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JAL Considers To Use 787 For MAD, DUS, BER  
User currently offlinecolumba From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 8824 times:

Quote:
Japan Airlines Co., which began Boston services Sunday with its new Boeing Co. 787, may also use the fuel-efficient plane on routes to Spain and Germany as it bolsters services to smaller cities.
The airline is considering flights to Madrid, Berlin and Dusseldorf, which are hubs for partners Iberia Lineas Aereas de Espana SA and Air Berlin Plc, Kiyoto Morioka, vice president, network planning, said in an interview Friday at the company's Tokyo headquarters.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nb20120424n2.html

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 8697 times:

Just don't see it happening, or lasting if it does come to fruition anyway.

Every airline seems to think the 787 will be a way of starting routes all over the globe. Its frankly madness. With increasing fuel costs, even the efficiencies that the new gen twins bring, the viability of many routes are still questionable.

A few routes might stay on after this experimentation period, but I would expect vast changes to the mindset in a few years back to a more conservative strategy for these planes.


User currently offlineTalaier From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

I really hope JAL flies to MAD. Even though BCN is technically a stronger O&D destination from NRT, if JAL starts flying to Spain before ANA they will have a first mover advantage. With JK gone, MAD makes more sense in terms of access to the rest of Spain and LatAm of course (esp. Brazil given the large Japanese diaspora living there).

It would be major boost to MAD as a OW hub.


User currently offlinePanHAM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 8226 times:

Where do you want to spoke to from MAD except the Iberian peninsular and may be Morocco? The rest of Europe is covered from CDG, FRA etc.

Out of the three DUS makes the most sense as it holds the largest Japanese community in Europe and offers connections to all of Europe. Perfect mix for a hb/hub route.


User currently offlineg500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 8160 times:
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My opinion, the 787 will sell like crazy in the coming years... perfect size for some markets. This news is a perfect example

User currently offlineTalaier From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Where do you want to spoke to from MAD except the Iberian peninsular and may be Morocco? The rest of Europe is covered from CDG, FRA etc.

Out of the three DUS makes the most sense as it holds the largest Japanese community in Europe and offers connections to all of Europe. Perfect mix for a hb/hub route.

Latin America & Africa, two areas where IB is looking to further expand itself in. In any case O&D is strong enough to keep a 787, at least 5w. Given that Japan is not as good for EK/QR connections, the flight should do well enough.

IB already flew to NRT in the 90s and, as it has been said many times, the flight was in itself profitable, even with a stop (first in BOM, later in Moscow and finally in ANC). However, one thing is having a profitable flight and a very different one is having a profitable enough flight with a return above those of other potential destinations.


User currently offlines4popo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 7868 times:

I'm surprised MIA is not on the list. I'm not saying it's a better option than the cities already mentioned, but it should at least be considered. The feed from AA would be tremendous.

User currently offlineTalaier From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 7850 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 6):

I'm surprised MIA is not on the list. I'm not saying it's a better option than the cities already mentioned, but it should at least be considered. The feed from AA would be tremendous.

I'd imagine some of that would overlap with MAD. I guess we will see both destinations eventually, but it might be interesting to see which one comes first. In terms of distance, it shouldn't make too much of a difference.


User currently offlineSESGDL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 6):
I'm surprised MIA is not on the list. I'm not saying it's a better option than the cities already mentioned, but it should at least be considered. The feed from AA would be tremendous.

I'm not. MIA is not the market that some pump it up to be. The reason so many look at MIA as such an important destination to every region in the world is much the result of a few members of the forum who insist that MIA can support support to nearly every destination on Earth outside of Kathmandu. I can think of a number of cities that will gain new 787 service to Asia before MIA. The same goes with new service from EK, QR, and Etihad. These carriers continue to announce or contemplate new US service and Miami is not included in any of the lists that are published. MIA is a Latin American and European powerhouse, but let's be realistic...

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):

Every airline seems to think the 787 will be a way of starting routes all over the globe. Its frankly madness. With increasing fuel costs, even the efficiencies that the new gen twins bring, the viability of many routes are still questionable.

Agreed. These new service that 787s are supposed to generate are already being serviced through megahubs like LHR, CDG, FRA, and AMS. While some new nonstops are definitely warranted, the Tokyo market is already highly developed. The 787 will, in my opinion, go down as little more than a 767 replacement, not some airplane that's going to make routes like STL-NRT possible.

Jeremy


User currently offlinecolumba From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 7634 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Out of the three DUS makes the most sense as it holds the largest Japanese community in Europe and offers connections to all of Europe. Perfect mix for a hb/hub route.

BER does as well make sense, hope both cities will see JAL with the 787.

I do hope with Air Berlin joining One World BER will see some more long haul flights but I doubt the aircraft being used will anything bigger than a 787/A350. Although an EK or EY A380 would be nice  Smile

[Edited 2012-04-24 08:12:46]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 7298 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 6):

I'm surprised MIA is not on the list. I'm not saying it's a better option than the cities already mentioned, but it should at least be considered. The feed from AA would be tremendous.


