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TSA Defends Pat-down Of 4-year-old  
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5632 times:

Oy vey.... Again, what happened to common sense and dignity? I thought the rule on patting down children under 12 was revised and more customer friendly.

The child had just learned about "stranger-danger" at her preschool and became hysterical, said her grandmother, after she was forced to undergo an airport-security pat-down and TSA agents shouted.

Strangers yelling at kids is not exactly a good idea.... I think the TSA failed in this one, although the TSA backs up the agents in this case. They always do.

Again, what is the rule on patting down children 12 and under?? I'm confused.... This looks like bait and switch to me.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...uschildairportscreeningkansas.html

The Transportation Security Administration is defending its agents, despite new procedures aimed at reducing pat-downs of children.

Ummm, okay..... Still, people should not scare children like that...let alone yell at them.

Isabella had just learned about "stranger danger" at school, her grandmother said, adding that the girl was afraid and unsure about what was going on.

"She started to cry, saying 'No I don't want to,' and when we tried talking to her she ran," Croft said. "They yelled, 'We are going to shut down the airport if you don't grab her.'"


Shutting down the airport is quite over-dramatic..... What is a 4 year old gonna do?!

How do we solve this problem and how are kids under 7 supposed to be treated? Thoughts?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5157 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5563 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Thread starter):
Shutting down the airport is quite over-dramatic..... What is a 4 year old gonna do?!

It is not inconceivable that a weapon be passed to a toddler, only to have it passed back to the terrorist on the other side of security. Remember, it is not what the 4 year old can do, it is what the weapon he smuggled through can do.

Quoting AirframeAS (Thread starter):
How do we solve this problem and how are kids under 7 supposed to be treated? Thoughts?

In my opinion, this is the real issue. With present technology, what is the only acceptable way to "secure" a young traveler? Full body scan? X-ray? I do agree that a pat-down may not be acceptable.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Thread starter):
Shutting down the airport is quite over-dramatic..... What is a 4 year old gonna do?!

It is not what the 4 year old may do. It is what may have been transferred to her at the time she goes back to someone who hasn't been cleared.

Quoting AirframeAS (Thread starter):
How do we solve this problem and how are kids under 7 supposed to be treated? Thoughts?

Same way everyone else should be treated, with respect.

No doubt there are shortcomings.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

TSA did nothing wrong in wanting to pat her down - she'd had contact with someone who hadn't been cleared yet. That's not to say that the process of actually patting her down could have been done better, but this would hardly be the first incident that could apply to....

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineaa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5395 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
In my opinion, this is the real issue. With present technology, what is the only acceptable way to "secure" a young traveler? Full body scan? X-ray? I do agree that a pat-down may not be acceptable.

The world isn't a secure place. We send them through a metal detector and let a TSA employee wand them down with a metal wand. We certainly don't let strangers grope them while they're crying.

In the twenty-first century, 3,000 people have died from aviation related terrorism. That's how many people have died in fatal car accidents in the last two weeks, many of whom were following every law on the book. If we were really concerned about our safety, maybe we would have written the blank check to state DOTs, not the TSA.


User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

Yes, I will admit that conceivably a child can be used in some terrorist plot. But I feel like the TSA are just going through these checks blind as though they must thoroughly check 1 kid for every 100 that go through security without giving any thought to which child that should be. The TSA needs far more training than they have and they need to be able to openly profile. Yes TSA very well may have stopped another attack but in my opinion TSA is a joke, and this is from someone who has been through security throughtout the world 200+ times in the past 3 years

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
Remember, it is not what the 4 year old can do, it is what the weapon he smuggled through can do.
Quoting cmf (Reply 2):
It is not what the 4 year old may do. It is what may have been transferred to her at the time she goes back to someone who hasn't been cleared.

I am very well aware of that. The point I was making is when a TSA agent YELLS at a child, that does not bode well with the parents and the TSA. Yelling at kids just scares them and creates a lot of misunderstanding.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
TSA did nothing wrong in wanting to pat her down

Maybe. But again, what i find wrong is how the knee jerk overrection on the TSA agnet's part is what boggles my mind. Yelling at a child, again, is not acceptable!

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
ut this would hardly be the first incident that could apply to....

No one said it was the first.    The TSA terrified the child - full stop - in what triggered the incident to happen.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Yelling at a child, again, is not acceptable!

Depends. It should certainly not be the first course of action. However, if you need a child to do something, and previous attempts haven't worked, I can't really fault someone for yelling at them. Parents do it all the time.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Depends. It should certainly not be the first course of action. However, if you need a child to do something, and previous attempts haven't worked, I can't really fault someone for yelling at them. Parents do it all the time.

