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Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10410 times:

First Rise :-

Good management at BA combined with bad management of Pan Am, TWA and European legacies like LH and AF.

Fall :-

Primarily not many airlines have had their core markets attacked like BA has over the past 10 years. Combined with economic hell, oil prices and terrorism. LHR capacity issues.

Second Rise :-

Effective and sometimes brutal (but necessary) cost cutting i.e domestic/ short-haul schedules, staffing costs etc. Achievement of goals against sometimes equally brutal opposition i.e AA (anti-trust), IB (merger) and more recently BD (LHR slots). Terminal 5.

Brief I know but accurate ?


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10379 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
Second Rise :-

Effective and sometimes brutal (but necessary) cost cutting i.e domestic/ short-haul schedules, staffing costs etc. Achievement of goals against sometimes equally brutal opposition i.e AA (anti-trust), IB (merger) and more recently BD (LHR slots). Terminal 5.

The new To Fly, To Serve branding campaign seems to have injected some pride back into the airline as well. That being said I am hoping the staffing cuts don't reach my level!



Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlineEI912 From Ireland, joined May 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

I agree with your synopsis, however the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish) etc. However T5 is definitely a bonus, albeit with the current immigration delays!

That being said, BA has managed to get itself into a very respectable condition before the global spotlight truly hits come Olympics time!

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:50:57]

User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish)

Actually, those two are completely different sorts of integration, don't you think? If BA act quickly, they don't need to fear inheriting BD's losses.

[Edited 2012-05-02 12:36:02]

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9968 times:

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
however the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA

Well I think that's just the airline industry for you. You never know whether you're on your arse or your elbow !!



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineEI912 From Ireland, joined May 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9842 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 3):
those two are completely different sorts of integration, don't you think?

Yep I agree with you, they're not the same, but it still won't be an easy task for BA to sort it all out. As you say, BA need to be quick as possible with the process.

[Edited 2012-05-02 13:16:35]

User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9677 times:

BA is in no way on a second rise. IAG is keeping its head out of the water at best. BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market which has been rebounding as of late but will eventually return to pre-2007 levels and thus hit its peak. This is bound to happen sooner rather than later. The market BA makes most of its revenues in is the most saturated long haul corridor in the world. BA will then struggle to grow unless it makes a bold move into Asia, tapping new passenger flows.

On the other hand the second leg of IAG has much better long term prospects on the basis of its current market focus. IB is currently in a mess but once that is over (which is bound to happen in the next few weeks) it has two corridors where it can grow much faster than BA: Europe-LatAm and Europe-Africa, with LatAm/US-Africa being the two corridors with the biggest potential. In LatAm it already has a dominant position and in Africa IB has a geographical advantage over other European airlines: thankfully for IB most of Africa is within reach of an A319 from MAD, giving it a good shot at a sizeable bunch of routes in the upper half of Africa that would be undoable with anything bigger.

BA on the other hand needs to move deep into Asia, where unfortunately it doesn't have much of a strong presence outside India. The problem is that Asia is bound to be a bloodbath for airlines over the next few years as everyone ramps up capacity and the Gulf airlines continue to dump prices on Y. On the other hand BA can't move into LatAm boldly because it's IB's turf and it already has a noticeable presence in Africa.

The 787 might change a few things (new routes in LatAm and Africa), but in terms of growth, BA has a problem in the medium term.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9569 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
Brief I know but accurate ?

Broadly accurate yes.

All of the big internal structural issues have been addressed (reforming working practices, pension deficit recovery plan and so forth). A few years ago it did seem that BA was on a path of gradually declining relevance. But having acquired 8 slot pairs last year and up to 56 slot pairs at LHR this year and fixed the cost base, BA is now growing.

Culturally, the organisation seems to have undergone a significant change (and one workgroup had to learn this the hard way). The days of sidestepping difficult issues are over and there is a lot of investment in service innovation at the moment (witness the use of iPads by crew and other projects being trailled the moment).

Competition from the Gulf carriers and LCCs is intense but I have more optimism about the future of IAG and BA than a lot of other airlines in Europe at the moment. And however much the Gulf carriers grow, London remains a preeminent global destination and one of the most important travel markets in the world.

Times in the industry will remain tough but at least there's a willingness to go out there and face the competition and compete that BA has lacked in some markets in the past.


