Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Question On FedEx 757 Fleet And Engines  
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7651 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I would like to find out more about the Fedex 757 fleet. In particular what contracts they have out to buy further 757s. Naturally, if you know me you also know I'm focused on the engines!

The FedEx 757 fleet is growing. Per wikipedia, they now own 69 and have contracts to buy another 13. Discussion was on buying ~90:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...orlds-757-200s-in-10-years-209604/

By my math, they'll need to buy a further 20 or 30 more for 727 replacement that I cannot account for (un-contracted for airframes) or a total of 110 to 120 757s. I could see a fleet as large as 150 if FedEx expands rapidly in China.

Going through airfleets.net, I found ten Pratt powered 757s. (N990FD through N999FD) Plus two more on order. I noticed the bulk of the 757 purchases (any engine) were 1993 or order, with a few as new as 1997 build.

http://www.airfleets.net/listing/b757-12.htm

Does FedEx really only have only a dozen Pratt powered 757s? I assume the distribution has to do with which airlines were retiring their fleets and thus the purchase opportunity.

I believe the Pratt powered ex-DL 757s were are lease returns. Is that true or does FedEx have contracts to take 757s from anyone? I'm guessing a few ex-AA lessors will be talking in Memphis soon.    But I would be curious if any airlines have signed a contract with FedEx to hand over numbers of 757s. In particular DL, UA, US, or AA.

Lightsaber

ps
I'm also curious about DHL with their 41 757s and UPS with their 75 757-200PFs if they have plans to expand their fleets. For it looks as if we'll see over 300 757Fs (or conversions) flying, which is enough to sustain the fleet's 'economy of scale' for decades.


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewrenchon727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7580 times:

FDX was to take up to 30 of Delta's, but after aquiring the 3 from VX capital/Delta. Delta bought the leases on most of the aircraft in 2010. Possible airlines could be Thomas Cook which has a sizable fleet that is not wingleted and some have already gone to Fedex,With them recently aquiring N583UA, United might be a source for some more PW power. The AA airplanes are wingleted and most likely not going to end up purple. Finding a sizable fleet of non-wingleted 757 will become increasing harder to aquire.

User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7431 times:

Quoting wrenchon727 (Reply 1):
Finding a sizable fleet of non-wingleted 757 will become increasing harder to aquire.

Any chance we see a program to certify the 757F with winglets?

Peace  



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7338 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting wrenchon727 (Reply 1):
FDX was to take up to 30 of Delta's, but after aquiring the 3 from VX capital/Delta. Delta bought the leases on most of the aircraft in 2010.
Quoting bomber996 (Reply 2):
Any chance we see a program to certify the 757F with winglets?

I'm surprised it hasn't already been done. The issue will be flutter and other tests as well as the weight impacting payload (244kg with ballast).

However, I worked with an engineer who did proposals for removing the 757 window belt for freighters (replace with a much simpler "band" that would save tremendous weight).

Eventually someone, maybe not Boeing, but someone will develop a 757 winglet freighter conversion. Boeing uses costs for access to their database to keep operators in line (end of this discussion):
Question About Winglets (by Pilotaydin Sep 7 2005 in Tech Ops)

I just assumed wingleted 757s had too high a resale value for freight conversions. However, there time will come. Boeing wants the service revenue ($50k per plane in 2010 per year), so at some point the 300+ 757s with winglets will be certified for freighter conversion.

We're only ~18 months into a recovery of narrow body freighter conversions.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...conversion-market-recovers-349049/

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12445 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7143 times:

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 2):
Any chance we see a program to certify the 757F with winglets?

It's been reported FedEx isn't interested - not worth the investment in FedEx's eyes.

Quoting lightsaber (Thread starter):
Does FedEx really only have only a dozen Pratt powered 757s? I assume the distribution has to do with which airlines were retiring their fleets and thus the purchase opportunity.

I played with the airfleet data and used the Boeing customer code to add the original customer for the airframe.

I'm not sure which ones were Pratt customers, but you can see FedEx seemed to just grab what they could grab knowing they were going to gut them all and deal with a mixed engine fleet.

