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Boeing To Study Direct 757 Long-haul Replacement  
User currently offlineBthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 522 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 28974 times:

Flight Global reports that Boeing have now confirmed they are specifcally studying a direct replacement for the 757 in the long-haul segment.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...haul-757-replacement-study-371163/

The drive behind it is clearly the popular transatlantic segment that carriers say the 739ER and A321neo can't match - US Airways is specifically mentioned.

The options that are available seem to be a redefinition or addition to the MAX (although it hasn't been fully defined yet anyway) or a re-entry of a 787-3 into the product line. I personally see the MAX option a bit of a stretch and think a redefined 787-3 with less capactiy and greater range might be favourable?

We could also see an Airbus response, expecially with US being a valuable Airbus customer, maybe an improved or -ER version of the A321neo (again a bit of stretch). Just gonna throw it out there - what about a new A330 model?

197 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3455 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 29003 times:

What about an Airbus A325? to fit in with this market the airlines would be chasing.


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User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 28932 times:

IMO, the A330/787 variant path is going to be a difficult one. The 757 needs to be replaced from the 737/A320 lines, to keep the weight to an absolute minimum.

If the 787 were to be used as a platform it would need to be stripped right back, perhaps integrating some of the design elements that come out of the -10 as a regional aircraft. It would still be too heavy though...

We'll see what happens. It's a pretty small market to go through a big development process for -- the A321/739ER do a pretty good job of replacing the 757 in most areas, especially in the NEO/MAX generation.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 28840 times:

Shouldn't be an issue with the technology available. If it could be done in the 1980s, it can be done now. Obviously we are looking at a narrowbody most likely, regardless of the A.net hate for narrowbodies - the kinds of long, thin routes currently flown by the 757 in many cases could not support a widebody.

The bigger question is would Boeing want to start a new line for this plane, taking away from something that is already in the works? Or would they expand without pushing something out that is already running?


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 28834 times:

Nor Boeing or Airbus will pull a clean sheet to design a 757 replacement. The niche market doesn't justify it.

The articles hints at a 737MAX evolution. Though I don't know how much more range and payload can be stretched out of it.
Maybe a new wing/landing gear/engine combination, but the investment still seems heavy for such a small market. The gap between the 739/A321 and the 787/A330 isn't that wide.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 28825 times:
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Personally I would like to see airbus stick the A321 wing on the A320 and max out the weights with the new GTFs hung under the wings, Boeing shoul do the same with the 73G/738. I dont think the 757 has done so well on its TATL adventures bucause of how big it was but how small it was, a smaller aircraft that could fly the route with lower CASM would reduce risk significantly.

Fred


User currently offlinemurchmo From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 28724 times:

Boeing obviously wanted to do a clean sheet 737 replacement. What if this was the beginning of that? First offer the 757 capacity to replace that market then turn this hypothetical narrowbody into a smaller more direct brand new 737 replacement. Using all new tech and such learned from the 787. It's one of the only ways they could justify a whole new line and would also put them ahead of Airbus.


to strive to seek to find and not to yield
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 28716 times:

The B757 is a fine piece of engineering even compared to the 737 NGs. Perhaps the MAX can be engineered to match and exceed the 57, I guess one has to hope for that.

I probably can't praise the 757 enough, it's that fine. Boeing would do well with making a genuine replacement for it.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 28527 times:
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Isn't the MAX designed to be the last stage iteration of the 737 line before the introduction of Y3 with launch of the 737 replacement to be 2020 or so... just confused as to why would you launch a new type based on old tech... aka the 737.

If the MAX was to be developed further and as it has the same cross section at the 757, would/could it be possible they stick the 757 gear under it, allowing the stretch, the engine clearance for a GTF? Use of composites... creating a hybrid.



146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28314 times:

Quoting btblue (Reply 8):
If the MAX was to be developed further and as it has the same cross section at the 757, would/could it be possible they stick the 757 gear under it, allowing the stretch, the engine clearance for a GTF? Use of composites... creating a hybrid.

