airbus's OEO requirements, But you choose an interesting logic to apply, given that Boeing need to secure
84 PHXA340 : With the production increase and later in service date for the MAX I could see that they have a bigger gap but a 1300 gap doesn't seem at all accurat
85 Post contains images neutronstar73 : I don't know about that. They (UA) gave Boeing a swift kick in the ball bearings when they ordered the A320 because they didn't like the 737 anymore
86 Carls : Very true!!! As for the topic, I seiously believe that we will see an Airbus order from United. Regardless Bloomberg.
87 Stitch : While it is true that pre-merger UA added the A320 family to their existing fleet of 737 Jurassic and 737 Classic fleets, to say that they then "prom
88 fpetrutiu : I really don't understand your logic here. there are 2228 NG's on the order books for Boeing. If you take event a 60 airplane/month delivery rate, th
89 Post contains images lightsaber : I see a bunch of 7 to 10 year leases a la AA. Could this be why UA is ordering from Boeing? Able to receive quick 738OEO orders with 738/739MAX for l
90 brilondon : These days you don't need to walk to each other's office to do business, you could always call them. Seriously, what type of penalties would UA incur
91 rbgso : UA is in an interesting situation here. Assume for a moment the A350 is delayed significantly. Depending on the contract terms, UA maybe able to rece
92 Post contains links fpetrutiu : WSJ was saying that there is a possibility that UA would cancel the A350's after the merger in 2010. Here's the article: http://articles.marketwatch.
93 Acheron : How about the fact that the A350 actually complements the 787 by virtue of its bigger size?. UA won't be the only airline operating a mix of 787 alon
94 AADC10 : It is not a 1:1 replacement because the 787 is 18" narrower, the width of one whole seat. The same number of seats can be installed and probably will
95 delawareusa : And lets hope the A359 order changes to 747-8
96 Post contains images columba : or even better orders the 747-8I in addition to the A350
97 Chiad : Airbus has a A320 OEO backlog of 1900++. At 60 deliveries per month (not gonna happen) that's 32 months backlog to last just about to 2015. Consideri
98 BLIKSEM : I agree with you. I also hope that UA cancels the A350 order.
99 PHXA340 : Why cancel though ? If the A359 comes out to spec it is going to be an amazing aircraft. It has got the range, seating capacity, and fuel efficiency
100 capitalflyer : Is 150 enough to replace all those? I think UA has 150 A319s and A320s alone. I may be wrong.
101 Roseflyer : Last I checked it was about 97 active A320s and 50 A319s. Don't forget about the 159 757s as well although many of the 757s were later build. The 757
102 Stitch : Airbus' production rate on the A320 (oeo and neo) has been, currently is, and will be higher than Boeing's production rate on the 737 (NG and MAX) at
103 Post contains links lightsaber : With a line that is being accelerated to lower the per unit costs to ~500/year. That means Boeing needs to sell out 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 most of
104 ua76heavy : Not true. At that time, Boeing offered the 734 but it didn't have the transcon range UA wanted. The best the B734 could do was DEN to the east coast.
105 ER757 : How did this turn into a "will UA cancel their A350's" thread? Seriously, a potential 737 order has NO BEARING on their previous order for the A350!
106 SonomaFlyer : It will take a while for the new n/b order to be filled in numbers so the 320's will be around for a while. They are refitting the overhead bins etc s
107 United1 : Absolutely...the 320/319s are not going away anytime soon...the oldest ones from 1993 have a few years of life left but its time to start thinking ab
108 fpetrutiu : They are talking 200 nb aircraft, and let's not forget about the other 53 (38 737-700's and 15 737-900ER's) already on firm order. That would bring i
109 ua76heavy : That was before the merger. Now that CO's management is in the driver's seat, it's a brand new game.
