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Emirates - Debunking Myths Over Subsidies  
User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 19661 times:

I was sent this document today which has been prepared by Emirates:

Airlines and Subsidy: Our Position

The document appears to be well-researched and some key highlights (it is definitely worth reading in full) are:

  • Examples of recent airline subsidies including AI, JL, JK, CY, OK, AZ and MA

  • Rebuttals to quotes from: AC, Association of European Airlines, AF KLM, OS, LH, Australia Workers' Union and Athena Aviation

  • A timeline of some notable airline state support events including: EI, AF, AZ, BA, IB, LH, OA, QF, TP and LX

  • Supporting quote from their auditors PwC

  • Accusing Star Alliance member airlines of taking subsidies totalling €6.8bn, of which LH Group comprises €3.125bn

  • Explanation of Emirates' sourcing of finance (US$26bn over the last 15 years)

  • A comparison of airline costs and airport costs

  • An explanation of Emirates' oil procurement including quotes from Chevron, BP and Shell





  • The compelling document will make uncomfortable reading for those that insist that Emirates is subsidised. Further, it shows that some of the most vocal airlines who claims such as these are the ones who have themselves received financial and aeropolitical subsidies.

    Subsidies aside, the graphic showing unit cost comparison just shows how competitive Emirates is.

    I think it's a very well-researched document that deals in facts rather than hyperbole.


    Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
    173 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
     
    User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5579 posts, RR: 5
    Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19696 times:

    I think you should sell tickets to watch this thread   this is going to be fun....


    Personally I agree with your sentiment. The report makes for fascinating reading.

    A couple of points:

    1) EK's labour costs are higher than SQ and MH.

    2) EK has 46% market share in DXB. That means that 54% of passengers are flying other carriers, putting to bed any claims that DXB's market is "totally artificial" with limited O&D and survives on connections.

    3) EK's fuel costs are pretty much average. Incidentally on this point, I've never understood those who purport that EK receives subsidised oil because even if they did get it in DXB, how do they get free oil in SYD?

    4) Some of the vitriol posted by other groups (lead by Air Canada) is unbelievable. Honestly, I have no idea why EK have never sued for libel given that some of their competitors allegations (which they make with no evidence in hand) are pretty damning. Incidentally some of the people should just have kept quiet. For example, I can't figure out why the Australian Workers Union chimed in. The only work group at QF which AWU represents are the engineers and they should be much more concerned by the fact that QF can perform their functions for less in Asia than the extent of competition (fair or otherwise) which QF is faced with on flights to Europe.


    Just my 2c. I know others will disagree.



    Worked Hard, Flew Right
    User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19630 times:

    This should be fun to watch  


    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
    User currently offlineboeing773W From South Africa, joined Mar 2012, 47 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19615 times:

    Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Thread starter):
    I think it's a very well-researched document that deals in facts rather than hyperbole.

    It was prepared by Emirates. What else did you expect them to say?!?

    They've engaged in a campaign of trying to portray other airlines in a bad light for receiving various funds/bailouts, which according to EK amount to subsidies. Are and are they trying to use that as an excuse for something?!?

    Also, with respect, but a quote "from their auditors PWC" means nothing. Of course their own auditors will confirm EK's story. An auditor's report is effectively an opinion and nothing more. Most aren't worth the paper they're written on frankly (think back to Arthur Andersen's "audits" of Enron and you get the picture).

    This whole thing from EK reminds me a bit of the old saying 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

    [Edited 2012-04-28 01:56:23]

    User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 384 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19510 times:

    Quote:

    Mr Spinetta describes the Gulf region in broad
    terms that distort reality. Dubai has none of
    the oil wealth of its neighbours, which is why
    it pioneered service-based companies such as
    Emirates. As a result, Emirates is unique in the
    Middle East for having consistently produced
    profits due to our strong commercial mandate.
    We have been run in this way since October
    1985. There is nothing secondary about
    profitability for Emirates, which taps international
    lenders for its financing needs and thus needs to
    operate on a profitable basis in order to service
    these loans.

    Dubai as a emirate could not afford its expansion without Abu Dhabi. I did not see this mentioned at all in this document. Its benefit from its oil neighbor is very broadbased across its entire economy.

    DXB and EK would not have had their successes without the Abu Dhabi subsidy. They are very interlinked in my view. Without the bailout in 2009-2010 Dubai as a emirate would have had to seek help from the IMF. I would love to see how this all benefitted EK but sadly this document did not mention it. Obviously a scenario which would have played out was for the Dubai emirate to sell its state assets including EK but as it was eventually bailed out this scenario did not happen.

    Without the bailout the cost base would have gone up by means of higher land acquisition cost, higher airport charges, overall increase in tax level across the society which feed through as higher operational cost, a decrease in city infrustructure investment in all levels.

    The issue of tax was a one pager, page 25, with very little statistics...the villa looks nice though as crew housing.

    The document's conclusion in page 27 is almost unreadable in light of the above.

    [Edited 2012-04-28 02:25:25]

    User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
    Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19429 times:

    A subsidy is only a subsidy when it is used to support current operations or to keep a defunct company alive.

    I just take 2 items - the € 800 Million Lufthansa pension fund - LH was government owned and had a public service pension scheme vs. the regular pension scheme in which private companies pay onthly as do the employees.

    Going public means that the privatized company cannot assume the liabilities of the old company, otherwise the IPO would not have been accepted. The pension fund is a liability of the previous owner, not the new company.,

    AUA - besides the fact that LH has assumed some old debt of AUA, who in his right mind would take over the liabilities of a defunct company? That is the previous owners liability and if the bride is so ugly that she can be married only with a solid dowry. The alternative would have been bancruptcy and a clean sheet company, like Swissair / Swiss.

    That would have been much more expensive for the Austrian state.


    True, many countries subsidize airlines, India is a good, better, a bad example. However, this pamphlet is biased and the bottom line is what the airline wanted to read.



