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Mia Tap Portugal Flight Thrives  
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7707 times:

Just read an article from the Miami Today that claims that Miami's Tap Portugal flight is averaging 70-80% in just a few months. Mr. Mangos is qouted as saying that he wishes the flight will go daily soon. I wonder what everyone thinks of this development cosnidering that KL and UX failed with their routes.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7683 times:

There was a thread about it not long ago! I've never heard anyone from TP management saying that they wish the route would go daily! As it's only 3xWeekly in the Winter, then 4xWeekly in the Summer(5xWeekly at the peak of the summer, for 8 weeks only) Loads have been strong but most seats been sold to travel agents(usually low yields) and I can get a return from London to Miami with TP for about £375, so profibility of the flight is doubtfull, but I guess time will tell!

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2916 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

Quoting santos (Reply 1):
Loads have been strong but most seats been sold to travel agents(usually low yields) and I can get a return from London to Miami with TP for about £375, so profibility of the flight is doubtfull, but I guess time will tell!

So true. Don't be blinded by the headline LF% and assume thst it equals profit. Happens far too often, and then people are surprised when a flight is cut.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7524 times:

I guess that's what kills most flights out of MIA just the bad yields. That's what kiiled the AMS flight with KL just bad yields. However I know that miami has strong buisness and financial ties to Portugal, so I assume this would bring premuim demand to the route. Obviously TP studied the Miami market before just jumping on it without thinking it through.

[Edited 2012-05-06 01:02:12]

User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
averaging 70-80% in just a few months.

That's it? Just 70-80%? KL operated the flight at 90+% LF, and still could not make it work due to bad yields.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7274 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 3):
However I know that miami has strong buisness and financial ties to Portugal, so I assume this would bring premuim demand to the route.

Which are?

If the state of the national economy of Portugal and the local economy of Florida are any indication, ''business traffic'' on this route should be dismal. Matter of fact, I'm not even sure the O&D of this flight in general is above 50%. As pointed out by Santos, TAP sells a ton of cheap seats to international customers and seems to rely quite a bit on transit passengers.

Seems to me like a desperate attempt at filling their LIS feeder flights (look at the number of intra European flights TP axed recently) and minimizing their losses at any cost. KL doesn't need to do that; they can utilize the freed up heavy from the MIA flight to a more profitable route and reserve the seats on their feeder flights for the more profitable clientel.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently onlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7223 times:

Quoting something (Reply 5):
look at the number of intra European flights TP axed recently

Wich european routes have been axed recently?(apart from ATH) TP has actually announced 6 new european routes last year and 3 so far this year.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 3):
owever I know that miami has strong buisness and financial ties to Portugal
Quoting something (Reply 5):
Which are?

I guess he's trying to say hat Espirito Santo Financial Group has it's headquarters there! Premium demand?

I guess what TP might have in advantage is by probably having the shortest transatlantic flight and lower operating costs than KL


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8280 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6964 times:
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TAP makes money in Miami because they use smaller plane then KLM( TAP A332 & KLM MD11).

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
Mr. Mangos is qouted as saying that he wishes the flight will go daily soon.

Anytime an airline launches less than daily service, they always "wish" the route eventually goes daily. This is not news worthy.

TAP will not last in the MIA market. There was a rush of European carriers to serve the MIA market in an attempt to show growth in their networks. The MIA market cannot absorb this rush of capacity during a weak economic environment on both sides of the ocean. Based on the low airfares one can book on TAP from MIA (which is the only way they are able to fill seats on the plane), the yields must be poor as is the long term prospect of TAP in MIA.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

I wonder why the yields are so bad out of MIA? Aeroflot is said to start the MIA route in October I just wonder if they will face the same fate as TP and KL. Its funny airlines like BA, LH, AF, VS, AZ, IB, and LX can all make MIA work even with low yields.

[Edited 2012-05-06 10:34:56]

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8280 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6427 times:
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Quoting miaintl (Reply 9):
I wonder why the yields are so bad out of MIA? Aeroflot is said to start the MIA route in October I just wonder if they will face the same fate as TP and KL. Its funny airlines like BA, LH, AF, VS, AZ, IB, and LX can all make MIA work even with low yields.

