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Which Routes Are Most Lucrative For Int'l First?  
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 779 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15903 times:

We've all seen the upgrading of international business class offerings, including the blending of J and F, e.g., VS. A lot of posters on a.net have discussed the demise of international first class. However many carriers still offer international first class -- albeit some with smaller cabins, e.g., LH and some on limited routes, e.g., AF.

Which routes are the most lucrative for international first class? Do forward looking trends suggest these routes will remain viable for F?

As a large international network carrier, does DLs strategy of not offering international first class on select routes help or hinder it -- and to what degree?

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 504 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15691 times:

I may be out of depth here but I believe the major ones to be,
LHR-JFK
LHR-SIN
LHR-DXB
HKG-NRT
HKG-SIN
LHR-HKG
LHR-NRT



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 794 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15666 times:

LHR-LAX will all the Hollywood traffic

User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15626 times:

Quoting questions (Thread starter):

Which routes are the most lucrative for international first class? Do forward looking trends suggest these routes will remain viable for F?

SYD/MEL-SIN-LHR
SYD/MEL-LAX
These routes keeping F with the A380 on QF.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 15523 times:

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and go ahead and say all of NYC - London. After all it was home to the Concorde, the single class A318 JFK-LCY service and numerous airlines that currently, or used to offer single class service on these routes. I don't have much evidence to support this claim, but that's my guess.

Also, It's not international first class, but I would venture to say that NYC-LAX is a pretty big market too with both AA and UA running premium service aircraft on this route.

Peae   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 15421 times:

This question has different answers based on how you look at most lucrative.

-There is probably the most lucrative overall route like say JFK-LHR for example as a route with tons of carriers and flights tons of F seats sold
-most lucrative for an airline example say BA on NYC-LHR but other carriers might not be as lucrative
-and single most profitable flight say ZHR-HKG on swiss (pure example). The single most profitable flight is probably one that just packs them in and has less competition to reduce fares not one of the big competition routes


User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15277 times:

I would have thought that routes with limited flights would be the ones that make the most profit, something like LHR-LAD and other oil destinations! I could be wrong tho.

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15208 times:

NYC-London it must be.

Asia-Europe routes must be growing too, but the importance and size of NYC and London, especially to the financial services industry, really would put it in its own league I would suspect.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15205 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 3):

LAX is said to be far more profitable for QF than SIN/LHR is, especially in F (and J). The fares are pretty similar to LAX and LHR, but operating to LAX costs significantly less.


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15144 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
NYC-London it must be.

But is it? Loads of F seats daily by AA and BA for example but are they lucrative as the OP stated or filled by a lot of upgrades who paid the J fare and are FF's? I would love to know.

I think LHR - LAX/HKG for BA has got to be up there.


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 884 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15019 times:

I would say:
CDG-LAX/IAD/NRT/LAD/LBV/ABJ/SIN on AF
FRA-JFK/HKG/SIN/LAD/NRT on LH


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14622 times:

NYC to any alpha city, ZRH to many also. ORD toICN possibly,I could see certain GRU routes.

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14596 times:

I spoke to an analyst once who said it was HKG-JFK or HKG-LAX, I forget which. So much frequency even on a winner like NYC-LON, depresses yields slightly.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14306 times:

LHR-NYC has so much F capacity that I find it hard to believe that it's a particularly lucrative route. I highly doubt that there are 300-odd people everyday paying to fill all those seats. VS made the decision a long time ago to drop F, and now DL is flying NYC-LHR without F. No doubt there is plenty of traffic, but I would have thought some flights would go out full of paid passengers, and others would go out empty.

The most lucrative routes will be those where one airline has a monopoly on F (or a duopoly I suppose), quite a long route and lots of traffic to fill the seats every flight. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a route out of HKG to North America, since CX seems to own virtually every single route there.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14196 times:

VS had an F product?? Are you sure?

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13776 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
VS had an F product?? Are you sure?

I thought they did in the very early years, but it's highly likely that I'm wrong.

I doesn't really matter either way though -- VS has chosen not to fly with First Class despite NYC being their core route.