    E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
    User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19402 times:

    Interesting reading. On page 4, they state: "Emirates acknowledges that some airlines in the Middle East are indeed government subsidised ... " Other than a passing reference to Saudi Arabian later in the document, they don't list which ME carriers are benefitting from these subsidies, nor the amounts, while at the same time they go to great lengths to detail what they believe to be gov't subsidies for airlines outside of the region.

    It would be interesting to see the figures for subsidies given to their neighboring competitors in the same detail.



    International Homo of Mystery
    User currently offlinerogercamel From Singapore, joined Feb 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 19380 times:

    Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Thread starter):
    I was sent this document today which has been prepared by Emirates:

    You can tailor virtually any set of statistics to meet your own aims.

    IMHO EK may not receive subsidies in the same way that state airlines have in the past. But - the business environment they find themselves in is probably favourable compared to other airlines, particularly those in the west. I doubt they have the same union issues that US and European carriers do enabling them to react quicker, and be more flexible and re-shapre their business to suit the economics.

    I'd be interested to know how EK has funded its expansion. Has it been through raising debt funding? From equity investors?


    User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4830 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 19317 times:

    I love it how they compare historical subsidies... ie from back in the day when all airlines were pretty much subsidized so it was to be expected and when air routes weren't liberalized to the extent they are now. Emirates didn't even exist when most of these were done so I don't see why they are using them as comparisons.

    They bat away the argument about no tax as saying its a sovereign issue. It is a sovereign issue, but it is the single biggest factor that lowers their overall costs compared to other airlines (hundreds of millions of $ per annum), also factor in aircraft depreciation rates and it is worse still. But it could be argued that it is up to countries to decide what is best for them, in that case other countries should probably impose tariff fares on the likes of EK etc to operate out of their countries. Another option would be for other countries to allow their airlines tax free status themselves. Of course this just opens a big can of worms. If such a thing were to occur then likely fuel tax on jet fuel would need to be imposed at high levels (something which all airlines including EK would have to pay).



    56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
    User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1566 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 19286 times:

    When it all boils down, it is about risk!!

    Having a big brother or sugar daddy allows you to take the risks necessary to grow when more prudent
    operators cannot, because of the risk to shareholders.

    It is about who are the shareholders.
    I don't know who the shreholders are at Emirates, but I would be surprised if it is freely traded.

    Fundamentally, this is the same reason Airbus was able to become the number one Commercial Airliner producer.

    Ruscoe


    User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 237 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 19181 times:

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 7):
    IMHO EK may not receive subsidies in the same way that state airlines have in the past. But - the business environment they find themselves in is probably favourable compared to other airlines, particularly those in the west. I doubt they have the same union issues that US and European carriers do enabling them to react quicker, and be more flexible and re-shapre their business to suit the economics.

    I'd be interested to know how EK has funded its expansion. Has it been through raising debt funding? From equity investors?

    Well, that's more a problem of the other carriers than of EK, right? You can't expect EK to adhere to policies of other countries just to keep a level playing field.

    EK might have expanded using debt funding from equity investors, but don't forget that they are competing against airlines that have enjoyed up to 80 years of regulated government support. It's not an excuse, but it puts things into perspective.


    User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
    Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 19152 times:

    Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
    Having a big brother or sugar daddy allows you to take the risks necessary to grow when more prudent
    operators cannot, because of the risk to shareholders.

    Bingo - not only that. Big brother is the owner, or in the case of Abu Dhabi the uncle of the owner. The owner sets the rules without any public controls. By decret there is an airline which gets all it wants, no night curfews, no obstacles, the owner is at bthe same time the state civl aviation authority. need new terminal? No problem. need new airport with 6 or so unways? Will do it. All that in a fraction of the time it takes in Europe or Norrh America where legal processes have to be observed. Not only in building infrastructure but in managing public corporations as well.



    E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
    User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18949 times:

    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    They've engaged in a campaign

    They are engaged in a campaign and responding to frequent accusations made by some airlines that EK has "unfair" advantages and needs to be curbed. The fact that it was prepared by Emirates does not invalidate the contents, although they will of course have been carefully selected to support the company's position. It would be interesting to see actual facts and figures produced by the opponents of EK, rather than just innuendo and baseless stories.

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
    to detail what they believe to be gov't subsidies for airlines outside of the region.

    Because the push to curb EK's growth is mainly coming from outside the region. AF, LH, AC have loudly and repeatedly made claims without evidence that EK is subsidised, receives cheap fuel, pays no fees at DXB, etc, etc. This pamphlet seeks to refute those claims so obviously it concentrates on those countries where the greatest opposition comes from. But it would be interesting to see to what extent other carriers in the region are subsidised.

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 7):
    I'd be interested to know how EK has funded its expansion

    Through a combination of EXIM guarantees, bond issues, Islamic finance, finance leases...

    Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
    I love it how they compare historical subsidies...

    Emirates has been around since 1985. Some of the "historical subsidies" referred to include 2009 and 2010.

    Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
    impose tariff fares on the likes of EK

    Some bilaterals allow for that: for example Germany has threatened EK with fines if it did not raise its fares on some routes following complaints from LH.

    Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
    I don't know who the shreholders are at Emirates,

    EK is part of the Emirates Group which is owned by the Dubai Investment Corporation, a government corporation.


    User currently offlinerogercamel From Singapore, joined Feb 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18947 times:

    Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 10):
    Well, that's more a problem of the other carriers than of EK, right?

    What I was trying to say is that even though EK may not receive subsidies, it does have business advantages against other carriers. Be that through the tax policies.



    Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
    It is about who are the shareholders.
    I don't know who the shreholders are at Emirates, but I would be surprised if it is freely traded.

    My thoughts too. If the investors are government owned companies they will take a different view in relation to expected returns and approach for risk.


    User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18934 times:

    Oh the EK debate again, but this time stirred up by the airline itself.