Aeroflot is bringing Russians to Miami to spend their money, those new rich have lots of $$$. They go to the Bal Harbor shopping center and ask any one working there how much the Russians pay cash. Bal Harbor is the highest grossing mall per square foot in the USA. All high end designers.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6376 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

Does that mean that Aeroflot will bring high yields and premium traffic on the MIA route? Still, no one seems to answer why other traditional Euro carriers can make MIA work even with it being a low-yield market. By the way I heard KL is coming back to MIA for the winter months.

[Edited 2012-05-06 11:23:32]

User currently onlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 9):
Aeroflot is said to start the MIA route in October I just wonder if they will face the same fate as TP and KL

What do you mean by that?
TP still have year round service, KL is seasonal(winter only)


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6279 times:

KL's service to MIA has never been seasonal.. Erratic yes, seasonal no.

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 8):
The MIA market cannot absorb this rush of capacity during a weak economic environment on both sides of the ocean.

Add to that the fact that Portugal's and Florida's economies are particularly dire. The Euro - Dollar exchange rate is also less than favorable, making destinations in the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf or South-East Asia just that much more interesting.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 9):
Aeroflot is said to start the MIA route in October I just wonder if they will face the same fate as TP and KL.

Moscow alone has more people than the entire country of Portugal. There is also fast economic growth and quite a lot of wealth (thought admittedly, spread over a relatively small percentage of the population). And you can also bet that Aeroflot's operating costs are quite a bit lower than TAP's. Have fun with the Russians. You can have 'em all  



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineZaphodB From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
ask any one working there how much the Russians pay cash

but do those Russians even fly commercial? ... or still live in Russia - as opposed to say Knightsbridge or New York?

Regardless I don't see Aeroflot struggling in this market ... you can't walk 10 paces in Aventura or Sunny Isles without hearing Russian spoken.

As for TAP ... good luck to any EU carrier that doesn't fill their planes with cruise line passengers like BA does.


User currently offlineZaphodB From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting something (Reply 14):
Add to that the fact that Portugal's and Florida's economies are particularly dire

I'm not going to comment on Portugal but So. Fla is a curiously mixed bag in that regard. As someone who lives and works in M-D county I feel free to say that while 80% of it is horribly third-worldy with a serious structural unemployment problem and bad schools (probably no coincidence) the other 20% is doing just fine and guess which group it is that shows up at airports?

It always amuses me how much Miami gets talked up and down on this board. One camp (and one individual in particular) trumpets it as the high yielding center of the universe while others see a dangerous shanty town with a nice beach. I'd say the first camp probably have a massively underwater Brickell condo they're trying to sell and the other group probably haven't been here.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32603 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 4):
Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
averaging 70-80% in just a few months.

That's it? Just 70-80%? KL operated the flight at 90+% LF, and still could not make it work due to bad yields.


KLM continues to serve to Miami seasonal. It actually achieved a very high average one way fare in excess of $850 this last winter. MIAAMS is a traditionally low yield market, so I found that to be very surprising.

Further, MIA is not a traditional low yield market. If it were, so many European carriers would not serve it. The only place where yields are really trash is to Scandanavia, hence the lack of service despite a huge local market. But Norweigan will come to fill that gap.

TAP has been doing quite well - good average fares in the local MIALIS sector boosted by the good premium demand thanks to banks like Espirito Santo. Word is service will increase next winter, thanks to frames freed up from the LISVCP suspension. It will have a healthy future in Florida. It's probably the strongest of the recent new Miami-Europe launches. And, obviously, TAO stimulated the market tremendously. MIALIS local market doubled between JUL11 and DEC11 compared to the same period last year. It's around 50 PDEW now when annualized, and growing.

[Edited 2012-05-06 12:56:48]


a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Does anyone here see the Aeroflot service going daily? I know there are alot of Russians in Miami Beach, but are they high-yielding? I'm also curious as how all the other EU carriers cans till pull a profit at MIA, even with the poor yields and bad economy.

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Further, MIA is not a traditional low yield market. If it were, so many European carriers would not serve it.

A lot of European carriers also serve MCO and I would not call that a high yielding market either. The number of carriers serving a market is not directly correlated to yields. Yields are only on half of the profitability equation.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
MIALIS local market doubled between JUL11 and DEC11 compared to the same period last year. It's around 50 PDEW now when annualized, and growing.

Absolutely. Low fares stimulate market demand.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 19):

You cannot compare the Euro line-up at MIa with that of MCO, they are worlds apart.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 16):
It always amuses me how much Miami gets talked up and down on this board. One camp (and one individual in particular) trumpets it as the high yielding center of the universe while others see a dangerous shanty town with a nice beach. I'd say the first camp probably have a massively underwater Brickell condo they're trying to sell and the other group probably haven't been here.

