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SIN-KUL, Capacity Of SQ A333 Really Required?  
User currently offlineLAX888 From Singapore, joined Oct 2010, 279 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12303 times:

Hi all

I have a question regarding the route SIN-KUL v.v. Currently MH, SQ, MI, AK, JQ and Tiger Airways fly the route to KUL and FY to SZB. Therefore there are a ton of flights a day between these two cities.
MH, SQ and MI have a code-share agreement and SQ has transferred a lot of flights to MI in the last few years. However they still keep 3-4 flights themselves which I find odd, as usually either SQ or MI operate the flights to a destination and there is no mix except for one destination in India if I remember correctly.

Is there really enough demand that SQ continues to fly the route with their own planes? I know they use their smallest plane the A333 but that are still almost 300 seats they have to sell for one flight.

My only explanation is that these flights are timed to connect to other SQ flights. I was on an SQ A333 in March and the flight was less than half full. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a pity if SQ would not serve KUL anymore as that is probably the most historical route of SQ.

Also how is the market in general for this route? Are the airlines all still making money since the route was opened up to other carriers? Prices are so low now for flights between those two cities. I feel that FY in particular is stealing quite some business as they offer a good opportunity by offering SZB instead of KUL. However as they only fly the ATR 72 I am not sure if that really has a significant impact on that route.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

LAX888

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineinitious From Singapore, joined Dec 2008, 1054 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12007 times:

Quoting LAX888 (Thread starter):
that is probably the most historical route of SQ.

This could very well be the reason. SQ has been serving KUL for as long as they have been around.



One way I will fly around the world!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2949 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11995 times:

I don't know much about the route, but it seems to me that it's important for SQ to maintain a presence in KUL if they want to continue to capture part of that market for their long haul (and regional) services. It's also a good route for fleet efficiency, so they might as well run quick hops between long haul/regional services.

User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11979 times:
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As I recall when I took this flight, there is still a sizable cargo demand that connects between the cities as well as the passengers who would rather stay on SQ. Odd segment for a wide body for sure!


Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6306 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11890 times:

Like qf002 mentions, not sure this is true, but what about the idea that the plane would otherwise just sit idle on the ground in Singapore? They may have done the math to figure out that, even with the costs, KUL brings in enough money that it justifies using the a/c there in between longer flights rather than just having it sit on the ground in Singapore.

Just an idea.

[Edited 2012-05-07 10:00:41]

User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11892 times:

I have flown from FRA to KUL in March and the flights SIN-KUL and KUL-SIN was perfectly scheduled for connections from/to FRA. SQ operated with A330, I was on economy SIN-KUL (around 80% LF) and business on KUL-SIN (100% full). It looked, that the biggest part of the passengers were not connecting but O-D traffic.

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19199 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11813 times:

There has been a massive reduction in SQ's scheduled seats on SIN-KUL in the past 10 years (figures shown are one-way):

2002: 670,698
2003: 567,514
2004: 585,732
2005: 582,540
2006: 582,672
2007: 582,540
2008: 553,812
2009: 338,352
2010: 246,363
2011: 250,800
2012: 253,080

In comparison, and unsurprisingly given the that new entrants could operate SIN-KUL, seats on the route by all airlines has significantly increased:

2002: 1,396,389
2003: 1,182,830
2004: 1,238,239
2005: 1,345,398
2006: 1,349,902
2007: 1,233,022
2008: 1,372,458
2009: 2,004,344



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8237 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11736 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
There has been a massive reduction in SQ's scheduled seats on SIN-KUL in the past 10 years (figures shown are one-way):

  
The A333 is still a lot less seats than the 747 they used to operate 10 years ago.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19199 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11482 times:

Sorry, just re-visited this thread and noticed that the rest of my post didn't, for some reason, appear.

So:

2002: 1,396,389
2003: 1,182,830
2004: 1,238,239
2005: 1,345,398
2006: 1,349,902
2007: 1,233,022
2008: 1,372,458
2009: 2,004,344
2010: 1,956,975
2011: 2,175,365
2012: 2,323,542

I think you can tell in which year price-based competition began.  



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 10866 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
There has been a massive reduction in SQ's scheduled seats on SIN-KUL in the past 10 years (figures shown are one-way):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
n comparison, and unsurprisingly given the that new entrants could operate SIN-KUL, seats on the route by all airlines has significantly increased:

Just curious what was your source of that SIN-KUL capacity data?