110 Stitch : DL did defer NW's 787 order to the next decade, but they did place a 100-frame 737-900ER order. So yes, CO could cancel/defer the A350s, but they'd e
111 fpetrutiu : I agree, and those would make it hardly economically logical to say that they don't need them. UA is on the hook for the A350 weather they like it or
112 kfitz : Those who make strategic decisions (executive level) has been shifting since merger close with more and more ex-PMUA leaving, it's ~80/20 stacked tow
113 gigneil : No, they don't. The 788 is topping out at 7600 right now and for the foreseeable future. The 789 might have 8000nm range, but is quite a bit smaller.
114 Post contains images astuteman : I don't disagree with you there Stitch. But don't you think it's a bit rich that there are those on here that also agree with you, and yet have Airbu
115 dbo861 : According to Boeing's website, the 788's range is supposed to be 7,650 to 8,200 nautical miles, so they're only 50 NM from the lower end of the expec
116 MakeMinesLAX : "Years ago" doesn't quite seem like the appropriate description. It's only been 2.5 years since the final PMUA 733s were retired. I had the privilege
117 Post contains images bjorn14 : I was hoping UA would push for the 359R...10,000+nm!....now were talkin'
118 EPA001 : Although we have seen worse threads over the past years. But you are , as usual, 100% spot-on with your comments.
119 United1 : It's not quite stacked that high....but at any rate none of those people make decisions in a vacuum or alone. There are a number of people (maintenan
120 Post contains images USAF336TFS : I still wouldn't be shocked if it was cancelled in the future, and yes, I'm one of those who thinks it's on shaky ground because of UA's management s
121 drerx7 : Lol...I wouldn't be on it for 10,000+nm...I'd tap out 3/4 of the way.
122 VC10er : They were crusty, may still be in economy, but biz and First look and feel brand new. Aside from a 747, for business travel I prefer the 767 and even
123 windy95 : It will be a 200 plus order and the 900ER's will be used to replace 90+ 757's with many of the options running into the MAX.
124 PHXA340 : This falls both ways as I pointed out with the Airbus fans saying the 748-I was a political purchase and the Boeing fans saying that Airbus basically
125 drerx7 : I didn't hear that. Excuse my skepticism - but I would like some links coming from a poster with a screen name of PHXA340 lol.
126 Post contains images rotating14 : Hello all. I too have yet to hear anything remotely close to such. Perhaps you are closer to the inside than we are but all I heard was they were goi
127 Post contains links and images PHXA340 : Sorry it was 2009. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/un...nited-airlines-leans-to-airbu.html I have said the 737-8MAX is perfect for UA so before for
128 lightsaber : Is that the current range? I've being hearing numbers a little lower (7450nm). Note, I'm asking as I've lost track of the current weight reduction. L
129 fpetrutiu : They already have 789's coming their way. But the 787 is not enough, they will need a small sub-fleet of larger twins like the A350 or even some 777-
130 sunrisevalley : PIANO X is using an EIS OEW of 120.792t. for the 788. Based on the 242 passenger standard max range is 7140nm If and when they get down to 116t the m
131 Post contains images neutronstar73 : But you can say the same thing about the 777, in fact it may be a better complement to the 787, due to fleet commonality and a ready pilot pool. so t
132 Post contains images Acheron : What fleet commonality is there between the 787 and 777 other than they are made by the same manufacturer?. As opposed to your obvious Boeing faboyis
133 Post contains links PEET7G : Honestly guys, instead of going into endless A vs B fights and insulting each other, why not do a little research? 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 7
134 Acheron : But apparently the Airbus pilot pool in UA is nonexistant, according to some people...[Edited 2012-04-25 23:29:08]
135 frigatebird : Losing an excellent deal on an excellent aircraft that perfectly fits UA's needs. UA's current management are not stupid. They won't turn down an exc
136 Post contains images nicoeddf : Whohooo, time runs faster every day! The 787 was called to be a A330 killer long before EIS of the 787 but now we are already at the point where "pap
137 strfyr51 : you might have hit the NAIL on the HEAD with that comment. Try 5-10 minutes walk.
