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The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati  
User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15386 times:

CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Aw...2012/list_bestairport_namerica.htm

However pax. numbers have dropped dramatically since the Delta cuts before and after the merger with NW as we all know and is now just a small Delta hub.

What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

What are your thoughts?

152 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15402 times:

I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.


Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15358 times:

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1):
I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.

  

DL will never grow CVG back to a connecting hub. They will provide enough service to capture the O&D and serve the business community, but anything more than that can go via DTW.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineSouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15197 times:

I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.


What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1768 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14871 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

That's so sad.

What are they going to do with the rest of the airport/terminals? Aren't they going to have to decommission additional space? Will they consolidate all operations into one single terminal?


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1897 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14779 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

It's the second time they have won this award, so they must be doing something right. Despite all the cut-backs, the airport board does an excellent job of maintaining the airport and responding to customer demands. Some of the improvement put into place this year for example include free wifi throughout the airport and strengthening cell phone coverage in all the terminal areas.

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

It's hard to say at this point really, but going forward I think CVG has a bright future as a non-hub airport. While pax operations have shrunk considerably, cargo operations have boomed and DHL has twice expanded their facility at CVG with 747's, 767's, 757's, and DC-8's now regular visitors to CVG again.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1):
I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.

Agreed. Of course there's always the possibility of a start-up hubbing CVG in the distant future when the economy improves, I don't see DL ever expanding operations again. For now though, they seem to have found an equilibrium they are happy with at the hub and long-term I would expect them to remain with a presence on the major point-to-point routes from CVG (i.e. LGA, DCA, LAX, RDU, MCI, CDG, in addition to their hubs).

I also continue to believe that in the near future we will see WN move their DAY operation to CVG. I know some people say WN will never come to CVG as they 'ring' Cincinnati with DAY, IND, CMH, and SDF, but Cincinnati is too large of a market and would be too much traffic left on the table for them not to serve it.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

Conventional wisdom would have predicted this flight getting cut a while ago, but I suppose P&G practically pays for the route with their Wal-Mart traffic, that's the only reason I can think of as to why it's still around.


User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14752 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Aw...2012/list_bestairport_namerica.htm

However pax. numbers have dropped dramatically since the Delta cuts before and after the merger with NW as we all know and is now just a small Delta hub.

What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

What are your thoughts?

At the end of the day, it's Cincinnati. Not a large city, not a large metro area, not a draw at all for tourists. Nothing major happens there (conventions, sporting events, music festivals, etc.). Aside from P&G, Cintas, Kroger and Macy's, not much is going on there business wise.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7175 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14679 times:

Being a Cincinnatian, the airport has a lot of memories for me, and it is a real shame seeing it the way it is. I can't tell you how many times I hear someone from the region complain about the lack of service at the airport, but it's like everybody said, DL simply has no use for the airport anymore because of DTW. For a while, we were all holding our breath and hoping a crippling snowstorm in Detroit would send service back to CVG from DTW.

The main issue at CVG is that it is running at about 10% of what it can actually serve. 3 parallel runways, one rather long cross runway, 3 terminals (2 are closed, I know, but you get my point,) and one terminal with 3 concourses (one closed, i know, again, don't give me crap)
When OH (Comair) developed that concourse C, and when the regional jet routing began to change, that was CVG's death knell.

Now the real issue is this: How do we keep businesses in Cincinnati and how do we make up for having all these facilities? WN will never serve CVG as they have DAY, SDF, IND, and CMH. 9K has DTW and probably won't come to CVG. My point being, the only extra service I see coming to CVG, unless the local governments really start kissing ass, is possibly G4 to AZA. The CDG route will remain as long as P&G stays in the Nati.

We have seen Chiquita leave Cincy for CLT because of more options there in the other Queen City. My dad, who works for a bank in Cincy, has told me he may relocate out here to PHX with me for more options. Many businesses have been begging CVG and DL to add flights or they'll simply leave Cincinnati for more options.