# MSN LN Type Delivery date Reg Original Customer
24017 162 757-28ASF 06/11/2008 N913FD Air 2000 Limited
24260 204 757-28ASF 10/07/2008 N912FD Air 2000 Limited
24367 208 757-28ASF 27/02/2009 N914FD Air 2000 Limited
24369 226 757-28ASF 16/06/2010 N928FD Air 2000 Limited
26267 538 757-28ASF 01/06/2009 N924FD Air 2000 Limited
24137 178 757-27BSF 29/10/2007 N916FD Air Holland
27122 525 757-2B7SF 13/03/2007 N901FD Allegheny Airlines / US Air / US Airways
27124 540 757-2B7SF 19/09/2007 N903FD Allegheny Airlines / US Air / US Airways
27145 546 757-2B7SF 03/04/2009 N905FD Allegheny Airlines / US Air / US Airways
27148 564 757-2B7SF 19/09/2007 N906FD Allegheny Airlines / US Air / US Airways
24289 209 757-23ASF 15/12/2007 N920FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24290 212 757-23A 18/08/2008 N918FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24291 215 757-23ASF 21/08/2008 N917FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24293 220 757-23ASF 27/04/2009 N922FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24528 250 757-23ASF 20/10/2011 N939FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24636 259 757-23ASF 18/01/2008 N919FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24924 333 757-23ASF 15/07/2009 N921FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
25490 510 757-23ASF 25/04/2008 N994FD Ansett Worldwide (AWAS)
24120 174 757-236SF 01/03/2007 N915FD BOAC / British Airways
24398 224 757-236SF 10/06/2010 N946FD BOAC / British Airways
24772 271 757-236 30/01/2012 N940FD BOAC / British Airways
24882 323 757-236SF 30/06/2010 N947FD BOAC / British Airways
25054 362 757-236SF 01/05/2008 N910FD BOAC / British Airways
25059 363 757-236SF 18/08/2010 N948FD BOAC / British Airways
25060 364 757-236SF 23/07/2011 N949FD BOAC / British Airways
25593 466 757-236F 25/01/2011 N960FD BOAC / British Airways
25806 601 757-236SF 12/01/2011 N950FD BOAC / British Airways
28665 747 757-236SF 20/04/2011 N951FD BOAC / British Airways
26266 514 757-204SF 10/05/2008 N923FD Britannia Airways / Thomson Airways
27238 604 757-204SF 15/06/2009 N925FD Britannia Airways / Thomson Airways
24330 200 757-21BSF 01/09/2008 N933FD China Southern Airlines
24331 203 757-21BSF 16/12/2009 N934FD China Southern Airlines
24774 288 757-21B 06/12/2010 N957FD China Southern Airlines
22909 101 757-232F 01/04/2012 N990FD Delta Air Lines
22911 112 757-232SF 17/05/2011 N991FD Delta Air Lines
22912 113 757-232SF 31/10/2011 N992FD Delta Air Lines
24738 274 757-230SF 28/07/2010 N997FD Deutsche Lufthansa/Condor
24748 285 757-230SF 28/06/2011 N999FD Deutsche Lufthansa/Condor
22691 155 757-225 16/07/2009 N941FD Eastern Air Lines
25240 388 757-2Y0SF 12/05/2010 N930FD Guinness Peat Aviation
24965 438 757-2Q8SF 19/11/2009 N993FD ILFC
25131 458 757-2Q8F 06/01/2011 N995FD ILFC
26270 558 757-2Q8SF 15/11/2011 N996FD ILFC
23929 153 757-2G5SF 19/05/2010 N943FD L.T.S / LTU International
24497 228 757-2G5SF 21/09/2010 N944FD L.T.S / LTU International
22780 15 757-2T7SF 03/02/2009 N935FD Monarch Airlines
23293 56 757-2T7SF 02/12/2008 N936FD Monarch Airlines
23895 132 757-2T7SF 12/04/2010 N937FD Monarch Airlines
23323 80 757-2S7F 16/02/2011 N926FD North Central Airlines / Republic Airlines



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6849 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
23323 80 757-2S7F 16/02/2011 N926FD North Central Airlines / Republic Airlines

Really?


