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WN's Future Plans At STL?  
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

Just curious as to how big WN will grow STL in the future. In the MKE thread I read where they will be at over 100 flights a day this summer, a big jump from the nearly 80 a day they have been at and rather stagant at for a number of years. Glad to see WN taking advantage of AA's cuts to expand. Could we eventually see WN expand down the D concourse? Would be nice to see that renovated like A and C and put to use....perhaps maybe someday some international flights to CUN post FL merger?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

I've said it before in other threads and I will say it here again. I think WN will eventually make it's way down the D concourse at STL an perhaps eventually control it. As WN grows it is getting away from being a point to point airline to one that has "hubs" or transit points, what ever you want to call them. Right now MDW is serving that role for the heartland but there is a finite amount of room at MDW and I think WN has almost hit the cap there. When that happens WN will have to start shifting more of the focus from transit traffic at MDW (I think 43% is the last number I heard there, correct me if I am wrong) to strictly O&D. That's when I think you will really start seeing expansion at STL. I don't really see a way for O&D to grow at STL as I don't see any growth drivers for that region, so I think it will grow based on being a transit point for WN to take strain off of MDW. The funny part of that is that AA originally wanted TW and STL to help take strain off of ORD (hope I'm not giving an inferiority complex to our STL members). I think it also helps that WN is keeping ICT and DSM in the merger. Those two cities in and of themselves don't really mean anything but it shows that WN wants to keep and grow a presence in the heartland and that means expanding flights throughout the Midwest. You are going to need a way to connect ICT to BNA or DSM to RSW. I think STL will fill that role nicely.
Now there is one little hiccup I concede in my theory.... MKE. I can't figure out why WN is still pouring resources in there (no I haven't seen the latest MKE thread yet). I thought originally the point was to win the three way fight with FL and F9 and basically draw traffic from Chicago's northern suburbs. But now WN owns FL and F9 is throwing in the towel. Maybe WN feels it will need two transit points to bracket MDW. Or maybe not having a billion dollar boondoggle of a runway might play to MKE's advantage (yes I know the argument it was needed at that time, but it is driving up the costs at the airport now).


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5203 times:

I would love to see WN put the D concourse to good use, would elinate the ghost town feeling the airport is suffering from now. Also, Ive seen others nix it, but I could see DSM-STL flights. DSM was connected for years with TWA and AA, and was one of the last cities AA kept from STL so I would think there is something there why the kept it for so long. ICT too... I could also see maybe ORF or JAX connected to STL at some point hopefully.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5053 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Thread starter):
Just curious as to how big WN will grow STL in the future.

Probably not a lot bigger than they are now (combined with AirTran of course). I'd even expect some modest cuts in 2014 when Wright expires and STL is no longer needed as a stopover between DAL and the East Coast.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3650 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

Something to keep in mind is that with WN's proficiency at quick turnarounds, WN would have to add a significant number of flights to necessitate acquiring gates down the D concourse.

I really don't see that happening. STL isn't going to gain 30-40 WN flights over night. As big as WN is at STL right now, I don't think they even crack the top 15 WN stations.



PHX based
User currently offlinestl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 4):
I really don't see that happening. STL isn't going to gain 30-40 WN flights over night. As big as WN is at STL right now, I don't think they even crack the top 15 WN stations.

STL is actually the 12th busiest station, right behind San Diego.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

looks like if this fact sheet held up, STL would be about the size of Oakland at 108 flights and would be in the top 10. Not too shabby. I bet Terminal 2 at STL is constantly hopping.

http://www.southwest.com/html/about-...fact-sheet-top-airports-popup.html

Quoting 777STL (Reply 4):
Something to keep in mind is that with WN's proficiency at quick turnarounds, WN would have to add a significant number of flights to necessitate acquiring gates down the D concourse.

perhaps they could remove the number of gates they have on D and space them out a little more to allow more spacious boarding areas and more stores/restaurant space. How many gates did D have before AA shut it down and consolidated to C?


User currently offlineDallas From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Probably not a lot bigger than they are now (combined with AirTran of course). I'd even expect some modest cuts in 2014 when Wright expires and STL is no longer needed as a stopover between DAL and the East Coast.