My point being...unless drastic changes or something huge happens to one of the midwest hubs for DL, or another "mainline" airline begins to expand service out of CVG, the city will die a slow painful death. I've already left the city for PHX and a number of my relatives and friends also left Cincinnati. When I left in 2010, that's really when the city began a spiral downwards.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14629 times:

Funny how the companies are "begging Delta for service" now when they refused to support the hub when it was here. Cincinnati, (and I say this as a resident) you got what you asked for. Tough.


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1541 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14581 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
The main issue at CVG is that it is running at about 10% of what it can actually serve. 3 parallel runways, one rather long cross runway, 3 terminals (2 are closed, I know, but you get my point,) and one terminal with 3 concourses (one closed, i know, again, don't give me crap)
When OH (Comair) developed that concourse C, and when the regional jet routing began to change, that was CVG's death knell.

Regarding Rwy 9/27, about six years ago there was a rumor coming out of OH that 27 was being extended to allow for Asian service! That always struck me as presumptuous at best, but it did make for a good laugh.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1897 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14483 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
WN will never serve CVG as they have DAY, SDF, IND, and CMH.

See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to. And if WN doesn't, then it will be F9, B6, G4, or NK, but I highly doubt WN would let any of them swoop in and steal market share from under their noses.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We have seen Chiquita leave Cincy for CLT because of more options there in the other Queen City.

The move had a lot more to do with $20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them. While air service at CVG played a part, companies by no means pack up for an expensive move and leave solely based on something as changing and fluctuating as air service.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
How do we keep businesses in Cincinnati

A lot of people seem to get this fundamental equation backwards, airlines (with rare exception) don't add flights and wait for businesses to move to a city and fill the flights up, but rather when businesses move to a city and create enough demand, airlines add flights. Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand. By yours and a lot of other peoples' logic, Wal-Mart should have moved it's HQ out of Bentonville a long time ago as XNA has very little air service and no international flights, yet they remain because it's probably cheap for them and the city works to keep them in the city.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
My point being...unless drastic changes or something huge happens to one of the midwest hubs for DL, or another "mainline" airline begins to expand service out of CVG, the city will die a slow painful death

You're painting a picture here that's much more bleak than the situation really is. Actually living here, I can tell you that CVG is still very well served for a city it's size and that the local economy is doing just fine. Chiquita leaving was certainly a disappointment but was really a long time coming as Carl Lindner was the only person keeping them in Cincinnati. Otherwise, the corporate community is still strong with Macy's, Kroger, GE Aviation, Kao Brands, P&G, DunnhumbyUSA, 5/3 Bank, First Financial, Western&Southern, Omnicare, Ashland, EW Scripps, Great American Insurance, American Financial Group, Cintas, Convergys, Toyota North America...etc still calling Cincinnati home, many of them growing/expanding in the area, with no plans or grumblings of leaving.


User currently offlineSouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14479 times:

Also the time before when I connected through CVG going to Little Rock (probably 2-3 years ago at least) my connecting gate had a pay phone at it - I had not seen one in eons, very old school.


What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12860 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14374 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
For a while, we were all holding our breath and hoping a crippling snowstorm in Detroit would send service back to CVG from DTW.

I'm sure STL wished that on ORD.

The reality is that airlines need a strong business presence for a hub. While excellent airline service will help grow a city, it isn't sufficient. Hence why hubs grow and collapse.  

The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE


Not to mention non-hubs that had ambitions (e.g., ICT).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14310 times:

Delta will have a fair number of flights, having built up a frequent flier base and being in the best position to serve the local market. There's no reason for a hub at CVG though.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
Many businesses have been begging CVG and DL to add flights or they'll simply leave Cincinnati for more options.

They obviously didn't use the flights that they had, otherwise they'd still be there. Delta never cut a flight because it was making too much money. Besides, I'm sure Delta would be more than happy to add a route to anywhere they want if the businesses write a big enough check.