I see your point, but when a stranger like in this incident yells at a child, that promotes fear in the child. And the child will do anything to protect themselves from said fear, going to someone they know well in which this one child did in this case.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
when a stranger like in this incident yells at a child, that promotes fear in the child. And the child will do anything to protect themselves from said fear, going to someone they know well in which this one child did in this case.

Except that the child went to her grandmother in the first place - that's what made the pat-down necessary. The yelling was because she didn't want to do the pat-down. I can't imagine it helped the situation, but it's not clear what options remained open to them.

The child certainly didn't do anything wrong (well, they broke TSA policy by making contact with someone who hadn't been cleared, but how are they supposed to know not to do that), but I'm not convinced that the TSA staff did something wrong as well. They might have, but they also might not.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
but I'm not convinced that the TSA staff did something wrong as well.

Are you suggesting that a child being yelled at by the TSA staff was correct? But then you said this:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
The child certainly didn't do anything wrong (well, they broke TSA policy by making contact with someone who hadn't been cleared, but how are they supposed to know not to do that)

   The TSA agent triggered the situation. This could have been prevented had the TSA agent walked up to the parents or the grandmother and explain, politely, what was going on instead of getting all upset and angry at a 4 year old.

Lets put it this way, a TSA agent yelling at a 4 year old unprofessionally is more than likely to be acting like a 4 year old and should not be a TSA agent to begin with. After all, the TSA is doing two things: 1) Security and 2) Customer Service, as they say on their website.

So who is at fault? Both parties, but the blame lies mostly on the TSA agent who yelled at the kid. The TSA Agent needs a reality check. How would YOU feel if a TSA agent yelled at YOUR kid?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
And the child will do anything to protect themselves from said fear, going to someone they know well in which this one child did in this case.

   A 4 year old is not going to understand security measures and why...at all.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5115 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
The TSA agent triggered the situation.

Not according to the article.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
This could have been prevented had the TSA agent walked up to the parents or the grandmother and explain, politely, what was going on instead of getting all upset and angry at a 4 year old.

There is nothing in your article to suggest that this didn't happen. All it says is that the agents insisted she be patted down after hugging her grandmother. It was only after the girl didn't want to to do the pat-down that things escalated badly.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
How would YOU feel if a TSA agent yelled at YOUR kid?

Depending on the circumstances, I might be okay with it. Like I said, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about this, and since the article doesn't offer any evidence that things were done incorrectly, I can't conclusively say that the TSA people did their job poorly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5014 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Not according to the article.

Did you even read the article?? The article clearly states it:

Quoting Seattletimes.com (Reply website):
The grandmother of a 4-year-old girl who became hysterical during a security screening at a Kansas airport said Wednesday that the child was forced to undergo a pat-down after hugging her, with security agents yelling and calling the crying girl an uncooperative suspect.

This is the first paragraph taken from that article. Please, read the article.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
The article clearly states

Operative words, "the grandmother ...said". Is there any independent corroboration?

We all know how easy it is for people to embellish the truth, if not exactly invent it, particularly on Facebook. The article does not state that the TSA yelled at the child but that they allegedly yelled at the mother and grandmother.

The article also states: "The TSA released a statement Tuesday saying it explained to the family why additional security procedures were necessary..."

So we have two versions of events. Toss a coin to see who you believe.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4976 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
Toss a coin to see who you believe.

Not the TSA. Not by a long shot.

Meanwhile, I brought a bottle of water into the sterile area the other day, and didn't have to go through a single checkpoint to do it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4917 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
what is the only acceptable way to "secure" a young traveler? Full body scan? X-ray?

And sharing some good risk of cancer to this child – just because in the US of Paranoia, also every toddler is a security risk.  

What about closing down any aviation – just because any passenger, pilot, FA, suitcase, cargo, bird (which can have strapped on a explosive device, who knows?), etc, etc. is a potentially risk for security.

This is really unbelievable and it is also unbelivable that some here defend this child assault.
If an agent in Germany would have behaved like this, he/she would have lost his/her job and the crowd around them would have interfered immediately and helped the toddler!
Thank goodness, the last time we saw something like this was in the Nazi era. Even in comunist East Germany, in its darkest times, police didn't deal with toddlers in that way!

[Edited 2012-04-26 23:40:11]

[Edited 2012-04-27 00:00:10]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4842 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Did you even read the article??

Do you think I made up "All it says is that the agents insisted she be patted down after hugging her grandmother. It was only after the girl didn't want to to do the pat-down that things escalated badly."?

That comes from the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5743 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4787 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
The article does not state that the TSA yelled at the child but that they allegedly yelled at the mother and grandmother.


Yelling at anyone is unprofessional and unnecessary

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
"The TSA released a statement Tuesday saying it explained to the family why additional security procedures were necessary..."


From what I read I don't think the family had any issues on "why" the main issue seems to be the "how"?