It will likely operate with an AA 77W. Current rumors put it at a spring 2013 launch, but AA will need to acquire a new Narita slot pair. IIRC, AA and JL can't pool slots in the way AA and BA can. Fortunately a significant amount of new Narita slots will soon become available. Some talk has indicated that AA could announce MIANRT very far in advance of the actual launch, strategically planned to gain positive PR during BK. I'd far prefer a 787, but the plane is very small. Most of the plane is likely going to fill with five critical markets: LIMNRT, GRUNRT, MIAMNL, MIAHKG and MCONRT. Of those, only MIAHKG is a very premium heavy market. That makes using a 787 less than ideal. Getting Group has already offered revenue guarantees packages for Miami-Asia service, but I do not know if AA has been targeted by it.

Quoting SESGDL,reply=8These carriers continue to announce or contemplate new US service and Miami is not included in any of the lists that are published.:

Your distaste for MIA gets in the way of facts. KE, JL, TK, CX and EK have all publicly contemplated MIA service. There are threads for all of these except CX, which you'll find here:

http://www.miami-airport.com/pdfdoc/..._channel-10-bigger-cargo-plane.pdf

CX has gotten far enough, unlike the others, that it recently requested fee estimates from the airport. MIA will likely welcome Asia and Middle East service in the next 12-18 months, much to your disappointment.

[Edited 2012-04-24 11:56:30]

User currently offline123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 7234 times:

Can it make Japan-Brazil nonstop, regardless what city pairs? That wouldbe a great advanatage for JAL to avoid US or European stops enroute.

User currently offlineflylku From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Where do you want to spoke to from MAD except the Iberian peninsular and may be Morocco? The rest of Europe is covered from CDG, FRA etc.

They don't. The hub is on the Asian side, not European side.


User currently offlinebrons2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 6434 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 6):
I'm surprised MIA is not on the list. I'm not saying it's a better option than the cities already mentioned, but it should at least be considered. The feed from AA would be tremendous.

Do the early 787s have the performance for MIA-NRT nonstop?


User currently offlineghifty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 1):
Every airline seems to think the 787 will be a way of starting routes all over the globe. Its frankly madness. With increasing fuel costs, even the efficiencies that the new gen twins bring, the viability of many routes are still questionable.

Well if the 787 can do it better than the other aircraft offered.. it's niche has been fulfilled regardless of how expensive fuel gets. These routes will still, supposedly, cost less with the Dreamliner than any current-gen twinjets.


User currently offlines4popo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 5779 times:

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):

NRT-MIA is 6462nm according to Great Circle Mapper.

According to Boeing, the 787-8 has a range between 7650 and 8200nm so it shouldn't be a problem.


User currently offlinejoeman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 5737 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8):
The 787 will, in my opinion, go down as little more than a 767 replacement, not some airplane that's going to make routes like STL-NRT possible.

Absolute agreement. But it seems at this point, every US carrier remains dedicated to connecting their megahubs to every pothole in the world. Foreign carriers seem a little more reluctant to do so otherwise STL-LHR might exist. If the metro STL population base were in western Europe, it would undoubtedly be connected directly by a US carrier to at least EWR or JFK, and possibly ORD or ATL.or PHL

Lets not forget that ORD and JFK/EWR have a bottomless pit of O&D that makes nearly anything and everything, even if multi-duplicated by competing carriers completely feasible in the minds of many a.netters.


User currently offlinePanHAM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting flylku (Reply 12):
They don't. The hub is on the Asian side, not European side.

TYO-MAD for OneWorld is a hub to hub route

Connectin to South America might be an option but usually a connection through Canada or Mexico is the better one. Whoever wants to endure the US immigration procedures for a simple transit might go via LAX or MIA or whichever else.

Still, out of the three destinations in the header DUS is by far the best for JL.


User currently offlinebehramjee From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Still, out of the three destinations in the header DUS is by far the best for JL.


agree with you 100%

fyi Spain-Japan is a big market so lets compare MAD vs BCN:

MAD-NRT...72,000 pax
MAD-KIX...29,000 pax
MAD-NGO...8,000 pax

BCN-NRT...97,000 pax
BCN-KIX...36,000 pax
BCN-NGO...12,000 pax

BCN is indeed bigger for O&D demand to Japan versus MAD, but the fares out of MAD are 9% higher versus BCN + via MAD more connections to Span and EU are available versus BCN hence it is in JL's interest to fly to MAD versus BCN!


User currently offlineoldeuropean From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Out of the three DUS makes the most sense as it holds the largest Japanese community in Europe and offers connections to all of Europe. Perfect mix for a hb/hub route.

