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New 737 Max Winglet  
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9159 posts, RR: 76
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36502 times:

Received the standard Boeing PR press release about the 737 winglet proposal,


Boeing Designs Advanced Technology Winglet for 737 MAX by The Boeing Company, on Flickr

They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
127 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4516 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36461 times:

Loving that winglet. I think I like it even better than the blended winglets on today's 737s.

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36418 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

I guess it's the best method for weight and cost savings. I would think they could just tweak a few inches from the bay to get it to fit.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36330 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

So now the 737MAX will have between 11.5 to 13.5% improved performance. I wonder if there will be other tweaks to improve the performance even further. This kind of update could be incorporated before the MAX enters service.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Interesting. It looks like they have done some changes in this angle as well.




Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36148 times:

Is it a raked wingtip and winglet combined?

User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1630 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36136 times:

Quoting oykie (Reply 3):
Interesting. It looks like they have done some changes in this angle as well.

Damn if that's really gonna be the final winglet setup I must say it looks really really cool!

Also in the picture of oykie the blister looks very subtle.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineplanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36084 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet

It is interesting that Airbus have moved from a fence to a winglet, yet Boeing are moving from a winglet to a combined fence/winglet.

Are the Blended Partners designing this or is it an exclusive Boeing design?


User currently offlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35942 times:

With Airbus going for a blended winglet on the A320 family I thought things were going to get really boring with winglet designs but this looks very interesting. The MD-11 winglet was always my favourite so I hope we actually get to see this on the MAX.

User currently offlinePackcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35893 times:

This m ight just be my eyes playing tricks on me, or I have missed an announcement somewhere along the way...

Is the rear fuselage (behind the wing box) widened and more square? It looks like the belly of the plane leading up to the tail is much more square that a normal 737 fuselage.

If I'm not way overthinking this... is the 737-MAX being prepped to take containers in the rear cargo space?



Things that fly, Girls and Planes...
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35875 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
Is it a raked wingtip and winglet combined?

Sure looks like it. There was talk earlier about the possibility of raked wingtips on the 737MAX, but I never imagined it would be in combination with the blended winglet.   

I'm glad about it though. I've done a few plane spotting classes to friends and I taught them to distinguish the 737 from the A320 by the winglets... With the A320 getting sharklets, it kind of ruined that.    Glad Boeing gives the the 737 now this, errr, raked winglet?   

Quoting planesailing (Reply 6):
Are the Blended Partners designing this or is it an exclusive Boeing design?

I'm pretty sure this will remain a Boeing exclusive for a while, if not it would have been kept secret a little bit longer - and we might see it on the NEO otherwise   



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35722 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?

On the MD-11, the lower portion of the winglet seems to be foreward the upper portion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL...as_MD-11_PH-KCK_Ingrid_Bergman.jpg

This new Boeing modified design seems to have the lower portion abeam the upper portion, and nopt bend down as much of an angle as on the MD-11.

Zeke could be right about the blister on the lower nose of the B-737-8MAX he posted. But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.

Either way, the MAX design is still a long way from frozen, as we all know. For all we know, none of these features could show up on the final design. Remember the first drawings of the B-787 from Boeing had a different nose section and vertical stabilizer.


User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35447 times:

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):

This m ight just be my eyes playing tricks on me, or I have missed an announcement somewhere along the way...

yes ... Boeing announced a few weeks ago that they have modified the tailcone section of the fuselage making it flatter and longer (among other changes) ... basically they are cleaning up any aerodynamic inefficiencies that they can find in the 737 design

[Edited 2012-05-02 07:40:49]

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35475 times:
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I've been curious as to which winglet change Boeing would implement. I find this interesting just as Airbus is committing to sharklets. This will probably force Airbus to update their winglet offering sooner than prior plan...


Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

That is impressive. The original APB winglets exceeded all expectations. Boeing needed to do this.

I'm personally curious as to what weight reduction will occur. I know of more than a few engineers who have been brought on for commercial aircraft weight reduction. After the 748 and 788, they could be employed on the MAX...

Quoting oykie (Reply 3):
I wonder if there will be other tweaks to improve the performance even further.

One of several. For example, the tailcone will look more like the A320's than the current 737NG's.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
Also in the picture of oykie the blister looks very subtle.

It does, I doubt it will be that subtle in the final form.  
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.

It is there, but the rendering obscures it. Something has to be done for the longer nose gear...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35476 times:

many more renderings from different angles here, BTW, http://www.newairplane.com/737max/gallery/#/7

User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35367 times:
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I'd be worried about transonic effets between them but maybe thats how they work?

Fred


User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2770 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35347 times:

Wow. I love it! 


Hopefully it stays this way.   



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinedash500 From Portugal, joined May 2005, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35209 times:

Probably the marketing effect will be much greater than induced drag reduction improvement...


TriStar
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1083 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 35032 times:

We also have not heard much on the hybrid laminar flow control testing that Boeing started about a year ago... It was hoped to provide an additional 1% of drag reduction, I believe??


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4390 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 34966 times:

Well, allow me to be the first one to say: that looks terrible, I hate it.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34901 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
Received the standard Boeing PR press release about the 737 winglet proposal,

     

Love it! I had pondered weather Boeing was eventually going to go this direction. In a previous thread about the MAX, I included a link to APB's ideas around the 'Next Generation' of winglet. Looks like the only thing Boeing didn't adopt (yet) from that proposal was the "scimitar" ends.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Something has to be done for the longer nose gear...

We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.


Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34907 times:

Quite a cool video in Boeing's website: http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

I thought that was interesting too.



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34749 times:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):

We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.

Yes, there is a bulge but it's not as pronounced as on the 330F.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34610 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?


... isn't all that comparable to:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Weimeng



If A330F has a blister, at best the MAX has a bump or a knock.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
Is this a new feature ?

Some nose gear rework has been discussed for quite a while, but I think this is the first time we're seeing a good rendering.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I'm personally curious as to what weight reduction will occur. I know of more than a few engineers who have been brought on for commercial aircraft weight reduction. After the 748 and 788, they could be employed on the MAX...

I would think they'd be directed towards the 789. Boeing's CEO is crowing that the weight reduction on the 789 is making it easy to do the 7810.

Quoting dash500 (Reply 16):
Probably the marketing effect will be much greater than induced drag reduction improvement...

Seems the word "shark" has to get worked in. We've already had shark fin for the orignal 787 tail, and sharklet for Airbus's winglet, so we can have shark nose for the new 737MAX.

I call dibs on shark nose!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34331 times:

The beauty contest A320NEO and 737Max has a clear winner   Really a beautiful aircraft !!!
Hope my home carrier Air Berlin will order them !!!



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinetistpaa727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 330 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 34312 times:
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Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 20):
Quite a cool video in Boeing's website: http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

What caught my attention in that video was the wing flex. Seemed pretty substantial compared to today's 737. Is Boeing changing the wing? I didn't think they were or at least I hadn't seen that anywhere.



Don't sweat the little things.
User currently offlineneutronstar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 35102 times:

That looks great! at first seeing the new winglet was a little jarring, but looking at the Boeing video, that new design looks great. I wonder if it will show up on other aircraft soon.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 26, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 35278 times:

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):
Is the rear fuselage (behind the wing box) widened and more square? It looks like the belly of the plane leading up to the tail is much more square that a normal 737 fuselage.

A new tailcone has been part of the 737MAX ever since they went public with it.

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):

If I'm not way overthinking this... is the 737-MAX being prepped to take containers in the rear cargo space?

I think there's zero chance they're altering the baggage hold since that would alter the basic fuselage cross-section. That would be a much bigger deal than just changing the tail cone.

Tom.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 35630 times:

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 24):

What caught my attention in that video was the wing flex. Seemed pretty substantial compared to today's 737. Is Boeing changing the wing? I didn't think they were or at least I hadn't seen that anywhere.

Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 35344 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 18):
I hate it.
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
Love it!

The difference in one post: love vs hate! Classic!  
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 27):
Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.

