LAX888 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2010, 256 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11526 times:
Hi all
I have a question regarding the route SIN-KUL v.v. Currently MH, SQ, MI, AK, JQ and Tiger Airways fly the route to KUL and FY to SZB. Therefore there are a ton of flights a day between these two cities.
MH, SQ and MI have a code-share agreement and SQ has transferred a lot of flights to MI in the last few years. However they still keep 3-4 flights themselves which I find odd, as usually either SQ or MI operate the flights to a destination and there is no mix except for one destination in India if I remember correctly.
Is there really enough demand that SQ continues to fly the route with their own planes? I know they use their smallest plane the A333 but that are still almost 300 seats they have to sell for one flight.
My only explanation is that these flights are timed to connect to other SQ flights. I was on an SQ A333 in March and the flight was less than half full. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a pity if SQ would not serve KUL anymore as that is probably the most historical route of SQ.
Also how is the market in general for this route? Are the airlines all still making money since the route was opened up to other carriers? Prices are so low now for flights between those two cities. I feel that FY in particular is stealing quite some business as they offer a good opportunity by offering SZB instead of KUL. However as they only fly the ATR 72 I am not sure if that really has a significant impact on that route.
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2559 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11218 times:
I don't know much about the route, but it seems to me that it's important for SQ to maintain a presence in KUL if they want to continue to capture part of that market for their long haul (and regional) services. It's also a good route for fleet efficiency, so they might as well run quick hops between long haul/regional services.
mbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 788 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11202 times:
As I recall when I took this flight, there is still a sizable cargo demand that connects between the cities as well as the passengers who would rather stay on SQ. Odd segment for a wide body for sure!
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
SW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11113 times:
Like qf002 mentions, not sure this is true, but what about the idea that the plane would otherwise just sit idle on the ground in Singapore? They may have done the math to figure out that, even with the costs, KUL brings in enough money that it justifies using the a/c there in between longer flights rather than just having it sit on the ground in Singapore.
smbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11115 times:
I have flown from FRA to KUL in March and the flights SIN-KUL and KUL-SIN was perfectly scheduled for connections from/to FRA. SQ operated with A330, I was on economy SIN-KUL (around 80% LF) and business on KUL-SIN (100% full). It looked, that the biggest part of the passengers were not connecting but O-D traffic.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21507 posts, RR: 24 Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10089 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6): There has been a massive reduction in SQ's scheduled seats on SIN-KUL in the past 10 years (figures shown are one-way):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6): n comparison, and unsurprisingly given the that new entrants could operate SIN-KUL, seats on the route by all airlines has significantly increased:
Just curious what was your source of that SIN-KUL capacity data?
steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1435 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9948 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2): I don't know much about the route, but it seems to me that it's important for SQ to maintain a presence in KUL if they want to continue to capture part of that market for their long haul (and regional) services.
This is conjecture, but I assume this is a major consideration with regard to product. Sure, they could farm all the flying out to MI, but I imagine they want their own premium product on at least some of the flights to better compete with MH on long haul business to/from KUL. Add in that there is a significant O&D market between the two cities and it probably makes sense to have both the greater capacity and premium product.
HAWAIIAN932 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8038 times:
When I flew this route back in the early 90's SQ used an A-310 on my particular flight. I was bumped up to First Class so I'm assuming the flight was pretty full .
ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 584 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7437 times:
SQ and MH probably get the lions share of high end business traffic from their respective home cities. The tourists and VFR people are probably on those LCCs that do this route. If you get enough business traffic you can do fine. I can also see it as an issue of just keeping those birds in the air.
col From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 22 Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7376 times:
I also fly the route regularly. Last Saturday i did 2030 flight, I will be on the early morning flight on Friday this week, then again on Friday 2030 flight for connection to MAN, about 8 hrs at home. The 330 is used for connection and runs a high LF. I always seem to get fairly full flight but good old KF Gold helps to keep the seat empty next to me.
Coal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6234 times:
Quoting afterburner (Reply 18): All SIN-CGK-SIN flights used to be using 777-300. Now they're using both -200 on certain flights and -300 on the others.