Oh they could definitely do this, it's more whether the numbers add up when you consider the small number of transatlantic 757s in service. It's the same reason why there's no proper replacement for the short to medium haul widebodies.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28262 times:

Quoting Bthebest (Thread starter):
Flight Global reports that Boeing have now confirmed they are specifcally studying a direct replacement for the 757 in the long-haul segment.

Boeing confirmed going back into the 2000s that they had VP level staffing for the NSA (737 replacement). They even named the executives in charge. My point is not to read too much into this.

Quoting Bthebest (Thread starter):
We could also see an Airbus response, expecially with US being a valuable Airbus customer, maybe an improved or -ER version of the A321neo (again a bit of stretch).

Again, don't read too much into it - US was just used as an example of a customer who would be interested. The fact that a crucial Boeing customer wasn't named suggests to me that this just isn't that big a deal. Note for contrast that we do have reports of the largest 777 customer in the world being quite excited about the 777X program, and at least four other customers already expressing interest.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 5):
Personally I would like to see airbus stick the A321 wing on the A320 and max out the weights with the new GTFs hung under the wings,

Interesting. Airbus claims 3000 nm range for current A32x, an additional 500 nm for NEO+sharklets, and US still isn't happy.

I'm supposing they want solid 4000 nm all-winds range, so would sticking A321 wings on an A320 get it to that point?

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 5):
Boeing shoul do the same with the 73G/738.

I don't think you can get the range out of it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8656 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28229 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 4):
Nor Boeing or Airbus will pull a clean sheet to design a 757 replacement. The niche market doesn't justify it.

It's on heck of a niche market when you consider not only TATL routes but routes between North and South America as a well as between Europe and Africa. Not to mention that a plane like this would carry more pax than today's A321/739, with more cargo uplift, and likely at a much lower cost than even the NEO and MAX, on a lot of transcon routes.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28192 times:

Re-tool for the 757.
Put a raked wingtip on it, 777/787 style cockpit, sky interior, replace some components with carbon composites,strap a new engine to the wings and job's a good-un.

Of course, this is about as likely as any other possibility, ie: Low.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinemurchmo From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28117 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):

If their were a niche market. It would be this one.

Quoting garpd (Reply 12):

The production lines and all involved are long gone and shutdown. You'd basically have to start over from what I understand.


The engineers at Boeing are talkin about the same things we are and then some. We can be sure of that.



to strive to seek to find and not to yield
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28074 times:
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How about just re-opening the 757 assembly line again, wouldn't that be easier than all this "replacement" talk??? (major companies always trying to re-invent the wheel)

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 28029 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 12):
Re-tool for the 757.
Quoting g500 (Reply 14):
How about just re-opening the 757 assembly line again, wouldn't that be easier than all this "replacement" talk??? (major companies always trying to re-invent the wheel)

The tools are gone, the final assembly line is gone, the supply chain is gone. Forget about it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27860 times:

A stretched 737-900Max with a new wing, finally an aircraft for people that missed out on the 707 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6788 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27858 times:

737-10 using 739 body with 128' wingspan and Leap-X engine.. Sky interior.. Made in Charleston on the 787 line?

Just a thought...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27807 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 5):
Personally I would like to see airbus stick the A321 wing on the A320 and max out the weights with the new GTFs hung under the wings, Boeing shoul do the same with the 73G/738. I dont think the 757 has done so well on its TATL adventures bucause of how big it was but how small it was, a smaller aircraft that could fly the route with lower CASM would reduce risk significantly.

How differant are the A321 wings from the standard A320 ones - I thought that all 4 familt members had the same wings?


User currently offlineN757ST From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27661 times:

All the a320 series have the same wing.

User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27583 times:

Quoting N757ST (Reply 19):
All the a320 series have the same wing.

The flap assembly is different on the 321 but I suppose the dimensions are the same.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27454 times:

Goes to show you how out of touch a manufacturer can be with customers.

Why was it ever cancelled? Didn't anyone at Boeing see that airlines were finding new life for these aircraft to go long haul?

When it was cancelled, didn't they think to replace it with something instead of forcing people to make a 737/320 decision?

They had a unique product (that although old) was still unmatched by anything out there. Bad business decision and I am glad they are thinking about reversing course.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27359 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
They had a unique product (that although old) was still unmatched by anything out there. Bad business decision and I am glad they are thinking about reversing course.