    Whatever the reason, it should just focus on itself instead of spin to further enhance its strong position.


    User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8373 posts, RR: 10
    Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 18856 times:

    Debunking myths? Looks more like they're digging a bigger hole for themselves  
    Even if they're better than the rest, they clearly don't understand the ingrained menthality in the West: Never trust a government entity. And that's exactly what EK is, a government entity. Usually when a government entity puts out something like this it's because they're trying to hide something. Whether that's true or not for EK, it really doesn't matter because of popular perception. They should just continue to focus on what they do best.


    User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
    Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 18813 times:

    Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
    Even if they're better than the rest, they clearly don't understand the ingrained menthality in the West: Never trust a government entity.

    I'd say more than likely an ingrained mentality in the USA, not the West. Thanks to the GOP and Tea Party, in part. And I am not entirely convinced that statement is completely true in the USA, if I may say. In Canada, for example, there is trust in a number of government institutions, the health care system for one, justice another. Frustration at times, absolutely. It's not always done right, but usually. We rely on it.

    Off-topic, and apologies for that, but your statement is rather sweeping.



    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 18687 times:

    Oh goody. The perfect cure for a sore-throat ravaged Saturday morning.  

    I haven't even read the article yet, but I see the same old objections are all over the place.

    From where I stand, this is a biased piece of paper. But so what? It is another voice on an issue that has been far too one-sided in the recent past. I have spent the last few days scrolling through the Canadian Senate's ongoing hearing about the state of the airline industry in Canada, and the one thing that struck me is that there are a lot of myths that are being propogated by Air Canada that are being relentlessly dismissed by academics, bureaucrats etc at the Senate. A lot of those myths appear on Air Canada related threads here. I imagine the same can be said for a lot of other criticism by other carriers.

    As far as I am concerned, this is a welcome addition to the literature on the topic, but it does not represent the whole story or the final say. It simply brings to the fore things that other airlines have been reluctant to talk about. From the perspective of a.net, I think a report like this should be welcomed, because it contributes to the overall shedding of light on the topic from a variety of angles, rather than the usual anti-EK diatribes. There is an element of self-righteousness in these debates that we should take into account - from both sides. This document, flawed though it likely will be, will contribute to perhaps a fairer assessment of the situation. Let us also consider the words of a cheeky Frenchman who famously said "The English created the idea of fairness and generously let everyone else put it into practice". Let us thank the English for their generosity and do that, shall we?

    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    They've engaged in a campaign of trying to portray other airlines in a bad light for receiving various funds/bailouts, which according to EK amount to subsidies. Are and are they trying to use that as an excuse for something?!?

    Or they're just pointing out that people in glass houses shouldn't....walk around without any clothes on. Or something to that effect.

    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    Also, with respect, but a quote "from their auditors PWC" means nothing. Of course their own auditors will confirm EK's story. An auditor's report is effectively an opinion and nothing more. Most aren't worth the paper they're written on frankly (think back to Arthur Andersen's "audits" of Enron and you get the picture).

    If auditing is such a hoax, why does anyone even bother. To be quite honest, this comment makes no sense. PWC is a global brand, not the guy down the road. Their 'opinion' is informed. They have a global presence so their quality holds some water with people. Perhaps because they generally do get it right?

    Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 4):
    Dubai as a emirate could not afford its expansion without Abu Dhabi. I did not see this mentioned at all in this document. Its benefit from its oil neighbor is very broadbased across its entire economy.

    After subsidizing EK, Abu Dhabi decided to create its own airline to compete with EK generally on the same routes. It all adds up. Or does it?

    Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 4):
    DXB and EK would not have had their successes without the Abu Dhabi subsidy.

    Again, why would Abu Dhabi subsidize EK and DXB when its entered into direct competition with them. Does the Abu Dhabi emir get kicks out of giving EK money while EY helps him lose some money? It would take a real leap of irrationality to engage in this strategy of supporting one's main competitor at the one's own cost.

    Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 4):
    Obviously a scenario which would have played out was for the Dubai emirate to sell its state assets including EK but as it was eventually bailed out this scenario did not happen.

    As opposed to the bailouts all over the world that have left many more people unemployed than employed? Selling state assets for a bailout is great, but if you can avoid it, wouldn't you? Look at unemployment rates in Greece right now.

    Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
    True, many countries subsidize airlines, India is a good, better, a bad example. However, this pamphlet is biased and the bottom line is what the airline wanted to read.

    I don't think it was ever meant to be unbiased. It is merely a response to the equally biased 'facts' coming out of LH.

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 7):
    You can tailor virtually any set of statistics to meet your own aims.

    Which everyone is doing, so why not EK as well? AC famously declared that a daily EK flight to YYZ would result in tens of thousands of job losses - a claim repeated by the then-transport Minister who, as the present foreign minister, has done more to improve Canada-UAE relations than any of his predeccessors.

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 7):
    the business environment they find themselves in is probably favourable compared to other airlines, particularly those in the west. I doubt they have the same union issues that US and European carriers do enabling them to react quicker, and be more flexible and re-shapre their business to suit the economics.

    Indeed, but that is hardly their fault. I don't care much for the labor angle. Fact is, if we did, Airlines would open themselves up for criticism given their willingness to buy products from countries with equally lax labor laws (pillows and whatnot from China etc).

    Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
    Having a big brother or sugar daddy allows you to take the risks necessary to grow when more prudent
    operators cannot, because of the risk to shareholders.

    Amen, as we have seen in Canada with Air Canada and the government. But that said, most Euro legacy carriers also had sugar daddies during their inception and consolidation stages. Where would they have been witout government support in those critical early years?

    Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
    Bingo - not only that. Big brother is the owner, or in the case of Abu Dhabi the uncle of the owner. The owner sets the rules without any public controls. By decret there is an airline which gets all it wants, no night curfews, no obstacles, the owner is at bthe same time the state civl aviation authority. need new terminal? No problem. need new airport with 6 or so unways? Will do it. All that in a fraction of the time it takes in Europe or Norrh America where legal processes have to be observed. Not only in building infrastructure but in managing public corporations as well.

