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Flybe Nordic To Enter Danish Domestic Market  
User currently offlinemd80forum From Finland, joined May 1999, 157 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6075 times:

After the bankruptcy of Danish Cimber Sterling (QI) - Flybe Nordic is reported to be ready to open five domestic routes CPH to Aalborg, Billund, Bornholm, Karup and Sønderborg.

Flybe Nordic, owned jointly by Flybe UK (BE) and Finnair (AY) already flies Copenhagen to Stockholm-Bromma. Surprisingly the Nordic regional airline also consistently offers it service to bitter Finnair rival SAS (SK)

Also London-based Sun-Air of Scandinavia announced that it will begin new routes

London to Stockholm and Oslo
Billund to Stockholm and Oslo
Aalborg to Oslo

http://11oceans.net/?p=2835

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2488 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting md80forum (Thread starter):
Also London-based Sun-Air of Scandinavia announced that it will begin new routes

London to Stockholm and Oslo
Billund to Stockholm and Oslo
Aalborg to Oslo

BA Citiflyer is already operating the London City to Stockholm route. But the LCY route will be cancelled as of June. Could Sun Air replace them on those routes?



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6004 times:

This is going to be a bloodbath just like when Sterling went bankrupt in 2008. 3-4 airlines coming in and fluing the routes of the failed carrier.

Quoting md80forum (Thread starter):
Also London-based Sun-Air of Scandinavia announced that it will begin new routes

Sun-air is based in Billund BLL



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineGSTBA From UK - England, joined Apr 2010, 465 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5993 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 1):
BA Citiflyer is already operating the London City to Stockholm route. But the LCY route will be cancelled as of June.

Only the LCY-CPH route will be cancelled from June.

BACF still intend to operate to ARN from LCY.

Do Sun-Air's D328's have the range to fly direct from LCY-ARN or OSL?

[Edited 2012-05-05 13:03:38]

User currently offlinelucce From Finland, joined Jun 2011, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

I wonder if they will hire crews based there. It would seem quite expensive to haul them from HEL. Do they have crews based in Sweden for the BMA routes?

It seems they are doing what they promised: opening more and more routes within Scandinavia. It's a shame though that they have a BOB service, the FC service seemed pretty good.


User currently offlinePelle From Denmark, joined Apr 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

One can only hope that FlyBE's entry to the Danish regional market will help to lower the fares, as back in the Cimber-Sterling days they were ridiculously high..


Upcoming flights: BLL-FRA-ATH, BLL-IST-SIN,
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting md80forum (Thread starter):
Also London-based Sun-Air of Scandinavia announced that it will begin new routes

London to Stockholm and Oslo
Billund to Stockholm and Oslo
Aalborg to Oslo

Sun Air already flies Aalborg-Oslo.
They fly LCY to Billund and Billund to Oslo and Bromma.

I don't see any new routes here, just new connections?


User currently offlinekevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

FlyBe will have a tough one here, particularly on CPH-AAL - this route cannot sustian three players IMO, and one of them with a huge frequency!

As for the other routes, well; there is a market, but it is limited - and unlike the Swedish and in particular Norwegian domestic market, the Danish market is heavily contested by rail and road, affecting yields and volume. The only routes that are not too affected by this is RNN and AAL - all other routes have a very viable rail or road alternative (so does RNN and AAL, but not to the same extend).

What QI did benefit from indeed - despite competing with SK - was connections into (SK) at CPH. I doubt that FlyBe will have the same options, with AY being an owner - or at least, SK will not be nice on the pro-rating of ticket revenue. On CPH-AAL, both DY and SK rely on connecting traffic - FlyBe will not be able to do this to the same extend.

/Kevin777  



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlinemd80forum From Finland, joined May 1999, 157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

Quoting kevin777 (Reply 7):
FlyBe will have a tough one here, particularly on CPH-AAL - this route cannot sustian three players IMO, and one of them with a huge frequency! [...] What QI did benefit from indeed - despite competing with SK - was connections into (SK) at CPH.

Kevin, what do you know about the available terminal space for a larger LCC base at CPH for, say, Flybe? I think I read somewhere that there is a rather new LCC terminal built, but rather little yet used by LCC's. Is that correct?


User currently offlinemd80forum From Finland, joined May 1999, 157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Danish paper Jyllandsposten reports that Flybe Nordic battles for the entire ex-Cimber domestic network, all 15 aircraft and the staff of 250.

http://11oceans.net/?p=2835 (link posted earlier, but updated since)


User currently offlinekevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting md80forum (Reply 8):


Kevin, what do you know about the available terminal space for a larger LCC base at CPH for, say, Flybe? I think I read somewhere that there is a rather new LCC terminal built, but rather little yet used by LCC's. Is that correct?

Hi md80forum,

Well, there is a new LCC "terminal" at CPH that is primarily (or more or less only now that I think of it) used by EZY. However, if you ask me it has nothing to do with a terminal, hence the "". It is merely a low-cost extension of the D1xx finger at CPH, nothing more - check-in, security, shops, luggage etc. is still shared with the "old" CPH; I would hardly call that a "terminal" - it's just a finger (in a far away corner). I have never used it, but I honestly have no urge to do so either. The ONLY reason this "terminal" was built was that CPH wanted to get the competition authorities, the Copenhagen mayor and others off their back (they wanted an alternative to CPH, using the same runways). So, CPH built the "alternative" themselves, and put heavy restrictions on, because they still wanted the customers in the "old" CPH - including no transfer traffic, and maximum 30 min turnaround time. There goes 1) SK, DY and most other major scheduled operators, and 2) charter airlines. Left is only EZY.