It was the right decision at the time, also a sad one. It will be interesting what Boeing will do, a lighter 787 or a stretched 737Max, I believe the last one, maybe with a double boogie landing gear, a 707 with leapx twin engines so to speak  



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 27313 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Again, don't read too much into it - US was just used as an example of a customer who would be interested.

I think it's a bit more than 'interested'. The article mentions that US complained outright that the A321neo wouldn't cut it, and based on the fact that they currently use 757s for that mission, its very relevant. With a possible US/AA merger, there could be an even bigger customer there.

On a more general note, I think a 757 replacement could have more of an application than just those mentioned so far. Small long-haul international start-ups, such as those in eastern Europe, South America and the Indian Sub-continent might find it appealing.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8656 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 27197 times:

Quoting murchmo (Reply 13):
If their were a niche market. It would be this one.

And a much greater one and likely more profitable than the A380/748 will ever be.


25 bevisisback : Yes...but the designs are still there. They would have to start a new assembly line for a new model anyway (unless they went down the MAX route) so y
26 Post contains links columba : Minus the T-Tail, add compsite wings with raked wingtips and add LeapX Engine, voilà: http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=18968&filename=ph
27 Blueman87 : just reopen the 757 line solves half the problams
28 Gulfstream650 : Wouldn't the 787-8 do the same job?
29 tan flyr : IIRC, as Boeing was preparing to biuld the last 753's for CO & NW they inquired with every major 757 operator about any late orders or either typ
30 Post contains images Stitch : It was the customers who lacked vision, not Boeing. Airlines just stopped buying the plane after January 2001. Boeing secured 31 orders that month (N
31 Revelation : It was cancelled in 2004 since it had ZERO ORDERS even after Boeing offered sweetheart deals to FedEx and others to keep the line open. Good business
32 CargoIT : The 767 is really more prevalent on many of the routes mentioned. With 67 nearing EOL it seems like there should be a market for an aircraft to fit b
33 Stitch : Maybe the 2+3+2 narrowbody design Boeing patented.
34 par13del : If that were the case the 757 line might still be open, let's remember, that to some degree, Airbus killed the 757 market by producing an a/c - A321-
35 traindoc : Remember, Boeing studied an all new 737 replacement and then at the last minute came out with the 737MAX instead. Thus, I would not put too much into
36 bestwestern : Airlines just stopped buying the plane after January 2001. Boeing secured 31 orders that month (NW's 757-300 order being half of it) and then only 6 m
37 captainstefan : What am I missing here? Doesn't having two aisles classify the aircraft as a widebody?
38 AngMoh : The current 757 works because they have no longer any major depreciation. A brand new 757 with the deprecation of a new plane and the economics of a 1
39 Hmelawyer : I think that the fact that they are in study mode will make the timing versus other programs work out fine, as I do not think this project would get
40 g500 : well yeah, except for the price tag....
41 AY-MD11 : This could be good chance for Embraer or Bombardier to make larger plane for this market.
42 bellancacf : Does it look like it is going to turn out that the 787 production process will be fast, cheap, easy to modify ... add other good things? Would Boeing
43 Stitch : That would be a huge leap for them. And the market is not exactly embracing their small leaps (E-195X | CSeries).
44 kanban : Boeing just applied for a new series of patents related to the Sonic Cruiser... (Flightblogger),,, now throw that into the 'it's got to be a bigger 73
45 airbazar : It covers 90% of EXISTING routes because many potential routes can't be operated even with a 757. Airlines "abuse" a 767 for those routes. The 757 wa
46 Roseflyer : Airlines were finding a new life for airplanes that were being displaced by more efficient airplanes. Airlines were the ones that decided they wanted
47 mogandoCI : What about a "787-8 Combi" with 752 pax floor space plus cargo space at the rear 1/3rd of the main floor ? Or did some EU regulation kill any potentia
48 iFlyLOTs : I disagree. The 788/A330/A358 will cover the 763/764 just fine. But I do however agree that the 762 and the 757 are not being replaced by anything wh