Ah, this must be fairly new. I was flying to CGK on a bi-weekly basis from July to December 2011 and all the flights were 777-300.
Cheers Coal
Nxt Flts: QR SIN-DPS | SQ DPS-SIN | 3K SIN-SGN-SIN | SQ SIN-PEK | CA PEK-FNJ-PEK | CX PEK-HKG-CGK
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7184 posts, RR: 45 Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5589 times:
Quoting dairy (Reply 13):
SQ has not any smaller aircraft than the A333 to serve this route!!!
SQ's A333s have 30 J seats and 255 Y seats (I believe it is the exact same configuration of the 772ERs nowadays). Did SQ get rid of its non-ER 772s? I think they used to have 772s with 28 J seats and 228 Y seats.
initious From Singapore, joined Dec 2008, 1011 posts, RR: 16 Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5529 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 20): Did SQ get rid of its non-ER 772s? I think they used to have 772s with 28 J seats and 228 Y seats.
Sorry I can't stop myself from doing this but SQ doesn't have non-ER 772s. The "777-200s" are 77Es with derated engines and they use 777-200 for internal scheduling purposes to segregate the 9V-SV* series which flies the long haul routes. They are configured 38J/226Y in the new layout and has a total of 266 seats.
infinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 310 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5079 times:
SIN-KUL is one of the busiest routes in the world.
To us, it is practically a domestic flight (technically, it was a domestic flight)
It beats me too. Despite the likes of Tiger and Airasia offering S$50 (US$45) tickets all year around, SQ and MH flights are still doing pretty well on this 30-minute route.
On an SQ flight last year, the cabin was 70% full in Y and about 50% in J. But then that is only one SQ flight on this route so that could be statistically polarised.
Well as Pe@rson point out above, the capacity has dropped a lot for SQ and MI on this route. My guess is apart from corporate pax there are Singaporeans travelling MH and Malaysians travelling SQ who'd take this as a connecting flight.
And for the pax in J, don't underestimate the wealthy in this region! On a similar route, SIN-CGK, a 1hr 20minute flight, SQ still operates a 3-class configuration. There are lots of wealthy Indonesians who'd pay for and fly nothing but F on SQ.
9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 643 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4872 times:
Quoting infinit (Reply 23): It beats me too. Despite the likes of Tiger and Airasia offering S$50 (US$45) tickets all year around, SQ and MH flights are still doing pretty well on this 30-minute route.
I think a key factor is SQ's flexibility when it comes to ticket options, which are offer far more generous conditions than the LCCs. This is probably a key factor when it comes to business traffic between this city pairing.
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
LAX888 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2010, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5037 times:
Quoting infinit (Reply 23): It beats me too. Despite the likes of Tiger and Airasia offering S$50 (US$45) tickets all year around, SQ and MH flights are still doing pretty well on this 30-minute route.
Yes I am also surprised as both SQ/MI and MH still have at least 7-8 flights a day in both directions. I think in the past it was not much more but they used bigger planes for that route.
I would think a lot of business travellers also use FY as they can fly directly in to Subang and can cut down time spent commuting to and from KLIA.
Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 24): I think a key factor is SQ's flexibility when it comes to ticket options, which are offer far more generous conditions than the LCCs. This is probably a key factor when it comes to business traffic between this city pairing.
Yes I agree. That's why I booked SQ as I needed the flexibility to change my ticket without paying a penalty.
On a side note I am a bit surprised that SQ only serves coffee, tea, water and orange juice on this flight and MH still at least offers peanuts. I know it is a minor thing but you would think that they would differentiate themselves more from the LCC. On AK you can buy a whole meal for this short flight and the variety of drinks is better and you probably would have still paid less than with SQ or MH.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9080 posts, RR: 13 Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4831 times:
Reading the thread title alone I thaught, all (major) Asian airlines use widebody aircraft on relatively short flights too and I was always amazed at how they can make such flights work profitably but they have been doing this since widebody aircraft came out so I guess the market is still there and that they know what they are doing. I can see these widebody short hops being good for fleet planning purposes in between longhaul flights (Most U.S. airline for example have to park their widebody aircraft all day in Argentina, Chile and Brazil to have better connections in their own hubs in the U.S. on the return flights). Markets within Asia are probably much bigger which allows Asian airlines to use widebody aircraft on short hops as well and cargo probably can play a role too as was said also.