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinevt977 From India, joined May 2005, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4774 times:

that's what happens well somebody with the intellect of a 1 day old is in charge of security


A conclusion is what you reach when you get tired of thinking.
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4727 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
The article also states: "The TSA released a statement Tuesday saying it explained to the family why additional security procedures were necessary..."

Did they yell that information or calmly explain it in a non-threatening manner.

I go through TSA checks at least once a week over the last 4 years, they are rude, stand off-ish and bored. I have seen TSA staff being obnoxious to adults and kids. They barely watch the pax going through, they rely on pat-downs and scanners rather than decent training in people skills.

There is a big difference between stating something authoritatively and shouting at a crowd.


User currently offlinestandby87 From Switzerland, joined Jul 2001, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

I do wonder what the Israelis at Tel Aviv think of stories like this.

Let's be honest, TLV security are not exactly polite, but they would never have let this situation happen.
NEVER.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
Yelling at anyone is unprofessional and unnecessary

Fully agree. Not only that, it is counter-productive.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 19):
Did they yell that information or calmly explain it in a non-threatening manner.

Who knows? While some posters claim that all TSA members are ignorant, illiterate savages others have indicated that they haven't met with any problems. As I said, there are two different versions of events.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

Quoting vt977 (Reply 18):
that's what happens well somebody with the intellect of a 1 day old is in charge of security

And when people with half that intellect think they know how it should be.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 19):
I go through TSA checks at least once a week over the last 4 years, they are rude, stand off-ish and bored. I have seen TSA staff being obnoxious to adults and kids.

That is not my experience. But I don't go in there with a chip on my shoulder.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9740 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

A four year old child is a "suspect" ???

Where is common sense in this matter? Don't these people have children themselves? Can't they understand that a small child does not understand this kind of abusement and is terrified by what is happening? Especially when she is yelled at and touched by starngers?

The parents should sue TSA over this incident. A simple check with a handheld wand would have done it. Only female TSA personell should be allowed to do that and they should calm down the child by talking to her.

The child showed normal behaviour for a 4 year old, the child cannot be blamed for running to her Grandma spontaneously. The reaction of TSA agents was plain dumb, reckless, without consideration and most certainly without a grain of common sense.

Now please don't tell me there are rules and regulations. Public servants here are taught not to obey rules and regulations that are against common sense or simply criminal. Traumatizing a four year old child is a criminal act, managers who enforce that or establish rules that make this possible should be kicked out instantly.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Do you think I made up "All it says is that the agents insisted she be patted down after hugging her grandmother. It was only after the girl didn't want to to do the pat-down that things escalated badly."?

That comes from the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs.

So you went back and actually read the article.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
Yelling at anyone is unprofessional and unnecessary

   As I said before, I am willing to bet that this is what triggered the whole incident.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
From what I read I don't think the family had any issues on "why" the main issue seems to be the "how"?

Agreed.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 21):
Not only that, it is counter-productive.

Exactly! Especially with kids... they don't understand why and how at that age. They are told not to talk to strangers. This girl did exactly that, it seems, and got scared and went to the person she knew well. Yelling at kids, again, is NOT a good idea to do, period. Some people here seem to not able to grasp that at all.   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
Don't these people have children themselves? Can't they understand that a small child does not understand this kind of abusement and is terrified by what is happening? Especially when she is yelled at and touched by starngers?

That was my point all along. Common sense thrown out the window..... ridiculous!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
Now please don't tell me there are rules and regulations.

There are... LOL. But I wanted to know what ever happened to that rule about patting down kids under 12?! That got thrown out the window in this situation. Why?!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 PanHAM : Of course there are rules and regulations, but quoting my sentence you have to show the following sentence as well. I think "common sense" is the key
26 B2468 : In a situation where a properly trained TSA agent believes a young child might be a threat and require additional screening, why can't they take the c
27 Eagleboy : I think incident is another example of how the USA has actually 'lost' the War on Terror on one level. They are changing their society to deal with a
28 stealthz : Because it isn't ...NOT EVER There are other ways they could have determined if this child was a threat. If they actually ever learn that there are o
29 Post contains images PanHAM : The assumption that a four year old child is a threat is so utterly stupid and ridiculous that any government agency that acts on such assumptions mu
30 javibi : Why didn't they make the mother and the child go back and through the metal detector again to rule out the possibility of a weapon being handed to the
31 B2468 : 100% agree. Don't get me wrong, I am very much in agreement with your thoughts, and I abhor the TSA, and while TSA could have been done right, I thin
32 PanHAM : we are talking about an average American family here, mom and grandma inclusive. I would agree with you if there would have been a certain ethnic bac
33 Post contains images B2468 : I'm pretty sure you and I are on the same page here...the TSA agents involved did not have the proper training to correctly ascertain the threat pose
34 cmf : While I agree the fear of terrorism has made this country overreact and implement a lot of poor rules, you're suggestion that they should be excluded
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