49 GCT64 : I recall, however, when I read the article (or a linked article) that it also said that Airbus did not agree with US's assessment of the NEO range ca
50 Post contains images kgaiflyer : What about the Tupolev 204/214/234 series. Would the Tupolev Design Bureau be willing to license its tooling to Boeing?
51 Post contains images iFlyLOTs : What reason would there be for them to do so? Are you suggesting a Tupolev/Boeing Cooperation on a plane?
52 JHCRJ700 : I think it's kinda funny that FedEx is picking up converted 75's now.
53 BMI727 : They'll study it and come up with the same conclusion everyone else does: it's a relatively small market and does not justify the compromises needed
54 Stitch : It was the FAA, actually, that effectively ended new-build combis via regulations that came into play after the loss of SA 295.
55 SwissVA : I tend to agree with this. Something I am seeing in the gulf region right now; One example outside the transatlantic ops is Gulf Air, they are seriou
56 PPVRA : What if. . . Put the 767-200ER on a diet, give it new engines. Add winglets - a whole new wing sounds excessive. It's still in production, unlike the
57 huxrules : Time to dust off the sonic cruiser plans.
58 airbazar : The 764 maybe. The reason you still have plenty of 763ER's flying around (the 767 is still the king of the TATL market), is because there is no viabl
59 jmc1975 : Boeing has ultimately dug its own grave for the long-term. The idea of a 737MAX and a stubby 787 is a complete joke! It's just evidence that the organ
60 wjcandee : Only b/c of the aerodynamics and resulting fuel burn of the wider fuse. The 762 and 752 carry essentially the same pax load, remember. If fuel burn c
61 Post contains images glideslope : Agreed, and it will be built in Charleston.
62 Roseflyer : I agree that long term business plans are about earning profits and might not always make sense, but that statement comes across as an insult. As som
63 LHCVG : That's what I'm wondering. It seems like it would be a relatively massive investment for a niche product.
64 kgaiflyer : Indeed I am. They have a frame design and we have the sales mechanism.
65 odwyerpw : I had not thought about that. Then, when you develop the 737 replacement...you derate engines, single bogey landing gear, change the wing and wingroo
66 LHCVG : That's a very good point - perhaps Boeing already has the market research telling them that a clean-sheet design would only cannibalize sales they co
67 iFlyLOTs : So who builds it? I agree that it probably is a great aircraft for the job, but something that has been a major problem for the Russians is a lack of
68 Post contains images jmc1975 : Plenty is a relative term. This was actually explained to me by a retired Boeing engineer who said that we are entering a generation where people tha
69 PPVRA : I guess they might as well do that with the 787, like the OP's article mentions. . .
70 JoeCanuck : How about an Al-Li 762 with the GenX2B engines?
71 iahmark : Well FWIW this should be the test bed for the real “new” 737- a.k.a. the B797 What they need to do is offer the 737MAX or preferably its replaceme
72 olddominion727 : What about a 757NG? Make it the same body size as the 753, bigger engines, and a few less seats?
73 Post contains links Stitch : Already done - http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...sonic-cruiser-returns-quietly.html I was at Boeing during the initial design studies of the 7E7
74 Bthebest : Could this be an opportunity for them then? Start work on an A330 replacement where the bottom range covers the 757/762 with the top end starting to
75 kgaiflyer : I can think of state governments who would be willing to subsidize a production line if the tooling could be brought here. For their part, Tupolev co
76 ckfred : Boeing was looking to a completely new narrowbody in the 2006-2008 time frame that would probably have run in size from the 737-700 to the 757-200, wi
77 Post contains images rampart : I have to wonder about the big picture with multiple examples over the last, 40, no, 50 years. Airlines urge growing prototypes upward, yet fall back
78 Post contains images Stitch : If Boeing knew they could sell 1000 757 replacements at 10% margins, they'd do it. The trick is, of those 1000 757s that Boeing sold, a significant n
79 rampart : ...or if a better-suited airplane is offered instead, airlines might go for or renogiate orders for it. I still think this is a continuation of a 737
80 Blueman87 : build them with the 767 line like 767 then 757 then 767 in order like that