Actually you can't be sure how big the bump on the "shark nose" (tm) will be till it is built either.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12640 posts, RR: 46
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34901 times:
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Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 18):
Well, allow me to be the first one to say: that looks terrible, I hate it.

Have to agree. I don't think it looks anywhere close to as elegant a solution as the blended winglet.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePronto From Canada, joined Mar 2000, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34870 times:

Looks great!! Yep, "tiny" bulge up front is probably to accommodate gear growth. From video I see they're sticking with traditional window shades and not tint like 787?

User currently offlinebellancacf From United States of America, joined May 2011, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34908 times:

What a change from the Me 262-like hotrod that was frolicking over Lake Washington in the fall of '67! Imagine what military jets would be like if, say, the F-4 had been "tweaked" for 50 years.

User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31125 posts, RR: 85
Reply 32, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34652 times:
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Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?

Boeing has stated they needed to mount the strut lower in the fuselage, so maybe that is where the new strut mounting will be. It looks like the mounting point still allows enough articulation for the gear to fit in the original bay (or they moved stuff around to allow it to fit), so Boeing doesn't need a blister to cover the wheels ala the A330-200F.


User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34655 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
I must say it looks really really cool!



  

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Zeke could be right about the blister on the lower nose of the B-737-8MAX he posted. But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.



The rendering hides it a bit in the picture, but in the video, you can clearly see that some changes has been made for accommodating the nose gear.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
One of several. For example, the tailcone will look more like the A320's than the current 737NG's.



   It seems almost like a baby 787 with that tailcone, but I believe that efficiency is already a part of the 10-12% offered initially? With the new Wingfence/lets the MAX will get 11.5 to 13.5% better than todays 737NG and I was wondering if Boeing will do anything more than what we already have confirmed?

Quoting mffoda (Reply 17):
We also have not heard much on the hybrid laminar flow control testing that Boeing started about a year ago... It was hoped to provide an additional 1% of drag reduction, I believe??



According to FlightGlobal there is hybrid laminar flow vertical stabiliser. Not sure if this is confirmed yet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...guration-of-re-engined-737-361282/

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 25):
That looks great! at first seeing the new winglet was a little jarring, but looking at the Boeing video, that new design looks great. I wonder if it will show up on other aircraft soon.



At first I was surprised by the look, but after seeing the video this plane will look nice with the new winglet and larger engines!



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineboeingbus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 34, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34436 times:

Nice vid... great marketing..  http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

This is great... as time passes by the NEO will indeed face a solid competitor.

We've underestimated Boeing in their plans with the MAX when you compare it to the NEO. However, introducing new technologies such as redesigned winglets to the short body is a game changer.

As for schedule, I do see scope creep happening already so I am willing to bet there will be delays to this program in order to keep this plane competitive or surpass the NEO.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 33129 times:

All of the Videos and Photos of course are highly stylized. However, one element that always appears are highly polished windshield frames. It really helps to alleviate what some consider a dated design and compliments the polished nacelle inlets.

I know that I overstate the appearance of the 6 windows that comprise Section 41 of the airplane. However, from a passenger standpoint, that is the view you get as the airplane sits attached to the jetway. You are cued up in line and all you see is the front end of the plane.

Its awful to see a 737 with lots of huge paint chips around those frames. If the 6 window frames of Section41 were delivered polished up and occasionally cleaned up/shined up, it would improve the looks.

I also appreciate that although the nacelles are still a bit squat on the bottom, the inlets appear almost perfectly round. Its accentuated by polished/brushed metal. You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

Peter



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32753 times:

Interesting winglet design, I kinda like it! Though it looks a bit weird from the bottom. The video posted in opinion was very well done, so these will be called the MAX AT winglets, according to the video is the most advanced technology winglet. Seems like the 737 MAX is really taking shape now 


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32619 times:

Let's wait a few redesigns more and it will probably look like this:

http://www.netmoon.com/starwars/image/ships/tiedv.jpg


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32224 times:

Could the new winglet make the transition to the current NG?

User currently offlineBLIKSEM From South Africa, joined Jan 2008, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32152 times:
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The winglets look awesome. Boeing won't go wrong if the Max looks more and more like B787. It is sure to be a winner.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 40, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32170 times:

Can someone explain what this wingtip device does (aerodynamically) without resorting to too many equations?

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
This is great... as time passes by the NEO will indeed face a solid competitor.

Except that there is nothing to stop Airbus from installing similar wingtip devices on the NEO. There is nothing to stop them from trying their own hybrid laminar flow design.

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
We've underestimated Boeing in their plans with the MAX when you compare it to the NEO. However, introducing new technologies such as redesigned winglets to the short body is a game changer.

I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call it a game changer. Spiroids might be game changers, but as I pointed out above, if you build a better mousetrap, someone will build a better mouse.

One concern I have is the exclusive use of the LEAP. I'm concerned that the GTF might have more room for optimization than LEAP, which would wind up giving Airbus the competitive advantage.

BTW, did anyone else notice that the model in the video has a fairly prominent tail skid?


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 41, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32147 times:

This helps explain the prolonged effort in the wind tunnel in Farnborough; Boeing has had ongoing 737 activities in the UK low speed tunnel since last year. Longer than I would expect it would take them to perform the new aero-propulsion integration for the LEAP engine. However, if they have been performing testing for a new winglet development program, the scale of the wind tunnel testing seems much more appropriate.

User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31125 posts, RR: 85
Reply 42, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32102 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Except that there is nothing to stop Airbus from installing similar wingtip devices on the NEO.

If Boeing has patented them, that could be an issue. Airbus and Aviation Partners are still fighting it out in the courts over whether or not the sharklets infringe upon AP patents.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 43, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32071 times:
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Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I would think they'd be directed towards the 789.

Some will be. Most of the 788 weight reduction is being done with intent to keep the same parts for the 789. But the 748 weight reduction engineers will be available...    Some of the 788/789 team will be available in time for the MAX. Perhaps not EIS aircraft, but later examples.

Quoting oykie (Reply 33):
but I believe that efficiency is already a part of the 10-12% offered initially? With the new Wingfence/lets the MAX will get 11.5 to 13.5% better than todays 737NG and I was wondering if Boeing will do anything more than what we already have confirmed?

You are correct. I'm hearing rumors, but nothing of substance other than minor weight reduction or system simplification efforts. Some (most?) are already known and part of the 11.5% to 13.% envelope.

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
Nice vid... great marketing..  http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

Excellent marketing video. Thank you for sharing.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):
You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 31575 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Lightsaber

No question there may be performance compromises.

I was simply refering to the first impression you get from a 737Classic or 737NG nacelle, where even Joe 6-pack might think: "Yeah, they really had squash that thing to get it to fit!"

When you look at the 737Max nacelle, the reaction might be: "Yeah, they pulled allot of unnecessary weight out of that thing, look at the space saving design!"

The near round nacelle inlet of the 737Max doesn't look "crammed to fit". I'm rather impressed by how much better this engine/nacelle looks than the previous versions.

Again, I know appearances arent everything, but the windshield and engine nacelles are the items that customers stare at when looking out the window as the que up to enter the jet bridge. And unfortunately for the 737, those were the ugly parts.

This thread is about winglets. The NG winglets were always striking, but these are something else. I agree with the poster that Boeing will get allot of marketing mileage out of these things, well beyond the 1.5% increased efficiency they provide. I really like them.

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:45:21]

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:45:54]


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 30975 times:
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Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):

I also appreciate that although the nacelles are still a bit squat on the bottom, the inlets appear almost perfectly round. Its accentuated by polished/brushed metal. You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

I agree, they look "normal" (no offense NG) looks like a well rounded aircraft.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 44):
This thread is about winglets. The NG winglets were always striking, but these are something else. I agree with the poster that Boeing will get allot of marketing mileage out of these things, well beyond the 1.5% increased efficiency they provide. I really like them.

I agree again, but getting extra bonus points for marketing hype is good. Keep up the good work Boeing!