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9388 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):

I would agree with most of it, but the "fall" part makes out that BA was blameless, and that all it's woes were a result of external influences. It's true enough, but there was also a period where there arrogance, complacency and poor service were "business as usual" at BA. They relied far too heavily on their image as a true global airline, with an untouchable network and position within the industry.

LH and AF were certainly poorly managed, but they did not compete in the same way they do now. PA and TWA were certainly in poor shape in terms of mismanagement, but right up until they sold their LHR route authority in 1991 TWA was certainly a match for BA in Terms of service. That said, they only competed on the major north American routes like BOS/JFK/IAD/MIA/ORD/SFO/LAX.

At one point, BA was a dinosaur, run by an "old boys club" who thought they were immune to the strains placed on the rest of the industry. Fortunately they saw sense, bought in some new blood and eventually regained their place as one of the industry leaders



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinelukeyboy95 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 1096 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9274 times:

I'm surprised you didn't suggest the second 'fall' being the unveiling of their Olympic balls-up of a 'dove' jet.

Still, it is an interesting period for BA, and IAG as a whole. It is definitely going through a 'rise' at the moment in that it looks much more robust now than it did during the uncertainty of 2 years ago.

I think management (WW?) seems to be instilling a great sense of identity within the company, that waned horrendously during the strikes. It is great to see - The 'TFTS' advertising campaign helped greatly with this healing process. But...

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish) etc.

I concur, in that I still don't see this as a straightforward rise. They need to iron out alot of major issues before more strength can return to the business. Alot of uncertainty still exists, and whilst this is the case, the airline will not be able to prosper.

But I will say that I had pessimistic views of how it would fare against the rapidly evolving aviation market 2 years ago, but am pleased to say I think it is mostly riding the storm. May it continue.



Breaking down the stereotypes - one by one
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8901 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
I would agree with most of it, but the "fall" part makes out that BA was blameless

I agree...look at the 'tails' fiasco...to replace Landor with 'that' !! Was a nice idea but it stopped there.

I was just trying to keep it as brief as possible though.

(maybe slightly selectively)

 Silly

[Edited 2012-05-02 23:29:04]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8618 times:

I think alongside the first rise could be counted frustrated opportunities: -

* Unable to pull off mergers/acquisitions with at various times SN, KL, CO, UA;
* Then the US partnership founded when the long struggle to get a deal with AA was first unveiled.


The fall should include: -

* The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.
* The inability to develop a dual-hub operation due to the overlap of LHR/LGW duplicating feeder traffic and O&D being hit when certain longhaul routes moved to LGW.
* Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.
* The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8569 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.

With hindsight though European short-haul isn't a great place to be these days....

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.

Inevitable ?

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.

Maybe...but my take on it is that it never would have been approved anyway...some in the EU and our American friends were positively outraged by the idea. BA was seen as already too powerful and the timing of it was too early.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10906 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8564 times:

Quoting jetblast (Reply 1):
The new To Fly, To Serve branding campaign seems to have injected some pride back into the airline as well.

British Airways is one of the two Concorde airlines along with Air France.
A symbol of excellence world wide.

They are prestigious historical airlines providing excellent service, top level cabin and cockpit crews and ground staff with top of the line aircrafts and safety.

British Airways and Air France will live on for many more years.

        



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8534 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The fall should include: -

* The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.
* The inability to develop a dual-hub operation due to the overlap of LHR/LGW duplicating feeder traffic and O&D being hit when certain longhaul routes moved to LGW.
* Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.
* The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.

You've missed out GO, launching a low cost competitor, which then resulted in BA operating from LHR, LGW and STN. Whilst they did manage to sell GO to U2 for a profit, it was an unwelcome distraction on management time.

Plus the massive orders for 744's and 772's which had to be scaled back when the downturn came along, leaving BA short of cash for quite some years.

Just about all of Rod Eddington's time at the helm was spent getting over the financial mishaps of his predecessor Bob Ayling. Much to his credit he left the airline in a fit state to move forward.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8525 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):

Well with the EU in mind common sense 'should' have dictated that IAG, Air France-KLM and Lufthansa Group be 'at least' in the same alliance.

Centralized hubs and a 'viable' network of efficient and cooperating short-haul.

But no, what do we get ?