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12395 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 13):
LHR-NYC has so much F capacity that I find it hard to believe that it's a particularly lucrative route. I

You got to understand though the amount of finance workers that are going back and forth, I have a few friends in wall street and a few working for London banks, and even middle mgmt at a lot of these firms are able to fly F in a 3 or 4 cabin aircraft. The other thing is you probably only need to sell a few F seats to make it profitable.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
VS has chosen not to fly with First Class despite NYC being their core

VS does not attract enough premium traffic to need an F cabin, I can not see many businesses, especially ones in the US using VS as their carrier. It has always been more of a leisure airline.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
I thought they did in the very early years, but it's highly likely that I'm wrong

It must have been their very early years if they did. What the poster might be thinking of they might have been the first to offer a hybridized first and business, I think they were one of the first to have lay flat business seats and on board amenities for J pax comparable to F carriers


User currently offlinetalisaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12187 times:

LHR-HKG. As I keep reading how airlines are gearing up for this route.
JFK-LHR Just a guess.
CDG-LHR this is probably the shortest daily flight by AF A380
JFK-CDG AF is using the A380 for this route and it's going to add second in July.
ATL-ICN both DL and KA do well on this route.
JFK-SIG this routes thru FRA with 1.5 layover and pick more flyers, A380 Singapore airline.
JFK-LAX be nice to see a 747 for this route again.

read all about it:

http://business.globaltimes.cn/world/2009-07/451152.html


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12121 times:

Quoting talisaman (Reply 17):
CDG-LHR this is probably the shortest daily flight by AF A380

AF does not operate CDG-LHR with the A380. They used it only during a short period in the summer of 2010.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12092 times:

Quoting talisaman (Reply 17):
LHR-HKG. As I keep reading how airlines are gearing up for this route.
JFK-LHR Just a guess.
CDG-LHR this is probably the shortest daily flight by AF A380
JFK-CDG AF is using the A380 for this route and it's going to add second in July.
ATL-ICN both DL and KA do well on this route.
JFK-SIG this routes thru FRA with 1.5 layover and pick more flyers, A380 Singapore airline.
JFK-LAX be nice to see a 747 for this route again.

LHR-CDG is way too short a flight to justify flying F. I'd venture that many would already prefer the Eurostar.

How come no one has guessed LAX-NRT?


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5576 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12093 times:

Despite the fact that none of us really know, it is pretty unsurprising that a consensus seems to have emerged that it would either start or end (or both) in one of: LHR, HKG, JFK and ZRH.

Banking = $$$



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

Quoting questions (Thread starter):
Which Routes Are Most Lucrative For Int'l First?

I know that CDG-BEY is a very lucrative first class route for Air france onboard B777 300R



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12017 times:

If we are talking only F and not the entire route / profitability of the flight....then oil routes generally are the most high yielding up front. places like IAH-GIG, DME, AMS or connecting to oil destinations like DFW-LHR-LAD

I have been on an SQ flight out of IAH where F and J were completely full and Y empty.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinetalisaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11882 times:

Correction: KA is Dragonair. I meant Korean Air. Pardon me folks.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11811 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 16):
You got to understand though the amount of finance workers that are going back and forth, I have a few friends in wall street and a few working for London banks, and even middle mgmt at a lot of these firms are able to fly F in a 3 or 4 cabin aircraft. The other thing is you probably only need to sell a few F seats to make it profitable.

I absolutely understand the amount of traffic there is on this route... But I also understand that there has been a mass move away from F (and even J) travel in recent years, and that this must have had a major impact on the amount of F traffic between LHR and NYC. Capacity has not contracted in the past 5 years alongside demand, which means that yields have to be dropping.

The lucrative routes are the ones that fill every seat at a high fare. This might have been the case with LHR-NYC 15 years ago, but it's certainly not the case today. Something like HKG-JFK is probably more profitable per F seat.