Fred


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 46, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 30813 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):
All of the Videos and Photos of course are highly stylized. However, one element that always appears are highly polished windshield frames. It really helps to alleviate what some consider a dated design and compliments the polished nacelle inlets.

I had a similar feeling when watching the video. I'd start to think "what a kewl new airplane!" when I'd see that extra kink in the tail along the upper fuselage, going back to the original 737 because they needed a bit more resistance to yaw but didn't want to redo the tail. I'd have that same feeling again till I saw yet again that covering the wheels hadn't "earned its way onto the airplane" yet. And so on.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Can someone explain what this wingtip device does (aerodynamically) without resorting to too many equations?

Wings work by the lift created by the difference in pressure between the flow on the top of the wing (which has a longer path to travel in the same amount of time) vs the flow under the wing (shorter path).

This makes the air above the wing less dense, so the airplane literally gets sucked up, that's how wings lift.

At the tip of the wing the air isn't being separated any more, so it becomes turbulent and this creates drag.

All the winglets do is keep the flows separated longer so much less of it is turbulent.

Some air at the tip spills up, some spills down. Apparently they've found putting the downward device in the airflow cleans things up even more.

A bit long-winded, but see, no equations!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Yes, I noticed that on the video too.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2433 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 30388 times:

Sorry, I don't like those winglets.. much prefer the current ones..

Also, does anyone know what impact it has on fuel consumption, not having landing gear covers on the belly of the aircraft? I guess it must be very little since Boeing has not done something about it..


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 30314 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):

I like it. Two thumbs up!!      


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 49, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 30275 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

On the other hand, that interface looks just about the same as on the 787, an airframe designed specifically with this type of engine mounting configuration.



What the...?
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 30148 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I'm personally curious as to what weight reduction will occur. I know of more than a few engineers who have been brought on for commercial aircraft weight reduction. After the 748 and 788, they could be employed on the MAX...

Alcoa's new alloy?



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 51, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 29449 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
If Boeing has patented them, that could be an issue.

Maybe. But more of a nuisance than an issue. The Airbus version just needs to be different enough.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
A bit long-winded, but see, no equations!

Yes, but I'm a bit more sophisticated than that. I understand that wingtip devices work by reducing the wingtip vortices that are created by the spanwise flow that inevitably results from the pressure difference betweent he upper side and underside of the wing. Winglets recapture some of the vortex and turn it into thrust. Raked wingtips taper the wing cross-section and so reduce the pressure gradient gradually, reducing the spanwise flow at the tips and increasing lift.

What I'm wondering is what the downward component of the winglet accomplishes that the upward component doesn't.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 52, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 29118 times:
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Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 44):
The near round nacelle inlet of the 737Max doesn't look "crammed to fit".

Agreed.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
All the winglets do is keep the flows separated longer so much less of it is turbulent.

Some air at the tip spills up, some spills down. Apparently they've found putting the downward device in the airflow cleans things up even more.

Also the winglets help create thrust from the pressure differential. Hence why the A320 family has had to strengthen the wing. Overall, I liked your description. There is a tremendous amount of lost energy in the wingtip vortex. Winglets just try to recover some of that. Its all about taking the natural tendency of the air to spin in a vortex and use that as a sort of sail.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 49):
On the other hand, that interface looks just about the same as on the 787, an airframe designed specifically with this type of engine mounting configuration.

To my eye, the 787 has a larger gap relative to engine diameter.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 50):
Alcoa's new alloy?

A possibility. I was also thinking the aft pressure bulkhead (a new CFRP design?) to reduce weight.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 28595 times:

Funny how Airbus calls them "Sharklets" and Boeing calls them "Winglets". If you ask me both companies should switch names haha.
One question comes to mind...would they gain anything if they put doors on the main gear or would the weight offset the benefit?

[Edited 2012-05-02 13:18:32]

[Edited 2012-05-02 13:21:58]

User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 28458 times:

They look stunning!! Far better than the current blended winglets. Any chance we could see them retrofitted on current 737s, 757s, and 767s?

User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 28324 times:

For some reason my first try at this didn't work. Per the WSJ:



The design is patented.
Won't retrofit to the NG.
Done without Aviation Partners, but Aviation Partners is working on something similar.
Airbus looked at this design and rejected it.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2761 posts, RR: 25
Reply 56, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 28157 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
Its all about taking the natural tendency of the air to spin in a vortex and use that as a sort of sail.

There is something I don't understand:
- we had these fence-type winglets a la A320
- the MD 11 winglets
- then the 45-degree winglets a la A 340 and B744
- then bended winglets: 737 NG, 767, 756
- then raked winglets
- and now this version

One could think that by now they should have found the optimum solution. How comes that they are still changing the concept from one aircraft to the other?

Or to say it in another way: if this is the ultimate solution, will they offer retrofitting kits for the 787 and the 350?


User currently offlinewellies From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 27673 times:

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Well, they've clearly scrapped the previous 737 designs and gone back to a Stratocruiser-based frame  


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 27595 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
A possibility. I was also thinking the aft pressure bulkhead (a new CFRP design?) to reduce weight.

I'm guessing that part of the reason for the new tail is to open up the space like the flat bulkhead on the 739ER, but without the cost and wieght penalty. Also I'm sure there is wieght and cost savings in the new structural design, along with potential aerodynamic benifits. On the last I'm not sure that Boeing might not go the other way, giving up some extra drag so long as it opens up room for more seating for the same size plane. 737's don't fly long routes so 6 extra seats would appeal to most airlines far more than a couple % in drag.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 27426 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):
if this is the ultimate solution, will they offer retrofitting kits for the 787 and the 350?

Nope. The A320 and 737 are already at the span limits of the gates they operate at. This is the main reason for going up rather than out with the tip device. When span is not a constraint, you can generally achieve an equivalent aerodynamic result at lower weight by going with a raked tip, which both the 787 and A350 already have.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 60, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 27171 times:

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 24):
What caught my attention in that video was the wing flex.
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 27):
Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.

I agree, but if the wing flex is representitive, that would indicate substantial changes to the wing from thr NG wing.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 26774 times:

It looks good. Really good. However, I find it funny that these "AT Winglets" look very sharkish. More sharkish, in fact, that the sharklets found on the NEO. 
Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):
Is the rear fuselage (behind the wing box) widened and more square? It looks like the belly of the plane leading up to the tail is much more square that a normal 737 fuselage.

If I'm not way overthinking this... is the 737-MAX being prepped to take containers in the rear cargo space?

Yes. They plan to add a new tailcone and optimise the rear fuselage to squeeze out some aerodynamic performance gains.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 62, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 26361 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 27):
Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.

Actually, Boeing's computer rendering for the 787 was pretty spot-on, so I won't be surprised if the wings behave as depicted. Boeing knows precisely how much the wings will flex.


User currently offlineChimborazo From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 26202 times:

Interesting: when it's taking off the plane has 737-8 written near the nose. But it doesn't appear to have it on there in the rest of the video.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 26066 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
Also the winglets help create thrust from the pressure differential. Hence why the A320 family has had to strengthen the wing.

Interesting. Yet another parameter to add to the equations that I didn't post!  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
There is a tremendous amount of lost energy in the wingtip vortex.

Yep.

http://www.myskymom.com/sites/default/files/1_47.jpg

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 55):
Won't retrofit to the NG.

Maybe because more wing strengthening is needed, as above?

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 55):
Done without Aviation Partners, but Aviation Partners is working on something similar.
http://www.aviationpartners.com/future.html says:

Quote:

Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet

The Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet is a follow-on design of API�s proven technology. The Split Winglet features the addition of a Blended ventral fin to the existing Blended Winglet design, in addition to Scimitar tips and a reconfiguration of the span circle. CFD results indicate a cruise performance gain of over 40% above the original Blended Winglet configuration.

Underline is mine to indicate the 40% gain is relative to the X% gain of blended winglets!  
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):
There is something I don't understand:
- we had these fence-type winglets a la A320
- the MD 11 winglets
- then the 45-degree winglets a la A 340 and B744
- then bended winglets: 737 NG, 767, 756
- then raked winglets
- and now this version

One could think that by now they should have found the optimum solution. How comes that they are still changing the concept from one aircraft to the other?