A right old shambles.

UA, DL, EK etc

We gotta bat big !!



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6790 times:
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Quoting Talaier (Reply 6):
BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market

Agreed. Look at the prices of a BA ticket across the Atlantic compared to other markets. For example, a seat in J to ORD is routinely over £5,000 for an 8 hour journey. Yet you can get a ticket to SYD on the same dates for a couple of hundred pounds less, and sometimes this route falls as low as £3,000 - this for a 22 hour journey! This is an extreme case but the same effect can be seen on routes to Asia.

The reason I think this is, is because BA do not suffer competition from Emirates et al across the Atlantic, as they do on routes to Asia. Going to ORD from London via Dubai makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly back-tracking to Europe does not make much sense for the British business person either, unless the fare is particularly sharp.

Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.


User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6655 times:

True, vhtje, but then try flying Paris-ORD or FRA-ORD on BA in J, you will find prices around £2,000. Flying BA transatlantic in J or F via LHR is alot cheaper than from LHR transatlantic (the same exists on other European carriers if you route via their hub).
A bit off the point, but interesting nonetheless.


User currently offlineliverpoola380 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions

I think this one of BA's biggest mistakes with its shorthaul and domestic network.

Selling GB to U2 opened the doors wide open to the UK shorthaul market and as a direct result I believe Easyjet are now the dominant carrier out of LGW

Its a shame to see the demise of BA in the regions with T3 at MAN once dedicated to BA and LGW North Terminal but qudos to Easyjet for spotting the opportuninty and running with it.


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 16):
Agreed. Look at the prices of a BA ticket across the Atlantic compared to other markets. For example, a seat in J to ORD is routinely over £5,000 for an 8 hour journey. Yet you can get a ticket to SYD on the same dates for a couple of hundred pounds less, and sometimes this route falls as low as £3,000 - this for a 22 hour journey! This is an extreme case but the same effect can be seen on routes to Asia.

The reason I think this is, is because BA do not suffer competition from Emirates et al across the Atlantic, as they do on routes to Asia. Going to ORD from London via Dubai makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly back-tracking to Europe does not make much sense for the British business person either, unless the fare is particularly sharp.

Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.

BA have competition on almost every route they serve. ORD for example has AA (kind of!) UA and VS, and most key routes are similar. It is true that EK, and also EY and QR have taken a chunk of the Far Eastern and Australian market but there will always be people who would prefer to fly BA.

The middle Eastern carriers have been particularly agressive in gaining a foothold in these markets. BA has responded, notably with its tie up with QF which resulted in a large scale consolidation.

Ultimately though, it is very difficult, maybe impossible, to analyse one route over another based on published prices. Revenue management is such an art these days, with so many variables that understanding pricing and cost bases etc. is nothing more than guesswork. For example, BA may deliberately be selling J tickets to ORD in DEL or BOM for £1k as a connection. The LHR-ORD flight is hugely expensive, and capacity controlled, but most of the flight is sold off elsewhere in the network for far less.

Even VS, who everyone on A.net assumes has no feed, regularly sells 75% of one of its NYC services as connections from DEL. The prices from LHR to NYC are sky high because they really want to keep market share on the connections.

Sorry, a bit rambling but hopefully it makes sense!



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3288 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6533 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 6):
BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market which has been rebounding as of late but will eventually return to pre-2007 levels and thus hit its peak. This is bound to happen sooner rather than later. The market BA makes most of its revenues in is the most saturated long haul corridor in the world.

Good heavens, glass half empty or what? Always funny when people fixate on growth, growth, growth versus profitability. IAG will grow, BA should be able to remain profitable.

Quoting liverpoola380 (Reply 18):
Selling GB to U2 opened the doors wide open to the UK shorthaul market and as a direct result I believe Easyjet are now the dominant carrier out of LGW

Are you suggesting BA should have remained losing money in a market in which it was clear it had not and could not make money.


User currently offlineliverpoola380 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
Are you suggesting BA should have remained losing money in a market in which it was clear it had not and could not make money.

All BA had to do was adjust its business model slightly. U2 seem to be flourishing and can often be much more expensive than BA on certain routes out of MAN and LGW


User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6465 times:
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Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 19):
BA have competition on almost every route they serve.