I don't really get the point of businesses whining about service cuts. If it was as important as they make it out to be then the service wouldn't be cut.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3111 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14226 times:

When I was a student rabbi studying in Cincinnati, I flew monthly to Great Falls via SLC. DL had an L10 flying CVF-SLC at the time. Airport was always packed.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14186 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

I have flown in and out of CVG several times during the late eighties and early nineties. My recent visits were in '07 and '09. In between CVG has developped into a large Delta hub with nonstop connections to FRA, LHR, MUC, BRU, AMS, FCO. I was very much impressed lately about the facility. It didn't look like a abandoned airport however, but a big Comair destination served by Bombardier CRJ's

Reasons why DL is dehubbing CVG are obvious, however leaving a state of the art terminal facility with a capacity of app 25 million pax. unused is something I don't understand. Jetblue comes to mind

So eg. Jetblue comes to mind when it comes to a new fresh wind into CVG using it as a new midwest hub. Wishful thinking?


User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13570 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE

Indeed. What I wonder, looking like 10 years down the road is that all those cities sit at a weird cross roads when it comes to being a hub. They are not HUGE metro areas w/ tones of biz (as mentioned above) BUT they are not on smaller side like say DAY, SAT, AUS, MSY, etc either. Assuming there are 3 big airlines some day that are entrenched in the huge metro areas (ORD, DFW, IAH, NYC, ATL, etc) and w/ these airports good facilities it will be interesting to see if an upstart will move in, make it a foretress and grow from there (esp as tons of older A320s and 737NGs go on used market). If that is case it will bring the industry back to where it was, too much capacity yet I could see such a newer airline doing well esp if it joined an alliance as the biz travellers in those markets would probably be "over" switching at the hubs.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 13036 times:

My used to work for a company called Convergys, which was the non-regulated businesses spun off from Cincinnati Bell. One of the reasons why it remained headquartered in Cinci was the fact that Delta had a large hub. The company (ticker symbol CVG) has offices throughout the U.S., Canada, Latin America, Europe, and India.

If I remember correctly, the company got some tax incentives to move employees into one building downtown (they had been spread out in several buildings in downtown, plus some locations in the suburbs to the north. So, I don't think Convergys is going anywhere. But, I'm betting that employees have to connect more at ATL, JFK, SLC, and MSP than they did 10 or 12 years ago.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7175 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12790 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand.

The problem there is, businesses don't want to move to a city that is losing business as it is.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):

They obviously didn't use the flights that they had
Quoting B727FA (Reply 8):
Funny how the companies are "begging Delta for service" now when they refused to support the hub when it was here. Cincinnati, (and I say this as a resident) you got what you asked for. Tough.

They were pissed that DL charged an arm an a leg for flights. The entire community was, which is why we began flying from IND, DAY, etc etc. Only the upper middle class and above could feasibly afford to fly out of CVG during the late 90's/early 2000's up until the turndown, when they began charging less, and now fares are back to where they were pre-merger.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
the company got some tax incentives
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
$20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them.

BECAUSE businesses, etc, and the economy and the fact that more and more people are leaving Cincinnati, the city can't afford to give these incentives.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1897 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12645 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand.

The problem there is, businesses don't want to move to a city that is losing business as it is.

Where? Sure Chiquita left, but as I said, that was a long time coming, even when the hub was larger with more international flights, most of their business is in LatAm and CVG never had any LatAm flights even at it's biggest. Other than that, no businesses have left or are planning to leave.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
the company got some tax incentives
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
$20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them.

BECAUSE businesses, etc, and the economy and the fact that more and more people are leaving Cincinnati, the city can't afford to give these incentives.

Oh I won't doubt that the city has problems, but it's the State governments that foot the bill for most of the incentives, cities usually help with the logistics end of business recruitment (i.e. real estate) . People are leaving Cincinnati, but not the region, the Cincinnati MSA is one of the few metro areas experiencing decent growth in the US, particularly the northern Cincy suburbs and the Northern Kentucky area.


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12628 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

I remember a few years back (Pre NW DL merger) walking through the airport and every regional flight in the terminal was packed and every gate had a plane in it. Sorry to hear it's now a ghost town.