There's lots of reasons:
- Newer better ideas come along
- Newer better computers and software allow for a lot more analysis
- Different configurations put different requirements on the rest of the wing, so may not be acceptable based on that

If you follow the link above, an even newer concept is being tested, the spiroid winglet!

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winglet



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 25595 times:

With this new winglet design, does the Marketing huff n puff talk now make the MAX better than the NEO? I've lost track of the claims, counter claims and counter, counter claims.

User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 25483 times:

A few observations..

Apart from the pitot intake of the engine it looks fairly square and box shaped. Room for additional equipment? Some extra generators to go bleedless? The expansion of the engine intake looks quite dramatic considering other designs, might be my eyes fooling me, wouldn't this give unwanted additional acceleration of the air in the first compressor stages? Also the angle of the engine compared to the longitudinal axis seems even higher than for the NG.

The position of the horizontal stab. seems very far aft, or is it the vert stab that is far forwards? Looks sort of odd though.

As far as the winglets are concerned I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go with a developed spiroid design but I guess it's too expensive to manufacture. However, if someone could explain how the lower element can reduce drag further I'd be happy. It seems that instead of one vortex you're creating two smaller one and the aspect ratio doesn't seem to be quite that high as to create a substantially smaller vortex like for the raked wingtips or blended style ones.

Another question. Why do boeing keep the wheels uncovered. That must be an area where a, albeit small, gain could be found. Having the mains exposed like that must create some drag and the offset for the extra weight for putting doors can't be that much..?

All in all, a rehash IMHO. Apart from kind of weird looking engines it looks pretty nice. Will be a nice feat if they can still grandfather this on the certificate from the Classic/NG..



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlinebkircher From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 25437 times:

That is freaking sick looking!!! You wanna talk sharklets now.... That looks like a sharks fin like no other!

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 68, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 25315 times:
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Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 55):
For some reason my first try at this didn't work. Per the WSJ

WSJ links never work on a.net. I don't know why.

From online.wsj.com
article/SB10001424052702304743704577380192435861450.html

(combine the above with a slash to go to the article).


The interesting part it is cannot be retrofitted a la Airbus' sharklets. In other words, it puts on too much wing stress.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 58):
Boeing might not go the other way, giving up some extra drag so long as it opens up room for more seating for the same size plane. 737's don't fly long routes so 6 extra seats would appeal to most airlines far more than a couple % in drag.

You make a good point. One more row of seats, or even a half row, is worth more than a tiny drag reduction. Perhaps the aft pressure bulkhead will be reshaped/moved to create more room.

Quoting CM (Reply 59):
The A320 and 737 are already at the span limits of the gates they operate at. This is the main reason for going up rather than out with the tip device. When span is not a constraint, you can generally achieve an equivalent aerodynamic result at lower weight by going with a raked tip, which both the 787 and A350 already have.

   Add the A380 to that list. When the cost of increasing the wingspan is too high, the airframe has to do the most they can within the limit. Depending on how close the aircraft is to the wingspan limit (it will vary airport to airport and thus airline to airline). This creates variety.

There will never be an optimal winglet as which design picked is going to depend on:
1. Calculated margin in the wing.
2. Assumed mission length
3. Wingspan constraints
4. Wing aspect ratio
5. Wing loading (which varies by mission and payload)
6. Specific airfoil cross section
7. Winglet impact on wing/aircraft weight (aircraft structural design)
8. Amount of wing 'twist' which impacts lift, drag, and:
9. Aircraft stall characteristics.

The last is critical and will result in variation aircraft to aircraft based on selected flap design. As winglets are better understood, they will change the wing twist. How? I'm not 100% certain, but they open another design variable. Since there are more variables than can be economically engineered/tested, some will be picked on corporate bias and the rest of the design will fall out. In the case of the MAX and NEO, some of the variables are already fixed, some are too expensive to modify and thus alter the winglet selected, and some are going to receive a tweak.

To do it right, a couple hundred (if not thousand) wings/winglets would have to be analyzed for a new design. This is a case where aerodynamic changes will have a marked impact on the wing stress and thus the margins will be critical. Different companies leave different stress margins at different locations depending on little details of the design. (e.g., fastener size selected, standard fastener intervals, drill out requirements on fasteners, stringer intervals, use of 'standard' or metric sheet metal, etc.) All those details are also impacted by wing material.   

So it will be decades until there is an optimal solution. Then we go to more lifting bodies or even BWB.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 69, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 25240 times:

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 65):
With this new winglet design, does the Marketing huff n puff talk now make the MAX better than the NEO? I've lost track of the claims, counter claims and counter, counter claims.

Who cares either way. Both the NEO and the MAX will be awesome to fly... Supply contraints will help to keep them selling in equal numbers.... So, in another 5 years I suspect we will have had the opportunity to fly on both of them.

My guess is the NEO continues to maintain its advantage (the only excpetion I can think of being 738Max and 320NEO comparisons of very short segments),



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1721 posts, RR: 8
Reply 70, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 24938 times:

From the interior view of the video, there seems to be individual vents on the overhead panel. Good. I always feel somewhat less comfortable in the (newer) planes that dispense with those...

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 71, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 24777 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 59):
The A320 and 737 are already at the span limits of the gates they operate at. This is the main reason for going up rather than out with the tip device.

Indeed, one thing I thought while watching the video and seeing the MAX rendering from above just at takeoff is that I bet Boeing wishes they could increase the wingspan by around 33% or so!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 72, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 24489 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 69):
Who cares either way. Both the NEO and the MAX will be awesome to fly... Supply contraints will help to keep them selling in equal numbers....

I for one do care. If Boeing manage to eek out as much as 10% improvement from a design that is older than I am then it is a marvellous feat indeed.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 71):
Indeed, one thing I thought while watching the video and seeing the MAX rendering from above just at takeoff is that I bet Boeing wishes they could increase the wingspan by around 33% or so!

I trust a film maker even less than I do a marketing man. Let us see


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 24520 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
http://www.aviationpartners.com/future.html says:

Quote:

Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet

The Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet is a follow-on design of API�s proven technology. The Split Winglet features the addition of a Blended ventral fin to the existing Blended Winglet design, in addition to Scimitar tips and a reconfiguration of the span circle. CFD results indicate a cruise performance gain of over 40% above the original Blended Winglet configuration.

From Jon Ostrower in the online WSJ...

The company's new "dual feather" winglet would succeed the existing Blended Winglet design developed in conjunction with closely-held Aviation Partners Inc.

Boeing's proprietary design was developed outside of any consultations with Aviation Partners, said Bev Wyse, 737 vice president and general manager. She said the new design is intended for the 737 Max, not the current 737 family.

Aviation Partners is developing its own new winglet design, known as "scimitar split tip" which uses upward and downward fins similar to that of the Boeing design unveiled today.

I did write that Aviation Partners is working on their own version as reported by the WSJ. I am glad Jon is there.

Great stuff. It's fun to see a plane and a plan come together.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 74, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 24118 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 55):
Won't retrofit to the NG.
Done without Aviation Partners, but Aviation Partners is working on something similar.

I read the aviation partners version is just for the lower section...adding to their current winglet design. The lower fin can theoretically be added to current blended winglet setups, and even retrofitted.



What the...?
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2560 posts, RR: 7
Reply 75, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 23582 times:

Well, it's going to be easy to spot a MAX versus a 737 NG that's for sure. New winglets, scalloped engine cowlings, new tailcone, blister for the nose gear - this isn't your grandfather's 737

User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 76, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 23206 times:

I didn't see this posted -

http://www.blogsouthwest.com/blog/737-max-winglets-revealed

Although I hate Canyon Blue I like it a little better on this plane.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 77, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 22434 times:

Leeham linked to a close-up:



More info at: http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/

In addition to many interesting points, he quotes Boeing as saying “our major trades aerodynamically are done".

