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So BA Is Killing Off BMI....  
User currently offlinejonnyclark From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 115 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14763 times:

So out of the news of the last few days, BA is killing off bmibaby in September and has cut 1,200 jobs from the acquisition of main line BMI and now are farming out the old A330 routes of BMI to the Middle East out to MeridianaFly's crew and
Fleet... Surely they have excesses staff and fleet that could operate that route. It just reaffirms they're only interested in slots and not the welfare of the staf of the airline they bought... How did this get passed by anti-competition laws?!? Oh and yes... They just launched new route to Seoul


Jonny, commercial pilot & founder of Thedesignair
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkidMarque From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14753 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
So out of the news of the last few days, BA is killing off bmibaby in September and has cut 1,200 jobs from the acquisition of main line BMI and now are farming out the old A330 routes of BMI to the Middle East out to MeridianaFly's crew and
Fleet... Surely they have excesses staff and fleet that could operate that route. It just reaffirms they're only interested in slots and not the welfare of the staf of the airline they bought... How did this get passed by anti-competition laws?!?

It's funny, my memory must be failing me but I don't remember you waving your cheque book at Lufthansa



DUCK !
User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14638 times:

Did anyone think for a second BA were going to do anything with bmi other than make use of the slots?

User currently offlineBritMidFokker From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2012, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14597 times:

Unfortunately this isn't really much of a surprise. To me it always seemed the main reason behind BA/IAG's take over of bmi was for slots. It's a great shame as bmi used to be a fantastic airline (probably more so back in the British Midland days). Recently it has lost it's focus big time, chopping and changing routes, barley managing to fill 49 seat E145's out of LHR!! etc etc. With the exception of BFS/BHD & DUB almost all of the 'traditional' routes bmi served are already flow by BA out of LHR or LGW.

I will be interested to see what happens to ex bmed routes though. Don't forget BA had to chance to buy bmed and serves these routes a few years back but chose not to.

bmibaby, in my opinion was doomed from day 1. It was a knee jerk reaction to Go announcing a base at EMA. I worked for bmi at the time, and remember reading in the company magazine that Sir Michael had long been considering launching a low cost subsidiary. I didn't believe it then and I think time has proven me right. There has been almost no investment in baby, the 737 fleet is worn out, totally wrong for most of the routes they fly and leased. With the possible exception of Jet2 who would possibly want to buy baby? The good news for EMA is that Monarch and Flybe. have stepped in to fill the gap.

What happens to bmi regional is also going to be interesting. To me they seem the most organised part of bmi and operate quite a few niche routes with some success. I can't see Flybe. wanting to buy them, only to inherit a fleet of E145's, a type that they themselves inherited and retired only a few years back. Who else could be interested?

It is sad that BA has disintegrated bmi like this but it has been coming for a long, long time. Hopefully these newly gained slots will allow BA to strengthen it's LHR hub and I think ICN is a step in the right direction!


User currently offlineSkidMarque From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14586 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 2):
Did anyone think for a second BA were going to do anything with bmi other than make use of the slots?

Nope, all except for jonnyclark obviously



DUCK !
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14501 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
Fleet... Surely they have excesses staff and fleet that could operate that route. It just reaffirms they're only interested in slots and not the welfare of the staf of the airline they bought... How did this get passed by anti-competition laws?!? Oh and yes... They just launched new route to Seoul

And of course it's got absolutely nothing to do with past BMI management.

I know babies are expensive but £25M a year ?

You should be thanking IAG.

Without them everyone at BD would have lost their job.

That's the bottom line.

Seoul is great news and the first of many new routes.

Better get used to it.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1241 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14248 times:

The problem with bmi is that their old model that we all remember with affinity was long gone. Easyjet, Ryanair and the others made sure of that. Just like BA cant make money in Europe neither could BMI and bmi didnt have any longhaul markets to make up for this.
BMI will be missed. They were a lovely little outfit in the 80ies and 90ies but for the last decade I cant say they have been what they once were.