I don't believe that. This Japanese community is there for decades and for decades airlines (LH, JL, LT) have talked about flights to Japan. But it never happened.
And I don't believe that there is a market from Japan for connections into the AB network.

[Edited 2012-04-24 23:47:11]

User currently offlinePanHAM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 19):
But it never happened.

It did. LH and JL had flights to DUS with 742s, operating FRA-DUS-NRT, alternating with HAM. After the Polar route was dropped and flights went via Siberia, this ended. Both NH and JL have direct connecting luxury buses from FRA to DUS and now there is the right aircraft to operate the route. Plus, DUS is a true hub offering connections which did not exist in the 70s and 80s when the polar route existed.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4691 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
TYO-MAD for OneWorld is a hub to hub route

Very true, but given the location of each hub, the connections would be much less time efficient than some other existing options.

MAD being so far West and TYO being so far east from their respective main catchment ones is an issue.
Using TYO as a hub is a backtrack for most of Asia, which is the sae case as MAD for Europe.

If the routes work for O&D, it would make sense, but as a hub option its less than ideal.


User currently offlineoldeuropean From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
It did.

Ok, a few flights, but it was never profitable. And regarding the aircraft type, e.g. LT, which by the way had a comparable (if not better!) network like AB today, wanted to use the A330-200 to Osaka, but AFAIK these flights also never happened. And that was in the late 90th, after the Polar route.

[Edited 2012-04-24 23:53:04]

[Edited 2012-04-24 23:56:46]

[Edited 2012-04-25 00:03:28]

User currently offlinePanHAM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
Very true, but given the location of each hub, the connections would be much less time efficient than some other existing options.

I simply made a statement that TYO-MAD is OW hub to hub, nothing else. However,, i do not see MAD as an effricient hub to South America for pax arriving from Japan.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 22):
Ok, a few flights, but it was never profitable. And regarding the aircraft type, e.g. LT, which by the way had a comparable network like AB today

What are you taqlking about? That was all pre alliances. That was LH having a pool agreement with JL for that route. I did not even think about LTU which, in those days was an excellent airline to holiday destinations.

This was how long distance operated in these days, with 742 making short hops to collect passengers where they had enough boardings to make it worth. I flew that route as well, remember 1980 with JL NRT ANC HAM and I was glad to get off there and walk home (yes, 10 minutes from the terminal) instead of connecting through FRA.


User currently offlineoldeuropean From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
I did not even think about LTU which, in those days was an excellent airline to holiday destinations.

Yep, but AB have only but less of these holiday destinations from DUS. So much about the argument that the connection into the AB hub is a positive criteria for flights to DUS.

And the LH flights never were profitable. Why did the otherwise were cancelled after a short period?

BTW, I had a ride in the JL bus between DUS and FRA. It was a bus with less than 30 seats. Another reason for my doubts about the profitability of flights between Japan and DUS.

[Edited 2012-04-25 00:19:54]

25 PanHAM : Well, AB has plenty of destinations from DUS, not only holiday places. It is completely different from what LTU had. You cannot compare AB with the ol
26 columba : Well if AB does not have so many destinations from DUS then maybe JAL might fly to BER instead
27 Talaier : Well we would have to see how it matches but a MAD-NRT flight leaving around 14:00-15:00, arriving at NRT early in the morning and a NRT-MAD flight l
28 lightsaber : The 787 will provide significant fragmentation of the market. Asia to Europe is one of the obvious route. Now, I've been following KE more than JL, pa
29 HKG212 : There are Latin American connections via YYZ on AC, and via MEX on AM (with 4X weekly, 1-stop service to NRT). JL doesn't fly to either, and neither
30 SCL767 : JAL also routes pax traveling between NRT and both SCL and LIM via LAX!
31 MAH4546 : Close to 85% of Asia-Latin America traffic transits via the United States. So clearly a lot of people do not mind "enduring" U.S. immigration.
32 Post contains images PanHAM : let's put it this way, they have no choice. I am surprised that no one yet has mentioned DXB, EK offers some connections from Asia to SA as well. If
33 Talaier : If JL, AA and IB offer an alternative via MAD, then having dual connectivity would work well. Flying via MAD on the way there, arriving in EZE early
34 LJ : Wasn't DUS on NHs whishlist as well??
35 PanHAM : I guess so, but since LH anounced a direct flight to NRT NH would simply codeshare. Has been postponed to at least 2013 now. If JL flies to DUS that
36 mogandoCI : By LatinAmerica are you lumping in Mexico and stuff like Panama too? Those entirely don't make sense to transit via Europe, while if you're talking a
37 MAH4546 : Absolutely not. The poster claimed these airlines haven't publicly contemplated MIA, while publicly contemplating other cities. I proved him wrong. I
38 Post contains links and images JOYA380B747 : I don't know if this was posted before but, JAL's DEL-NRT begins today according to the news, anyone in DEL to visit it/flying it?? Regds
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