    Why does it have to be privately owneed? WHy does it have to have public controls? There are many large family owned organizations that are doing very well. Why bring external shareholders in?

    The rest of your post is about public policy. If a state decrees that something is in its strategic interest, it moves forward with it. China's astronomical growth is based on this simple rule. Dubai recognized the potential for tourism and the hub system and ran with it, in much the same way as China had little regard for peasants when it took over land and turned them into sprawling industrial zones. While the observance of legal processes is great and all, every country is entitled to do what it thinks is best for its people (we call it sovereignty). The UAE has followed a tourism and hub airport model (as well as a financial hub and shipping hub model) that has proven to be very successful. By contrast, Germany taxes like it is going out of style, though to be fair to Germany, they've never really aspired to be a tourist destination in the same league as UAE, France, or more recently, Turkey.

    China too builds factories faster than anyone else. Factories that build, among other things, Airbus aircraft and other components for airlines like LH.

    Is it unfair? No. No one is stopping Germany from adopting the same policy. Germany is choosing not to. If I insist on wearing uncomfortable shoes, can I blame you for wearing comfortable shoes and insist that you change them?

    Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
    Debunking myths? Looks more like they're digging a bigger hole for themselves

    The problem with emotive topics such as this one is that there is a whole lot of ideology and mythology associated with it.

    Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
    . And that's exactly what EK is, a government entity. Usually when a government entity puts out something like this it's because they're trying to hide something.

    With all due respect, that's nonsense. EK is responding to claims. If it keeps quiet, you can accuse it of trying to hide something. If it responds you can (and do) accuse it of hiding something. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, eh?


    User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
    Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 18659 times:

    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    They've engaged in a campaign of trying to portray other airlines in a bad light for receiving various funds/bailouts, which according to EK amount to subsidies. Are and are they trying to use that as an excuse for something?!?

    Emirates appears to have engaged in a defensive campaign to take on the throwaway lies that are insinuated or explictly given by certain airlines and their supporters (including those on this forum).

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 7):
    Has it been through raising debt funding? From equity investors?

    Mainly from debt. Equity in 2002 was AED 692.2m (US$188.4m). In 2011 this had risen to AED 801.0m (US$218.1m).

    Page 14 of the document shows that they have raised US$26bn of finance over the last 15 years: operating leases 43%, commercial banks 19%, ExIm banks 12%, bond issuance 9%, ECA 13%, Islamic finance 4%.

    In 2011 for example, Emirates Airline raised US$1bn via a bond with a coupon of 5.125%. Singapore Airlines issued S$300m (US$ 242.6m) of bonds with a coupon of 2.15%.

    Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
    I love it how they compare historical subsidies

    Many of the examples are not that historic.

    Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
    It is a sovereign issue,

    Tax is indeed a sovereign issue. However, the argument many imply on this forum is that Emirates should be unfairly treated in its own country and be charged corporation tax. I do not think imposing tariffs on Emirates by other countries would be seen in a good light, particularly at the World Trade Organization. And why just middle-eastern airlines then ? Why not any airline that operates from a country with lower corporation taxes (from which all industries in that economy benefit) such as say, Singapore, Hong Kong SAR and even the United Kingdom (30%) compared to Australia.

    Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
    Never trust a government entity

    Perhaps some dramatic cynicism there but clearly 31.4m passengers trusted Emirates to transport them in the year ending 31 March 2011.



    Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
    User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 488 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 18493 times:

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 13):
    What I was trying to say is that even though EK may not receive subsidies, it does have business advantages against other carriers. Be that through the tax policies.

    Is it the fault of EK that the tax policies are beneficial? Every country has its own pros and cons: the trick is to make best advantage of that.

    Quoting rogercamel (Reply 13):
    My thoughts too. If the investors are government owned companies they will take a different view in relation to expected returns and approach for risk.

    There are big differences in shareholders and you can not generalize. Some governments which are big shareholders want to maximize profits (Singapore), other just create jobs for their buddies (Malaysia) and even other ones are just concerned about the next election (Canada). I think in Dubai they just want more money for nicer toys...


    User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
    Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 18450 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
    3) EK's fuel costs are pretty much average. Incidentally on this point, I've never understood those who purport that EK receives subsidised oil because even if they did get it in DXB, how do they get free oil in SYD?

    IF they do receive a subsidy, sudsidized in Dubai would be a chunk of the cost, but I did say "IF".


    User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18369 times:

    While any additional competition is always welcomed, I'd like to read someday a comprehensible and truly independent audit about the EK growth.

    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    It was prepared by Emirates. What else did you expect them to say?!?

      

    I assume that nobody here could expect for a fair, search-the-truth report. EK is here as the main involved side, so this a pamphlet that selfishly try to get confusion mixing half-truth when talking about others, with no a single own mention for the very friendly-business environment they find from the government, finance easiness (way more than average in the industry) or lack of work rights/trade unions among others.

    Of course EK is not getting oil for free, it's an absurd myth ...but that piece of paper is as worthless as biased just exactly like to claim they're getting Jet A1 for free or way cheaper.

    Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 17):
    From the perspective of a.net, I think a report like this should be welcomed, because it contributes to the overall shedding of light on the topic from a variety of angles


     

    English is not my first language but I still understand that "variety" word means "The quality or condition of being various or varied" ...so, tell me how is it possible "a variety" coming from a single, very biased source.



    Time flies! Enjoy life!
    User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
    Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18362 times:

    Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 17):
    Is it unfair? No. No one is stopping Germany from adopting the same policy. Germany is choosing not to. If I insist on wearing uncomfortable shoes, can I blame you for wearing comfortable shoes and insist that you change them?

    The difference to the mentioned countries is that, like Canada, Germany is a democracy, ruled by the law and not by decret. It takes 15 to 20 years to build infrastructure projects. That answers your questions, I believe.