RUSH
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2067 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12550 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
It's the second time they have won this award, so they must be doing something right.

Part of that award is a benefit of the lack of flights. Flights are more likely to be on time because there are few aircraft waiting to land or take off. Fewer flights means fewer bags to mishandle. There is plenty of space in the terminal and short security lines. If the airport was close to capacity, then its ratings would fall.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to.

One of the problems at CVG is the overhead of the construction to handle all of DL's flights. As the number of flights shrink, landing fees have to be spread to a smaller number of flights, sending fees up. As fees go up, even more flights are cut, placing the airport in a death spiral, similar to STL and PIT.

WN will stay out until CVG pays its bonds and can keep its landing fees down. WN did not go to DEN until the bonds were refinanced and landing rates were significantly reduced.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1897 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12506 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to.

One of the problems at CVG is the overhead of the construction to handle all of DL's flights. As the number of flights shrink, landing fees have to be spread to a smaller number of flights, sending fees up. As fees go up, even more flights are cut, placing the airport in a death spiral, similar to STL and PIT.

Fortunately that is not going to be the case at CVG. The DHL hub has replaced a lot of the revenue that would have been lost due to the DL hub cuts.


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12426 times:

I have not been to CVG in a very long time. How does it compare to PIT in terms of its current versus former self?


...are we there yet?
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12335 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
They were pissed that DL charged an arm an a leg for flights. The entire community was, which is why we began flying from IND, DAY, etc etc. Only the upper middle class and above could feasibly afford to fly out of CVG during the late 90's/early 2000's up until the turndown, when they began charging less, and now fares are back to where they were pre-merger

