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EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

One more time the Ezeiza - Ministro Pistarini Intl. Airport, the most important of Argentina, is operating with Secondary Radar, which requires information from the crews in the air and reduce the overall safety in the operation of the terminal.

The worst part is, this is consequence of lack of maintenance ( lubrication ), and the return of the Primary Radar will take several days....

Source ( only Spanish for the moment ) :

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1468189-no-funciona-el-radar-de-ezeiza


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6242 times:
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How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working ? What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.

User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
second most important airport in Latin America

Come again?


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.

I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A.", a film made by an ex LAPA Pilot ( Enrique Pyñeiro ). I think is available in YouTube.
You will understand form when and where the problems are coming.

And regarding the whole country situation, there is a thread in Non Av, with some useful information.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinetotesen From Mexico, joined Dec 2008, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 2):
second most important airport in Latin America

??? say What? you do know that MEX and GRU exist right? and they are way ahead of EZE in terms of flights, infraestructure and traffic.



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User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

The article notes that authorities are looking for spare parts for the primary radar, which is no longer in production. Same thing happened in 2007 and obtaining the necessary spare took several months. How old is the primary radar for EZE?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A."

Remembering that documentary and reading how the secondary radar requires more communication between crews and controllers, I hope the communication level is up to par. Scenes of controllers simply not understanding the conversation with pilots give me the chills. Aviation is built around safety margins, but those margins erode quickly when you don't have good communication.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8821 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5897 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working

EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5824 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

In My humble opinion Sao Paulo's GRU is the first and EZE is thes second. Its not only about the number of passengers but the portfilio of airlines. EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5804 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 5):
Scenes of controllers simply not understanding the conversation with pilots give me the chills. Aviation is built around safety margins, but those margins erode quickly when you don't have good communication.

And he not only didn't understood the AF pilot ( who was talking a very decent English ), he also stated that the ILS for runway 35 was functional, leading the AF crew to a missed approach when they never received the signal ( because in fact the ILS was inoperative ). That case was really incredible, the AF crew requested to talk with the authorities upon arrival, but I have no idea what results they obtained from that move.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8821 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?

Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM! Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.


User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5724 times:

Quoting totesen (Reply 4):
??? say What? you do know that MEX and GRU exist right? and they are way ahead of EZE in terms of flights, infraestructure and traffic.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

Let's not forget GIG with 14.9 million last year or even BOG with 20.2 million.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8821 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5707 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
Let's not forget GIG with 14.9 million last year or even BOG with 20.2 million.

And you could add Brasília-BSB to the list with 15.3 million pax traveling through BSB last year.


User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ?

I certainly see your first point, but this one made me laugh! 
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A.", a film made by an ex LAPA Pilot ( Enrique Pyñeiro ).

I recommend you to watch every film/documentary/whatever that guy has done.

Even this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOGWzQlABE

You will most definitely not like what he says at 5:15 onwards. I might not agree, but this guy has a point right there.

I have the feeling you need to watch the Lapa one too, this guy fought for the safety of that airline. No one listened to him, and August 31st 1999 arrived. But things have changed a lot ever since.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

Forget about SCL and LIM in that case. We have GIG, BOG, BSB, MEX, CUN, GRU...

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM!

Congrats, they are still behind EZE on that matter.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.

It sounds like you had a party because of this  . The move by QF was obvious, just as MH isn't doing good. Meanwhile your OW partner BA still flies to EZE but not SCL.



Flying4Ever!
User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

MVD has had its own problems, but compared with EZE traffic at MVD is a joke. You'd really have to try hard to have a safety problem at MVD (unless traffic is diverted from EZE, in which case MVD will likely be overwhelmed). No radar at EZE is scary. Granted that they have the back up, but as mentioned the communication better be good... I don't like at all the idea of eating into the safety margins. There is a history of irresponsibility in that respect. Then as you mentioned, days like 8/31/99 come and the smelly stuff hits the fan...



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8821 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5539 times:
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Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Forget about SCL and LIM in that case. We have GIG, BOG, BSB, MEX, CUN, GRU...

It's interesting to note that both SCL and LIM have more flights to BOG, CUN, MEX, PTY, PUJ...

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Meanwhile your OW partner BA still flies to EZE but not SCL.

Meanwhile the main international carrier at Lima and Santiago has 32 B-787s on order to launch flights to destinations such as LHR. Also, you'll be able to see our first B-787-8 at EZE later this year!  


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5520 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?

Because the traffic is not so big ( is really small compared with EZE ), traffic in MVD can be managed by Secondary Radar without a compromise to safety, not the EZE case.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

No it wasn't. Thank God Uruguay is veeeeeeeery different to Argentina in most of the important things.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
You will most definitely not like what he says at 5:15 onwards. I might not agree, but this guy has a point right there.

I already saw that video long time ago. Yes he got a point, but the bleeding of AR is not a consequence of the airline doing social services flying to remote isolated places without commercial profile, the bleeding is mostly a consequence of other factors ( see Reply 2 ) and everybody knows that.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

I'm sorry.

Why has this thread veered off into who's got the biggest one (quién la tiene más grande)?
I really couldn't give a bleeding... well, you know, if EZE was the 1st, 2nd o 10th airport.

Now, onto the REAL part of the thread:

Gonzalo,
If you actually KNEW what you are talking about you would know that the Thompson Radar was installed in 1973 (with the first upgrade of EZE) and ever since the new Secondary Radars installed in Moreno, Quilmes, La Plata and Ezeiza too, it has gone out of Active Duty and only to serve as back up. There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

This article you posted coming from a long line of opposing media outlets (especially Diario La Nacion with a huge connection of the ignorant military that lead to the aeronautic infraestructure situation that the Government is trying to solve), is nothing but a bunch of words tangled together making almost no sense at all.