    E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
    User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18290 times:

    I'm not entirely sure EK's stats on labour costs are accurate. I compiled a list from various airline reports

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...9/docpepz/AirlineEmployeeCosts.png

    You can see that SQ's costs are more like USD 83k per employee and not USD45k as EK's stats show.


    User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
    Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18274 times:

    Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 17):
    Quoting boeing773W (Reply 3):
    Also, with respect, but a quote "from their auditors PWC" means nothing. Of course their own auditors will confirm EK's story. An auditor's report is effectively an opinion and nothing more. Most aren't worth the paper they're written on frankly (think back to Arthur Andersen's "audits" of Enron and you get the picture).

    If auditing is such a hoax, why does anyone even bother. To be quite honest, this comment makes no sense. PWC is a global brand, not the guy down the road. Their 'opinion' is informed. They have a global presence so their quality holds some water with people. Perhaps because they generally do get it right?

    The Arthur Andersen &* Associates comparison is quite valid - Enron was a shell game but AA & A said it was a solid investment. Standard & Poor's rated Goldman Sachs as a solid investment only months before it collapsed. If you think these organisations are not prostituted to the fees they receive, you're smoking something. Of course PWC would say what EK wanted.

    Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 17):
    Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
    Having a big brother or sugar daddy allows you to take the risks necessary to grow when more prudent
    operators cannot, because of the risk to shareholders.

    Amen, as we have seen in Canada with Air Canada and the government. But that said, most Euro legacy carriers also had sugar daddies during their inception and consolidation stages. Where would they have been witout government support in those critical early years?

    Remember that AC was privatised mid-80s. So there is no sugar daddy. As well, ACPPA and the unfortunate interventions in free and fair labour negotiations by the current government (oddly enough, which supposedly supports laissez-faire marketplace rules) have seriously hobbled AC's ability to function as a truly private entity.

    As well, during its' tenure as a Crown Corporation, AC returned more money to the crown than it lost. Significant profits in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, for example, were more common than not.

    This link to a recent Financial Post article on Air Canada may be of interest:
    http://business.financialpost.com/20...ver-lasting-effects-on-air-canada/