Seems the MAX is a bit more interesting than I would have thought.

At http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20120502/BLOG01/120509957 we read:

Quote:

"The concept is more efficient than any other wing-tip device in the single-aisle market because the effective wing span increase is uniquely balanced between the upper and lower parts of the winglet," said Michael Teal, chief project engineer for the 737 MAX.

Boeing said the dual feather winglet was validated during wind tunnel testing of the 737 MAX. The new winglet fits existing airport gate constraints "while providing more effective span, thereby reducing drag," the company said.

"We have assessed the risk and understand how to leverage this new technology on the MAX within our current schedule," said Teal. "This puts us on track to deliver substantial additional fuel savings to our customers in 2017."

The company estimates the 737 MAX will use 18 percent less fuel than the current Airbus A320.

I'm sure that last sentence is causing some consternation in Toulouse...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2292 posts, RR: 5
Reply 78, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21946 times:

...and Boeing's contracts team.

User currently offlineKLASM83 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 20774 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 55):
Done without Aviation Partners, but Aviation Partners is working on something similar.

That would be cool to have one of those blended split-tip scimitar winglets available for retrofit. Man, a 757 would look like a mean, clean machine with those. I do understand the ROI concerns, but a man can dream   

The 73Max sure is going to be a contender in the future, and I look forward to it!



Don't you want to hang out and waste your life with us?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 80, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19583 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):

I'm sure that last sentence is causing some consternation in Toulouse...
Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
...and Boeing's contracts team.

     You guys are too much!

So to add to my aerodynamic question, doesn't this double the number of vortices created?

Quoting KLASM83 (Reply 79):

That would be cool to have one of those blended split-tip scimitar winglets available for retrofit. Man, a 757 would look like a mean, clean machine with those.

I'm sure someone can do it up in CGI...


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 81, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19127 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):
So to add to my aerodynamic question, doesn't this double the number of vortices created?

Its not the number, its the total energy in them, and if that energy is hurting you or helping you. I'd love to see how these winglets work.


User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 82, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19015 times:

I wonder what the proposed Range will now be with the new winglets. Anyone has any idea if it could reach somewhere close to 3900-4000nm? If so, especially for the -8, -9, it could be an adequate long haul replacement for the 757 I think.


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 83, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19004 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 82):
I wonder what the proposed Range will now be with the new winglets. Anyone has any idea if it could reach somewhere close to 3900-4000nm? If so, especially for the -8, -9, it could be an adequate long haul replacement for the 757 I think.

Given the fact that it improves fuel burn by about 1.3% in cruise, probably nothing too dramatic.


User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 84, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18682 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
A possibility. I was also thinking the aft pressure bulkhead (a new CFRP design?) to reduce weight.



How will a lighter behind on the 737MAX change the center of gravity, if they introduce a CFRP aft pressure bulkhead? I would have thought that the larger (heavier?) engines on the MAX would change the center of gravity on the 737MAX, but it seems like they continue to have the same length forward of the wing and behind the wing.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 73):
The company's new "dual feather" winglet



Cool name   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
In addition to many interesting points, he quotes Boeing as saying “our major trades aerodynamically are done".



Does this mean that the only thing left for Boeing on the MAX is to reduce the weight if they want to make the MAX more efficient than the 11.5% 13,5% lower fuel burn they already have?

Quoting KLASM83 (Reply 79):
like a mean, clean machine with those. I do understand the ROI concerns, but a man can dream



Indeed! We enthusiasts should continue to dream.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 82):
I wonder what the proposed Range will now be with the new winglets. Anyone has any idea if it could reach somewhere close to 3900-4000nm? If so, especially for the -8, -9, it could be an adequate long haul replacement for the 757 I think.

Given the fact that it improves fuel burn by about 1.3% in cruise, probably nothing too dramatic.



The -8 and -9 might not be close, but the -7MAX will not be far behind the range of the 757 without winglets.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18625 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
I'm sure that last sentence is causing some consternation in Toulouse...

Why would it? The A320NEO is going to *conservatively* get 16% lower fuel consumption based on the new engine options. The "sharklets" are supposed to, per Airbus claims, result in at least 3.5% lower fuel consumption. You're looking at, basically, expected gains in the 20% range.

The only thing that's changed really is that, contingent on Boeing actually delivering upon that 18% figure, airlines operating the 737 are now more likely to stay 737 operators and not convert over. This greatly excites me.. the prospect of seeing the MAX in Westjet, Alaska, United, Delta colours is tantalising!

Now.. if Boeing opened up another 737 plant (Long Beach! haha) and somehow doubled their 737 production, Airbus had better send some lobbyist to Dallas. 



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5676 posts, RR: 10
Reply 86, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18286 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
Yep.

What will be interesting will be to see a picture like that when the wingleted 737MAX flies through a cloud.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 68):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 58):
Boeing might not go the other way, giving up some extra drag so long as it opens up room for more seating for the same size plane. 737's don't fly long routes so 6 extra seats would appeal to most airlines far more than a couple % in drag.

You make a good point. One more row of seats, or even a half row, is worth more than a tiny drag reduction. Perhaps the aft pressure bulkhead will be reshaped/moved to create more room.

Well the question I have is how accurate are the renderings/video? Because I see and count one additional window in the rear section compared to the current -900. The current one has 24 windows (and I am counting the window in the exit just aft of the wing) from the aft overwing exit back. The -900 in the newairplane.com video has 25 windows aft of the overwing exits (and it certainly has a more normally sized window on the aft-of-wing exit).

And just to complete the count, there are 23 in front (not counting the overwing exits/windows themselves) on both aircraft. For reference this is the image I am using to count the current production versions windows: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ionair_737-900_ER_first_flight.jpg

Quoting oykie (Reply 84):
How will a lighter behind on the 737MAX change the center of gravity, if they introduce a CFRP aft pressure bulkhead? I would have thought that the larger (heavier?) engines on the MAX would change the center of gravity on the 737MAX, but it seems like they continue to have the same length forward of the wing and behind the wing.

Maybe adding an extra seat row and window bank behind the wing would offset the weight?  
.
Quoting ghifty (Reply 85):
The A320NEO is going to *conservatively* get 16% lower fuel consumption based on the new engine options. The "sharklets" are supposed to, per Airbus claims, result in at least 3.5% lower fuel consumption. You're looking at, basically, expected gains in the 20% range.

Are you including that the 737 is lighter and carries more passengers in comparable models?

Tugg

[Edited 2012-05-02 23:22:30]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 87, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17807 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 85):
The "sharklets" are supposed to, per Airbus claims, result in at least 3.5% lower fuel consumption. You're looking at, basically, expected gains in the 20% range.

I thought the 16% better claim was todays A320 without sharklets compares to a sharklet equiped A320neo. Still an impressive improvement.

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Maybe adding an extra seat row and window bank behind the wing would offset the weight?

Interesting. I never counted the windows lik you did  

ATWOnline is saying the window is closing for any further major improvements for the MAX.

Quote:
Speaking to reporters on Wednesday, MAX chief project engineer Michael Teal said the window was closing fast to make any further major design changes while ensuring the MAX program stays on schedule. “This will likely be the last area of major change,” he said.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...t-major-737-max-design-change-0502



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17811 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 85):
The "sharklets" are supposed to, per Airbus claims, result in at least 3.5% lower fuel consumption. You're looking at, basically, expected gains in the 20% range.

I thought the 16% better claim was todays A320 without sharklets compares to a sharklet equiped A320neo. Still an impressive improvement.

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Maybe adding an extra seat row and window bank behind the wing would offset the weight?

Interesting. I never counted the windows like you did  

ATWOnline is saying the window is closing for any further major improvements for the MAX.

Quote:
Speaking to reporters on Wednesday, MAX chief project engineer Michael Teal said the window was closing fast to make any further major design changes while ensuring the MAX program stays on schedule. “This will likely be the last area of major change,” he said.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...t-major-737-max-design-change-0502



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17621 times:

Boeing has a Press Release regarding the new winglets:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2246

Quote:
RENTON, Wash., May 2, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today a new winglet design concept for the 737 MAX. The new Advanced Technology winglet will provide MAX customers with up to an additional 1.5 percent fuel-burn improvement, depending on range, on top of the 10-12 percent improvement already offered on the new-engine variant.