138 neutronstar73 : HA! Projection is not limited to movie cameras and TVs. Way to miss the point. Whoever said (besides you) that the Airbus pilot pool at UA was non-exi
139 nicoeddf : I will ask it again: Why is it impossible to discuss a great possible order for 737MAX for UA, without diving into the possibility of a cancellation o
140 Max Q : You are correct about the pacific operation but we were operating 747's to LGW, CDG, MAD, FRA and a couple of other cities from EWR and IAH during th
141 strfyr51 : I'm not sure this has been brought out but the A350 Order was financed by the 42 A320's still on firm order that mysteriously got Cancelled. The 25 op
142 Schweigend : Dear Stir Fry, Your post has plenty of interesting things in it, but it is hard to understand. .... Me, I think United will take delivery of the A350
143 BlueSky1976 : The more I read this thread, the more I think it is becomming the "A350 will never be taken by UA", just like "AA will never buy Airbus" one. Pathetic
144 PHXA340 : Your post is really difficult to understand as is most your posts but a simple google search will in fact reveal that Smisek likes the A350 very much
145 Post contains links anfromme : Firstly - the actual thread subject: UA's reported inclination to buy MAX over NEO: It does seem that Airbus has more slot constraints for NEO at this
146 Post contains images EPA001 : Hush up. A-net myths should be kept alive and well. They are an endangered species. . But you certainly have posted some interesting information. And
147 Post contains links anfromme : Secondly - UA's A350 order. There's one core thing I really don't understand about all of these scenarios being thrown about here about how UA is goin
148 Post contains images EPA001 : Me neither, but the call on A-net for ditching the A350 is mostly driven out of a manufacturer-fan base then out of realism. And since many leading a
149 brilondon : Could UA transfer some of their delivery slots to other airlines? In other words sell their A350's to say US and take the penalties which would still
150 AngMoh : And the banks will ask for proof of the numbers as well as recalculate the numbers using their own independent consultants. If the numbers don't matc
151 SonomaFlyer : While it is possible for any airline to take delivery and turn around and sell or lease the a/c out, why would UA do that with the 359? It fits a rol
152 Post contains images Stitch : By increasing the production rate, Boeing is able to lower their production costs, so they can lower their Average Sales Price and still maintain the
153 Post contains links anfromme : As far as I am aware, Boeing are not the only ones planning production rate increases, though, nor do they currently have the higher production rate.
154 Stitch : Yes, I believe the A320 production rate has always been higher than the production rate for the 737NG. And that has no doubt helped Airbus secure ord
155 Post contains images nicoeddf : I certainly have no insight to the specific UA A350 acquisiton contract with Airbus, but it is not unheard of, even common, to have clauses in your c
156 Daysleeper : I’d like to say that I’m surprised by how many posters are speculating a possible 737 order means the cancellation of the A350, but the sad fact i
157 Stitch : It should not be. Boeing have noted that commitments are between an MoU/LoI and a firm sales contract - the airline has agreed to buy the MAX and pla
158 fpetrutiu : That 1000 count dates back to January 2012. I think they were not included since at the time Airbus was still in the running. They should be well ove
159 Roseflyer : I think the speculation of canceling the A350 order should be reserved for a different thread. But I do want to comment on some things that do not see
160 Post contains images charlienorth : Too many fan boys on this site and most do not know their @ss from a hole in the ground on the A vs B thing..put on a blind fold get your carcass on
161 Post contains images drerx7 :
162 Post contains images seabosdca : This constant drumbeat about the supposed cancellation of the A350 is off topic and is making my head hurt. The issue here is whether UA is about to o
163 astuteman : You can substitute A380 for A345 and 748i for 772LR in that sentence, and it would still be valid At a more cumulative level, Airbus delivered 420 A3
164 strfyr51 : WWill fly the A350 but it Won't displace the B777, be ause the 777 has Porven itself repeatedly. I said if they Don't like it they can always Lease t