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6810 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Thread starter):
I'm also curious about [...] UPS with their 75 757-200PFs

I'd also like to know why the first 35 (ordered between 1985 and 1990) had PW but they then switched to RR for the next 40 (ordered between 1990 and 1996).

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
24120 174 757-236SF 01/03/2007 N915FD BOAC / British Airways
24398 224 757-236SF 10/06/2010 N946FD BOAC / British Airways
24772 271 757-236 30/01/2012 N940FD BOAC / British Airways
24882 323 757-236SF 30/06/2010 N947FD BOAC / British Airways
25054 362 757-236SF 01/05/2008 N910FD BOAC / British Airways
25059 363 757-236SF 18/08/2010 N948FD BOAC / British Airways
25060 364 757-236SF 23/07/2011 N949FD BOAC / British Airways
25593 466 757-236F 25/01/2011 N960FD BOAC / British Airways
25806 601 757-236SF 12/01/2011 N950FD BOAC / British Airways
28665 747 757-236SF 20/04/2011 N951FD BOAC / British Airways

I don't know what your source is, but surely it was BEA that ordered these planes, not BOAC!


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6548 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Does anyone know how many 757s are wingleted? I believe my guess of 300 is too low. I believe it is the number prior to DL converting their fleet.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
It's been reported FedEx isn't interested - not worth the investment in FedEx's eyes.

I've heard that too. But eventually we'll be down to a pool of only wingleted 757s for conversion. I speculate it isn't worth the investment today with the much higher resale value of a wingleted 757.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
FedEx seemed to just grab what they could grab knowing they were going to gut them all and deal with a mixed engine fleet.

I would agree. I've heard of FedEx rejecting more than a few 757s, so they are having some discretion. (e.g., early US examples that were not good long term candidates). Since the European fleets became available in bulk, that seems to be what pushed FedEx to go with mostly RR and, at first, only RR.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see FedEx buying mid-range line numbers. While the majority seem to be below 400, I saw ln# 747 in there!

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
I'd also like to know why the first 35 (ordered between 1985 and 1990) had PW but they then switched to RR for the next 40 (ordered between 1990 and 1996).

Pratt did a turbine improvement PIP that should have extended maintenance intervals more than it did. Pratt had to pay, IIRC, about 25% of the first overhaul cost. UPS had to suck up future engine overhauls. I believe part of the reason is the mission range UPS flies on. RR has better economics on shorter missions, Pratt on longer. (Yea, exact same thing is true on the 777-200ER...)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12445 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
I don't know what your source is

I used http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Federal%20Express-active-b757.htm as the list of fedex active frames.

I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_customer_code to get the customer codes.

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
but surely it was BEA that ordered these planes, not BOAC!

Oh well, feel free to notify those sites of the errors you find.

In the case of Wiki, you can change the stuff yourself!

Quoting lightsaber (Thread starter):
I would like to find out more about the Fedex 757 fleet. In particular what contracts they have out to buy further 757s.

I didn't list these frames:

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Federal%20Express-planed-b757.htm

Another 18 frames about to enter service.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6311 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Federal%20Express-planed-b757.htm

Another 18 frames about to enter service.

Thank you. Very interesting. I see a bunch of ~1998 circa BA 757s and ex-Thompsonfly. So the ratio goes further towards RR. (Which makes sense for a freighter...)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6211 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Ask Wrench about a winglet 757. The original plan years a go was to have 1 common type. We now have several types in a subfleet with the different carriers we've acquired. Currently, we are looking at a contract with a legacy to acquire multiple frames. At this time we are not considering additional frames directly related to any 727 retirement.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6162 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):
Ask Wrench about a winglet 757.

You have me curious. Would you IM Wrench about this thread please.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):
Currently, we are looking at a contract with a legacy to acquire multiple frames. At this time we are not considering additional frames directly related to any 727 retirement.

My impression is that FedEx has been opportunistic. They have control right now. FedEx knows the cost to keep flying 727s and thus limits the cost spent on 757s. The reality is that each new 757 is replacing a lower and lower utilized 727. Thus, the value of the replacement is low. I also think FedEx *knows* the legacies will have to start retiring their 757s eventually. So they can wait. I do wonder what the price threshold is for FedEx to support the cert of a wingleted 757 conversion.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6119 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
You have me curious. Would you IM Wrench about this thread please.