I'm also very interested to see what happens in 2014. I think STL (and MCI a little) service might lose some service with Dallas being able to fly nonstop to Chicago and the east coast. A lot of it will depend on what nonstop cities and routes are used, but I would imagine service to suffer a little. Until 2014, I'd expect service to moderately increase.


User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

23 July 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations

1x ABQ, 4x ATL, 5x BWI, 1x BHM, 3x BOS, 10x MDW, 2x CMH, 9x DAL, 4x DEN, 2x DTW, 1x FLL, 1x RSW, 4x HOU, 5x MCI, 4x LAS, 2x LIT, 2x LAX, 2x SDF, 2x MKE, 3x MSP, 2x BNA, 1x MSY, 2x EWR, 2x OKC, 3x OMA, 3x MCO, 1x ECP, 2x PHL, 3x PHX, 1x RDU, 1x SAN, 1x SEA, 2x TPA, 2x TUL
______________________

13 August 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations

1x ABQ, 3x ATL, 5x BWI, 1x BHM, 2x BOS, 10x MDW, 2x CMH, 9x DAL, 4x DEN, 2x DTW, 1x FLL, 1x RSW, 4x HOU, 5x MCI, 4x LAS, 2x LIT, 2x LAX, 2x SDF, 2x MKE, 3x MSP, 2x BNA, 1x MSY, 2x LGA, 2x EWR, 2x OKC, 3x OMA, 3x MCO, 2x PHL, 3x PHX, 1x RDU, 2x SAT, 1x SEA, 2x TPA, 2x TUL
______________________

The difference between the two schedules, essentially, is that ECP and SAN are both operating at 1x daily on 23 July, plus at that time ATL is 4x and BOS is 3x on weekdays.

By 13 August, 2x daily to each of LGA and SAT have come online, but the flights to ECP and SAN disappear and ATL and BOS each lose a frequency.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

23 July 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations


ahh I see...thanks for the clarification...still not too shabby of a schedule though...nice to see ECP even as a seasonal destination...

Quoting Dallas (Reply 7):

I'm also very interested to see what happens in 2014. I think STL (and MCI a little) service might lose some service with Dallas being able to fly nonstop to Chicago and the east coast. A lot of it will depend on what nonstop cities and routes are used, but I would imagine service to suffer a little. Until 2014, I'd expect service to moderately increase.

Hopefully it wont, I'd still like to see STL build up a little more....I think it releases a little of the pressure off of MDW more than anything.


User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

Most likely the build up in STL will be FALL 2012. True STL LGA/SAT start in AUG 2012, no firm date on STL ATL. Other increase in flights out of STL will be increases to current destinations.

User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 1):
Now there is one little hiccup I concede in my theory.... MKE. I can't figure out why WN is still pouring resources in there (no I haven't seen the latest MKE thread yet). I thought originally the point was to win the three way fight with FL and F9 and basically draw traffic from Chicago's northern suburbs. But now WN owns FL and F9 is throwing in the towel. Maybe WN feels it will need two transit points to bracket MDW.

MKE would like to be the 3rd Chicago area airport, rather than Gary, Rockford, or Peotone. By the same token, I've known people who say they would love to fly WN, but living in the northern suburbs gave them no incentive. Why drive past ORD to get to MDW, even with higher fares? This was before WN started flying into MKE.

By trying to be the large carrier at MKE that the original Midwest Airlines was, WN then can continue to be the alternative to UA and AA at ORD, whether you live or work in the Loop, the west suburbs, or the south suburbs (MDW) or live or work in the north suburbs (MKE).


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 9):


Hopefully it wont, I'd still like to see STL build up a little more....I think it releases a little of the pressure off of MDW more than anything.

I'm sure when Love is set free in 2014 STL will lose some of it's purpose in funneling people down to DAL. There are other opportunities to replace some of that flying elsewhere.

I think STL-Mexico/Caribbean down the road is probable. Also markets like PDX, OAK, PVD, BDL, ORF, AUS etc...might get a flight to STL in the future as MDW is rescheduled to access some of the new FL markets. Might be a wash in terms of flight totals but they still might break the 100 flight a day threshold in a few years.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Southwest is def doing work in hopes to add more flights to STL.