The INDRA radar mentioned by the article was indeed loaned, not acquired, to the government by the Spanish Air Force. After the installation of the abovementioned radars - before it was returned, Spain decided it had no duty life left and is here for the rest of its life.

3 MET I radars from INVAP are awaiting Certification as Primary Radars for 3 big sectors in the country.

Gracias CamiloA380 and 757gb!  

Saludos,

[Edited 2012-04-26 10:20:53]


There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5276 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 16):
If you actually KNEW what you are talking about you would know that the Thompson Radar was installed in 1973 (with the first upgrade of EZE) and ever since the new Secondary Radars installed in Moreno, Quilmes, La Plata and Ezeiza too, it has gone out of Active Duty and only to serve as back up. There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

This article you posted coming from a long line of opposing media outlets (especially Diario La Nacion with a huge connection of the ignorant military that lead to the aeronautic infraestructure situation that the Government is trying to solve), is nothing but a bunch of words tangled together making almost no sense at all.

Really? I guess "Clarín Lies" is your next reply...

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Demor...ue-funciona-radar_0_689331278.html

Both papers are saying the same : "the most important Radar is not functioning" I don't care if the brand is Thompson, Raytheon or Samsung, is the most important and is not funcitoning.
Is really simple, the flights are being separated by 5 minutes from each other ( precisely to ensure separation ), that is something anyone with a..... wristwatch can prove !!!!! Why are they doing that if "everything is OK" as you are saying ??

Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2012-04-26 12:05:50]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
Both papers are saying the same : "the most important Radar is not functioning" I don't care if the brand is Thompson, Raytheon or Samsung, is the most important and is not funcitoning.

No, the BRAND issue is because there are two radars with the same brand - they could've easily "confused" it to generate uncertainty.

However, nowhere it states that it is the Primary Radar (Radar Primario). It's only mentioned to be el "radar principal", which, actually, is not the same. I'm not saying "Clarín Miente" as you suggest, but Media Outlets (on both sides) in this country (that you know so little of) tend to modify facts in order to fit their truths to satisfy their interests.

This article says that the radar hasn't been functioning since Tuesday. That being the case, I've asked our airport staff if there had been any anomalies with Ground and Approach clearances and they said that everything was normal and that no delays were encountered. Our flight arrived normally around 1500, and departed normally at around 1830. Bang on time, quite in the middle of rush hour. As you can see, this radar is NOT affecting operations nor security.

Saludos,

[Edited 2012-04-26 13:49:15]


There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlinesciurusmdg From Argentina, joined Apr 2012, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4268 times:

Not sure if it is related, but BA244 (EZE to LHR) is delayed by about 13hrs. Wondering if anyone knows why and if it is related to the radar issues.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2495 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4162 times:

Radar is overrated.

"Cleared for an approach, call Tower"...

No, seriously, busy airports such as EZE should not have radar issues like this.

Also, there is distinction that should be made between "Main radar and backup radar", which is what is happening at EZE i believe (main radar out, meaning they are running on a backup radar, which by the sounds of it is not as good as the main one), and "Primary or secondary radar".

A primary surveillance radar (PSR) system measures the range and bearing of targets by detecting reflected radio signals.

A secondary surveillance radar system (SSR) not only detects and measures the position of aircraft i.e. range and bearing, but also requests additional information from the aircraft itself such as its identity and altitude. SSR relies on targets equipped with a radar transponder, that replies to each interrogation signal by transmitting a response containing encoded data.

In busy terminal environments, both PSR and SSR are required to provide adequate service. They are mounted one on top of each other, usually, the main dish being the PSR and the little scanner on top the SSR.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinedanild From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working ? What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.

I don't know about recent data but EZE would be a distant 12th rather than "second most important" at least by traffic...

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2011/04/16...ts-in-latin-america/preview/page/1

Is it an inconvenience to Argentinians? yes, is it the end of the Latin American World as we know it!? No!

You should check your facts before making bold statements as your post...

Cheers!



Danild
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5222 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
Meanwhile the main international carrier at Lima and Santiago has 32 B-787s on order to launch flights to destinations such as LHR. Also, you'll be able to see our first B-787-8 at EZE later this year!

What does this has to do with the thread???

I'm sure suggesting a post deletion.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 16):
There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

Us radar guys only really care about secondary radar. Despite its misleading name, its waay more important than primary... Primary radar is just a green blob if its unprocessed, or a little x if it is. Secondary provides a transponder code (Mode-A), so it can be linked to a flight plan, and also altitude indication (Mode-C). Then with newer equipment, more information like flight ID, indicated airspeed, heading, rate of climb, mcp level, etc can be obtained to (this is enhanced Mode-S).

However, the civil aviation authority might require both primary and secondary to be operational simultaneously. This is the tricky bit as the old thompson stuff is ancient history. Thales is now what Thompson was, i believe.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2147 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?
Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM! Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.

Malaysia stopped EZE because its lost tons of money, it didn't go to another Latin destination. Qantas moving makes perfect sense since SCL is a OW hub and is closer to Australia.

Seeing Qatar and Emirates in Lima and Santiago ? I wouldn't expect them any time soon since these two cities are on South America's west coast. Very far from Dubai, could a 777 even fly nonstop from DUB to SCL or Lima ? EZE is flown via Rio. Until Lima to NRT of HKG happens the west coast of South America will not see nonstop to Asia.


25 Post contains images 757gb : Thanks for clarifying that. Semantics can be confusing, especially when reporting technical news to people without the technical knowledge. As MD11ju
26 thenoflyzone : It doesn't receive and echo. It receives a signal by the transponder. So no. This is why the range of an SSR is around 200 nm whereas a PSR is only a
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