Yep, I live here too and was told by "that camp" that the economy is wonderful here. It isn't anywhere near where it was back in the mid 2000s.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 20):
You cannot compare the Euro line-up at MIa with that of MCO, they are worlds apart.

Completely agree. However, my point was that the number of carriers an airport has is no indication of yield, and I used MCO as a case in point. LAS is another good example. Both airports see a lot of foreign service, but yields are not the best. That is why I mentioned that yields are only one half of the profitability equation. People focus so much on yield, but pay hardly any attention to cost. Both are important.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

Mia is higher yielding market than either LAS and MCO so the comparison is again not valid. Miami is a major financial center and not just a tourist spot.

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Funny. I have you figured out.

User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):

*sigh* One second your questioning MIA's yield ability for European carriers then you say its a major financial center. Make up your mind... While there are quite a few banks with large offices here it isn't so much to go crazy about. Although I know this flight should do pretty well because of business traffic from Espirito Santo.

Quoting EricR (Reply 8):

Well, We know KL is going seasonal, Corsair is in financial trouble yet still stays, Transaero is doing well but I expect that to change after Aeroflot comes in, haven't heard much about Arkefly, and AB is doing pretty well. So if any carriers are to stop MIA be because of over capacity it wouldn't be TP because of the almost guaranteed business passengers from Espirito Santo but rather Transaero (because of competition from Aeroflot) or Corsair (financial trouble).

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):

I won't argue that the yields are higher, but the main reason is that it is more of a high end tourist destination and it is a minor, but still substantial business center (it's the US headquarters for many Latin companies). But the amount of business passengers pales in comparison to the amount of tourists. Both numbers are substantial in their own right, but cannot be compared side by side.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 18):
Does anyone here see the Aeroflot service going daily? I know there are alot of Russians in Miami Beach, but are they high-yielding? I'm also curious as how all the other EU carriers cans till pull a profit at MIA, even with the poor yields and bad economy.


You said this,
then you said this:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):
Mia is higher yielding market than either LAS and MCO so the comparison is again not valid. Miami is a major financial center and not just a tourist spot.


  I agree with your second statement. You are obsessed with yields something which is not public information and just a guessing game. Yields are also dependent on the destination too not just a whole continent.

Quoting EricR (Reply 19):
A lot of European carriers also serve MCO and I would not call that a high yielding market either.


5 Euro airlines go to MCO soon to be 4. MIA has 12 soon to be 13.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 21):
Yep, I live here too and was told by "that camp" that the economy is wonderful here. It isn't anywhere near where it was back in the mid 2000s.


95% of the country is not where it was in the mid 2000s. The economy is getting better in Miami.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32603 posts, RR: 72
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 19):
A lot of European carriers also serve MCO and I would not call that a high yielding market either. The number of carriers serving a market is not directly correlated to yields. Yields are only on half of the profitability equation.

What large number of European carriers fly to MCO? How is five (soon to be four) a large number? I never said that there is a direct correlation, but when an airport is served by more Euro carriers this side of the Atlantic outside of JFK, then there isn't a yield problem.

Quoting EricR (Reply 19):
Absolutely. Low fares stimulate market demand.

Yet the average fare in MISLIS is up ~20% since TAP entered. So not only is traffic up ~94%, people are paying more to get here. Low fares do stimulate, but non-stop flights also stimulate, and people tend to pay a premium for a non-stop flight.

Quoting jonathanxxxx,reply=25While there are quite a few banks with large offices here it isn't so much to go crazy about.:

Nothing to go crazy about, but the strong presence of European banks in South Florida is absolutely important in helping fill premium cabins between Europe and MIA. Miami-Zurich is a very premium heavy market, and you can bet banks play a huge role in that.



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 25):

Thanks for the clarification. Do you mind if I ask what your prediction for the aeroflot service to MIA will be? Do you think it will attract high yield passengers?


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting santos (Reply 1):
There was a thread about it not long ago! I've never heard anyone from TP management saying that they wish the route would go daily!

They haven't, mostly because they don't have available equipment, but they have stated time and time again how please they are with the performance of the route. Remember, they took a plane out of JNB to operate MIA. JNB was a proven destination for TP, albeit not very high yield.