81 Post contains images 817Dreamliiner : I think a Stretched 737MAX10 and A321neo (call it the A322 maybe?) with higher fuel capacity with longer wings should do it and also for the fun of it
82 Post contains images lightsaber : The 757 needs to be replaced. It is too heavy versus the up and coming competitors. It also needs part commonality to keep maintenance expenses in lin
83 kanban : because of a different body diameter, they could not be assembled on 767 tools, The 757 manufacturing has passed into history and nothing will bring
84 PPVRA : Even a shortened 787 would change it substantially, no? Twin aisles, cargo, bit more range than just a 757MAX. And without the cost/risk of building
85 eaa3 : Boeing spent 6-7 billion dollars on the B747-8. They definitely should have spent that money on a B737 and B757 replacement in one aircraft. Then Boe
86 ebj1248650 : The demand for the airplane declined and orders dried up. Now several years later there's a new demand. Boeing could not have seen that all those yea
87 TWA772LR : How about something in the area of a 762, or a 762 with GEnx engines or updated engines. A plane with 5000nm range that carries 180-210 pax is somethi
88 Post contains images dfwrevolution : It's relatively easy to find used 757s. No one is really rushing to snatch them up. Why "definitely?" Boeing studied a range of new small aircraft op
89 bestwestern : I wonder if this demand only really exists on airliners.net?
90 Post contains images Stitch : And driven by nostalgia as opposed to suitability to task.
91 TWA772LR : I'm 19 and I couldn't agree more. The saying "they don't build them like they used to" rely does apply here. These "younger" engineers don't know how
92 bestwestern : After the 787/A380 launch disaster both Boeing and Airbus are scared of screwing up their cashcow. For Airbus, the A380 was a new market segment, and
93 pliersinsight : With a limited market and a few used 75s around, why not a factory or aftermarket reconditioning program such as Nextant did with the Beechjet 400A t
94 Post contains images planemaker : What do you think this is... Doesn't look much different than a 737 or A320 but fact is that the above is Northrop Grumman's "SELECT," a design for N
95 TWA772LR : I don't mean tube and wing, its been the staple of aviation for 100+ years. And that's only a concept for now, so a lot could change between now and
96 Viscount724 : Boeing also needed the factory space to increase 737 production. In the over 4 years between the last significant 757 order (from NW for 16 aircraft
97 Delta777Jet : How about a B-757-8NG - Old design (just a bit streched (something between -200 and -300). - Lighter material ( which are now available which wasn't a
98 PPVRA : Does the 787 not count? Build from the ground up, with different materials among many other advances. And who says that major advances can't be incor
99 bestwestern : Guys, there are plenty of fresh 757s out there to ensure 15 years more flying of the 757 on routes that the 321neo and 739max can't reach. By 2020 thi
100 txjim : I don't know how Boeing handles product line shutdowns but in mine, we would have the following problems: - All system labs, integration labs, etc...
101 bestwestern : Numbers for illustration purposes only. Let's say $500m to restart production. We then have to add in the opportunity cost of slowing the 737 fleet to
102 kanban : It would move it into a range of limited profitability for both the manufacturer and the airline. Wrong.. they never converted the last 757 line to 7
103 Roseflyer : Plenty = 24,000!!! There are 24,000 Engineers and Engineering Techs in Washington. I can agree a lot of that happened on the 787, but the 747-8 was d
104 Post contains links Bananaboy : I wonder if it still is? According to this excellent analysis by BrusselsSouth, it was "king" only by a very small number as of the winter just gone.
105 Max Q : I maintain that Boeing made a big mistake in shutting down the 757 production line. Certainly, there was a temporary lull in orders but they should ha
106 LAXDESI : How would A320 NEO with 3,900nm range(when fully mature) compare to B752 with 3,900nm range? Using SeatGuru and applying the US seat pitch of Atlantic
107 boilerla : Except neither Boeing nor Airbus are claiming true 3900nm, 752 TATL range. Both have claimed that they can replace the 752 on "most missions", but th
108 planemaker : NASA has funded the MIT/Pratt N 3 team an additional $4.6 million to carry out a Phase 2 study because the conventional materials and fabrication ver
109 Max Q : Incorrect, a new version with improved economics and range would sell very well, besides many of the current 757's are getting long in the tooth and