BA bought bmi for slots. They arent savings jobs or doing anyone a favour. They see to themselves and for them, slots at LHR were worth more than it was to anyone else. Capitalism works that way.
LH had of course taken the slots they wanted in advance to the acquisition so BA didnt get half of what they really wanted but thats another story.

So frequent flyers with BMI now have the option of using BA or any of the competitors.
What I heard was that a surprisingly large amount of the important travel accounts didnt want to go BA but has instead opted to stay with Star Alliance.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3550 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14073 times:

LH attempted to sell BMI baby to anyone who expressed an interest, well when I say "sell" in fact they were offering money to anyone who would take it off their hands, despite many months of trying, no one wanted it. IAG only took it as a precondition of their purchase of BD, and then at a considerable discount.

Quite how this is all BA's fault is beyond me.


User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 14020 times:
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I'm sorry, I am far from being a BA fan ( just ask Mikey about some of the disagreements we have had! ) but this is simply nonsense. BA did not and does not need to 'kill off' BD. BD was a barely animated corpse when BA acquired it. Even though I would prefer two viable ( and that is the key word here) network carriers at LHR BD had ceased to be viable.


Furthermore BA were always completely honest right from when the deal with LH was proposed that they did not want and would not keep either BMI Baby or BMI Regional.

As to the question of how it got past the competition authorities, I put it to you that they realised that without this deal BD was dead anyway, and that there were no other serious bidders.

I don't deny that in an ideal world I would have preferred to see a healthy BD merged with a healthy VS in A* , but even if that was ever realistic ( and frankly, I have my doubts) that time has long passed.

As unpalatable as some of us may find it the options were:

BD disappeared and all jobs went

or

BD disappeared and a lot of jobs went but a lot of jobs were saved



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13957 times:

I should just add that regardless of my allegiance on this site I certainly don't want anyone 'ever' to lose their job unnecessarily to boost the standing of a company.

That though is not the case here.

It is in fact the reverse.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13822 times:

I am sorry to hear that people are losing their jobs but IAG has bought a very heavily loss making business and ultimately they do have a responsibility to minimise the impact of ongoing losses in the bmi group on the whole company.

It is little comfort to those who are facing redundancy, but overall I think IAG buying bmi will be positive for UK aviation and jobs in the long term.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13783 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
just ask Mikey about some of the disagreements we have had!

Easy...we'll be meeting up for a pint next.

LAX ?

  



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13749 times:

I think Lufthansa has experienced (and paid a lot for this experience) that even by giving BD the extra job to fly a lot of connections on their behalf and by pumping a lot of money into them there is no business case for them. Nothing to add.

I have a lot of pity for those who loose their jobs now, but that it the logical consequence of the liberalization and increased competition on this market. BD is not the first airline with a known brand to disappear, and will not be the last. Of course, the Wall Street crises, the weakness of UK economy and the instable situation in the Near East make things worse for BD, but that only effects the when, not the if of the termination.

Western aviation could go back to state owned or controlled airlines, blocking all competition, price fixing, job saving, but I doubt that is the right way to go. In Europe(without Russia), there is place for three competing network carriers that we can name, 3 competing low cost carriers, two of them we can name, and very few charter/holiday specialists ( if at all), but that's it.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13681 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 12):
I think Lufthansa has experienced (and paid a lot for this experience) that even by giving BD the extra job to fly a lot of connections on their behalf and by pumping a lot of money into them there is no business case for them. Nothing to add.

I have a lot of pity for those who loose their jobs now, but that it the logical consequence of the liberalization and increased competition on this market. BD is not the first airline with a known brand to disappear, and will not be the last. Of course, the Wall Street crises, the weakness of UK economy and the instable situation in the Near East make things worse for BD, but that only effects the when, not the if of the termination.

Western aviation could go back to state owned or controlled airlines, blocking all competition, price fixing, job saving, but I doubt that is the right way to go. In Europe(without Russia), there is place for three competing network carriers that we can name, 3 competing low cost carriers, two of them we can name, and very few charter/holiday specialists ( if at all), but that's it.