I believe there is some kind of STC issue that prevents it but if that's the case it's only a matter of time before it's retrofitted. The segments flown and the cost factor involved will be the determining factor. I'm sure it's already being considered by the money gurus. The amount of pax 757s already retrofitted with winglets definitely limits our purchase power at present.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
My impression is that FedEx has been opportunistic. They have control right now. FedEx knows the cost to keep flying 727s and thus limits the cost spent on 757s. The reality is that each new 757 is replacing a lower and lower utilized 727. Thus, the value of the replacement is low. I also think FedEx *knows* the legacies will have to start retiring their 757s eventually. So they can wait. I do wonder what the price threshold is for FedEx to support the cert of a wingleted 757 conversion.
FX is indeed in a good place right now. The 727s are less fuel efficient, less range, and haul less density, but there is still a niche market where the paid for in full 727 lives. Don't mess with it if it works they tell me. The price threshold for a cert on the 757 seems to be on the same page as the 777BCF for FedEx.

[Edited 2012-05-03 13:45:05]

User currently offlinedynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
I don't know what your source is, but surely it was BEA that ordered these planes, not BOAC!
Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
Oh well, feel free to notify those sites of the errors you find.

In the case of Wiki, you can change the stuff yourself!

The 757 order was placed in 1978. Neither BOAC nor BEA was in existence by then. The order was placed by BA. The Boeing code for BA (36) was inherited from BOAC. Thus, the wiki reference of BOAC/British Airways is also correct.

Quoting lightsaber (Thread starter):
I would like to find out more about the Fedex 757 fleet. In particular what contracts they have out to buy further 757s. Naturally, if you know me you also know I'm focused on the engines!

With PW2000 powered 757s being so concentrated with two carriers---roughly 2/3 of the PW fleet with UA and DL, and neither airline is likely to let go the right vintage 757s for FX to convert, FX 757 fleet will be overwhelmingly RR powered. That's the reality.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6041 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting fxramper (Reply 12):
The segments flown and the cost factor involved will be the determining factor. I'm sure it's already being considered by the money gurus. The amount of pax 757s already retrofitted with winglets definitely limits our purchase power at present.

But there seem to be enough....

I would be curious to know if DHL is expanding enough to be interested in wingleted 757s? I really have no clue. I would have also thought that FedEx in China would need more aircraft, but I haven't seen a big purchase move by FedEx for regional feed in China.

Topic related, does FedEx have many 757s based in China? Is there a link on their China based airline network?

Quoting fxramper (Reply 12):
but there is still a niche market where the paid for in full 727 lives. Don't mess with it if it works they tell me.

I concur. That niche is slowly getting more expensive as the 727 'economy of scale' fades. So at some point, the decision will be made for FedEx.   But not for 5 or more years.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 12):
The price threshold for a cert on the 757 seems to be on the same page as the 777BCF for FedEx.

I wouldn't go that far.   The issue with the 777BCF is the resale value of the host airframes. It is simply not worth paying to certify the conversion with the purchase expense of the airframe. I personally think FedEx/Boeing won't have anything to do with the wingleted 757 freighter cert until a large number of wingleted 757s become available at the $12 million or less price point. I believe the AA 757 replacement will make that happen.

And maybe the $12 million price point is too high... That is simply my SWAG.

Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 13):
With PW2000 powered 757s being so concentrated with two carriers---roughly 2/3 of the PW fleet with UA and DL, and neither airline is likely to let go the right vintage 757s for FX to convert, FX 757 fleet will be overwhelmingly RR powered. That's the reality.

The reality is the fleet is about 60% RR anyway... I agree that UA and DL are not ready to part with their 757s. With AA buying 460 narrowbodies, I think they would be a much more likely source. A RR source.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinedynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
The reality is the fleet is about 60% RR anyway... I agree that UA and DL are not ready to part with their 757s. With AA buying 460 narrowbodies, I think they would be a much more likely source. A RR source.