110 sweair : One option is to start the NSA with a larger 757 like model, working out all problems before selling the NSA as a 737 replacement, no one is waiting f
111 bestwestern : Profitable long thin routes that can't be operated by a neomax and are too small for a 787 is a tiny market. I for one can't see how Boeing can make m
112 747400sp : Such an airliner, would perfect for ZB.
113 planemaker : Incorrect, one only has to look at the number of TATL routes flown and look at the number of 757s in service.
114 Bthebest : and LS, BY, MT, DE. I would say there's quite a market in Europe and Central Asia and as mentioned the Middle East. Do a variant with some 762/3 legs
115 btblue : How about a version that can take a fair size amount of cargo in the hold, loading system using cans to speed up the process... eat into the bottom e
116 Daysleeper : As I’ve just posted over in the UA order thread, the A321 NEO has had a recent ~200nm range bump making it capable of 3750nm fully loaded. It is per
117 bestwestern : You can't just look at the 752 trans Atlantic missions, and hey presto - that's the number of new boeings needed. Taking a chance of say ATL SNN using
118 Revelation : Yes, me too. UPS ordered a bunch of factory built 757PFs. FedEx never bit, but is now picking through the industry cast-offs to find what it needs, a
119 Post contains images scbriml : 1 - this is your opinion 2 - define "sell very well", give us a number 3 - many 757s have been and are being replaced by A320s and 737s. I can see Bo
120 airbazar : Replace "757" with any other model and your statement still applies. So why bother coming up with new models? It's a good thing manufacturers don't t
121 Revelation : Agreed that there won't be an all-new aircraft, and will take it a step further and say MAX won't ever equal NEO in the longer range missions, for re
122 bestwestern : There are markets like EWR NTE for example, but they will be flown by the 752 thats currently operating EWR SNN, which by 2020 will be operated by a 7
123 KC135TopBoom : Correct, all of the A-32X series uses the same wing, the only real difference is the flap/slat system, and even that is minor. The B-757 was cancelle
124 txjim : Maintaining a production line is not a simple matter of waiting for orders. I mentioned labs and obsolescense above, there's also continuous drawing
125 Roseflyer : I know others have already picked apart your statement, but if you add up all the 757s in ETOPS configuration, it is about 200 airplanes (most UA, AA
126 bellancacf : Well, is Boeing ever going to do a carbon fiber narrow body or aren't they?
127 dfwrevolution : Boeing's pace of all-new aircraft has been highly consistent for the last 30 years: 777 EIS to 787 Launch: 8.8 years 767 EIS to 777 Launch: 8.1 years
128 planemaker : First, no it doesn't. Second, your post does not pertain to anything I have posted.
129 Post contains images scbriml : We won't know for a very long time. Some of us may be past caring by the time it happens.
130 bellancacf : But narrowbodies are not necessarily short haul (e.g., 757), even if what you say is true. Where do you suppose the break-even point is between short
131 JoeCanuck : The GenX 2b on the 748 has a max thrust only 2000 lbs higher than the 762er. The 747 and 767 have a long history of sharing engines from the same fam
132 kiwiandrew : I don't think that a 4 year period with a total of only 14 orders could fairly be described as a temporary lull in orders.
133 Post contains links lightsaber : Far higher opportunity cost. The 757 line is now the P-8 ITAR line. Shutting down that line would have huge penalties. An ITAR line has very restrict
134 Roseflyer : The 757 final assembly production line is now the second 737 production line. The third 737 production line which is the P-8 line was for 757 wing pr
135 drerx7 : Then you miss the point. They need an aircraft that does not compete with the NEO/MAX. Neither of those birds is adequate for the niche the 757 fills
136 airbazar : No, I'm hanging my hat on 1700+ 757/767's still in service today because there is no viable replacement for it and although some will eventually be r
137 Post contains images rampart : I think what people are missing is that the 737Max (or more likely, its successor) can be in flux. At its upper end, it could stand to lose 10% of it
138 Roseflyer : When the 757 was developed, the only other airplane that was competing against it in the Boeing lineup was half the size 128,000lbs MTOW 737-200 vs 2
139 crucianpilot : My problem with the 737 is payload. They took an a/c and stretched the heck out of it. In doing so, they opened up a variety of issues. Although fuel