9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 643 posts, RR: 2 Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4743 times:
Quoting LAX888 (Reply 25): On AK you can buy a whole meal for this short flight and the variety of drinks is better and you probably would have still paid less than with SQ or MH.
That might be so, however, consider this. Few passengers will buy food on board the AK flight, thus the addition to crew workload is minimal. If SQ were to start serving food, it would have to serve food to every passenger on the aircraft which will definitely slow things down if it were a full hot meal!
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
infinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 310 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4698 times:
Quoting LAX888 (Reply 25): On a side note I am a bit surprised that SQ only serves coffee, tea, water and orange juice on this flight and MH still at least offers peanuts. I know it is a minor thing but you would think that they would differentiate themselves more from the LCC. On AK you can buy a whole meal for this short flight and the variety of drinks is better and you probably would have still paid less than with SQ or MH.
Exactly. I think doing a full hot meal service in 30minutes is not possible. As it is, the SQ boys and girls run up and down trying to get a drink to everyone. I think they could be more innovative here. Maybe give each passenger a boxed meal before take off or something. If you're paying a premium, there should be some value add to differentiate you from your LLC contemporaries!
While SQ is often regarded as among the best in commercial aviation, note that they've been cost cutting here too.
The first picture is the meal on J on this flight 3 years ago. Scroll down the thread for a picture of a meal on the same flight a decade before! But to be fair, SQ fares on this flight have halved.
ycp81 From Singapore, joined Jun 2006, 338 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4277 times:
Quoting infinit (Reply 28): Exactly. I think doing a full hot meal service in 30minutes is not possible. As it is, the SQ boys and girls run up and down trying to get a drink to everyone. I think they could be more innovative here. Maybe give each passenger a boxed meal before take off or something. If you're paying a premium, there should be some value add to differentiate you from your LLC contemporaries!
They should see how Qantas does a sandwich and full bar service on a 25min hop from Sydney-Canberra during dinner time on an almost full B738 flight in economy. I am still amazed how the crew managed to complete the feat.
My past and future travels - http://www.ba97.com/ba97/calendar/report.asp?handle=ycp81
LAX888 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2010, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4244 times:
Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 27): That might be so, however, consider this. Few passengers will buy food on board the AK flight, thus the addition to crew workload is minimal. If SQ were to start serving food, it would have to serve food to every passenger on the aircraft which will definitely slow things down if it were a full hot meal!
You'd be surprised how many people do preorder a meal, even for this short flight. Even on domestic flights which are also around the same time I have seen many people ordering Nasi Lemak, instant noodles etc. Of course I don't expect SQ to offer a full hot meal on this flight. However I would have thought at least something like a small sandwich or a pack of nuts or just something small with the drink. I mean MH can do it.
Quoting infinit (Reply 28): Exactly. I think doing a full hot meal service in 30minutes is not possible. As it is, the SQ boys and girls run up and down trying to get a drink to everyone. I think they could be more innovative here. Maybe give each passenger a boxed meal before take off or something. If you're paying a premium, there should be some value add to differentiate you from your LLC contemporaries!
I agree with you. Service is a challenge due to the flight time, however I also would think that they could distribute something small before departure. I mean they are around 3-4 times more expensive than the LCCs. The reason why I flew SQ was because I was connecting from Europe on LH and wanted an easy transfer and to interline the bags. Therefore for this alone I was prepared to pay the premium.
The first picture is the meal on J on this flight 3 years ago. Scroll down the thread for a picture of a meal on the same flight a decade before! But to be fair, SQ fares on this flight have halved.
That is sad to see. I would have at least expected something like a plated appetizer or something not wrapped in plastic.
col From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 22 Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3909 times:
Just got off SQ106 A333. As per usual full with all the connections. Flight time is normally 40 to 45mins, longer legs are on the KUL-SIN due to traffice restrictions. The drinks service starts just before the decent. Back again tonight on the 2030, but normally this is full with connectors also.
