Artc From Mexico, joined Jan 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 25114 times:
I was watching some videos and came across with one that got the moment in which a Singapore Airlines B777 skids off the runway on landing. It happened last November.
It seems that the crew performed an autoland without advising ATC and another aircraft blocked the localizer signal or something. Fortunately nobody was seriously injured.
I hope it is not a repost.
I was on a KLM 737-700 from AMS to MUC that evening after the runway reopened, but there was a big backlog of delayed and diverted flights since one of the two runways had been closed most of the day. The KL flight I was on didn't have enough fuel to hold very long so we diverted to NUE for more fuel and finally arrived MUC about 2 hours late.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5538 posts, RR: 26 Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 24322 times:
Quoting redrooster3 (Reply 6): How do they get the aircraft out of there? With it's own power? Or a tow truck.
In most cases, it´s a nightmare. It requires jacks, airbags, or both. And then it is usually towed. In this case, though, the plane taxied back onto the runway on its own power without the passengers. It really depends on wether or not the gear gets stuck and how deep.
IanatSTN From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 577 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 23703 times:
Quoting as739x (Reply 5): I've never encountered the crew having to notify ATC they were doing an Autoland. If IFR conditions persist, then a/c are to stay out of the IFR save boundary.
In my company, Low Visibility Procedures must be in force in order to conduct a Cat II/III approach. If they are not then you cannot garentee the ILS protected area is clear of obstacles/other aircraft etc. Just because its cloudy doesnt mean that LVPs are in use, certain weather minima are usually have to be breached.
flyingzacko From Germany, joined May 2005, 583 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 23647 times:
Quoting IanatSTN (Reply 11): In my company, Low Visibility Procedures must be in force in order to conduct a Cat II/III approach. If they are not then you cannot garentee the ILS protected area is clear of obstacles/other aircraft etc. Just because its cloudy doesnt mean that LVPs are in use, certain weather minima are usually have to be breached.
It is the same way at my company. LVP have to be in force from the airport's side before performing any CAT II/III approach. And then, aircraft would be advised to hold short of the CAT II/III stopbars before the runway, so the sensitive area remains clear.
Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5538 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 23396 times:
The GBA reported that on approach the crew decided to perform a fully automatic landing onto runway 08R when the weather conditions were below the limits that permitted the the first officer, pilot flying to do the landing.
The captain became pilot flying, the first officer became pilot monitoring. The airport was operating according to CAT I standards.
At 2 nm before touch down a regional jet began its takeoff run on runway 08R. Winds were from 130 degrees at 7 knots. When the SQ flight crossed the runway threshold, the regional jet was climbing out short of the runway end.
At the time of touchdown of the SQ flight the regional jet was climbing out past the runway end.
When the SQ flight reached 30 feet AGL, the aircraft began to roll left, landed, and the autopilot changed into roll out mode. The aircraft kept moving towards the left edge of the runway and crossed it. Rudder inputs by the PF disengaged the autopilot
The aircraft then rolled in a slight right turn over grass for about 400 meters, before it crossed the runway edge again onto the runway and crossed the runway reaching the right runway edge and exiting said runway.. The aircraft came to a stop on grass off the runway.
The GBA says the captain tried to go-around when the aircraft began to roll left. He pressed the TOGA button, but the aircraft did not respond. He then retracted the spoilers that had automatically extended. Strange, because it does not seem in the video that the spoilers ever activated.
The GBA reports the aircraft began to roll left in response to autopilot inputs to minimize the localizer deviation and reached 3.5 degrees bank angle to the left when the autopilot changed to roll out.
Very contradictory to the captain´s statements is the fact that there were no indications of the TOGA button pushed on the FDR.
So. Not my intention to second guess this crew´s landing attempt but it does not seem that there was an autopilot/ILS issue per se.
BA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21741 times:
We dont know the whole story, but perhaps a rushed approach and late change between PF and PNF roles? Surely if in any doubt, disconnect and fly the plane manually and go around if necessary and come in again.
GearDownFlaps30 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2010, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20318 times:
SIA: Good'day Sharon, how are you? We'd like to order a set of main tires and carbon brakes for a 777-300ER please.
Boeing: Hello Tan, fine and you? No problem, I'll have that shipped to you ASAP.
SIA: Great Sharon, thank you. Err... could you please add 2 clean white undies for the cockpit crew as well?
Boeing: Sure Tan, BTW we also have them in brown color so you won't need to order new ones next time.
GearDownFlaps30 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2010, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 19681 times:
Joking aside, this must have been a terribly freaking experience for everybody onboard, seeing your plane skidding from left to right, not knowing how it's gonna end. It's not like a car you can (try) countersteer when it skids... I guess when it was clear the crew couldn't TOGA they understood they "just" had to wait the the drama to come to an end.
AirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 670 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13397 times:
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21): If anyone is interested in the facts, rather than speculating, the initial report (factual, no analysis yet) from the German Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung is here
But it does not! The FDR says nothing TOGA related was going on, CVR however does indicate sounds similar to pressing TOGA. A quote from the report:
Quote: The FDR did not show any indications for the initiation of a go-around procedure. However, the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) recorded at the time of the touch down the PIC's command "ok, flaps 20" together with several sounds which indicate the clicking of the TOGA lever and the movement of the speedbrake handle.