140 Max Q : Same old arguments. Point is you create your own market Just because there are, for arguments sake 200 757's operating oceanic routes today does not m
141 Stitch : Much of which should be eliminated with the greater range of the 737-8 and 737-9. The only carriers still operating sizable 757 fleets are the US maj
142 JoeCanuck : That's a whole lot of ifs to throw a ton of resources and a few billion dollars at. If Boeing does anything in thee near future, it will be a derivati
143 scbriml : Of those 1,050 757s built, how many are flying those routes that occupy the top-right 10% of the 757s payload-range envelope? IMHO certainly not enou
144 Post contains images lightsaber : Ouch. Do they at least serve Beer in a can? Interesting. I hadn't realized the 757 occupied so much real estate. Thank you. I think if you realize wh
145 planemaker : I don't think your post will make any difference... unfortunately. Those that go on and on about the viability continued 757 production completely ig
146 baje427 : I am wondering how much more efficient would the 757 be with a new power plant added composites etc ?
147 CargoIT : The 767 isn't dead yet is it? The 757 is much less optimal for for cargo.
148 drerx7 : Exactly the question that Boeing is looking to answer. The thought of a 738MAX and 321NEO plying the routes is based on somewhat loosely founded conj
149 jmc1975 : yada-yada-yada....just because they know how to manipulate software doesn't mean they are creative enough to be revolutionary engineers.
150 Roseflyer : So do you believe the reason why there isn't a larger narrowbody/smaller widebody in production/development is because they don't have enough talente
151 BMI727 : Horseshit. Having more tools means having to know more tools. Not to mention that someone has to make the tools too. Consequently, an individual engi
152 Roseflyer : Also the cost of developing an airplane keeps going up. The regulations keep getting tougher. Safety keeps getting better, but it comes at a cost. Fa
153 kanban : Unless things have changed drastically since I was last in the 757/737 FAL buildings, The P-8 ITAR line is in the 4-20 building complex with the 737
154 Post contains links huxrules : Boeing did just file a patent for something similar to the sonic cruiser 2. it was published on 4/19/2012 http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120091270
155 SSTeve : I'm still rooting for them to start up a new narrowbody with the target being the rather small 757 ETOPS market-- maybe sized for 200 passengers in a
156 AngMoh : Isn't that called a 767 or 787-8 (apart from the narrowbody part)? A 200 seat narrowbody with lie-flat as well as Y+ will be awfully long. A 757-200
157 gigneil : 757s across the atlantic are there so airlines can figure out what to do with their 757s that they no longer have to fly where 737-900s and A321s can.
158 JoeCanuck : That sounds like a 762, minus the narrow body part. Wiki shows it 181 in 3 class configuration, 224 in two class. It's a lot heavier than the 739 MAX
159 rheinwaldner : Most niches don't justify much effort. E.g. the effort Boeing has put into the "748 niche" would have brought a much larger reward, if it would have
160 Hmelawyer : While I think all can agree that it is a niche market (how big or small the niche may be is debatable), even niche markets are a market to be served.
161 frmrCapCadet : This has been a great thread, including the post quoted. But let me insert of Public Service Bulletin type note. If you are male, eat lots of legumes
162 Stitch : The new 767 FAL is said to have reduced production costs by 30% and now that the line rate is increasing, that should lower costs even more. It's cle
163 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Everyone should remember FedEx stabilized the resale price of the 757 a year ago: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...eing-757-jets-freight-markets
164 CargoIT : 737-700ER and 319LR already exist.
165 drerx7 : A point to make is not only is it enough to make the 321 and 737 have enough range, they need a useful payload.
166 Revelation : As above, most customers asked for the 767 replacement to be larger: And, as above, countless places, most medium haul 757s have already been replace
167 Post contains images lightsaber : But the 737-700ER compromises short haul economics to obtain TATL range. It is going to have poor resale a la the 747SP when its long haul days are o
168 crucianpilot : If you look at my post, those are the a/c I was referring to. So no, that is not eliminated because the 738 and 739 are the a/c I was referring to. 7