    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    25 RyanairGuru : ElPistolero, as always a fantastic post. While my comments in post 1 probably show which side of this I stand on, I think your absolutely right: AC/L
    26 SKY1 : Dunno, we must to ask him, then .....but still we're talking on this thread about the "document" that has been prepared by EK, on the link provided b
    27 mia : In a war of words, Emirate has put their best foot forward. I feel other companies would have done the same if they had any basis for their accusation
    28 ElPistolero : Alright, then lets put it this way: We live in an age of globalization, yes? Every multinational company is competing on a global scale, yes? People
    29 ElPistolero : There are many threads on Airliners.net that carry the AC/LH/AF claims. In some cases (as on one of the currently active AC threads), some of the pos
    30 SKY1 : Why? just for doing a .... a .....dunno how I could call it ....an advertising feature? They invent a scenario where the assertion can be taken out o
    31 Cubsrule : I think this sentiment is exactly right, but just as . . . . . . it would also be interesting to see some more statistics from EK in this report. The
    32 Revelation : Summary: Mommy, Billy's doing it too!
    33 SKY1 : Yeah but globalization is often used to make excuses and/or blackmail when a company wants to get one's own way. You told it: every country is entitl
    34 PanHAM : I do not propose anything. I just made a statement to show why a country that is ruled by decret has some "advantages" over countries where every sin
    35 Post contains links lightsaber : I found the attachment interesting. However, I can already see here on a.net most already have an opinion. Dubai's economy is heavy in the service sec
    36 L410Turbolet : As was Arthur Andersen part of the Big Six prior to the Enron fisaco. Are you seriously putting a an artifical bubble of shopping malls and skyscrape
    37 PanAm1971 : ALL nations do what they perceive as being in their best interests. While international treaties (including trade agreements) are important tools of g
    38 ElPistolero : Errr, wouldn't that, by its very nature, be a regulated 'free' market? Who said globalization and sovereignty are a zero sum game? China is perhaps t
    39 PanAm1971 : Sovereignty... especially in democratic nations where opinions, perceptions, governments and agendas can change with the circumstances. If you look a
    40 zeke : This is an update to a document they have previously distributed. I have linked a previous version before as a source when people say EK pay nothing
    41 AirlineCritic : Interesting material. Would love to see equally well crafted claims from the likes of LH, AC, and AF. Obviously, EK is not the cleanest example of fre
    42 windshear : I am sorry, but the style of writing is completely unreliable. This is hardly a scientific paper, but rather yet another PR move. Emotional commercial
    43 connies4ever : Please provide unbiased evidence for this. AC's resort to CCAA in 2003 was not "running to the government". It was working within standard rules in t
    44 ghifty : Is this really from EK? The choice of words and phrasing seems to be very unprofessional at times... and the way some of the graphics are arranged doe
    45 Post contains links ElPistolero : http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/facts/industry/emirates.html I've posted this several times now on various threads: "Air Canada came to us dur
    46 solarflyer22 : This is an interesting document but there are a few key gaps that aren't addressed in much detail if you read it closely. 1) Its the Persian Gulf not
    47 Viscount724 : And their UAE-based staff (which must account for 98% of the total) pay no personal income taxes. Also, I doubt the document mentions that unions are
    48 connies4ever : If this page would load, I could read it. Absent that, I can't make a comment. It would seem that ACPA are as active on parliament Hill as AC may be.
    49 mdavies06 : Thanks for the source. I don't have the details either beyond what is said in the news. What the money has been used for is unkown unless you have ac
    50 par13del : Maybe because the current carriers they are competing against did not just appear but were created in a subsidized environment before they went priva
    51 RyanairGuru : I hadn't thought of that, but you might be right. As well as a direct mud sling at the extra-regional operators who have made wild allegations about
    52 Prinair : The solution is simple... All other airlines should just lobby their governments to either limit or cancel Emirates landing rights in their respective
    53 Post contains images cmf : Sure they have advantages. But so do their competitors. It isn't a one way street. A lot of government owned companies are run exactly like private c
    54 Post contains images mayor : As they say, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
    55 PanHAM : No, of course not. LH pays, like any German company that employs, regurlarly and motnhly into the pension fund. Right now it is 19,6% of the income w
    56 gigneil : Are you 5? Auditors are WELL regulated in this country now, and what auditors say are the facts are the only way to check them. Prove it. Thank you f
    57 Post contains links ElPistolero : The link I've given should list the lobbying under Calin Rovinescu (which includes several executives including Duncan Dee and the governmental relat
    58 PanHAM : yes., but neither AI nor China are the topic here. Of course, the recent bail out of AI was a slap into the face of all privately owned carriers in I
    59 Post contains images aeroblogger : Not quite. It was a slap in the face of the taxpayer, certainly, but of the private airlines? Not really. 9W has been pulling the strings in the Mini
    60 PanHAM : Not quite, there are laws, there are agreements on international trade, there is the Chicago convention, the EU countries have to come to majority de
    61 AngMoh : These international agreements are just a tiny aspect of the world economy. Effectively, they are irrelevant. There is no international law forcing U
    62 Post contains images airproxx : EK is even more guilty to my eyes, issuing such a bunch of crap written by their own hands! Looks like a fake trial to me, with some uncheckable figu
    63 SInGAPORE_AIR : Would you be so kind as to provide some examples of erroneous "crap" produced by Emirates ?
    64 connies4ever : It will take a little time to go through all this. a) I have to work for a living, and b) I'm single and dating. It takes time.
    65 airproxx : The actual question is: Can you prove that points of the report are true? Can you prove that the whole report is not biased?
    66 aeroblogger : Of course the report is biased. Every report that has ever been prepared on this topic is biased. Every report that will be prepared on this topic in
    67 airbazar : Sorry but I'm European and that is a sentiment shared by many in Europe, especially in these days of bad economic times. Ask the Greeks, the Italians
    68 Post contains images ElPistolero : If you ever lose a weekend to the flu, like I just did, reading through it all is not the worst way to kill the few neo-citran powered hours of relie
    69 SKY1 : There are differences between politicians from the executive and other State institutions (the judiciary, for example) If we do not trust in any inst
    70 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Guilty to proven innocent eh? I tried to read the Air Canada article, and if the Emirates one is "biased" then the AC one is ... I particularly love
    71 ElPistolero : Imagine! FRA has no control over the landing charges. Shhhh. Don't let facts get in the way of AC's mythology. My facetiousness apart, the only thing
    72 AirIndia : If yuo repeat a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth. And that is what most Canadian a.netters have been subject to. It takes too much time
    73 RyanairGuru : I'm thinking very little, not least because no Australian airlines fly to Canada! Admittedly we can connect in LAX, but personally I would go AC or N
    74 zeke : They pay the appropriate taxes and changes in any country they operate from. They have subsidiaries worldwide, they do pay tax. You are trying to por
    75 ElPistolero : Generally speaking, airfares out of Canada are significantly higher than elsewhere in the developed world (particularly the US). I m pretty sure yiel