Absolutely! No argument from me on that. But my point was that competition does not come from the Middle Eastern carriers on the routes across the Atlantic.

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 19):
Revenue management is such an art these days

Exactly, and that's why I said "somewhat good management" - I think BA's revenue management team are clearly very expert at what they do.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6447 times:

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 14):
You've missed out GO, launching a low cost competitor, which then resulted in BA operating from LHR, LGW and STN. Whilst they did manage to sell GO to U2 for a profit, it was an unwelcome distraction on management time.

BA did not sell Go to U2, they sold it to 3i, who later flipped the company to easyJet. I still believe the reason for setting up Go was a good one, basically to exert some level of control on the growth of easyJet and Ryanair in the UK market, which would later spread across europe. I firmly believe that BA should have held onto Go, of course there were powerful vested interests that worried that Go would become the backbone of BA shorthaul, once Bob Ayling was ousted at the helm of BA, that was the end of Go.
With Go, IAG would likely have a low-cost airline trading across Europe and easyJet would be a lot smaller. Indeed I suspect that much of the operation we see today as orange would be tended by a multi-coloured fleet of A319s and A321s, I think the overall IAG short-haul operation at Gatwick would look very different and mostly Go-operated.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 16):
Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.

Well with respect...you make your own luck.

Just as with EK...... BA had the foresight to make the most of a particularly well placed hub geographically.

Is is hardly luck if BA's competition on the Atlantic has 'up until now at least' been relatively weak in terms of quality compared to themselves.

(excluding VS of course but they have never really had the benefits of size for both themselves and their customers)

UA and DL to the west, EKand SQ to the east and FR et al in the middle.......luck ??