Quoting EricR (Reply 8):
TAP will not last in the MIA market. There was a rush of European carriers to serve the MIA market in an attempt to show growth in their networks. The MIA market cannot absorb this rush of capacity during a weak economic environment on both sides of the ocean. Based on the low airfares one can book on TAP from MIA (which is the only way they are able to fill seats on the plane),

And yet, in less than 2 years they've gone from 3x ,to 4x to 5x weekly in the Summer, and they continue to tweek the schedule and state the route is performing very well.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
TAP makes money in Miami because they use smaller plane then KLM( TAP A332 & KLM MD11).

I can only guess why TP can make it work but KL can't. The A332 is indeed cheaper to operate than the MD11. LIS is also a significantly shorter route than AMS. And to travel between MIA and Europe does not require any backtracking whatsoever if you use LIS. That is especially significant if my destination/origin is in Spain or Portugal. Portugal has its own O&D market to Florida. My guess is that KL and TP have significant enough markets that puts KL at a disadvantage. From the rest of Europe KL is competing not only against all major carriers (LH, AF, BA, IB, etc), but also against charter carriers from their home market. Also of relevance is that KL is not a standalone airline, they are part of KL/AF and AF already serves MIA. TP only has IB to contend with for direct competition and MIA is the best place for TP to offer connections to Central America because their only other destination in North/Central America is EWR.

Quoting something (Reply 14):
Add to that the fact that Portugal's and Florida's economies are particularly dire.

You should try living in Portugal. Don't confuse the state economy with that of the private sector. What you hear in the news refers mostly to the public sector.

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 15):
As for TAP ... good luck to any EU carrier that doesn't fill their planes with cruise line passengers like BA does.

Lisbon is by itself a significant cruise port, and the second largest deep water commercial port in Europe. The booming cruise industry there is one of the reasons EK is starting service to LIS. In the first 3 months of this year it grew 52% compared to last year.


User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):
Mia is higher yielding market than either LAS and MCO so the comparison is again not valid. Miami is a major financial center and not just a tourist spot.

In the U.S., Miami is not even a top 5 financial center. It trails Boston, NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Washington, D.C.and I believe New Jersey as well.

The point he is trying to make is that European carriers fly to MCO despite bad yields.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 30):

Miami is a large international financial center, especially for Latin America which Portugal has direct ties to of course.

Yes five soon to be four European airlines fly to MCO. Two of them BA and VS with their high density planes. You don't see with with BA and VS in MIA. Is MIA JFK? No, but MIA certainly has better premium traffic than MCO. Much better.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8280 posts, RR: 7
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2765 times:
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Quoting miaintl (Reply 11):
Does that mean that Aeroflot will bring high yields and premium traffic on the MIA route? Still, no one seems to answer why other traditional Euro carriers can make MIA work even with it being a low-yield market. By the way I heard KL is coming back to MIA for the winter months.

Russia to Miami is diferent then Europe to Mami, The Russians airlines carry their own people mostly not a lot of different connecting passengers like LH and BA.

Transaero has been flying nonstop to Miami with 744 and 777 for a few years 2 or 3 times weekly. There is a market from Moscow to Miami, a limited one but arge enough for 1000 people a week nonstop.


User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 31):

Miami is a large international financial center, especially for Latin America which Portugal has direct ties to of course.

Yes five soon to be four European airlines fly to MCO. Two of them BA and VS with their high density planes. You don't see with with BA and VS in MIA. Is MIA JFK? No, but MIA certainly has better premium traffic than MCO. Much better.

I am going to guess you don't understand the point trying to be made very well. No one is saying MIA does not produce good yields to Europe. One poster said that MIA produces good yields, why else would European carriers fly there. Another poster then said that Orlando, with poor yields, still has multiple European carriers flying there.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8280 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2768 times:
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Quoting miaintl (Reply 11):
Does that mean that Aeroflot will bring high yields and premium traffic on the MIA route? Still, no one seems to answer why other traditional Euro carriers can make MIA work even with it being a low-yield market. By the way I heard KL is coming back to MIA for the winter months.

Russia to Miami is diferent then Europe to Mami, The Russians airlines carry their own people mostly not a lot of different connecting passengers like LH and BA.

Transaero has been flying nonstop to Miami with 744 and 777 for a few years 2 or 3 times weekly. There is a market from Moscow to Miami, a limited one but arge enough for 1000 people a week nonstop.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 31):
Miami is a large international financial center, especially for Latin America which Portugal has direct ties to of course.