You're right Burkhard and I don't blame LH for thinking BD and its LHR slots could be highly advantageous for them.

I do still believe however that BA should have acquired BD in the beginning because they could have absorbed the most and probably exercised more damage limitation.

It's just too late in the day now.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 13618 times:

Oh...i've just noticed my original post has been deleted.

I'll tone it down a bit............

I don't understand the frustration with BA, sorry.

Why aren't some of you directing your ire at LH ?

It may have been unintentional but it is still a fact that LH handed BD to IAG in this state.

Stripped of a big chunk of its most valuable asset.

Thank heavens there is still some value left for British aviation and British jobs.

Amazing.

Better ?



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 578 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13495 times:

I think Mikey raises a good point re the management. The airline is only as good as the management that runs it, surely.

With losses of £100m that has to come from somewhere and is totally not sustainable. Perhaps if management put in the extra 10% they wouldn't now be in a mess with no job to go to. In all honesty, being a very senior manager at Baby surely wouldn't look that good on your CV given the losses right now.

I'm sad BMI has gone but it seems to be incompetence and management sitting around on their finger, doing nothing other than shutting their eyes and hoping for the best. Baby should have been streamlined years ago. Manky planes flying routes that didn't warrant such aircraft. Fighting battles with EasyJet and Ryanair at EMA obviously took its toll.

A real shame to see the British Midland name leave the midlands after so many years, with its roots going back to 1949... It's an airline I fondly remember, the airline that stirred up my interest in aviation and the airline that I will remember with fondness.



146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13400 times:

Does anyone have a breakdown of the regional airports ref the biggest players and their percenatge of flights from these airports ?


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13318 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
So out of the news of the last few days, BA is killing off bmibaby in September and has cut 1,200 jobs from the acquisition of main line BMI and now are farming out the old A330 routes of BMI to the Middle East out to MeridianaFly's crew and
Fleet... Surely they have excesses staff and fleet that could operate that route. It just reaffirms they're only interested in slots and not the welfare of the staf of the airline they bought... How did this get passed by anti-competition laws?!? Oh and yes... They just launched new route to Seoul

Errm BA have always said the A330s are going. When you have over 200 aircraft in your total fleet including over 100 wide bodies of which only 2 are inherited A330s it's hardly worth keeping them is it? As mentioned ref jobs the other alternatives would have been a bmibaby style closure from LH of the whole airline top to bottom and the whole lot would have gone never mind 2 A330s. Infect the wet lease will only be until July and them BD staff will resume the flying until late October.

Virgin should have got it of course and everything would have been all different from the word go hehe.


User currently offlineheebeegb From Finland, joined Sep 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13260 times:

BMI killed BMI. ..................................................................

User currently offlineeire123 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13179 times:

It would be nice to see BA livery on the A330s. Even if it is only for a short time, but it does look unlikely...

User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12808 times:

The writing was on the wall the moment LH decided to pull out and sell up.

Had VS gotten their mitts on BD, everyone would likely have lost their job and the airline completely folded in favour of the slots. VS has no domestic services, never has and never will. It does not fit their business plan.

BA have saved more jobs than they have cut. They are merging BD equipment into the BA line and retraining staff to be up to BA standard. The A330's make no sense in the BA fleet and are thus being WFU.

BA have done far more than simply take the slots and run.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12772 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 20):
The writing was on the wall the moment LH decided to pull out and sell up.

Had VS gotten their mitts on BD, everyone would likely have lost their job and the airline completely folded in favour of the slots. VS has no domestic services, never has and never will. It does not fit their business plan.

BA have saved more jobs than they have cut. They are merging BD equipment into the BA line and retraining staff to be up to BA standard. The A330's make no sense in the BA fleet and are thus being WFU.

BA have done far more than simply take the slots and run.

  

(love the pic of the 'teched up' Titanic...did you do that ?)



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinejonnyclark From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12705 times:

I guess my original observation got lost in how I phrased it... Why if you have to get rid of staff due to there not being enough job roles being available, would you then get a third party to fulfil the position that these staff could do? Surely it's more financially viable to keep on a few more BMI staff and get them in the mix rather than having to pay out pensions and what-have-you to them to make them redundant and then pay a third party to fly the route for you.