I am looking forward to seeing how much WN can increase in STL, yet at same time, I do wonder what will happen for when 2014 /Wright occures.

At the moment WN cannot do STL-CUN as the route authority is tied up, AA, F9 and U5 all have it, my only question is does DOT allow F9 to hold 2 or does the closing down of U5 open up the 3rd one?

It's amazing how busy it gets during peak time. I flew out Sat afternoon and we got shut down due to the lightning strikes, no one could access the gates. So when the ramp opened up we had 5 WN birds on the ground, it looked like a "hub" in the sense of movement! Was great to see!

The addition of SAT and LGA is promising as well as ECP I am glad to see not just expansion to current cities but expansion to new cities/airports!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 8):

Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

STL is scheduled to go to 99 FLIGHTS in SEPT/OCT schedule LOAD. That is about as close to 100 as you can get. Forecasted increased flights is forcased to be 108 out of STL.

Adding jetway to E24 and leasing E29 from the city. E2 is no longer usable.


User currently offlineLambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 2):
I would love to see WN put the D concourse to good use, would elinate the ghost town feeling the airport is suffering from now. Also, Ive seen others nix it, but I could see DSM-STL flights. DSM was connected for years with TWA and AA, and was one of the last cities AA kept from STL so I would think there is something there why the kept it for so long. ICT too... I could also see maybe ORF or JAX connected to STL at some point hopefully.

I find it unlikely that they will need the D concourse anytime soon, unfortunately. On the other hand, I expect it to remain an important station in the WN network even after the Wright Amendment expires. Much like Nashville is used as a connecting point for southeastern destinations (Greenville, Nofolk, Panama City, etc.), St. Louis is used as a heartland connecting point of sorts and I expect both DSM and ICT to be added at some point in the future.

Other hopeful routes are Austin and Portland, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3042 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 13):
At the moment WN cannot do STL-CUN as the route authority is tied up, AA, F9 and U5 all have it, my only question is does DOT allow F9 to hold 2 or does the closing down of U5 open up the 3rd one?

Southwest/Airtran can do STL-CUN as long as they apply for the authority. With U5's closing they gave up the right to hold the 3rd authority. Their authority is up for grabs and F9 is not allowed to hold two authorities.

Quoting LV (Reply 1):
Right now MDW is serving that role for the heartland but there is a finite amount of room at MDW and I think WN has almost hit the cap there.

I don't think WN has hit the cap at MDW just yet. They got a bit more of breathing room with the three additional gates that came from FL. Looking at how many flights they have at LAS with the number gates they can fit a bit more at MDW.


User currently offlineExpressJet_ERJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Does anyone know what cities SWA used to serve out of STL that they no longer do? IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.


ETOPS...Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23027 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 16):
I don't think WN has hit the cap at MDW just yet. They got a bit more of breathing room with the three additional gates that came from FL. Looking at how many flights they have at LAS with the number gates they can fit a bit more at MDW.

Gates are not the problem at MDW. It's ability to handle bags, which I understand is both a staffing and an infrastructure issue. Recall that for a while, WN sorted connecting bags manually under a tent between Concourse A and the A4 extension.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 17):
IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.

The problem with IND is the tiny local market. It's such an easy drive.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 17):
Does anyone know what cities SWA used to serve out of STL that they no longer do? IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.

IND was the only one to my knowledge...

FLL, LAX, MSY all dropped and returned.

We had a Saturday Only STL-PBI not sure how long that lasted, STL-CLE is now missing (I found that odd)

So missing routes STL no longer sees...Daily or Otherwise

STL-PBI
STL-CLE
STL-IND

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

STL-SLC no longer runs (first shows up in 1994, not sure about when it was cut)

User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 20):
STL-SLC no longer runs (first shows up in 1994, not sure about when it was cut)

That's what I was thinking of! Yes you're correct SLC too was dropped, I think around 2008 or 2009. I flew this in 2007.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 19):
STL-PBI
STL-CLE
STL-IND
STL-SLC



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineFutureuscapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 21):
That's what I was thinking of! Yes you're correct SLC too was dropped, I think around 2008 or 2009. I flew this in 2007.

STL-SLC was dropped in October 2009.


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