If FlyBe (or someone else) wants to start a major LCC base at CPH, I don't think it would be much of a problem capacity wise; CPH is generally not restricted. However, an airline like FlyBe could definitely not use the new LCC finger, because ( I assume) they would also go for connecting traffic. Moreover, the LCC finger is as far away as possible from the current domestic terminal (which today is technically just part of the non-Schengen areas, but still).

Best regards,

Kevin777  



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Does anybody know how Flybe Nordic is doing financially? Could be interesting to know since AY is going for a similar venture on European short-haul.

User currently offlineHarmonium From Denmark, joined Feb 2012, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting kevin777 (Reply 7):
FlyBe will have a tough one here, particularly on CPH-AAL - this route cannot sustian three players IMO, and one of them with a huge frequency!

I just don't get what you're saying. CPH-AAL is bigger than all other Danish domestic routes added together. There has for a long time been 3 players in this market, and from the looks of it, it's fine. CPH-AAL did not bring down QI. 737s and poor management did.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11617 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

It will be interesting to see how the markets respond to this if it becomes official. Investor confidence is pretty low in FlyBe right now, so will it boost or buffet them.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 11):
Does anybody know how Flybe Nordic is doing financially? Could be interesting to know since AY is going for a similar venture on European short-haul.

?? but Flybe Nordic is partly owned by Finnair, so they should know?


User currently offlinekevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Quoting Harmonium (Reply 12):
I just don't get what you're saying. CPH-AAL is bigger than all other Danish domestic routes added together. There has for a long time been 3 players in this market, and from the looks of it, it's fine

Yes, CPH-AAL is big, and has a little more than 1 mio. pax per year. And I will give you that it could sustain a third player under different circumstances - but not when DY and SK both have 7-8 daily departures in each direction; DY with 737's and SK with a mix of MD's, 321 and CRJ900 - a very quick calculation gives something like around 4.000 seats per day between CPH and AAL on a weekday, let's say around 100.000 per month. This is 1,2 mio. seats per year, and 1,0 mio. pax = average load factor of around 85%. Not bad - but I doubt that there is room for another player, also with current yields (you can often get walk-up fares at EUR 70-80 everything included). If FlyBe (or someone else) should enter, they should have at least 4-5 x daily, and I don't think there is space in the market for that.

So,in conclusion, yes, there could be three players under different circumstances (=with the current players offering lower capacity and frequency), but not as it is now.

One scenario though is that FlyBe does enter, and eventually SK and DY cut back a bit on their capacity - then three players could be sustained, definitely. This is also what has gradually happened for SK - IIRC they used to have +10 departures per day in each direction CPH-AAL when they were alone or close to (e.g.back when NB started with 3x daily) - now they are down to 7-8, "giving up" and giving space to DY.

Kevin777  



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineHarmonium From Denmark, joined Feb 2012, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting kevin777 (Reply 15):
So,in conclusion, yes, there could be three players under different circumstances (=with the current players offering lower capacity and frequency), but not as it is now.

I beg to differ. DY, SK and QI offered very different products. Adding DY capacity is just not the solution, I'm afraid. DY is point to point, and what is needed here is transfer-options for passengers going further than CPH. The current situation is not liable to AAL, and I bet you that they're working very hard to make sure that whoever gets in to be the third operator of CPH-AAL will have the possibility of doing transfers. I actually heard that FlyBe(What's their airline code again? BE gives you some kind of Ukrainian airline) are working on getting cooperation with SK to tag through bags, should FlyBe get to be the new operator of CPH-AAL.(Or more likely AAL-CPH)


User currently offlinekevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting Harmonium (Reply 16):
DY, SK and QI offered very different products

I don't know if they were that different.. at least not between QI and SK.. okay, different a/c, but.. difficult to make large product differentiation on a 45-min flight between the same two cities, airports and terminals

Quoting Harmonium (Reply 16):
DY is point to point, and what is needed here is transfer-options for passengers going further than CPH.

DY is primarily point-to-point, yes, and they don't interline with any other airlines at CPH (not to my knowledge anyway). However, they offer a lot of DY connections via CPH - and DY's network ex CPH is quite impressive these days. With 7x daily from AAL you can always find a departure ex AAL that doesn't give you too much transfer time at CPH.

Quoting Harmonium (Reply 16):
I bet you that they're working very hard to make sure that whoever gets in to be the third operator of CPH-AAL will have the possibility of doing transfers

Like SK and DY, a possible 3rd operator would have to offer transfers - and no just to themselves like DY (DY can do so because their network ex CPH is so good, FlyBe could never do the same on their own, they have to interline). I absolutely agree with you here. But SK would have to be a transfer option at CPH - and I'm just thinking, if I were SK, why not just take all that transfer traffic themselves? Put in larger a/c on AAL and take the business themselves, instead of letting someone else do it? And in any case, SK would hardly give any pro-rating bargains to a new operator. Surely, a new operator could do deals with airlines like OS, AF, TG (with all the hassle involved), but without SK it would not have the significant size needed.

Kevin777  



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
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