But at FX, it will likely be much higher than the 60-40 split because of who have the most PW powered fleet.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5984 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
But at FX, it will likely be much higher than the 60-40 split because of who have the most PW powered fleet.

Agreed. If the fleet does indeed become 90, I see a 35% chance that FedEx purchase no more Pratt powered 757s.  
Or 13% of FedEx's fleet with Pratts.   

It all depends on UA and DL's 757 replacement strategy.

Late edit:
I see quite a number of older 757s stored:
http://www.airfleets.net/listing/b757-1.htm

If suitable by FedEx's standards, they just do not have a shortage of RR powered 757s to choose among today. But there are a few DL and NW 757s stored with Pratts. So the question is, what is the selling price? The ex-NW 757s (browsing the photos), might not have winglets...

Lightsaber

[Edited 2012-05-03 15:16:59]

[Edited 2012-05-03 15:19:16]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
But there are a few DL and NW 757s stored with Pratts. So the question is, what is the selling price? The ex-NW 757s (browsing the photos), might not have winglets...

None of the stored ex NW 757s (5500 series) have winglets. The older DL frames in storage (line numbers 120, 126 and 128) have no winglets. I'm not sure about the ex NW birds but the stored DL jets are pretty high cycle and may be unsuitable for freighter conversion. (Some of the DL 757s currently in service have over 44K cycles.)


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5906 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
I don't know what your source is, but surely it was BEA that ordered these planes, not BOAC!

BEA merged with BOAC to create BA in 1974, 4 or 5 years before the 757 program was launched with orders from Eastern and BA.


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5863 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I would be curious to know if DHL is expanding enough to be interested in wingleted 757s? I really have no clue. I would have also thought that FedEx in China would need more aircraft, but I haven't seen a big purchase move by FedEx for regional feed in China.

i can't speak for DHL as they are only competition in Europe, but the current pilot contract at FX has adequate Airbus pilots doing the Intra-Asia flying. I haven't looked at a pilot schedule in a few years, but we use to have 14 on 16/17 off. Live in TN, commute to Subic Bay/Guangzhou, drive around for a few weeks, go home for the rest of the month. Atlas has the same deal inside Asia.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I concur. That niche is slowly getting more expensive as the 727 'economy of scale' fades. So at some point, the decision will be made for FedEx. But not for 5 or more years.

There will be a breaking point as the economy continues to slip but the last .pdf I saw had the 727 still profitable. The reasons for retirement was decrease in domestic shipping, not because the frame wasn't efficient enough for profitability.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
The issue with the 777BCF is the resale value of the host airframes.

I know that isn't true because I saw estimates on what FX was willing to pay. The problem was cost on conversion and the host companies gambled and gave us a crazy figure and it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. We dumped 777F options and figured we could do the same thing with a brand new 767F as we could with a used 777BCF.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5760 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting B757forever (Reply 17):
I'm not sure about the ex NW birds but the stored DL jets are pretty high cycle and may be unsuitable for freighter conversion. (Some of the DL 757s currently in service have over 44K cycles.)

Happy TWO YEARS on a.net!   

Ok, good information to know. They might be in the same camp as some of the US birds, too well used to be of interest for $6.5million dollars of conversion (plus inflation).

Quoting fxramper (Reply 19):
but the current pilot contract at FX has adequate Airbus pilots doing the Intra-Asia flying.

Thank you. I'm surprised the market hasn't grown enough to justify a 2nd type (the 757). Just my    Are any 727s flown in China? I suspect the answer is no.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 19):
There will be a breaking point as the economy continues to slip but the last .pdf I saw had the 727 still profitable.

This I do not doubt. But we're (slowly and painfully) pulling out of this recession. (I know I was a bear forever, but the indicators look good, outside of Brazil and certain countries in Europe, that is...).

Quoting fxramper (Reply 19):
I know that isn't true because I saw estimates on what FX was willing to pay. The problem was cost on conversion and the host companies gambled and gave us a crazy figure and it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. We dumped 777F options and figured we could do the same thing with a brand new 767F as we could with a used 777BCF.

Interesting. However 777 resale values are still pretty high which increases the conversion costs to FedEx as there is little business case to expect other customers (near term).