Another interesting part of the report is that the autopilot apparently made the initial bank and turn:
Quote: The airplane began to roll to the left and at 11:09:16 UTC reached a maximum bank angle of 3.5° when it touched down with its left main landing gear. At the time the autopilot was still engaged; the approach mode changed into rollout mode. Because the autopilot generated control inputs to minimise the lateral beam deviation the airplane turned left
Can the experts on this forum tell me why this could potentially be the case? Are there external factors that could lead into this? Could the pilots have caused this? Or is this an autopilot malfunction?
Finally, why is the report focusing on the other aircraft leaving the runway? Is tehre some possibility that it has distracted either the autopilot, the regular pilots, or some navigational aids?
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3839 posts, RR: 73 Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12359 times:
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 23): Another interesting part of the report is that the autopilot apparently made the initial bank and turn:
Yes, they were executing an automatic landing : "During the approach briefing the crew had decided to perform an automatic approach and landing".
...and the aircraft was under A/P control.
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 23): why is the report focusing on the other aircraft leaving the runway? Is there some possibility that it has distracted either the autopilot, the regular pilots, or some navigational aids?
Any metallic obstacle on or close to the axis of the localiser beamcould warp it, that's why it is important to know whether the AVRO did, in fact disturb the localiser antennas' pattern. Apparently not as it was on the other side of the Loc when the T7 landed.(That's why Cat 2 and 3 protections make sure that holding airplanes are nowhere close to the runway during LVP )
There are a few questions to be asked on this incident :
1/- Where came the Loc signal disturbance from ?
2/- It seems to me that the switch over to the "Roll out" mode from the "Approach" mode was a bit quick : what are the required conditions : only one gear contact doesn't sound right to me.
3/- The DFDR doesn't show any"Go Around" selection, but the Captain said it did and the CVR recorded the call for a reduced flap setting (part of the manoeuvre ). So what in reality did happen ?
25 rfields5421: So the locaizer interference was from a departing aircraft, not from an aircraft crossing the CATII/III hold lines? There is at least a 20-30 second
26 PanAm1971: That is some tough landing gear! Is this possibly a symptom of over reliance on autoland?
27 sandyb123: Having now read the report in full, I have a few questions... This information is contradictory, the captain with PIC and PF so who was he telling in
28 zkojq: Its actually quite frightening to see such a large, powerful aircraft skidding down the runway, out of control. According to the BFU report, the co-pi
29 Pihero: Not quite, the report specifically says : "However, the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) recorded at the time of the touch down the PIC's command "ok, fl
30 flylku: My initial thought also. I'm sure Boeing never flew the 777 in and out of grass strips during the certification process. Actually, it is the transiti
31 tp1040: What kind of damage would the plane have.? I would imagine a lot of stress on the landing gear.
32 flightsimer: It was only 3.5 degrees at the max. At 30ft it was only another 3-4 sec until touchdown. The roll happened so slow and shallow that he probably figur
33 tdscanuck: This is the normal autopilot response to being right of the localizer beam (presumably because the localizer beam bent to the left). In the air, the
34 Viscount724: The ground was very firm. Based on photos the wheels barely sunk into the grass.
35 Kaiarahi: My mistake - reading too quickly! I was looking at the CVR printout.
36 N14AZ: I remember the time last year when this incident happened. We didn't have any rains in November for some days (even weeks). You can see this from the
37 sandyb123: I am no commercial pilot, let alone a wide body pilot. My aircraft would fit through the door of a 777 , but.... Even at 3.5% bank angle the aircraft
38 Pihero: OK ; Please enlighten us on what 's happening to the airplane at the threshold . What mode does the "ROLL OUT" replace, and is it still dependent on
39 tdscanuck: It's used on crosswind, yes, but no training program I know of advises using it to "kick out" final orientation at touchdown unless you're taking out
40 Artc: That is something I really think about. I am an ATC, and private pilot, not really experienced with heavier of fully automated aircraft. I don't real
41 Pihero: In this case, I'd assume that with that ROLLOUT indication on the FMA, Go Around is locked out as you're now in a "ground" mode. and the captain's at
42 mandala499: LOL! never thought of it that way! (But then, would dual input be announced when both pilots make rudder inputs on the bus FBW?) Go-Around guidance n
43 tdscanuck: The mode isn't exactly locked out but it won't do the transition from ROLLOUT to TO/GA without an extra step...cycle the flight directors. ROLLOUT co
44 Pihero: Main argument of those who claim the superiority of "visual and tactile feedback" on moving flight controls : PM sees everything,; understands everyt
45 tdscanuck: If the PM takes control without telling the PF I'm not sure how that's an indictment of the control inceptor philosophy; no airliner is ever designed
46 mandala499: AP-L immediately went to ground mode 11:09:16 (when 1st wheel touched) AP-C went to ground mode at 11:09:20 AP-R went to ground mode at 11:09:18 AP R
47 tdscanuck: There's an unwritten caveat there that falls out of where this text is located in the FCOM..."the TO/GA switches are inhibited when on the ground *af
48 Pihero: We're in total agreement. But if PM had been really comfy knowing - and seeing - what PF was doing, he would never have interfered... and you remembe
49 litz: Interesting ... so its entirely possible they hit the TOGA switch and it simply didn't do anything?
50 Kaiarahi: The CVR said they did, and the FDR said nothing happened.
51 tdscanuck: Not only possible, that's what's supposed to happen (and what the flight crew are trained will happen). Tom.
52 CosmicCruiser: Don't confuse an auto land and a CATII/III app. You can make an auto land any time you wish (assuming co. policy allows) regardless of RVR. We do it