They have the metal (as we can see the new Seoul route) and plenty of staff they are having to cut, so what's the need? If the cost base is so much cheaper using MeridianaFly what does it show about the BA business model?!

I am not blaming BA for getting rid of staff from BMI, just how it had been handled. I feel for everyone at BMI, it was a good product that just kept getting ransacked for their raw materials. Plus if you were a regular on the Saudi routes, because of the product offering only to see that BA had taken on the route, you would expect perhaps an increase in product offering by this acquisition... Imagine how you' would feel when you stepped on board a MeridianaFly aircraft instead.... It's all just very odd.



Jonny, commercial pilot & founder of Thedesignair
User currently offlinebwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12634 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
now are farming out the old A330 routes of BMI to the Middle East out to MeridianaFly's crew and

The wet lease was always planned as is just to cover planned maintenance

Quoting garpd (Reply 20):
They are merging BD equipment into the BA line

Aircraft are already being repainted. G-MIDX is the first and should be rolled out in a couple of days at EMA.

Quoting garpd (Reply 20):
and retraining staff to be up to BA standard.

I think you meant to say, retraining staff to BA standards. Pilots are starting courses in the next couple of weeks. Cabin crew have just been given options to move over to BA and decisions will be taken in the next couple of weeks.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12512 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
(love the pic of the 'teched up' Titanic...did you do that ?)

What pic? Don't think it was me, but now I'm curious



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12960 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Reply 22):

BD arranged this to cover maintenance of the A330 fleet. This has nothing to do with BA or IAG, nor outsourcing. BD has a long history of leasing in aircraft on a wet/damp lease basis. I can think of the Icelandair 757 to operate IAD, Arkefly 767s to Saudi, Astreaus 757s to Africa as the more notable ones. This is nothing to do with the take-over, rather a reflection on the limitations of the small BD fleet.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12831 times:

Quoting bwaflyer (Reply 23):
Aircraft are already being repainted. G-MIDX is the first and should be rolled out in a couple of days at EMA.

That's what I was on about.

Quoting bwaflyer (Reply 23):
I think you meant to say, retraining staff to BA standards.

That's exactly what I said.  



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1321 posts, RR: 10
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
Surely they have excesses staff and fleet that could operate that route. It just reaffirms they're only interested in slots and not the welfare of the staff of the airline they bought..

All I can say is welcome to capitalism! BA is a commercial organisation and is interested in making money. If you want social welfare, work for the government or sign on!

But being serious, where did it all go wrong for BMI?

[Edited 2012-05-04 06:33:37]

User currently offlineLHRXXXLHR From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12175 times:

Why are we discussing this again? It has always been about the slots, the slots and nothing but the slots. If it was about their route network and competitive cost structure then we would be talking about the highly competitive nature of the UK air travel market with BA under attack from Virgin on long-haul and BMI/LH on short- and medium-haul. And yes, we have heard over and over about how full the planes to XXX are but it was a loss-making operation for a long time. The idea that BA is some sort of bad actor here is nuts. Instead of 1200 jobs lost the number would be more like 2500. Isn't it time to put this topic to bed?

User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12135 times:

Quoting BritMidFokker (Reply 3):
Don't forget BA had to chance to buy bmed and serves these routes a few years back but chose not to.

Two points seem relevant to me:

It wasn't just the BMED routes that were up for grabs - but BMED the company and all the obligations that come with it. Back in 2007 BMI reportedly paid £30m for BMED not much more than pocket money to BA - so I wouldnt be surprised if BA took one look at the books and said no thanks.

Also I believe that BA had an option over the BMED slots which it exercised when BMI bought them out - so BA got the slots but not the planes, routes or any corporate liabilities etc which stayed with the new owners - this could of course be a contributory factor as to why BMI got into the state it was prior to its sale by LH.