The 767F must have been a sweatheart deal for FedEx. Everything I've heard is that even the engines were hard fought over.

I expect the 'pencils to be sharpened' on the 777BCF as about the 200th A350 enters the global fleet. By then 777 resale values will make it imperative for Boeing to preserve 777-200ER resale values. Not out of any kindness, but to ease the sales of 789s.    Note: I picked 200th A350 when it is really a combination of A350/789 and narrowbodies displacing widebodies freeing up aircraft for conversion... but that is getting too far off topic.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 19):
There will be a breaking point as the economy continues to slip but the last .pdf I saw had the 727 still profitable. The reasons for retirement was decrease in domestic shipping, not because the frame wasn't efficient enough for profitability.

The domestic economy isn't really slipping though. It's rebounding - freight lags a bit behind where the economy is at. Last summer the domestic economy was worse, but freight was still at higher levels than it is this year. However, it appears to be turning around, slowly but surely. The past couple weeks have shown a solid increase in volumes.

But, to address your statement, how did replacing the 727 with the 757 have anything to do with a decrease in volume? Is the lower operating cost of the 757 meant to offset closer profit margins on the 727?


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6887 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5637 times:

Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 13):
Thus, the wiki reference of BOAC/British Airways is also correct.

It may be correct that BA used the x36 Boeing code but any association of BOAC with the 757 is hardly "correct". At best, it is highly misleading. At worst, it is just wrong.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Pratt did a turbine improvement PIP that should have extended maintenance intervals more than it did. Pratt had to pay, IIRC, about 25% of the first overhaul cost. UPS had to suck up future engine overhauls. I believe part of the reason is the mission range UPS flies on. RR has better economics on shorter missions, Pratt on longer.

Thank you!   

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
So the ratio goes further towards RR.

Boeing produced 1,049 757s (including both the -200 and -300) of which 59% had RR and 41% PW. But in terms of customers, RR's advantage was much greater: 77% vs. 23%. In fact, only 14 airlines and two leasing companies bought PW. So, there are not only more RR 757s out there, they are much more widely distributed.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5559 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 21):
It's rebounding - freight lags a bit behind where the economy is at

Don't get me started. I'm in aerospace R&D. We're a *very* lagging industry.  
I concur the economy is rebounding. May I recommend: http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/

Note: I'm not a stock market bull. As soon as interest rates go up...

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
In fact, only 14 airlines and two leasing companies bought PW. So, there are not only more RR 757s out there, they are much more widely distributed.

Ouch... A pattern repeating with the GP7200 on the A380.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

DHL operate a mix of both RB211-535C/RB211-535E4 powered B752SF & RB211-535E4 powered B752PCF.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinemjgbtv From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Shoo me away if this is too off-topic, but what determines where the 727s get replaced next as the 757s become available?

User currently offlinedynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
It may be correct that BA used the x36 Boeing code but any association of BOAC with the 757 is hardly "correct". At best, it is highly misleading. At worst, it is just wrong.

The wiki reference is the 36 Boeing code is for BOAC (before BOAC/BEA merger) and for BA (post merger). The wiki reference is strictly about the code, not the 757 order. Go back and read Reply 8. Since the order was made in 1978 when BOAC no longer existed, then 36 would refer to the post-merger BA.

It was you who made the wrong statement that BEA ordered the 757.

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
I don't know what your source is, but surely it was BEA that ordered these planes, not BOAC!


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

Quoting mjgbtv (Reply 25):
Shoo me away if this is too off-topic, but what determines where the 727s get replaced next as the 757s become available?

I know one of the factors is if the market is regularly bulking out a 727 volume-wise it will likely see an upgrade to 757. I think stage length of route is also a factor - given two equal size markets, FX seems to like putting the 757 on the longer stage length keeping the 727s closer to "home" so to speak.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

Are the Fedex B757s ......14.5 pallet or 15 pallet on the main deck.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5145 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Are the Fedex B757s ......14.5 pallet or 15 pallet on the main deck.

14 positions, which are PAG/SAA size.