165 USAF336TFS : None of us really knows for sure what UA will/will not order/cancel/revisit, so criticism of anyone's opinion doesn't add to the discussion. All we kn
166 Cerecl : strfyr51, please do us a favour and refrain from randomly capitalise your post. This makes no sense. The 777s in UA fleet will be displaced/replaced e
167 lightsaber : A very important point. IMHO, Boeing will use the low per unit production costs to lease 737NGs on shorter leases yet still make a profit. That is an
168 gigneil : Incorrect. The CURRENT UA management has said it. Wow I didn't realize it was that bad. An A330-200 can do that. There is ZERO other than the type ra
169 Post contains images lightsaber : Which analysis? That would put the A321NEO at TATL range... Lightsaber
170 gigneil : Aeroturbopower, which we can debate about bias elsewhere, has put the range of the A319NEO at nearly _4400_ nm with the A321NEO approaching 3750 to 3
171 columba : What many people seem here to forget UA is working with Airbus on the A350 for a long time. They have send their own engineers to Toulouse to discuss
172 Post contains links ferpe : Airbus issued a complete tech spec spreadsheet as part of a press package sometime Jan-Feb this year called "Airbus Aircraft Family_datatable" which
173 sunrisevalley : The way I read the range chart for an A332 is that with a 253 seat load it's range is ~ 6600nm. That is quite a spread from the about 7100nm for an a
174 Post contains images lightsaber : I expect the A321NEO to be at 3600nm to 3750nm at EIS. Later to grow, but not at EIS. I missed that, thank you. If Pratt does exceed fuel burn by 4%,
175 nomadd22 : Isn't the Airbus year only 11 months long?
176 ferpe : Well that seems to have changed, the Airbus document I referenced above now states 7250nm for the 238t variant with 253 Pax+Bags @95,0 kg each. Boein
177 Post contains images Daysleeper : I’m struggling to find a referance at the moment, but there has been a recent 200NM range bump for the A321NEO which was applicable to BOTH engine
178 Roseflyer : Out of curiousity, do either of you know what configuration those range quotes are in? Boeing quotes the 3900nm range including reserves, but in stil
179 ferpe : The standard range quotes for both OEMs as we understand it (which in A.net speak is the spec range = showroom range ) is with ACAP seating, max Pax
180 PHXA340 : You definitely harbor some animosity there buddy. For every Boeing fanboy there is an Airbus fanboy. You are assuming that P&W will kill it with
181 Post contains images lightsaber : My best sources are being *very* quiet (in other words, respecting NDAs). However, about two years ago they babbled on about a variety of changes Air
182 kiwiandrew : Can't speak for the others, but BA have completely retired the 757 from their fleet, and it was never big on their transatlantic routes.
183 gigneil : The range of the current highest TOW is 7200nm. I am not sure what date that EIS will happen or whether the range charts are updated until it hits th
184 sunrisevalley : Thanks for the link. I depend on the ACAP sheets. While the 238t 332 is shown as WV-058 in these there is no L/R chart for this variant in the sheets
185 Post contains links ord : From Reuters: United puts final touches on major Boeing 737 order: sources. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...s-ual-boeing-idUSBRE84304D20120504
186 rheinwaldner : How good (or how efficient) would the new reengined NB's be against e.g. the 787? I mean regarding CASM on TATL routes.
187 ADent : IIRC UA wanted 6 across in coach and Boeing said no, Douglas said yes. UA went with Douglas. Boeing changed their mind and widened the plane, but too
188 Stitch : I would expect poor when comparing full planes, but a full 737-8 versus a half-filled 787-8 might favor the 737-8, especially on a daily basis.
189 SonomaFlyer : It makes no sense to have two different engine types on the new 787's going to UA. That would mean two different sets of spares, training and frankly
190 United1 : UA never announced on a engine type for the 787s...the only engine type they announced was the RRs for the 350's. If it was Boeing and they could str
191 Post contains links srbmod : With this thread getting close to 200 posts and there being a new thread started on this same subject that has already garnered a number of posts, thi
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