25 cipango : Although this route is very good for F class, its not International. These are exactly my guess also, but I'd add in LHR-JFK.
26 MAV88 : I am sure MIA has to be up there. Many people on here feel that Miami is a massive premium market.
27 UAEflyer : JFK-DXB LAX-DXB KUW-DXB BKK-DXB JED-DXB BOM-DXB LHR-DXB These routes are Money generators for the airline(s) working on them
28 mogandoCI : The only issue is that CX is actually very generous regarding redemption in F cabin (both AsiaMiles and oneworld partners), so whether CX is truly fi
29 Condor24 : I would have thought many of the African, Indian and Gulf routes to Europe, USA and Asia would be lucrative F class bearing in mind the wealthy folk t
30 readytotaxi : For BA I would have thought that Nigeria would be profitable in First. Not to far,good flight timing allowing good untilization of aircraft B777, and
31 flymia : I would imagine MIA-EZE and MIA-GRU is pretty good. Lots of business travel between the two. MIA-LHR is pretty good too but I would not compare it to
32 Irishpower : I'm sure west coast-Asia flights are up there SFO-HKG SFO-NRT LAX-HKG LAX-NRT SEA-NRT SFO-TPE LAX-TPE
33 A340600 : I've always thought that this is misrepresented. It is very difficult for a J cabin to come close to F for the simple reason of capacity. When flying
34 ordjoe : JFK-HKG is a really hard ticket to get with AA miles, almost always I have read people go through YYZ and YVR to get CX F awards. I bet JFK-HKG actua
35 jetblast : To add to this ABV is served by a 777, LOS is a 747 service (both are daily).
36 AirStairs : NYC-LHR is an obvious one, but I'd guess that while the frequency of bankers going back and forth is a blessing for the route, it also probably means
37 BigGSFO : i would say routes with very little competition to oil rich destinations, like to Angola and Nigeria. JFK-LON probably gets a lot of upgrades but is p
38 qf002 : The other issue I've come up with as an argument against LHR-NYC is the overwhelming use of corporate discounting for the vast majority of the traffi
39 Post contains images JOYA380B747 : That's kinda understood isnt it I mean the flights run both ways Yes, With the maximum frequencies to any city outside middle east from DXB, I'd say
40 Post contains images cipango : My bad! Completely missed the VERY FIRST route. Apologies.
41 Post contains links AeroWesty : VS never offered First Class. It was Upper Class from day one. £499 one-way LGW-EWR in the early days. Virgin Atlantic In The Early Days (circa 1985
42 sevenheavy : VS has never had a true first class product, but the assumption that they are mainly a leisure carrier is incorrect. They have a huge number of corpo
43 PHX787 : Anything So-cal to NRT is usually full. Someone told me that the DL leg from NRT which is currently run on an A-330 is going to be upgraded to 744 whe
44 Roseflyer : I know at one airline the highest revenue First Class cabin was SFO-HKG. It had the highest published fares in the network for a nonstop route and has
45 2travel2know2 : Any route into very frequency restricted LAD.
46 mozart : It is not. Even if many people in BEY pretend that it is and derive some sense of pride from it. What is true that CDG-BEY is one of the most lucrati
47 yellowtail : Well by the looks of it for UA (at least)....one of their best yielding routes up front seems to be IAH-GIG....
48 Roseflyer : It is pretty easy to tell which CO routes were doing well up front (Belgium, Switzerland, etc) because they have been switched to the more premium de
49 Post contains links jonnyclark : Funny this post comes up within a few hours of Lufthansa reporting they are going to cut first class out of select international routes, obviously par
50 Bananaboy : If it was particularly lucrative, surely both of the Korean carriers on the route would offer F class? OZ, not only don't use a 3 class aircraft, the
51 b52murph : For UA, I'm quite certain I've read somewhere that IAD-DXB and IAD-KWI are HUGE moneymakers, especially in F. As a side, I work with a couple of 1Ks t
52 ikramerica : One thing you can do is check the fares and divide by the block hours to get a sense of how much of a premium one route might demand over another.
53 DTWLAX : DL does not have First Class
54 AeroWesty : True to a degree, except that doesn't take lower-yielding connecting traffic into consideration. A last-minute First Class fare NRT-SFO on UA for thi
55 Post contains images tpaewr : Some what but not fully true. CO did very well in oil markets like IAH-GIG. That remain 2 cabin sCO. I belive the major int'l shuffle has yet to take
56 VV701 : BA operate fifty-two 744s each fitted with fourteen F Class seats. All six of BA's 77Ws also have fourteen F Class seats. Twenty of BA's twenty-four G
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