    76 Viscount724 : How can you say that Canada isn't a competitive market internationally when you look at the number of airlines operating international services, espe
    77 lewis : Just because AA&A messed up back then (and so has PWC before btw), it does not mean that it is the rule, rather the exception. And no, when one o
    78 Post contains links ElPistolero : Why answer in my own words when the experts have already testified before the Senate. "As I alluded to in my remarks, I think Canada is lagging a bit
    79 Post contains links and images RyanairGuru : If we ignore the presence of the USA for a moment, Canada and Australia are very similar countries. Big and empty, with the population centred in a fe
    80 Viscount724 : STL for one. Well over twice the population of YYC/YEG/YOW and as far as I know, no international service (not counting AC to YYZ and possibly some m
    81 ElPistolero : Really? I would think a meaningless comparison would involve comparing a Torontonian driving to Buffalo for the day to shop, to an Aussie flying to S
    82 Viscount724 : I believe AC only has a revenue-sharing agreement with LH, not LX or OS. They codeshare but I don't think it goes beyond that. Kansas City never had
    83 FlyboyOz : What is premium traffic? Does it means that the airlines have to pay more for that premium traffic?
    84 aeroblogger : Premium traffic is people who pay to fly in Business or First class. Some definitions of premium traffic also include people who buy last-minute (ful
    85 FlyboyOz : ah ok thanks.... it makes sense to me.
    86 ElPistolero : Given that LH owns OS and LX, I would take that with a pinch of salt. I somehow think it might be a bit disingenuous for LH/OS/LX and AC to claim tha
    87 Post contains images RyanairGuru : While the last 20 or so posts haven't been directly on-topic, I think that this report from EK - read in conjunction with other statements - has allo
    88 Sydscott : I wouldn't call it crap, just slightly misleading. See below in relation to QF. The 1992 $1.4 billion debt write off by the Australian Government in
    89 ElPistolero : By the same token, the UAE can argue that EK has repaid the government investment in it by increasing tourism revenue to a tiny country with no parti
    90 Sydscott : I'm not an EK hater, but if you're going to publish a document with only half the story in the they deserve to be picked up on. And in relation to EK
    91 Post contains links and images ElPistolero : Very informative posts. Thanks. I think your post has shed a lot of light on an issue that Canadians tend to associate with EK. Australia's 'restrict
    92 zeke : AFAIK SQ Cargo does have rights to operate the Pacific today. Australia has offered SQ numerous times to support them in flying the Pacific, all they
    93 Viscount724 : Do you have a source for that rationale? I can't believe the issue of QF 5th freedom rights LAX-YVR would be a concern for the Canadian government or
    94 ElPistolero : Interesting, but it still begs the question: Why is AC linking this negotiation to EK? For some reason, I seem to be under the impression that there
    95 Post contains links Sydscott : What that fails to mention is that the European carriers started to sign up Asian Alliance carriers around that time. So instead of having your prese
    96 Post contains links SInGAPORE_AIR : With regards to Emirates' financing, an article here may be of interest to some: Source: Arabian Business Flanagan said Emirates has never had any iss
    97 lightsaber : It is worthy of noting. The once sparsely populated Dubai now appears to have fractionally more people than Abu Dhabi. I would note it was economic g
    98 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Or where would EK be without the government investment in Dubai--the investment that nearly bankrupted the emirate and required a bailout from bigger
    99 cmf : EK was a viable business long before the Dubai boom. Largely relying on connecting passengers. No doubt they benefited from the building boom and all
    100 MaverickM11 : It would be less significant, both in terms of volume and profitability. One of the benefits of a hub is the ability to offer a compelling network to
    101 ElPistolero : Not really sure what you're getting at. EK would have been no where without Dubai investing in Dubai ??? What nation would be anywhere without invest
    102 Post contains links and images lightsaber : The boom helped bring EK above their competitors. I'm certain the press on the man-made islands, indoor ski slope, and tallest building in the world
    103 MaverickM11 : The scale is night and day compared to any other nation/city. Dubai went into massive debt literally building a world in the ocean. Other nations are
    104 ElPistolero : Thats a slightly questionable argument to make. The UAE built a lot more infrastructure than it did shiny toys. Highways, trains, a port, a massive a
    105 cmf : Sure it would be less significant. So what. Hardly unique to Dubai. While I guess it could be grouped with logistics to some extent, regional offices
    106 Post contains links ElPistolero : This post will likely not be of much use to non-Canadians, but it does raise questions about a claim often made by Canadian commentators on threads re
    107 Post contains images cmf : Great find! Certainly question common wisdom.
    108 Viscount724 : Air China is only 75% state-owned, unlike 100% state-owned NZ and EK. Cathay Pacific's largest shareholder, UK-based Swire Pacific, owns about 18% of
    109 MaverickM11 : I mean all local investment, whether it's mundane infrastructure, another mall, airport, or otherwise. What would separate EK from all of it's compet
    110 Post contains images ElPistolero : Interesting. I always assumed it was 100% owned. My mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. I suppose we could just swap Air China for Air India there.
    111 cmf : Ever looked at how LHR came to be? It isn't as resent as Dubai but seems hard to state UK's government didn't provide significant support at the dawn
    112 Post contains images lightsaber : It should be noted that it is a 'unique provision' of the German/Dubai bilateral that allowed the access to 4 cities. Caveat Emptor... Perhaps EK did
    113 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Vilify rightly so. It isn't the 40s any more and the "they did it so we can too" is a terrible support for any argument, especially if most of the wo
    114 Post contains links RyanairGuru : But EK does have a local market! Why is it that countless foreign airlines from BA to UA to CX to SQ to LH to many I've probably never heard of fly t
    115 cmf : I don't agree with how many of the foreign workers are treated. But neither do I agree with how many workers in many other countries are treated. But
    116 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Such as? That's why I said near-slave labor. Google "Dubai" and "slave" and it's clear it's a current problem. Substitute "Britain" and "slave" and t
    117 ElPistolero : As much as I agree with the sentiment, its a non-starter. We've seen environmental agreements flounder on the notion that developing nations should a
    118 Post contains images lightsaber : The curfews have handed away a preferred set of flight times to hubbing competitors. EK/Dubai compensate with hotels, airport malls and bars, and oth
    119 hohd : EK success has made Western Airlines envious and jealous. However one point we have to concede. That DXB was built with workers with low wages and no
    120 RyanairGuru : The only two places I can think of are Singapore and Hong Kong. That isn't coincidence. Back when they were part of the British Empire those cities w
    121 Post contains images cmf : Way too many examples in the developing world. The conditions and camps in many Chinese factories are very similar to UAE. The actual terms for many
    122 Post contains links airceo : I blogged about this today. I find the document lacks focus and for some reason (that I can't put my finger on) it seems to lack the usual polished qu
    123 MaverickM11 : None of those places had a purse filled with oil money; they're poor. Not quite the same and you know it. There's nothing quite like Dubai's spending
    124 Post contains images Tdan : Careful, Mav. Dubai doesn't have purses filled with oil money. What it did have was access to nearly limitless cheap credit in order to build anythin
    125 ElPistolero : Interesting read. I wouldn't even know where to look. Very interesting. I didn't give it much thought the first time around. I can only guess it has