Portugal has nearly zero commercial or social ties with Latin America save a large immigrant population in Venzuela and a few manufacturing plants in Mexico.
Portugal does have big ties with Brazil and Brazilian business presence has been growing in S.Florida so it's plausible that a Portugal-Brazil-Florida business triangle may have developed. LIS is also a convenient connection point for all of Spain. However there are significant business and social ties between Portugal and Florida and that is what this flight caters to primarily. For example, I was surprised to find out that demand for this route is consistent throughout the year and without the seasonality swings of the typical TATL market.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
95% of the country is not where it was in the mid 2000s. The economy is getting better in Miami.

If it is getting better, it is at a snails pace. But my comment about the "other camp" was their claim that Miami is booming - it is not.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
What large number of European carriers fly to MCO? How is five (soon to be four) a large number?

Well..... considering that there are not that many European airlines left... five is a significant number.  


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
Portugal does have big ties with Brazil and Brazilian business presence has been growing in S.Florida so it's plausible that a Portugal-Brazil-Florida business triangle may have developed.

Brazil is part of Latin America, at least the physical location can't be debated. That is what I meant. So exactly Miami-Brazil commerce is huge.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 33):
I am going to guess you don't understand the point trying to be made very well. No one is saying MIA does not produce good yields to Europe. One poster said that MIA produces good yields, why else would European carriers fly there. Another poster then said that Orlando, with poor yields, still has multiple European carriers flying there.

Yes, I understand that. I am just saying obviously Miami has a better preimum demand compared to MCO when you look at the equitment the airlines that fly between the two cities send and the larger amount of airlines going to MIA.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32603 posts, RR: 72
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 36):
If it is getting better, it is at a snails pace. But my comment about the "other camp" was their claim that Miami is booming - it is not.

Some areas ate weak, others are poor. Maimi's strong ties to Latin America have kept white collar work strong, especially the legal sector and private wealth management. Tourism is the best it's ever been, and the retail industry is arguably the best in the nation with the country's best vacancy rate. Condos are finally full, but prices still collapsed. But unemployment is high and middle class paying jobs are hard to come by and aren't being created. While you like to claim others paint a far better picture, you continually attempt paint a far worse picture. Miami has it pretty okay right now, thanks to the fact that Latin America is exploding and Asian investors have a new found love for construction in Miami.



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 32):

So basically Transaero and Aeroflot cater to ethnic traffic.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
Yet the average fare in MISLIS is up ~20% since TAP entered. So not only is traffic up ~94%, people are paying more to get here. Low fares do stimulate, but non-stop flights also stimulate, and people tend to pay a premium for a non-stop flight.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
And yet, in less than 2 years they've gone from 3x ,to 4x to 5x weekly in the Summer, and they continue to tweek the schedule and state the route is performing very well.

You all may be correct. Time will certainly tell. However, I am one who is of the belief that the MIA-Europe market is "TAP"ped out (sorry, too good to pass up), and I think TAP will be the first to bow out.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 40):

You mean that the MIA-Europe market has fulfilled its maximum capacity? I too believe this which is why it is interesting to see what will happen to TP and SU, but i have high hopes for them, at least SU.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2219 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Condos are finally full, but prices still collapsed.

Oh come on.... either you don't spend time here or you know that is not correct. I've pointed out the huge mega condo buildings in downtown Miami that are still empty.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Miami has it pretty okay right now, thanks to the fact that Latin America is exploding and Asian investors have a new found love for construction in Miami.

Huh? What construction????

Every time one of these topics comes up somehow you end up posting that things are far better in Miami than they actually are. You sound like the Miami Chamber of Commerce - though I don't think even they would paint such a picture as you do.


User currently offlineZaphodB From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
I've pointed out the huge mega condo buildings in downtown Miami that are still empty.

And so they should be. Who the hell wants to live a stone's throw from Overtown?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2137 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
Oh come on.... either you don't spend time here or you know that is not correct. I've pointed out the huge mega condo buildings in downtown Miami that are still empty.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/0...acancy-in-miamis-condo-canyon.html
http://miamidda.com/occupancy_report_Dec2011.asp

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
Huh? What construction????
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflor...swires-brickell-citicentre-to.html

Quoting EricR (Reply 40):
You all may be correct. Time will certainly tell.