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1611 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10725 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 2):
I don't know much about the route, but it seems to me that it's important for SQ to maintain a presence in KUL if they want to continue to capture part of that market for their long haul (and regional) services.

This is conjecture, but I assume this is a major consideration with regard to product. Sure, they could farm all the flying out to MI, but I imagine they want their own premium product on at least some of the flights to better compete with MH on long haul business to/from KUL. Add in that there is a significant O&D market between the two cities and it probably makes sense to have both the greater capacity and premium product.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19199 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10478 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Just curious what was your source of that SIN-KUL capacity data?

OAG Schedules iNET.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineLAX888 From Singapore, joined Oct 2010, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10268 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 2):
It's also a good route for fleet efficiency, so they might as well run quick hops between long haul/regional services.

Good input. I did not think of that, however it does make sense as this route is perfect for a short hop.

Thanks all for your contribution!!


User currently offlinedairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9734 times:

SQ has not any smaller aircraft than the A333 to serve this route!!!

I have been really often on KUL-SIN with SQ with A333, quite often with totally full flights!



A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2005 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9291 times:

Quoting SW733 (Reply 4):
but what about the idea that the plane would otherwise just sit idle on the ground in Singapore?

  

Same reason SQ used to send the A345 to CGK (now it is 100% 777-300).

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | VA SYD-OOL-SYD | JQ SYD-MEL | VA MEL-CBR-SYD | DL SYD-LAX-ATL-MIA | B6 FLL-DCA-BOS | DL BOS-L
User currently offlineHAWAIIAN932 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8815 times:

When I flew this route back in the early 90's SQ used an A-310 on my particular flight. I was bumped up to First Class so I'm assuming the flight was pretty full .

User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

SQ and MH probably get the lions share of high end business traffic from their respective home cities. The tourists and VFR people are probably on those LCCs that do this route. If you get enough business traffic you can do fine. I can also see it as an issue of just keeping those birds in the air.

User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2096 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

I also fly the route regularly. Last Saturday i did 2030 flight, I will be on the early morning flight on Friday this week, then again on Friday 2030 flight for connection to MAN, about 8 hrs at home. The 330 is used for connection and runs a high LF. I always seem to get fairly full flight but good old KF Gold helps to keep the seat empty next to me.

User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7843 times:

Quoting Coal (Reply 14):
Same reason SQ used to send the A345 to CGK (now it is 100% 777-300).

All SIN-CGK-SIN flights used to be using 777-300. Now they're using both -200 on certain flights and -300 on the others.


User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2005 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7011 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 18):
All SIN-CGK-SIN flights used to be using 777-300. Now they're using both -200 on certain flights and -300 on the others.

Ah, this must be fairly new. I was flying to CGK on a bi-weekly basis from July to December 2011 and all the flights were 777-300.

Cheers
Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | VA SYD-OOL-SYD | JQ SYD-MEL | VA MEL-CBR-SYD | DL SYD-LAX-ATL-MIA | B6 FLL-DCA-BOS | DL BOS-L
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6366 times:

Quoting dairy (Reply 13):

SQ has not any smaller aircraft than the A333 to serve this route!!!

SQ's A333s have 30 J seats and 255 Y seats (I believe it is the exact same configuration of the 772ERs nowadays). Did SQ get rid of its non-ER 772s? I think they used to have 772s with 28 J seats and 228 Y seats.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineinitious From Singapore, joined Dec 2008, 1054 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6306 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 20):
Did SQ get rid of its non-ER 772s? I think they used to have 772s with 28 J seats and 228 Y seats.

Sorry I can't stop myself from doing this but SQ doesn't have non-ER 772s. The "777-200s" are 77Es with derated engines and they use 777-200 for internal scheduling purposes to segregate the 9V-SV* series which flies the long haul routes. They are configured 38J/226Y in the new layout and has a total of 266 seats.



One way I will fly around the world!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

Quoting initious (Reply 21):
They are configured 38J/226Y in the new layout and has a total of 266 seats

Well, then yes, SQ does have a plane smaller than the A330-300.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineinfinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 548 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

SIN-KUL is one of the busiest routes in the world.