User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9037 times:

Don't hate on BA, in fact had no one bought BD (or even if VS had) then we'd be looking at an entire airline shut down and a lot more jobs lost.

Remember, this isn't a "merger" this is a buyout, BA have bought out BD and therefore are free to do what they like with them (within reason). There's no business case for operating BD alongside BA, so they will simply change the BD fleet, cabin crew, pilots and groundstaff up to BA standards. This is still early days and new routes cannot be opened overnight. BA will need to look at where they have rights to fly to and they may well keep some of the BD routes!

As for the middle-eastern routes (therefore I presume just LHR-RUH-JED/DMM) operated by the BD A330 G-WWBD (I've been on that route and aircraft many many times), it's on a high lease rate, it's tatty inside, does not fit in with the BA fleet and BA already operate a 4 class 777-200 on the LHR-RUH and I believe a 767 on a separate JED flight. I would imagine BA will possibly expand capacity on the route and at most add another daily flight (or just take over the BD flights seeing as BA's departure from RUH was 8am and BD's 1am and add them to their existing schedule provided Saudi law allows this - they may need to offer SV more flights/slots into LHR)

Personally, I'm glad BD went to BA as it will be well managed and I know many of you love to hate BA (for some reason) surely you realise that they are doing a good thing here and if that means shutting down BD and BM then so be it


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1423 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

BAs not a charity! I dont think anyone was under any illusion as to what IAG would do with BMI!

And considering BMIBABY and Regional had nothig to do with the original sale, it was only a matter of time!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7993 times:

Does this mean that we can finally see BA serving DUB and BFS/BHD again?

User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7908 times:
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Quoting miaintl (Reply 32):
Does this mean that we can finally see BA serving DUB and BFS/BHD again?

Only Belfast City has been identified as a retainer by Willy.

Dublin may be endangered


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 32):
Does this mean that we can finally see BA serving DUB and BFS/BHD again?

Yes, BA will be serving DUB and BHD.

BHD was confirmed some time ago, and a report in today's Irish Independent newspaper confirms the DUB service.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7868 times:

Yes they have confirmed continuing both of those routes.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 33):
Only Belfast City has been identified as a retainer by Willy.

Dublin may be endangered

The both are starting to look good for BA service especially BHD. Hints at the DUB operation are promising. I wonder will BA offer Club Europe to DUB and then just the normal Domestic to BHD ?


User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

The whole of the buy out utterly stinks, in fact the whole direction commercial aviation in Europe (and the US) taking is extremely worrying. I believe we now have a cartel* of three major companies dividing up Europe with the sole aim to increase shareholder profits at the expense of the consumer. Do LH/Star, BA/OW, AF/Skyteam consider each other competitors any more? How else could you explain this deal? In how many other industries do deals like these occur?

Before anyone accuses me of paranoia, it's not as if BA doesn't have a three decade history of illegally trying to reduce competition within the industry.


*CARTEL: A cartel is a formal (explicit) agreement among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production.[1] Cartels usually occur in an oligopolistic industry, where there is a small number of sellers and usually involve homogeneous products. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 32):
Does this mean that we can finally see BA serving DUB and BFS/BHD again?

Yes, BHD very shortly. A friend of mine says that she has already seen a BA tail at BHD but I cannot verify that.

As I use the BHD to LHR route frequently, I'm really looking forward to having BA here.

Looking back, in my opinion it was due to BMI in the first place that we lost BA here in Northern Ireland so it's amazing how things turn full circle if one is patient. It's not that I have anything in particular against BMI, I have flown dozens of times with them, but as others have already said, I have felt for years that they had lost their way. Also if I started to give my opinion of BMI Baby's place in the UK airline scene, I would only be repeating what has been amply stated already.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6146 times:
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Kill or save the remnants? If the LHR slots weren't worth so much, BMI would have failed years ago.

Quoting BritMidFokker (Reply 3):
Unfortunately this isn't really much of a surprise. To me it always seemed the main reason behind BA/IAG's take over of bmi was for slots.