That is the only thing that is certain. I would be interesting to see if a stronger AA or a AA+US would try out some more MIA-Euro.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3117 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting something (Reply 5):
If the state of the national economy of Portugal and the local economy of Florida are any indication, ''business traffic'' on this route should be dismal. Matter of fact, I'm not even sure the O&D of this flight in general is above 50%. As pointed out by Santos, TAP sells a ton of cheap seats to international customers and seems to rely quite a bit on transit passengers.

Seems to me like a desperate attempt at filling their LIS feeder flights (look at the number of intra European flights TP axed recently) and minimizing their losses at any cost. KL doesn't need to do that; they can utilize the freed up heavy from the MIA flight to a more profitable route and reserve the seats on their feeder flights for the more profitable clientel

I apologize if this was said already, as I admit I scanned about half the replies so far, but doesn't TP connect passengers through it's LIS hub to some pretty high yielding African destinations with little competition. This would be an example of a route where O/D is not making the route, but the higher yielding destinations going via LIS could make it work. I doubt TP is trying to compete for LON-MIA passengers for example, as much as say, LAD-MIA.



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User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32603 posts, RR: 72
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 40):
You all may be correct. Time will certainly tell. However, I am one who is of the belief that the MIA-Europe market is "TAP"ped out (sorry, too good to pass up), and I think TAP will be the first to bow out.

The market has been pretty under-served in terms of capacity for the past decade; airlines started putting a lot more capacity recently to fill in that backend. The viability of these services is more based on how rocky Europe's economy get, because if it keeps getting bad, Europeans are going to stop travelling. Assuming that European travel upholds, so will the carriers, IMO.


It's drastically overestimated how much capacity has "grown." For example, Alitalia might have ten weekly flights to Miami this summer, but it's less capacity than the daily MD11 in 2002. KLM's added five weekly flights are near-negated by Air France shrinking to six weekly flights and the 77W from the 744. And Iberia still has less seats to Miami today than it did a decade ago, as does Swiss. Air France was double daily in 2000. It is now daily, and 6w during the winter. American hasn't grown in Miami-Europe, period. There has been a dramatic increase in non-stop destinations and frequency, but capacity is close to flat.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
I've pointed out the huge mega condo buildings in downtown Miami that are still empty.

And you are wrong. 100% wrong. Is it that hard to pick up a copy of The Herald?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/0...acancy-in-miamis-condo-canyon.html
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...buyers-heat-up-miamis-condo-market

After the condos sat empty and they started being rented out to young professionals and bought by foreigners, they started filling briskly and quickly. And while rents were initially rock bottom, demand has sent rents soaring, although still very affordable for a large urban area.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
Huh? What construction????

Have you not heard of Met 3? Or Brickell Citicentre? Or 23 Biscayne? Or Resorts World Miami? Or One Bayfront Plaza? The first two already have begun staging; the second two will break ground by year's end; the last is a mega-project by Florida East Coast Railroad that should break ground in 2014. These are largely mixed-used ventures with significant resort/hotel and retail components (and casinos if the developers can clear that hurdle). It is a very different type of new building boom fueled largely by Asian investment, and not unique to Miami.



a.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 46):
And you are wrong. 100% wrong. Is it that hard to pick up a copy of The Herald?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/0...acancy-in-miamis-condo-canyon.html
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...buyers-heat-up-miamis-condo-market

After the condos sat empty and they started being rented out to young professionals and bought by foreigners, they started filling briskly and quickly. And while rents were initially rock bottom, demand has sent rents soaring, although still very affordable for a large urban area.

Nope, I just drive by there several nights a week.... perhaps all those residents are using candles, because those buildings are all pretty dark.


User currently offlinetp777 From Portugal, joined Oct 2005, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
Portugal has nearly zero commercial or social ties with Latin America save a large immigrant population in Venzuela and a few manufacturing plants in Mexico.

That´s not exactly correct, Portugal as a vast number of companies with comercial ties and investments in Latin America, for example Portugal is the world´s biggest producer of cork, and Chile is a big wine producer, and i know for a fact that we produce and export the cork´s for their bottles, and also have some factories settled there.

You can fin more information here(only in portuguese):

http://www.casamericalatina.pt/gca/?id=208

I guess that Miami can be an hub were protuguese business man can access south america, and south america business man can connect thru MIA to access LIS and TP African network.

Regards



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