Not having service is not the same as not being willing to pay for service.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Post contains links deltaffindfw : As has been stated in many other threads, one of the main handcuffs CVG has is that they cannot offer special incentives to one new airline. If they o
26 Post contains links joeman : Except for a lower metro unemployment rate than places like Chicago, Atlanta, Charlotte, Seattle http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm
27 deltaflyertoo : PIT was a much larger hub for US than what CVG was for DL. Also US had planned to turn PIT into what DL has at ATL, like a super hub of like 500 or 6
28 flymia : These abandoned hubs are sad but at the same time fascinating like abandoned shopping malls. STL with its extra runway and many unused gates and PIT a
29 Post contains links CIDFlyer : actually CVG was that big for DL there. I believe by 2004-2005 they had upwards of 600 flights. I know I have read that on here before, they definite
30 slcdeltarumd11 : It's a little early to put cle on that list. United is still using cle. Add RDU and COS to that list. Both former hubs with empty gates. MKE is offic
31 mayor : Just as an FYI, CVG was originally set up as a reliever hub for ATL..........it eventually morphed into what it was at its peak......a full blown hub,
32 STT757 : Wouldn't that honor go to Miami? B6 is never coming to CVG, they can barely make ORD work.
33 lightsaber : The issue is growing the business community at those ex-hubs. Too many of those cities are no longer 'pro-growth.' Unless I've missed something, they
34 CIDFlyer : Not really because WN serves FLL, which technically serves the Miami metro area.
35 steeler83 : Good point. Given that, I wonder if anyone has heard anything new regarding the "new" PeoplExpress. If that's still supposed to get off the ground, t
36 CIDFlyer : CLE is still a hub, albeit smaller. MEM is still considered a hub by Delta, although they gradually keep axing cities here and there, but its still a
37 Cubsrule : Is there a correlation between general "pro-growth" policies and airline service, though? In Nashville, we've seen a number of recent large corporate
38 Post contains links michman : Yep. There is also the departed flights webpage for CVG which shows nearly 600 flights in it's heyday -- http://www.departedflights.com/DLCVGhub.html
39 ih8b6 : That is why it was extended. It's 12,000ft now and that's exactly why it was done.
40 B4REAL : The fact is, DL has too many hubs within 500 miles of CVG. So ATL and DTW win, MEM and CVG lose. Simple as that. With that said, I'm tired of CVG flie
41 Post contains links lightsaber : CLE is still in use, but not nearly at its peak. I flew through CLE back when it handled about 12 million passengers a year: http://www.cleveland-cle
42 michman : DL agreed to give up it's idle gates in the closed Concourse A in exchange for relief in it's lease payments. Concourse A is scheduled to re-open this
43 ASFlyer : You know what's interesting though? DTW seems to be moving towards what CVG was in it's last big days - an RJ hub. More and more of the DL domestic s
44 deltaflyertoo : I've wondered this too. I've wondered (and willing to be educated don't want to come off ignorant) what DTW has to offer seeing the city itself has b
45 slcdeltarumd11 : I think delta has kept up as much service as it has just because its paying for the facilities. Even if it isnt making money it could be the formula t
46 Gunsontheroof : While that's true, it still suffers from the stigma of having a strong, entrenched carrier. For that matter, it might be the largest market unserved,
47 slcdeltarumd11 : CVG is still a great facililty and delta still connnects a good amount of people thru there. Concourse B is still just a great place to connect thru.
48 bjorn14 : WestPac at its peak only had about 70 flights/day (incl. MAX) IIRC
49 flyguy89 : I believed that too until the number of seats on DAY-BWI surpassed seats available on CVG-BWI which is down to just about 3 daily CRJs. CHI from CVG
50 PITrules : Of all the expansions at CVG, it is the extension of 9/27 which made the most sense and gets the most use today. Not at all, CVG was much busier than
51 Post contains images delta2ual : I would love to see that but JetBlue doesn't seem to be interested in the midwest/great lakes region. Many people have that impression but it's not a
52 izbtmnhd : Just FYI. A region doesn't need a hub to have a healthy, growing economy...Columbus and Indianapolis are two good examples. Having a hub dosen't mean
53 steeler83 : I also think DTW is safe for reasons already mentioned. Yes, DL may be cutting things here and there, but I don't see them in retreat mode at all the
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : DTW has a lot of RJs because of the large number of small & mid-sized communities within 500 miles. DL also has an oversupply of 50 seaters that
55 SkyCub : At their peaks, they were pretty similar in size. USAir peaked in PIT during the summer of 2001 with almost 550 daily departures. Delta peaked in CVG