User currently offlineUps Pilot From United States of America, joined May 1999, 871 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4691 times:

When FDX was gobbling up Dc-10s back in the day it was a cluster because of all the different models and options they brought into the fleet. Main example was landing gear configurations. From what I remember there was 4 different main gear configurations on top of the other differences.

As far as the question about UPS and the 757. All UPS' 757s were new builds. UPS has some 757's parked at gateways and the 757 will be phased out over time in favor of wide body heavy jet fleet.


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 12
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4552 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting B757forever (Reply 17):
None of the stored ex NW 757s (5500 series) have winglets. The older DL frames in storage (line numbers 120, 126 and 128) have no winglets. I'm not sure about the ex NW birds but the stored DL jets are pretty high cycle and may be unsuitable for freighter conversion. (Some of the DL 757s currently in service have over 44K cycles.)


The stored 5500 series ex-NWA 757's will not fly again for Delta...unless that plan changes and changes soon. In fact, the next batch of retirements from the active fleet is due to primarily come from the flying 5500 series planes. I believe this has more to do with Delta trying to lower the number of configurations in the '57 fleet -- as similar build Delta 757's from the mid-80's have more cycles due to Delta's short-haul use of the 757's over the years out of ATL.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13008 posts, RR: 100
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4492 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting n7371f (Reply 31):
In fact, the next batch of retirements from the active fleet is due to primarily come from the flying 5500 series planes. I believe this has more to do with Delta trying to lower the number of configurations in the '57 fleet --

Perhaps the 5500 series 757s will (partially) go to FedEx?   

As I noted before, FedEx is now replacing rather low utilization 727s. While the variable costs on the 727s are high, the benefit per new 757 is declining (unless the package market picks up quickly). I do not expect FedEx to big high as they can only justify the cash outlay if the costs savings are high which means a lower purchase price (or retrofit price, but that is unlikely).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 12):
but there is still a niche market where the paid for in full 727 lives.

I assume that niche exists for small markets that don't see as much shipping to warrant an upgauge but are a short enough hop from Memphis that the increased fuel burn is negligable, especially if you factor in point-to-point flying (like DSM-MSN-MEM or PIA-IND-MEM)?



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Perhaps the 5500 series 757s will (partially) go to FedEx?

I thought Fedex had looked at them previously and rejected them?


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 8
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting planespotting (Reply 33):
I assume that niche exists for small markets that don't see as much shipping to warrant an upgauge but are a short enough hop from Memphis that the increased fuel burn is negligable, especially if you factor in point-to-point flying (like DSM-MSN-MEM or PIA-IND-MEM)?

Eventually that niche will disappear as the relative cost of maintaining an ever-shrinking fleet becomes too weighty in the face of high fuel and labor and, assumedly, increasing volumes. The biggest cost for FX is payroll - much more than fuel - and that extra butt in a 727 seat costs quite a bit in the long run, plus the 727, even the newerish builds, have far worse dispatch reliability than the 757. I personally watched a 1976-build go on hard mx the other night with freight loaded for MEM. FX can simply not afford for that type of thing to keep happening.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Question On DL 757 16/144 Config posted Thu Feb 18 2010 10:06:25 by 764flyer
Question On SQ 62/61 And IAH - Please Help posted Mon Mar 3 2008 02:10:12 by SU
Question About FedEx Mainline Fleet posted Sun Dec 31 2006 04:43:33 by AviationAddict
Question On Continental 757-2Domestic Cabin posted Thu Feb 2 2006 03:18:13 by AA737-823
FedEx Future Fleet And A380? posted Wed Jan 19 2005 22:11:34 by Ltbewr
Question On SAS 737 Fleet/destinations posted Thu Feb 5 2004 23:06:49 by Mozart
US Airways To Reduce F/C Cabin On The 757 Fleet? posted Thu Sep 11 2003 23:53:25 by John
Question On SQ 744 PTV And Windows posted Thu Mar 15 2001 22:56:13 by 747-fan
Question On SQ, DL, And EK 777 Engines posted Tue Oct 30 2007 22:54:20 by Kaitak744
AA 757 Fleet Question posted Thu Sep 8 2011 08:42:05 by 28L28L