   While some of the flying will be as feed, BMI couldn't be turned around by LH as *A feed at LHR... How could anyone else have saved anything?

Quoting garpd (Reply 20):
The writing was on the wall the moment LH decided to pull out and sell up.

I would argue earlier, when LH couldn't make a profit off of their feed.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 37):
I believe we now have a cartel* of three major companies dividing up Europe with the sole aim to increase shareholder profits at the expense of the consumer.

If that is the case, new entrants will have an easy time into secondary markets. Oh wait, FR, US, EK... Soon US airlines flying TATL. They had better not become too greedy. That creates market openings.

I believe only by consolidating slots at LHR would BA remain viable. The market is growing, LHR is not... But now BA will grow; they will grow for years

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

Quoting awthompson (Reply 38):
Looking back, in my opinion it was due to BMI in the first place that we lost BA here in Northern Ireland

It was the same situation here in the Republic too. Once BD launched their excellent Diamond Service to DUB, it was the end of BA, who often sent L1011's in during their tenure. They could probably sustain the low fares onslaught into LTN and STN from the fledgling Ryanair at the time, because they had Heathrow, but BD's arrival was the end.

They also pulled out of ORK and SNN at the same time.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 37):
The whole of the buy out utterly stinks, in fact the whole direction commercial aviation in Europe (and the US) taking is extremely worrying.

I agree with you to a point. LH and AF both sought to swoop into LHR and compete with BA on the home turf initially (you'll remember AF's LAX, and then JFK service, while LH sought to compete through BD). That is hardly the actions of a cartel, but lately, it seems that they have given up on trying to upstage each other in their respective "home" markets, and are rather nicely divvying up the Continent between themselves.

However, i'd also point out that a profitable industry is in the consumer's interest in the longer term as it guarantees continuity of service.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 37):

OK, so you would rather see LH fold BD and make 3000 people jobless?
Remember IAGs bid was the only serious one. VS' was just a token bid, with it being half the amount of IAGs and posted after IAGs put theirs on the table.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 37):
Before anyone accuses me of paranoia, it's not as if BA doesn't have a three decade history of illegally trying to reduce competition within the industry.

If you look deep enough just about every large corporation has had some sort of shifty dealings in the past and present.
VS admitted being in cohorts with BA. Why don't you mention them?
Why focus only on BA? Got a chip on your shoulder perhaps? I think you do and it is clouding your judgement.

I would rather see a failing airline absorbed into a more successful one, saving as many jobs as possible, than have it crash and burn.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4481 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 40):
However, i'd also point out that a profitable industry is in the consumer's interest in the longer term as it guarantees continuity of service.

Oh give the man a medal !!

Well said.

Quoting garpd (Reply 41):
OK, so you would rather see LH fold BD and make 3000 people jobless?

Exactly.

I find all this rather delicious because IAG were 'always' the only realistic option from every single angle.

BD's unfortunate demise is a direct result of the LCC's and deregulation.

People that sing the praises of these developments in the industry are no doubt the same people complaining about the resulting 'cartels'

Well....i'm afraid you cannot have your cake AND eat it....as the saying goes.

Ying and yang and all that....get over it.

[Edited 2012-05-05 02:01:51]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4429 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 24):
What pic? Don't think it was me, but now I'm curious


This.

It's on your profile.

Love it.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2646 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 43):

Ah yes that. Had it on my hard drive for a while. Not mine though, used it on a Non-Av thread to illustrate a point.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7461 posts, RR: 17
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting jonnyclark (Thread starter):
So out of the news of the last few days, BA is killing off bmibaby in September and has cut 1,200 jobs from the acquisition of main line BMI

Very misleading. The facts show that exactly the opposite is true. BA have saved many bmi jobs and hope to save still more.

If you look at the LHR slot position for the Summer Season of 2009 (before the LH purchase of BD) and Summer Season 2012 as at 13 February 2012 (before the sale of BD to IAG) at

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33

you will see that Lufthansa Group had decimated the BD LHR slot holding between these dates. It was 1091 weekly slots as at the start of Summer 2009. By February of this year Lufthansa Group had reduced that holding by almost 58 per cent to only 461.