9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 643 posts, RR: 2 Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3468 times:
Quoting LAX888 (Reply 30): That is sad to see. I would have at least expected something like a plated appetizer or something not wrapped in plastic.
Yes, sadly cost cutting is noticeable on SQ, though not as bad at some other airlines. On my recent SQ flight from LHR-SIN, the food containers in Y came covered in cling film, rather than actually having a proper plastic cover.
Quoting LAX888 (Reply 30): However I would have thought at least something like a small sandwich or a pack of nuts or just something small with the drink. I mean MH can do it.
Hmm, the pack of nuts would certainly be in-line with other drinks services on the other routes. Have you ever written in to SQ to see what they say about this?
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
SIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3442 times:
Dummy bookings will show that SQ throws in this sector on the cheap (relatively...somewhat) for connecting pax originating in North America, Oceania, North Asia and in some cases Europe.
Bon Jovi - Train - Matchbox Twenty - Matt Nathanson - Neon Trees
Coal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 6 Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3248 times:
Quoting A388 (Reply 26): Reading the thread title alone I thaught, all (major) Asian airlines use widebody aircraft on relatively short flights too and I was always amazed at how they can make such flights work profitably but they have been doing this since widebody aircraft came out so I guess the market is still there and that they know what they are doing.
Well I think the reason for this is two fold: On the one hand, airlines like SQ and CX rely a lot on connecting pax, so this sort of works similar to the EK / EY / QR model.
But, having said that, look at a market like SIN - HKG in which SQ has 6 daily flights and CX 7. If this was the US (say, MIA - JFK or ORD - JFK), you would have 20-30 flights per day on nothing bigger than a A320/B737, but likely on CRJs. I still don't believe that model works. They claim it is to give business people flexibility. But most business people prefer to spend their time during the day on the ground, so I believe having 8 daily flights per carrier with, say, 2 in the morning, 2 in the evening, 2 and noon, and one mid-morning and one mid-afternoon should suit most people's needs, instead of 20 or more. Economies of scale.
Cheers Coal
Nxt Flts: QR SIN-DPS | SQ DPS-SIN | 3K SIN-SGN-SIN | SQ SIN-PEK | CA PEK-FNJ-PEK | CX PEK-HKG-CGK
5MillionMiler From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3012 times:
Quoting ycp81 (Reply 29): They should see how Qantas does a sandwich and full bar service on a 25min hop from Sydney-Canberra during dinner time on an almost full B738 flight in economy. I am still amazed how the crew managed to complete the feat.
Yes the SYD-CBR is amazing how fast they work! I take that flight a lot, and everyone always gets served and the trash picked up. However, recently took that flight and after takeoff the FSB sing came off and then we quickly got into a line of storms... kinda got interesting in a big hurry. Of course, when we landed the FAs gave the flight crew hell about no warning... and I don't blame them. I saw the dark CBs everywhere and wondered when they were going to make everyone buckle up and the crew return to seats. Not soon enough.
Used to be on SQ between SIN-KUL a lot connecting from MEL/SYD. Was the 772 then, sometime 773 and even 744 -- usually the bigger birds when there were thunderstorms night before and cancellations due to weather created backlog.
The crew does service the entire a/c with food and drinks. I recall climbing out of SIN one night like a rocket and these two girls pushing the cart up the steep incline as we were climbing up to cruise altitude. Must be very hard flight for FAs to work! They did it like clockwork though.
LAX888 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2010, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2318 times:
Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 33): Hmm, the pack of nuts would certainly be in-line with other drinks services on the other routes. Have you ever written in to SQ to see what they say about this?
I shall be on SQ again on this route this Thur and Sat. Will see if they still serve nothing. Then I shall e-mail SQ and ask about it.
Quoting infinit (Reply 23): On an SQ flight last year, the cabin was 70% full in Y and about 50% in J. But then that is only one SQ flight on this route so that could be statistically polarised.