56 flyguy89 : CVG actually peaked in 2005 with 670 something odd daily flights.
57 izbtmnhd : Over the last 20 years, the Detroit metro has has lost the largest percentage of jobs of any large or mid-sized US metro, by far. I'm not trying to b
58 Post contains images ASFlyer : Glad to hear that DTW's prospects as a hub for DL remain good. That's where I got my start in the industry back in 1985 so it holds sentimental value
59 Post contains links paneuropean : So what are your thoughts about a possible B6 hub? Even though it seems quite hypothetical. I assume CVG could play a perfect role as a midwest hub fo
60 csturdiv : A few years ago when the Chicago Bears "played" the Cincinnati Bengals, I flew with a friend in his Piper Meridian from DPA-CVG on the Saturday aftern
61 SouthernDC9 : But JetBlue doesn't strike me as a terribly hubby airline, really - it seems their success is based on the fact that they're not so dependent on conn
62 B4REAL : DTW has one big difference compared to the CVG of old, all of the Asia routes. Further, there actually is O&D to support it. I think that, couple
63 PHX787 : Most of the heavy cargo jets at CVG now use RWY27/9 I remember the gold ol' days of the heavies coming into CVG: 2 764s, the 777 to CDG, and the AF 3
64 Post contains links michman : According to several sources I found that CVG is not listed in the right category below. Correct me if I'm wrong! http://www.worldairportawards.com/Aw
65 deltaflyertoo : You may have been in in between a "bank". Most of the hubs group dozens of flights to arrive at once and depart at once an hour later with downtime i
66 Post contains images paneuropean : I knew I was right. I started this topic, right But it is such a dramatic drop; It's even worse than BRU or ZRH after Sabena and Swissair went bankru
67 Post contains images CompensateMe : No doubt the regional jet played a role in the demise of CVG, but it was because airlines could now use such jets to reach smaller/medium-sized marke
68 toltommy : Do a search, you'll find many of examples of people claiming their city/market to be "the largest not served by WN" DAY isn't much, if any, further f
69 Post contains links and images CompensateMe : The USA is certainly not the superpower it was in the 20th century, but it's still a superpower right? You say you're not trying to bash Detroit, but
70 PHX787 : I looked at the renovations to both the main terminal and Concourse A and it looks like they did a really good job! I hope the place fills up soon.
71 SkyCub : Thank you for that information, flyguy89.... I really had NO idea that Delta's CVG hub peaked at almost 700 daily flights! Wow! Truly incredible! The
72 Post contains images CompensateMe : In fairness, CVG's service levels were heavily inflated after DL closed DFW. Equally incredible is the amount of cash DL was hemorrhaging during this
73 CIDFlyer : I show DAY to be roughly 70 miles from downtown Cincinnati on google maps, so that would be much further from the northern Kentucky Suburbs and proba
74 PHX787 : Takes me 45 minutes to get into Dayton from Bridgetown (westside) The problem with DAY is that there is very limited service. People like me and my f
75 Post contains images BMI727 : Our technology? Do you own the patent? Do I? Where's my license fee? And the cool part about having a trade secret is that you can do what you like w
76 Flytravel : Cincinnati MSA has over 2 Million residents and is 27th on the list. WN does service an airport at every MSA above it. The only other area in the low
77 Post contains images CompensateMe : Wow, you've rendered me wrong. I'm speechless . Let's sell arms to North Korea. We'll make a few bucks, nothing wrong with that! Hey, it's America, r
78 BMI727 : Do you have any evidence that any American company's outsourcing actually violated ITAR?
79 toltommy : Because they'll make more money deploying the assets in a market where they don't have competition from 3 other carriers. CVG-MDW would be a bloodbat
80 CompensateMe : Huh? I know it's Friday night, but... No rational, sensible person would ever argue against that outsourcing and moving jobs offshore has led to the
81 flyguy89 : I seriously doubt DL would be as predatory as they were in the old days. Additionally, in many other ex-MDW markets such as IND, CMH, and SDF there i
82 SkyCub : Exactly, were WN to start flying CVG-MDW, Delta would start that route with mainline service, competitive fares and frequent flyer bonuses. All of a
83 Post contains images CompensateMe : From the CVG area, easy access to airports with lower fares -- and often among the lowest fares in the country is available. People living in the sub
84 jbmitt : I think WN could be strong with 4-5x MDW, 3x BWI, 2x BNA, 2x DEN throw in a MCO, FLL, LAS, or PHX
85 slcdeltarumd11 : Even if non stops to unique markets dissapear by southwest entering its still good for business since deltas last minute fares are so high. If you run