So from this the improvement is 11.5 -13.5% over the NG

They also report a 18% improvement on today's A320s:

Quote:
Airlines operating the 737 MAX now will gain an 18 percent fuel-burn per-seat improvement over today's A320. Depending on the range of the mission, MAX operators will realize even more savings.


[Edited 2012-05-03 00:01:14]

[Edited 2012-05-03 00:01:36]


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 90, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15304 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Except that there is nothing to stop Airbus from installing similar wingtip devices on the NEO. There is nothing to stop them from trying their own hybrid laminar flow design.

There's nothing to stop them doing it eventually; there's a lot stopping them from doing it *now*. These are both technologies that take a lot of design, testing, and certification. It takes time. The OEM's always catch up with one another whenever one makes a jump but the guy who jumps first gets a benefit as long as the differential exists.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Winglets recapture some of the vortex and turn it into thrust.

That's not really what happens...the winglet alters the flow over the entire wing in a way that reduces the vortex shed in the first place. The full trailing vortex doesn't really form until about half a wingspan back from the wing, which is way too late for the winglet to capture energy from it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):

What I'm wondering is what the downward component of the winglet accomplishes that the upward component doesn't.

It gets a bigger end plate on the wing without as much weight. This winglet is basically two cantilever beams...if you make a single winglet just as big, it's one longer cantilever beam. That's heavier.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):
One could think that by now they should have found the optimum solution. How comes that they are still changing the concept from one aircraft to the other?

There are way too many design variables involved for there to be one optimum for all aircraft.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):
Or to say it in another way: if this is the ultimate solution, will they offer retrofitting kits for the 787 and the 350?

These winglets are the wrong solution for those aircraft (they don't have a span restriction).

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
The expansion of the engine intake looks quite dramatic considering other designs, might be my eyes fooling me, wouldn't this give unwanted additional acceleration of the air in the first compressor stages?

It's a subsonic inlet; an expansion will slow down the air entering the fan.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
However, if someone could explain how the lower element can reduce drag further I'd be happy. It seems that instead of one vortex you're creating two smaller one and the aspect ratio doesn't seem to be quite that high as to create a substantially smaller vortex like for the raked wingtips or blended style ones.


Two vortexes shedding the same vorticity is less energy than one vortex. Also, for equal loads, two shorter wings is lighter than one long one.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
Why do boeing keep the wheels uncovered. That must be an area where a, albeit small, gain could be found. Having the mains exposed like that must create some drag and the offset for the extra weight for putting doors can't be that much..?


The offset for the doors is bigger than the drag improvement; that's the whole reason they never did it originally and it's still the reason today. The 737 isn't the only aircraft to figure this out.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 80):

So to add to my aerodynamic question, doesn't this double the number of vortices created?


Yes. That's a good thing. It's why birds have wingtip feathers (to shed many small vortices instead of one big one).

Tom.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14711 times:

Glad to see Boeing come up with something different! I was fearing the skies on 2017 to get very boring with blended wingletted NEO's and MAXes around.
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
Is it a raked wingtip and winglet combined?
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):
There is something I don't understand:
- we had these fence-type winglets a la A320
- the MD 11 winglets
- then the 45-degree winglets a la A 340 and B744
- then bended winglets: 737 NG, 767, 756
- then raked winglets
- and now this version

One could think that by now they should have found the optimum solution. How comes that they are still changing the concept from one aircraft to the other?

Or to say it in another way: if this is the ultimate solution, will they offer retrofitting kits for the 787 and the 350?

We can probably discard the first three as being 1st generation, but otherwise, I doubt there will ever be an "ultimate", final, one fits all winglet design. It depends on too many variables, mainly how you've designed your wing, but also on what type of missions you'll be flying. For instance, the 737NG has blended winglets, while the P-8 has raked wingtips. Same aircraft, two different missions, two wingtip device designs.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
It's why birds have wingtip feathers (to shed many small vortices instead of one big one).

I'll correct myself - there probably is an optimal winglet type, it's what birds have, as you say. But even different bird species have different wingtip feather layouts. There's still a lot of aerodynamics to learn for the future! and even if we could aerodynamically design "bird-equivalent" winglets, manufacturing would be another issue.


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14393 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Quoting zeke (Thread starter):They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.That is impressive. The original APB winglets exceeded all expectations. Boeing needed to do this.

It will probably decrease the gap with the NEO on the longer missions, where the MAX won't be expected to be as efficient as the NEO. Wasn't it so that a raked wingtip is more efficient on longer routes?

Quoting r2rho (Reply 91):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):It's why birds have wingtip feathers (to shed many small vortices instead of one big one).
I'll correct myself - there probably is an optimal winglet type, it's what birds have, as you say. But even different bird species have different wingtip feather layouts. There's still a lot of aerodynamics to learn for the future! and even if we could aerodynamically design "bird-equivalent" winglets, manufacturing would be another issue.

You know, I enjoy birdwatching almost as much as plane spotting. And looking at large birds like vultures and eagles I started to see more and similarities with their wings and those of the 787 and A350 - with the exception of some 'loose' feathers at the wingtips of birds. I thought it was just a trade-off by nature for the light material of their feathers, but it it's actually an advantage? Wow. So we may see future airplane wingtips start looking like this?



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinesharktail From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
There's nothing to stop them doing it eventually; there's a lot stopping them from doing it *now*. These are both technologies that take a lot of design, testing, and certification. It takes time. The OEM's always catch up with one another whenever one makes a jump but the guy who jumps first gets a benefit as long as the differential exists.

I does take time. However, there is a lawsuit between aviation partners and airbus. And aviation partners have a new winglet that looks very similar that they may not be able to use on Boeing planes now that Boeing says they own the IP on these new winglets.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...double-take-on-a-double-edged.html

So it would not shock me if the resolution of the existing airbus-AP lawsuit would be to allow the new AP winglets on the next version of the NEO. That would allow Aviation Partners to survive and allow Airbus to settle the lawsuit AND get back on par with Boeing. In fact, that would make a lot of sense to me as it is the only move Aviation Partners has to survive as a separate company.


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1328 posts, RR: 52
Reply 94, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13436 times:
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Quoting sharktail (Reply 93):
very similar that they may not be able to use on Boeing planes now that Boeing says they own the IP on these new winglets.

If Boeing has IP that on this design, then AP cannot use it on any plane without a license from Boeing. This sentence seems to imply you think they could use it on non-Boeing planes and the the patents only limit what Boeing can do. That is backwards. The purpose of the patent is to provide the owner of the IP freedom to control use of the invention by all companies. It would be more likely, in an IP case, that AP would be able to use it _only_ on Boeing planes and that they would have to, in fact, pay a license to Boeing even in that case.

Quoting sharktail (Reply 93):
So it would not shock me if the resolution of the existing airbus-AP lawsuit would be to allow the new AP winglets on the next version of the NEO. That would allow Aviation Partners to survive and allow Airbus to settle the lawsuit AND get back on par with Boeing.

If Boeing has IP that protects this design, AP cannot grant Airbus any rights to use the design - so the scenario illustrated does not make sense.

Basically - if Boeing has the patent, other companies must either license, prove the patent is invalid, or design around it. Yes - in theory - if the patent is US only, then Boeing can only enforce in the US - but that would mean AP and Airbus could not sell to anybody in the US. In reality, I'm 100% sure Boeing either has world counterparts to the patent(s) filed or issued.



rcair1
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 95, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12530 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
Yep.

Incredible photo of the energy in a wingtip vortex. Where did you find that? Or is myskymom your site?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
If you follow the link above, an even newer concept is being tested, the spiroid winglet!
Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
As far as the winglets are concerned I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go with a developed spiroid design but I guess it's too expensive to manufacture.