    126 Post contains images lightsaber : Hence why they built something else. The first big investment being the artificial port. A large chunk of Dubai's prior oil money was traded to make
    127 Post contains images RyanairGuru : At this rate they will be like Hong Kong within five years In all serious though, as unfortunate as this is you only need to look at any city in the
    128 Post contains images airceo : I've compiled a list based on syscanner.net at CDG rings in at 99 non-cargo carriers. Well the number attributed to SQ is a % of the total rotations
    129 ElPistolero : Yes, I guess a lot of that information is sold by the sources, rather than available for free. The SQ numbers look very odd indeed. I don't doubt the
    130 ANCsupercub : It is not fair to say that because of Enron, you cannot trust an auditor opinion. First, it is important to note that the majority of Arthur Andersen
    131 Sydscott : While saying the majority were ethical the problem with Arthur Andersen was more systemic than that. There was a perception of bias and lack of prope
    132 Post contains images cmf : So slavery is acceptable if you do not have money? Don't think so. They are extremely similar in your criteria for what proofs something is true. Of
    133 Post contains images MaverickM11 : If there's no money who is going to pay anyone more? Dubai has a huge sovereign wealth fund. Abu Dhabi has the world's largest. Central America? Not
    134 Post contains images cmf : So if you do not have money then slavery is OK. The big issues in UAE has been about abuse. From "just" taking away passports all the way to murder.
    135 MaverickM11 : Is that what I said? Really, is that what I said? Why don't you highlight where I said that. When was the last time BA/AF/LH got any beneficial suppo
    136 ElPistolero : The benefit accrued has nothing to do with the period of time in which it was provided. Whether BA got money 80 years ago or yesterday is irrelevant
    137 MaverickM11 : Sure, but if you're looking at why EK is successful now and BA is not now it's because Dubai is investing in infrastructure now and the UK is looking
    138 cmf : Yes, when you justify it with that they do not have money. Post 116 I.e. you state that a lot of hits means it is real. EK got some 10 MUSD back in t
    139 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Dubai could build the world in the sea, but couldn't pay reasonable wages, not even by a longshot--though since improved. Central America offers its
    140 Post contains images cmf : I'm saying money does not matter, you are never allowed to treat anyone as a slave, never. Mybe the problem is that you use slave to exaggerate and a
    141 lightsaber : Thank you, but what does it mean? Do you have the numbers with their LCC subsidiaries? I believe that is a more meaningful comparison. Yes, Dubai's L
    142 cmf : Again, just copied time tables without much quality check so I expect a few errors but nothing that matters. The numbers for SQ and EK are up one eac
    143 lightsaber : First, thank you for putting in the work. What tool do you use? Do you have a link. Or if its proprietary, I'll accept that as an answer too. I would
    144 Post contains images cmf : Google added flight schedules some time ago. Just search for "flights from DXB" and you get all non-stop flights, I then copy the result to Excel. Cl
    145 Post contains links and images lightsaber : CMF, Welcome to my RU list. I come onto a.net to learn and you sir are contributing. Ahhh. (Slaps forehead with flat palm.) Late edit: Ok, I'm at www.
    146 cmf : I've been thinking about this question all morning. Simple answer is that I'm not confident doing "greatest" predictions about anything. Even less wh
    147 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Dubai has the money and resources to combat terrible working conditions; many other places do not have that luxury. There was no mention of "hits". Y
    148 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Agreed. I've been impressed with the expansion of FZ into Russia and ex-USSR areas. Does EK have the bilateral rights? The big news is Dubai will be
    149 Post contains images MaverickM11 : There sure is, and it's a LH/KL/AF/DL/CA/TK/AA/UA thing too
    150 Post contains images Cubsrule : Your list is erroneous. I can come up with 85 destinations for ORD without even looking at the entire east coast of the US or any of Canada (grouped
    151 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Maybe. Oversight on my part, mea culpa. I had the data for ORD but forgot to put them in the table. Same with MSP and CLE. Oops... I've updated this
    152 MaverickM11 : What is a "wayport"?
    153 Post contains links cmf : As I said before, there is no excuse for the working conditions often found in UAE and many other countries. Nor is there any excuse for multinationa
    154 MaverickM11 : You must be joking. An airport open for decades with a 6000' runway. I'm sure BA and VS are tripping over themselves to get facilities at SEN. Oh you
    155 Post contains links and images lightsaber : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayport "A wayport is a major airport, built on the outskirts of or away from urban locations, having the primary purpose
    156 cmf : The extension of the runway is what made it viable for modern NB. Without it EasyJet could not use it. Not having been viable makes it new commercial
    157 Post contains images MaverickM11 : That pretty much sounds like any hub on earth. DXB has a significant and growing local component. China is still very centralized on SHA/BJS, particu
    158 Post contains links and images cmf : Allocation of available equipment would be the alternative. But I agree with you. I'm sure they exchange notes All of GCC must envy China being able
    159 Post contains links MaverickM11 : None of which are unique. Besides London, where? And you really think an airline whose smallest aircraft is a 332 can get people "the last mile"? No:
    160 Post contains images RyanairGuru : You're taking a too narrow definition of region. Look at Great Britain. EK fly to 6 airports. In comparison SQ fly to 2, SAA to 1, QF to 1, TG to 1,
    161 MaverickM11 : Still that appears to be the only place where EK really covers a region that is remotely 'longhaul'. UA probably has a similar number of destinations
    162 cmf : You missed the definition of model. It is the total that counts. That you can find someone who is somewhat similar for an individual part doesn't mat
    163 MaverickM11 : I'll take all this mumbo jumbo as further confirmation that you have no idea what you're talking about. Very unusual? You do realize that rapid expan
    164 RyanairGuru : I'll nitpick: 5. (LHR, BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA). However, given that 2 of EK's 6 are in London (LHR and LGW) I'll concede that they have broadly similar m
    165 MaverickM11 : 6 with BFS. The two are entirely different markets. India is EK's backyard--it better cover that region considerably if it wants the hub to work; it'
    166 Post contains images RyanairGuru : I couldn't give you a text-book definition but it refers to end-of-line connections to secondary markets which international carriers aren't interest
    167 cmf : It is not mumbo jumbo when you have a basic understanding of business. Rapid expansion create a lot of cost, new equipment, new employees, training,
    168 MaverickM11 : The US market is the most mature and competitive market on the planet by far, and its carriers have some of the highest costs as well--their ability
    169 cmf : I did not say it made airlines fail. I said the costs control support EK in expanding faster. There you go again. Your only argument has been that ev
    170 Post contains links and images lightsaber : More on a Wayport. A Spoke is 70% O&D traffic A "Hub" is 30% to 70% O&D traffic A true Wayport is under 30% O&D traffic (or more than 70%
    171 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Because it's double the distance! You have GOT to be kidding me with this. Why does SQ fly 4x to SYD but only 2x on EK? Why does SQ fly to 5 airports
    172 PanHAM : True is that governments execute the sovereign rights in their countries. But that used to be, or still is called INTERLINING and was / is the way to
    173 cmf : The only kidding going on is your selective picking of data.
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