[Edited 2012-05-03 07:37:24]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
25 vhtje : Well, yes - the geographical location of the UK is very lucky for BA. The good management part is that they have taken advantage of it so well.
26 lhr380 : Not kind of at all. AA and BA have the JBA on US routes so share profit. They are not a competitor at all.
27 sevenheavy : I know....it was meant to be tongue in cheek. Fair point though. That said, there are still elements of competition, even in the strongest JV. Both c
28 mikey72 : I don't think BA really suffer on routes to Asia because of EK et al. Not with LHR originating traffic anyway. Even regional regular long-haulers wil
29 Mike909 : I couldn't disagree more. The on board product of BA is mightily inferior to that of most other modern airlines nowadays, especially considering that
30 mikey72 : We are fortunate to still have a national flag carrier. Let alone one that is actually making money. Why do you think that is Mike909 ? Cost cutting.
31 Mike909 : Mikey 72, can't be coincedence that all my stories and friends' stories of rude FA's on BA (and one time on UA) I have never experienced this on any t
32 Talaier : Well profitability is good but if there is no growth then investors will move elsewhere where they get both. There are plenty of high dividend stocks
33 TYCOON : Having flown over 150 airlines worldwide, rather than being a cabin crew of one British flag carrier, I can honestly say that I wouldn't rank BA on-bo
34 mikey72 : What BA has to do is use the limited resources (slots) at its disposal in a way that creates the most remuneration. Now with the recent slot boost th
35 GSTBA : I have experienced rude FA's on AC, AF, AZ, BA, BD, CO, CX, DL, EK, EY, FR, KL, LH, MH, QF, QR & SQ . I have also experienced polite, welcoming F
36 mikey72 : Umm....3. Not many for a multi-cultural city with a population of 2.2M on an airline that opens up the entire eastern hemisphere with little if any c
37 david_itl : Comparing with EK alone - 4 times as many flights. 2 times as many seats. Looking at the CAA provisional stats for March comparing the London market
38 mikey72 : David of all the destinations that these carriers connect people with from MAN why are there NO non-stop services offered by the home carriers of the
39 GCPET : A definite fall has to be moving all operations to London, at the end of 2008. Virgin would be an airline that has benefited from BA moving all operat
40 rutankrd : ? No competition to Emirates from Manchester - You do know One service is an A388 ? Going East Etihad - 2 daily Qatar- upto 2 daily Singapore - upto
41 mikey72 : Thank you. And how many of these airlines have to support a base in MAN rutankrd ? Is it......none....I wonder ? Oh and I would just add that alot of
42 rutankrd : Local employers Etihad - European Sales, Marketing and development departments and yes a call centre, Plus line maintenance and engine testing of A33
43 lhr380 : But none of those airlines BASE their aircraft and crew base at MAN. That is where it becomes costly.....
44 rutankrd : True and no one disputes that, but even BA would not need to BASE any aircraft at Manchester if they ever wanted to consider returning to an hypothet
45 lhr380 : Which in turn would cost more as more crew would be staying "away" from base...
46 rutankrd : again not disputed but thats a small cost and anyway they could reposition on shuttle. All that said when did BA EVER have this mythical major Long H
47 Blue100 : Indeed, not to mention that the current JFK schedule is almost entirely 744's with perhaps 1 trip being done with the 777 (mostly the 77W I believe?)
48 rutankrd : Again agreed. the main problem is getting those dumb a**ses in Watership down and their cosy alliance with corporate clients to even realise its exis
49 skipness1E : High dividend stocks, in the airline business? In Europe??? It's easy to slam BA, mainly because being based in London it's hard to serve such a mark
50 Post contains images mikey72 : Do EK have a scheme similar to Dreamflight (amongst others that BA are a part of) in the UAE ?
51 rutankrd : Under islamic laws charitable giving is an obligation.
52 mikey72 : That's a yes then ?
53 rutankrd : Qualified yes !
54 anstar : VS have a crew base of about 300-400 at Manchester.
55 mikey72 : Oh we're not talking about Disney World here anstar.
56 Post contains images sevenheavy : At the risk of taking the bait.....its not a question of two seperate operations. They allocate their fleet and capacity appropriate to the route, bu
57 skipness1E : FOUR HUNDRED CABIN CREW at Manchester??? What? For two flights a day? Really? As for same service and product outside LHR, that's absurd and we both k
58 Talaier : I admire how BA, as part of IAG, has turned around itself over the last few years and it has been wise to focus on its core business. The problem wit
59 Post contains images skipness1E : Madrid - Barajas I believe Why do you think Mr Walsh has declared war on Spanish Practices...... Well I've never actually used term that about Spain
60 BA174 : Sorry I don't believe that at all. I am sure VS don't base ANY crew at MAN and they fly the routes through the system e.g. LGW-MCO-MAN-MCO-LGW etc in
61 sevenheavy : You don't have to believe it but it's true. There are a large number of cabin crew that solely operate the MAN routes, and have done for years. And y
62 mikey72 : Core business being mature is not a 'problem'. Not when it generates the kind of revenue that TATL does. Airlines with slot / capacity issues are lik
63 Post contains images mikey72 : Oh sevenheavy, i'm done arguing. I havn't got a problem with VS, I just get a bit frustrated with your boss sometimes... but I can understand / appre
64 Post contains images sevenheavy : Surely not, anyway, where would this site be without differences of opinion? I dont think I ever said he was my boss, and i have agreed with you on c
65 skipness1E : Virgin do have cabin crew based at MAN but no flight deck crew. I would be astonished if it was really 400! It is utterly disingenuous to say there is
66 sevenheavy : It's all comparable....in fact I believe LGW's OTP beats LHR....at least the stats I have seen say so, I'm happy to be corrected. Aircraft cleaning i
67 skipness1E : I think they always have been given the first wave pitches up before 6am and nothing leaves before 9,
68 sevenheavy : We could split hairs over the timings but yes, BGI, ANU and a couple of the others arrive very early on. That doesn't tell the story though. Average
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Worldwide Destinations Of BA And BMI? posted Sat Oct 3 2009 10:01:29 by Vasu
Efficiency Of BA And CX - OneWorld Alliance posted Mon Oct 9 2006 16:58:33 by DernierVirage
UK FT: An Analysis Of Rod Eddington's Apology posted Wed Jul 30 2003 09:19:31 by Singapore_Air
The Life And Times Of An Airline CSA posted Sat Jun 7 2003 02:54:10 by MSYtristar
An Analysis Of National's Failure posted Wed Nov 13 2002 18:45:14 by 727LOVER
Future Of BA NCL-LHR And NCL-LGW posted Tue Feb 12 2002 23:20:43 by GKirk
Number Of BA And AF Concordes posted Sun Nov 11 2001 21:06:27 by Bobbydgg
Bmi Now Part Of BA posted Fri Apr 20 2012 02:43:58 by richardw