To answer both: Simple Spiroid winglets have a mach # efficiency limit around M=0.72. By "simple" I mean the ones that negligibly increase wingspan. To design a spiroid winglet for higher mach numbers requires a configuration that goes up at the wingtip like a blended winglet and then spirals our from the wingtip (see link below). Hence why they are being tested on slower business jets. Now, the plane should be able to fly faster, but the simple spiroid winglet looses efficiencyt. A winglet's critical Mach number needs to be higher than the wing's or it introduces issues. That is tough with an aerodynamic shape that re-attaches to wing other than at the wingtip. The following paper, which is a really good discription of how winglets work (high math quota), had an example of a spiroid winglet performing at Mach=0.85 that would extend the wingspan by 2m or 3m. Take the time to look at the figure at the bottom of page 8. It explains quite a bit of winglet performance in one figure.    It rather makes the energy benefit obvious:

http://www.onera.fr/daap/reduction-t...vil-transport-aircraft-reneaux.pdf

The other issue with Spiroid winglets is icing. The shape inherently will require more attention. In other words, more weight and longer development times. The aerodynamics of a Spiroid are tough enough it puts a year risk on the program.


A paper showing spiroid winglets working extreamly well on an ATR:
http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE_CD1998-2010/ICAS2006/PAPERS/231.PDF

IMHO, the *perfect* candidate for Spiroid winglets is the Q400, but that is for another thread.

One other issue with spiroid winglets is one wants the area of the wing without control surfaces to stall first. (It gives the pilot a warning and produces a more benign stall characteristic than just having a wing drop out.) Usually, that means making the wingtip stall first. This isn't a fault of spiroids, but they will make that engineering... tough. Which means more schedule.

Today the engine core design must be committed to years before the final aircraft size, weight, and known thrust are determined better than +/- 20%. To have an aircraft with spiroid wingtips would require fixing the aerodynamic design of the wing years earlier than is currently done with a team working for perhaps 2 years. I estimate a team of 40 to 50 could do the work in a lean orginization. (Managers, CFD engineers, old school wing experts, winglet experts, engine integration engineers, engine design team, etc.) That is, a mere added cost of $50 million (after wind tunnel and other costs). But it will have to be done with a new wing with an already set wingspan limit.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 92):
And looking at large birds like vultures and eagles I started to see more and similarities with their wings and those of the 787 and A350 - with the exception of some 'loose' feathers at the wingtips of birds. I thought it was just a trade-off by nature for the light material of their feathers, but it it's actually an advantage?

Birds have been the inspiration for winglets. The current winglet shapes are often due to the limits of materials, lack of wing flexibility (too much stress on the wing), or cost of engineering hours. More bird like shapes have been tried, but until we create self healing, as nature has, the maintenance costs are too high of a burden. We'll get there.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 96, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12521 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 92):
I thought it was just a trade-off by nature for the light material of their feathers, but it it's actually an advantage? Wow. So we may see future airplane wingtips start looking like this?

It's already happening, it's just not widespread:
http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~amwick/images/feather%20updraft%20small.bmp


Do a Google search on "winggrid" and you'll find lots more.

Tom.


User currently offlineHmelawyer From United States of America, joined May 2011, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12230 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 94):
Quoting sharktail (Reply 93):
very similar that they may not be able to use on Boeing planes now that Boeing says they own the IP on these new winglets.

If Boeing has IP that on this design, then AP cannot use it on any plane without a license from Boeing. This sentence seems to imply you think they could use it on non-Boeing planes and the the patents only limit what Boeing can do. That is backwards. The purpose of the patent is to provide the owner of the IP freedom to control use of the invention by all companies. It would be more likely, in an IP case, that AP would be able to use it _only_ on Boeing planes and that they would have to, in fact, pay a license to Boeing even in that case.


I do not think that AP blended split-tip scimitar winglet would infringe on any patents that Boeing has on its dual feather winglets. If such a conflict existed it probably would already be in litigation as to whether Boeing has infringed on AP's patent that I believe has been on file for a while. I think the issue is not whether you have infringing patents, but the fact that Boeing will now have no need for the AP winglet on the MAX so a large intended market is gone. If your only alternative market (Airbus) is also impaired by litigation, I think Sharktail's point is that it may be best for Airbus and AP to settle that litigation and AP gets a market and Airbus gets access to comparative technology.


User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12045 times:

Had the opportunity to talk to Burt many, many years ago when he first started selling VariEze kits. He wondered how long it would be for the big guys to catch on.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11551 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
The current one has 24 windows (and I am counting the window in the exit just aft of the wing) from the aft overwing exit back. The -900 in the newairplane.com video has 25 windows aft of the overwing exits (and it certainly has a more normally sized window on the aft-of-wing exit).

Look aft of the last window in the picture you posted, there is a window plug that has been installed to accommodate the lav., the current 900ER has provisions for 25 windows.

The aft-of-wing exit in the video is not an exit, but a plug. Airlines that have two classes don't need the extra exits, so many opt to have plugs with normal sized windows installed instead of exit doors.

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
For reference this is the image I am using to count the current production versions windows: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ionair_737-900_ER_first_flight.jpg

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Compolo



User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2155 posts, RR: 4
Reply 100, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11507 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 56):

One could think that by now they should have found the optimum solution. How comes that they are still changing the concept from one aircraft to the other?

I wonder if with the new high flex wing, forces you to re-think the winglet scheme?

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
The expansion of the engine intake looks quite dramatic considering other designs, might be my eyes fooling me, wouldn't this give unwanted additional acceleration of the air in the first compressor stages?

I noticed this too. I wonder if this has anything to do with improvement in laminar flow both on the inside and outside of the inlet.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 101, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11495 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 85):
The only thing that's changed really is that, contingent on Boeing actually delivering upon that 18% figure, airlines operating the 737 are now more likely to stay 737 operators and not convert over.

There's a lot more to it than whether the number is 16% or 17% or 18%...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
the winglet alters the flow over the entire wing in a way that reduces the vortex shed in the first place.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
This winglet is basically two cantilever beams...if you make a single winglet just as big, it's one longer cantilever beam. That's heavier.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
Two vortexes shedding the same vorticity is less energy than one vortex.

Thanks as usual, Tom.

Up thread it seemed to say that the lower winglet is creating the 2nd vortex, but that doesn't seem correct to me. My guess is there already is a lower surface spanwise flow, and the lower winglet is helping to shed that existing flow.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
Incredible photo of the energy in a wingtip vortex. Where did you find that? Or is myskymom your site?

Nope, Google Image search of wingtip vortex

http://www.google.com/search?q=wingtip+vortex

(which has lots! of cool photos!) led me to

http://www.myskymom.com/blogs/daniel...t-droopy-bernoullis-principle-wing



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11507 times:

One thing is for sure. The MAX will join the 747 and 380 as the most recognizable airliners in the sky.


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3080 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11395 times:

I have to say I think the blended winglets look much better - more graceful, esp when a plane with them is gently touching down.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 104, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11366 times:

Here's a nifty study I dug up on wingtip louvers;

http://www.usna.edu/Users/aero/miklo...ov/ea303/SampleReport-Winglets.pdf

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 96):

Winggrid...that's what I was looking for...thanks.



What the...?
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 105, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11361 times:

Interesting is that the video is mostly focusing on the larger variants 737-8s and -9s, the -7 is only seen very briefly at the airport. In flight the video changes from the -8 to the -9. I really do hope that the -9 will be become more succesful than the -900ER.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11298 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Are you including that the 737 is lighter and carries more passengers in comparable models?

Sorry, the numbers are for the NEO vs current-generation A320 family. Not the B737NG/B737 MAX. If the MAX is, what, 18% more efficient than the current-gen A320, the NEO still wins out by a few % points. Which can be considered irrelevant when talking about major operators of either the A320 or N737 (not both).