169 Stitch : The 737-8 and 737-9 are the "MAX" versions of the 737-800 and 737-900ER. Based on Boeing's latest projections, the 737-8 range should be around 3700n
170 Post contains links lightsaber : Does that include the added 1.5% with the new winglets? For another 50nm range for the 737-9 (or as I like to write, 739MAX) improves the Hawaii econ
171 Stitch : Yes, I added another 50nm to the numbers Boeing have released.
172 crucianpilot : Speaking from operating experience, the numbers published from manufacturers are never close to the actual performance numbers of the a/c on the line.
173 drerx7 : I think you mean lower CASM, but correct. A 757 is more lucrative on west coast Hawaii than a 738, no matter how you spin it.
174 crucianpilot : Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks.
175 lightsaber : I could see the 753 being well suited. But there are so few of them. The 738MAX (or more properly, 737-8) will close the gap. The performance concern
176 drerx7 : What about the payload deficit? The 738max will carry less pax?
177 Stitch : That is not necessarily a bad thing. Less seats can increases the Average Sales Price per seat (per the Law of Supply and Demand).
178 odwyerpw : Lightsaber, What are the estimated pax counts and baggage payloads at 3500nm for 739Max? Using all belly tanks, no? Peter
179 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm not certain. I would assume still 177 pax from the 739ER for the739MAX (vs. 190 for the 752). The 739MAX is a half step size down from the 752. H
180 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Delta.. currently the largest 757 operator in the world and who should theoretically be #1 on Boeing's list of potential buyers currently has more 75
181 aerohottie : I've always been excited with the prospect of a long-range single aisle aircraft ala 707/DC8 dimensions but with today's technologies, twin engines an
182 crucianpilot : On the 739, specifically SAN-EWR several times a year, SEA-EWR. On the 738, IAH-ANC seems to have issues all year long. Internationally, any high hot
183 odwyerpw : If you do 177 seats, can you fit their luggage? You are taking away some capacity in the belly hold by using aux tanks no? Would think a TALT pax on
184 crucianpilot : And there lies the problem with the a/c, all those seats mean more bags with no place to put them. Never a problem on the 757, everyone's bags get on
185 2travel2know2 : Is there a chart somewhere to compare what the B757 was to what the B767 still in production is, so to check if brand-new B767 could be used by airlin
186 Post contains images lightsaber : That could be a constraint. Time for more bag fees. The 739 will have an issue with bags. The 738MAX? Should do fine. The current 738 has payload lim
187 par13del : Not splitting hairs, but in the real world, the 757 does have days TATL where it has to make fuel stops. A320 / 737 has days when it struggles transc
188 Stitch : Perhaps a thrust-bump option like GE offers on the GE90-11xB for high temperatures at lower altitudes?
189 lightsaber : Yes. The cost per flight would be that much lower. That is like asking is it worth flying the 757 TATL. Since that has been going on since 1993, I th
190 Roseflyer : Another question that does not seem to come up is, do the majority of airlines want the 737MAX or A320NEO to have more range? I would guess that the v
191 CargoIT : I think that if an airline tried to outfit a 738 with a first class section that's similar to what's offered on WBs, they'd be lucky to get 146 seats
192 Post contains images airbazar : No because you can only fly A333, 764, 787 if you have enough passengers to get a decent LF. If you don't then the 737 will be a cheaper option. So c
193 CargoIT : For most city pairs that might justify a long range NB flight there is an option of some kind of conneciton. I think if existing NBs such as the 319L
194 sweair : How much could you reuse from a 757 replacement in the NSA? If they have the same cross section and systems? Engines would differ, the wing would be l
195 lightsaber : I would say no. They want efficiency. So with will buy aircraft without the expense of the new range. They're buying for efficiency. The airlines wil
196 TSS : Agreed. According to Boeing's website, which lists the dimensions of all modern Boeing aircraft, the 727, 737, and 757 all share the same basic fusel
197 sweair : Here is an idea, they start with building the NSA in the form of a 757 replacement, 797-10, then when its mature they start marketing the NSA as 797-8
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