It requires no genius to see that if bmi Mainline was loosing money and had then had 58 per cent of the slots at their home hub removed by Lufthansa Group before they were sold to IAG then the damage had already been done. Clearly if anyone killed off BD it was Lufthansa Group. Note here that they not only increased their own slot holding at LHR by more than 91 per cent from 406 to 776 in the same period. They also increased the slot holding of LX by almost 117 per cent from 84 to 182 and handed 50 slots to SN.

How would it be possible for BA to even consider keeping on all BD's main line staff when Lufthansa Group had reduced bmi Mainline to little more than 40 per cent of its former operational size at LHR?

As for bmiBaby and bmi Regional, IAG did not want to buy either of them. But Lufthansa Group, having failed to sell them themselves, insisted that they were included in the deal. Let us just hope that IAG succeed where Lufthansa failed and manage to sell bmi Regional to Granite City Aviation and save another 800 jobs.

Of course the job losses at bmiBaby and those lost at bmi Mainline are very sad. But clearly the responsibility of all of these losses does not lie with either IAG or BA. Lufthansa Group have taken most of BD's slots. And be assured that the slots they have taken are not those with the least desirable timings.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4634 posts, RR: 23
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 45):
you will see that Lufthansa Group had decimated the BD LHR slot holding between these dates. It was 1091 weekly slots as at the start of Summer 2009. By February of this year Lufthansa Group had reduced that holding by almost 58 per cent to only 461.

Now that is probably the best post I have ever seen on this thread!

Well done! I didn't know any of this, so it is very interesting to see.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 45):
Of course the job losses at bmiBaby and those lost at bmi Mainline are very sad. But clearly the responsibility of all of these losses does not lie with either IAG or BA. Lufthansa Group have taken most of BD's slots. And be assured that the slots they have taken are not those with the least desirable timings.

Moreover, BA has now started a new route to ICN. This means that with every shorthaul slot pair that is transformed into a longhaul one, BA not only will save jobs but will create new ones for the cabin crews.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAAIL86 From Finland, joined Feb 2011, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 43):
This.

It's on your profile.

Love it.

Yes - that's excellent. Truly the classiest way one could cross the pond.

Back to topic - does anyone think there's some value in long term retention of the BD brand by BA as a short-to-medium haul subsidiary? Or should they just gut it as quickly as possible?



Next
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25125 posts, RR: 22
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 37):
Before anyone accuses me of paranoia, it's not as if BA doesn't have a three decade history of illegally trying to reduce competition within the industry.


*CARTEL: A cartel is a formal (explicit) agreement among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production.[1] Cartels usually occur in an oligopolistic industry, where there is a small number of sellers and usually involve homogeneous products. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.

Keep in mind that where antitrust immunity (or equivalent term in non-US legal systems) exists, such as the BA/AA, LH/UA, KL/DL/AF and dozens of other immunized agreements, those things are legal.


User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3156 times:
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Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 48):
Back to topic - does anyone think there's some value in long term retention of the BD brand by BA as a short-to-medium haul subsidiary? Or should they just gut it as quickly as possible?

None what ever bmi join the annals of various other waifs and strays collected by BA over the years

British Caledonian and Dan Air - Come autumn they are no more.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 50):
None what ever bmi join the annals of various other waifs and strays collected by BA over the years

British Caledonian and Dan Air - Come autumn they are no more.

I think 'salvaged' would be a better choice of word.....as like BD they were both wrecks.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3070 times:
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Quoting mikey72 (Reply 51):

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 50):
None what ever bmi join the annals of various other waifs and strays collected by BA over the years

British Caledonian and Dan Air - Come autumn they are no more.

I think 'salvaged' would be a better choice of word.....as like BD they were both wrecks.

Dan- Air were days from closure true , British Caledonian may have limped on.


User currently offlineLofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

What is interesting is BA have a very different Management and Leadership than they did at the time of Dan Air and British Caledonian but yet again have stepped in and saved jobs.

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