Now we just don't have to worry, as much, about an airline like, say, Alaska or Westjet getting wooed by far superior fuel burn from the NEO since the MAX will continue to hold the slight margin between the A320 and B737 (IIRC, the current-gen A320 has slightly better fuel burn numbers than the 737NG... like 1.5%...).

Quoting oykie (Reply 88):
I thought the 16% better claim was todays A320 without sharklets compares to a sharklet equiped A320neo. Still an impressive improvement.

Yes. I should have specified what the NEO numbers were in comparison to.   



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 107, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11229 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 100):
I wonder if with the new high flex wing, forces you to re-think the winglet scheme?

I think that the aerodynamics help.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 101):
(which has lots! of cool photos!) led me to

http://www.myskymom.com/blogs/daniel...t-droopy-bernoullis-principle-wing

It occurred to me that the 'droop' is going to really help the climb fuel burn! One issue with winglets has been the weight increase overcame the aerodynamic benefit for short missions. If the aerodynamic benefit can be increased with negligible weight increase, it shifts the minimum mission length for the winglets to 'pay off.'


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinekamboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11186 times:

I prefer Winglets (744, 340, 330) as compared to Blended Wings and Sharklets.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 109, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11115 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
That's not really what happens...the winglet alters the flow over the entire wing in a way that reduces the vortex shed in the first place.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/a...hnology/Facts/TF-2004-15-DFRC.html

Quote:
Winglets, which are airfoils operating just like a sailboat tacking upwind, produce a forward thrust inside the circulation field of the vortices and reduce their strength. Weaker vortices mean less drag at the wingtips and lift is restored. Improved wing efficiency translates to more payload, reduced fuel consumption, and a longer cruising range that can allow an air carrier to expand routes and destinations.

A few other documents agree.

Perhaps they do both?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 110, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11152 times:

A few more cool wingtip vertex pictures:

http://www.sunlakesaeroclub.org/updates_web_data/081231/Contrails_files/image004.jpg

http://www.komanetskyaviation.com/pictures/WingtipVorticies.jpg



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 111, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10989 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 110):
A few more cool wingtip vertex pictures:

Cool pictures. The 'Angel of death flares' are quite impressive.

C-130 (shows vortices):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mIEIZ2x1JE

Off thread:
I believe the flare cloud being called "Angel of Death" was based off the name of a C-130 gunship. Is that true or urban myth?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6226 posts, RR: 2
Reply 112, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10774 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
Another question. Why do boeing keep the wheels uncovered. That must be an area where a, albeit small, gain could be found. Having the mains exposed like that must create some drag and the offset for the extra weight for putting doors can't be that much..?

Wheel well doors = weight.

The tradeoff with drag might be in favor of leaving them uncovered.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 113, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10055 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 112):
Wheel well doors = weight.

Also quite a bit of cost over the lifetime of the airframe, with extra motors, hinges, sensors, wiring and plumbing that go with them. A "hubcap" and proper design of a wheel well is pretty cheap to keep maintained over 30 years.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2686 posts, RR: 4
Reply 114, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9906 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
Another question. Why do boeing keep the wheels uncovered

To use an old engineers addage: If it isn't broken, don't fix it.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9813 times:

Wow. That wingtip extension (winglet, whatchamacallit) is damn ugly!

User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 51
Reply 116, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9777 times:

And I think that wing tip is very cool looking!!! Funny how we see things differently.  


336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2433 posts, RR: 24
Reply 117, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 116):
And I think that wing tip is very cool looking!!! Funny how we see things differently.

Yes because I also think it is damn ugly.. I guess this new design is either one you love or hate.. no middle road..

To me, the 737 is like a car that has been pimped too much:

http://bilstriben.dk/bildata/images/VW-Golf-IV.jpg

http://www.designercars.dk/biler/VW-Golf-36283.jpg

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/737-200.jpg



See what I mean? I wish Boeing had gone with a brand new design instead.

[Edited 2012-05-04 04:34:08]

User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2686 posts, RR: 4
Reply 118, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9620 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 117):

See what I mean? I wish Boeing had gone with a brand new design instead.

I'm glad you're not in charge at Boeing. You'd drive them into the ground with the logic you just displayed.
You're talking purely about aesthetics. Both Boeing and Airbus must, in short, protect their income.

The technology is not yet available to make an all new aircraft advanced and more economical enough to make it a viable option, both for A or B to develop and for airlines to order.
Until the time comes that a new aircraft will have a larger enough improvement to warrant investing in it, the NEO and MAX are the perfect solutions.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 119, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9594 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 117):
See what I mean? I wish Boeing had gone with a brand new design instead.

Well, I would not say the 737 is pimped too much. It is more of a comparision of a standard Golf Mark I (737-100/200) with the next generation Golf Mark VII (737Max)



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12742 posts, RR: 25
Reply 120, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9563 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 117):
I wish Boeing had gone with a brand new design instead.

Why not enjoy both? Hopefully we'll all live long enough to see both the 737MAX and it's all-new replacement, and many many more new products from many different vendors.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 121, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9027 times:

I think anything that breaks the mold is a good thing. We're finally getting some shapes promised to us by science fiction a hundred years ago.


What the...?
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2761 posts, RR: 25
Reply 122, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8925 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 117):
To me, the 737 is like a car that has been pimped too much:

G-AVRM

Off-topic: woaw, you are showing us a rarity here - a Britannia B 737-204 with the short nacelles. Later they installed the longer nacelles:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Oates



User currently offlineHorizonGirl From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 807 posts, RR: 15
Reply 123, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7981 times:

I am absolutely in love with this design! Generally not a fan of winglets, I always thought that they made the wing look like someone had stuck the wingtip in a metal bender. In contrast, these winglets look smooth and sleek, elegant, and absolutely stunning. I feel like my longing to see a very different looking airplane has finally been satisfied, all while preserving the timeless 737 design. Seeing designs like these renews my belief in the idea that a well-executed combination of classic beauty modern technology can be mixed with remarkable results!   


Devon



Flying high on the Wings of the Great Northwest!
User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7640 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 90):
Quoting affirmative (Reply 66):
The expansion of the engine intake looks quite dramatic considering other designs, might be my eyes fooling me, wouldn't this give unwanted additional acceleration of the air in the first compressor stages?

It's a subsonic inlet; an expansion will slow down the air entering the fan.

Realized that I had reversed my thinking.. Can only blame it on a brain fart on my part.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):

Very interesting regarding the Spiroid winglet, thanks. I've only seen it once, installed on a Citation X for the Dubai airshow.

Quoting garpd (Reply 114):
To use an old engineers addage: If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

That wouldn't give a lot of new inventions now would it?.   I know what you mean. But it seems really odd that an open wheel bay doesn't create more drag than what a door system would add in weight.



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19964 posts, RR: 59
Reply 125, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7477 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 124):
That wouldn't give a lot of new inventions now would it?.   I know what you mean. But it seems really odd that an open wheel bay doesn't create more drag than what a door system would add in weight.

In the case of the 737, it doesn't. A few other models (like the CRJ) use this design, too.

There is a set of rubber flanges around the tire that close the gap between the fuselage and the tire's edge. The tire has an outer hub cap that serves as an aerodynamic fairing. There is a bit more drag than from a door, but the door system weighs a few hundred pounds.

It's not the best solution for every aircraft, but it works for the 737.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 126, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7438 times:
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Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 117):
To me, the 737 is like a car that has been pimped too much:
Quoting affirmative (Reply 124):
But it seems really odd that an open wheel bay doesn't create more drag than what a door system would add in weight.

The issue is what would have to be done to add the doors. If a major structural member had to be changed, that would cost too much.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 125):
It's not the best solution for every aircraft, but it works for the 737.

  
Boeing is doing many changes to the MAX. If it made economic sense, we would see wheel covers on the MAX. I suspect it won't due to constraints of the design.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDLCnxgptjax From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6821 times:

I know this is minor, but did anyone else notice the retractable lights on the lower fuselage weren't featured in the video or pictures? That's one of the things I like about the NG's. The lights almost look like a smile when a NG is on approach. I hope that's a feature that makes it onto the MAX.

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