To us, it is practically a domestic flight (technically, it was a domestic flight)

It beats me too. Despite the likes of Tiger and Airasia offering S$50 (US$45) tickets all year around, SQ and MH flights are still doing pretty well on this 30-minute route.

On an SQ flight last year, the cabin was 70% full in Y and about 50% in J. But then that is only one SQ flight on this route so that could be statistically polarised.

Well as Pe@rson point out above, the capacity has dropped a lot for SQ and MI on this route. My guess is apart from corporate pax there are Singaporeans travelling MH and Malaysians travelling SQ who'd take this as a connecting flight.

And for the pax in J, don't underestimate the wealthy in this region! On a similar route, SIN-CGK, a 1hr 20minute flight, SQ still operates a 3-class configuration. There are lots of wealthy Indonesians who'd pay for and fly nothing but F on SQ.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 711 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5650 times:
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Quoting infinit (Reply 23):
It beats me too. Despite the likes of Tiger and Airasia offering S$50 (US$45) tickets all year around, SQ and MH flights are still doing pretty well on this 30-minute route.

I think a key factor is SQ's flexibility when it comes to ticket options, which are offer far more generous conditions than the LCCs. This is probably a key factor when it comes to business traffic between this city pairing.



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
25 LAX888 : Yes I am also surprised as both SQ/MI and MH still have at least 7-8 flights a day in both directions. I think in the past it was not much more but t
26 A388 : Reading the thread title alone I thaught, all (major) Asian airlines use widebody aircraft on relatively short flights too and I was always amazed at
27 9VSIO : That might be so, however, consider this. Few passengers will buy food on board the AK flight, thus the addition to crew workload is minimal. If SQ w
28 Post contains links infinit : Exactly. I think doing a full hot meal service in 30minutes is not possible. As it is, the SQ boys and girls run up and down trying to get a drink to
29 ycp81 : They should see how Qantas does a sandwich and full bar service on a 25min hop from Sydney-Canberra during dinner time on an almost full B738 flight
30 LAX888 : You'd be surprised how many people do preorder a meal, even for this short flight. Even on domestic flights which are also around the same time I hav
31 6thfreedom : SQ runs three flights per day, which are clearly timed for the local business market and international conencting markets. i fly to KUL with SQ regula
32 col : Just got off SQ106 A333. As per usual full with all the connections. Flight time is normally 40 to 45mins, longer legs are on the KUL-SIN due to traff
33 9VSIO : Yes, sadly cost cutting is noticeable on SQ, though not as bad at some other airlines. On my recent SQ flight from LHR-SIN, the food containers in Y
34 SIA747Megatop : Dummy bookings will show that SQ throws in this sector on the cheap (relatively...somewhat) for connecting pax originating in North America, Oceania,
35 Coal : Well I think the reason for this is two fold: On the one hand, airlines like SQ and CX rely a lot on connecting pax, so this sort of works similar to
36 5MillionMiler : Yes the SYD-CBR is amazing how fast they work! I take that flight a lot, and everyone always gets served and the trash picked up. However, recently t
37 Post contains images LAX888 : I shall be on SQ again on this route this Thur and Sat. Will see if they still serve nothing. Then I shall e-mail SQ and ask about it. I will be on t
38 RayChuang : I think the fact there is a HUGE ethnic Chinese population in Singapore is why you have so many flights per day between Hong Kong and Singapore--and
39 Coal : You missed my point entirely. My whole point was how Singapore and Hong Kong are major financial centers and yet they make it work with only 6-7 flig
40 rogercamel : Well - Malaysia is thinking about one getting as far as Johor Bahru at the moment, which would probably link to the planned RTS link between the two
41 infinit : Careful there. Most Singaporeans of all the ethnic groups here tend to identify themselves only as Singaporean and the ethnic Chinese Singaporeans ma
42 col : Flew the 2030 flight last Friday and it was again full with transits, as myself.
43 SIA747Megatop : Frequently use the SQ buses for my day trips to KUL and they are usually packed in J.
44 sankaps : Actually, one can argue SQ does have smaller aircraft... via its subsidiary SilkAir. In recent years SilkAir has started operating this route with A3
45 sq_ek_freak : At EK the comparable flight is Doha and we do a meal service on this flight, usually lasts around 35-45 minutes. QR does one too, though theirs doesn
46 infinit : How has the meal/snack service been in J lately?
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