I will be on two flights this week between KUL and SIN. Will see how the load is. From the seat map on their website it seems the flights are around 60% full.
Maybe can also ask a Singapore Girl how the loads usually are.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7696 posts, RR: 5 Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2230 times:
Quoting Coal (Reply 35): But, having said that, look at a market like SIN - HKG in which SQ has 6 daily flights and CX 7. If this was the US (say, MIA - JFK or ORD - JFK), you would have 20-30 flights per day on nothing bigger than a A320/B737, but likely on CRJs. I still don't believe that model works.
I think the fact there is a HUGE ethnic Chinese population in Singapore is why you have so many flights per day between Hong Kong and Singapore--and that includes a lot of premium class traffic due to Hong Kong and Singapore being major financial centers.
But getting back on topic, I wonder why has Singapore and Malaysia not seriously considered a high-speed rail link between the two cities? A train using Japan's well-proven Shinkansen technology could travel at a speed of 186 mph (300 km/h) between Singapore and Kuala Lumpur in only a few hours, and would allow SQ and MH to free up planes for other services.
Coal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 6 Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38): I think the fact there is a HUGE ethnic Chinese population in Singapore is why you have so many flights per day between Hong Kong and Singapore--and that includes a lot of premium class traffic due to Hong Kong and Singapore being major financial centers
You missed my point entirely. My whole point was how Singapore and Hong Kong are major financial centers and yet they make it work with only 6-7 flights per day each, compared to 20-30 flights per day between major business centers in the US. The major difference being the a/c type.
I don't see too much how ethnicity plays in here. Singaporeans love to go to HK to shop and eat, whereas there are probably less Hongkongers coming to Singapore.
Cheers Coal
Nxt Flts: QR SIN-DPS | SQ DPS-SIN | 3K SIN-SGN-SIN | SQ SIN-PEK | CA PEK-FNJ-PEK | CX PEK-HKG-CGK
rogercamel From Singapore, joined Feb 2012, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2133 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38): I wonder why has Singapore and Malaysia not seriously considered a high-speed rail link between the two cities?
Well - Malaysia is thinking about one getting as far as Johor Bahru at the moment, which would probably link to the planned RTS link between the two countries... Pretty close...
infinit From Singapore, joined Jul 2008, 310 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2058 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38): I think the fact there is a HUGE ethnic Chinese population in Singapore is why you have so many flights per day between Hong Kong and Singapore.
Careful there. Most Singaporeans of all the ethnic groups here tend to identify themselves only as Singaporean and the ethnic Chinese Singaporeans may take offense if you call them Chinese.
sankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1632 times:
Quoting dairy (Reply 13): SQ has not any smaller aircraft than the A333 to serve this route!!!
I have been really often on KUL-SIN with SQ with A333, quite often with totally full flights!
Actually, one can argue SQ does have smaller aircraft... via its subsidiary SilkAir. In recent years SilkAir has started operating this route with A320s, code-shared with SQ, often at the exact same timings SQ earlier flew their aircraft.
SQ has been deploying SilkAir on other routes too, such as CCU, where on some days of the week SQ flies the route, and on some days SilkAir. It seems SQ management has increasingly begun using SilkAir freely as an extension of SQ by using their aircraft to match capacity to demand, rather than keep as a separate company with no overlapping destinations like it used to earlier. Quite confusing for passengers though on overlapping, code-shared routes.
I too remember the days SQ used to have 747-300s on the KUL route, operating from KL's old Subang airport...
sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1585 posts, RR: 21 Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1401 times:
Quoting LAX888 (Reply 30):
You'd be surprised how many people do preorder a meal, even for this short flight. Even on domestic flights which are also around the same time I have seen many people ordering Nasi Lemak, instant noodles etc. Of course I don't expect SQ to offer a full hot meal on this flight. However I would have thought at least something like a small sandwich or a pack of nuts or just something small with the drink. I mean MH can do it.
At EK the comparable flight is Doha and we do a meal service on this flight, usually lasts around 35-45 minutes. QR does one too, though theirs doesn't involve an actual meal tray, I think.
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