86 Cubsrule : Check the opening day schedules to places like BOS, MSP, CHS, and GSP and then let's talk about this "business model" of opening a city with 10-13 da
87 STT757 : Hub?... It's never even going to be a spoke for B6.
88 Post contains links paneuropean : This newsfootage tells it all.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez8Qja116Gs
89 B747forever : Wow, that was very informative, and indeed, it tells it all.
90 STT757 : That was from 2010, what has changed in the last two years?
91 Post contains images flyguy89 : Delta doesn't really do that anymore. When CVG was a 600 daily flight fortress hub this was their common strategy, but nowadays I don't think they'll
92 PSU.DTW.SCE : One needs to consider DL's ORD operation when making a comparison in capacity. No suprise that DL's MDW capacity is way less, but it becomes much clo
93 PHX787 : Cincy's metro area is bigger than Cleveland's (WN service), Columbus's (WN service), Indy's (WN service), Louisville (WN service), and a number of ot
94 CompensateMe : Anytime an airport loses direct service, it loses a small number of passengers who utilized that service. I didn't say that losing the hub would equa
95 Cubsrule : Your point has changed but my question is the same. In Raleigh and Nashville, which "local businesses that rel[ied] on reduced services" relocated em
96 flyguy89 : You keep repeating this but that doesn't make it true. As I said earlier, as someone who is currently living and studying business here, I keep prett
97 LAXLocal : Delta has been "fleecing" the Cincinnati business community for years. Flying out of CVG to almost anywhere is and has been outrageous. I can fly LAX-
98 mayor : And yet everyone on here considers ORD/MDW one market.........if that's the case, you have to include DL's ORD-ATL numbers. Now who's the leader?
99 Cubsrule : Again, my point isn't who the "leader" is. It's that DL isn't dumping capacity in to MDW to fight WN. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.
100 CIDFlyer : Sad that CVG's once proud DL hub has shrunk so much. I remember flying through there being impressed with how large it was and how DL touted CVG back
101 EricR : It is better to rise and fall than to not have risen at all. As recent trends show, the hub and spoke system works best when the hub is located in a l
102 mayor : And my point is they don't have to, because they have the ORD service, too.
103 Post contains images CompensateMe : How has my point changed? And both RDU and BNA were clearly short-lived experiments.
104 DTWLAX : Why do you think only ATL-MDW is evenly matched for DL and WN? Because both airports are kind of hubs for WN (if you consider FL at ATL) and DL wants
105 Cubsrule : I agree. In your zeal to defend DL and attack anyone who might be criticizing DL, you missed that. Your argument that businesses will relocate employ
106 CompensateMe : Hmm, interesting, let's review what I wrote: and then... So, I ask you: (1) When did say DL potentially closing CVG would create a poor business envi
107 SYfan100 : No one ever likes to have their city lose their hub status because of a airline cutting flights down. No one likes to pay really high fares because th
108 CIDFlyer : or even MSP....although ORD these days doesnt seem to be quote as bad with the opening of the new northern runway back in 2008
109 mayor : No I didn't......I just didn't say it right away, but I DID say it.......
110 RWA380 : Very sad indeed, I remember flying DL PDX-CVG-ORD, just so I could get on the M11 between PDX and CVG, got to fly BizElite, I remember how impressed
111 B4REAL : Actually, Concourse A is fine. The DL Sky Club, or Crown Room as it last operated, didn't get many/any modernizations over the years, but it was quit
112 Post contains links STT757 : That's great news for jobs in the area, however I can only imagine he types of incentives CVG had to offer up to "land" the new DHL hub. I'm sure it'
113 flyguy89 : CVG itself can't give any incentives, however what the commonwealth of Kentucky or the Northern Kentucky Chamber worked out with DHL I'm not sure. DH
114 STT757 : You don't think they were given any breaks on landing fees?
115 flyguy89 : I know they weren't. It's an old state law in Kentucky, essentially CVG could not have given DHL breaks on landing fees without offering the same dea
116 Cubsrule : Regardless of whether it's one point or two, my question is the same: where's the empirical evidence of this trend in other shuttered hubs?
117 asteriskceo : Those poor, poor vending machines. Breaks my heart.
118 markalot : I live and work in Cincinnati and I've never heard this. Can you provide a source? Can you also provide a statistic that shows population is decreasi
119 PHX787 : The US Census report shows a decline between 2000 and 2010; primarily in the city proper itself. The population of the county is stagnating at around
120 LHCVG : +1, x2. Losing Chiquita was a blow, but a minor one. The big players are all entrenched and staying--P&G, Kroger, Great American (who just built
121 flyguy89 : Once again, yes the population of Cincinnati and Hamilton County have long been declining, nothing new there, but it's irrelevant in the context of C
122 LHCVG : And I have many friends I grew up with who plan on staying in Cincinnati. Many people have left, myself among them, but that doesn't mean "everyone"
123 seatback : Absolutely false as mentioned by others. Spare us the drama. I live here too and know that while the City of Cincinnati proper may be declining, peop
124 comairguycvg : For me, being in Cincinnati for almost 5 years was nothing but a disaster. I got on with OH on 9-12-05, then 2 days later DL and OH file for bankruptc
125 PHX787 : It's not just the merger either. You all seem so negative at my comments, but when you lived in Cincinnati for 18 years like I did, you really see no
126 flyguy89 : Negative because they aren't true. I really don't understand your irrational insistence on painting this 'doom and gloom' narrative for Cincinnati wh
127 izbtmnhd : Go onto the US BLS website, pull up the graph total jobs graph of the Detroit metro over the last 20 years and find me another US metro with over 1 m
128 Cubsrule : Yes, but that's a vast oversimplification as far as demand for air service is concerned. The $25/hour line worker at GM or Chrysler doesn't do much a
129 izbtmnhd : Really? You think managers and others don't lose their jobs when line workers are laid off? I really don't get the issue here, I'm just trying to pai
130 Cubsrule : Did I say that? No. I said - and it's true - that line workers (and other low wage blue collar jobs) comprise most of the job losses. If we were to l
131 CompensateMe : I really don't get the issue, either. Nobody is arguing, or has ever argued, that Detroit has not regressed. But Detroit remains a much stronger busi
132 izbtmnhd : Again, the Detroit metro is a larger market so it's going to have a larger business community than the other cities I mentioned. Still the Detroit me
133 CompensateMe : I never claimed you made any facts up. I'm pointing out that DTW maintains a significantly stronger local market (I'm referring to O/D traffic) with
134 izbtmnhd : Let me make this clear, I don't care about Detroit. I have no problems with Delta's operation there. I never claimed that CLE or CVG or PIT or MKE sh
135 PSU.DTW.SCE : Look no one is making that accusation. There is one, and only one poster on here is continually is lamenting about doom and gloom in Cinncy, buy gran
136 LHCVG : Truer words have never been spoken on this forum.
137 PHX787 : Oh trust me I've flown through DTW many times and it's a great hub...at the same time, IMO, I think CVG's owners and operators, as well as the Cincin
138 Cubsrule : So what, 10 US cities (9 of which are larger than CVG) have "decent service?"
139 LHCVG : Perhaps, but you're neglecting what routes are feasible for the airlines to operate. For example, Cincinnati wants FRA service, but clearly it was no
140 PHX787 : Again, I bring the question, why would the price for the airline to fly be considered "unprofitable?"
141 slcdeltarumd11 : I agree that CVG does not have as much service as it should and it hurts business but i think the nearby airports with so much LCC presence are reall
142 LHCVG : Simple: because if it were profitable (in the eyes on an individual airline), they would fly these theoretical routes of yours. Put another way, CVG,
143 Post contains images EricR : In fact, looking at the census information, only 3 of the top 30 largest metro areas lost population from 2000 to 2011, and the greater Cincinnati me
144 toltommy : What could that possibly be based on? Exactly. CVG's future is based on O&D alone, not connecting traffic. The sooner the locals realize it, and
145 Post contains images CompensateMe : Then you and I can both agree on something: I, too, get annoyed when people repeatedly make false and/or misleading assertions (after such have been
146 B4REAL : This never would have had enough traction to happen. CVG was receiving service cuts during the merger steadily, then accelerated after the merger. Ev
147 Cubsrule : Let me suggest that it's so obvious that you don't need any statistics. For the past decade, hubs that are in strategically important locations (e.g.
148 CIDFlyer : totally agree!
149 slcdeltarumd11 : Of all the factors that make hubs successful I think you need a little of each to survive and consistently make profits. Plus looking at the future hu
150 EricR : I also think the cause of many hub closures is attributed to mergers. Newly merged carriers cherry pick the best hubs and eliminate the weakest hubs.
151 Cubsrule : Absolutely agree. I had meant for my second category (unique traffic flows) to pick that up. STL was unique for TW, not so unique for AA. MEM was uni
152 slcdeltarumd11 : RDU, PIT, MKE are all medium sized markets, no tourist traffic, small premium markets, extremely close to better options aka better hubs, cities that
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