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BER Opening Postponed  
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20952 times:

According to the AP, the opening date of the "new" Berlin airport will slip by several weeks, apparently due to problems with the fire protection equipment. How embarrassing ...

SailorOrion

[Edited 2012-05-08 04:06:59 by SA7700]

125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20999 times:

At this point, this is just a rumour published by Germany's largest tabloid. There will be an official press conference at 1 pm.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20992 times:

No, it is not just a tabloid. It is AP as the OP has stated, and FAZ reports it too.


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20883 times:

Yes, it's official. Several weeks delayedbecause of unfinished fire protection installations in the terminal building.

That's a mere disaster. Now, just at the amount of re-organization/rescheduling of the overnight move from TXL to BER (staff, ground vehicles etc.) that needs to be done now...

And the costs... Tax money it will be, I guess. What about the airlines? How is this organized? How much will AB/LH lose just because there won't be a working hub airport by 3 June? What about pax who are already booked on connecting flights? TXL just cannot handle connections!!!

What a catastrophe.

edit: and what's more, there is just no definite new opening date, it's just "several weeks later". Incredible.

edit: There will be a press conference this afternoon, at 13:00 local time. Also, the Tagesspiegel newspaper reported about the problems with the fire protection earlier.:

BER To Open With Provisorial "Tent Terminal" (by Tobias2702 Apr 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5444926&searchid=5447600&s=tent+terminal#ID5447600

[Edited 2012-05-08 02:49:08]

[Edited 2012-05-08 02:54:23]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20816 times:

Until a few minutes ago, they were all reporting based on a "breaking news" published by BILD at 11 am.

However, in the meantime, there has been independent confirmation from within government sources.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20771 times:

The problems seems to be that the smoke venting system in the terminal building isn't working properly, which is why the operating allowance is deied because of the obvious safety concerns.

Here, this gives you an impression on what needs to be reorganized on the passenger side alone...
http://preview.berlin-airport.de/en/...xf/important-information/index.php

As someone who was born in Berlin and spent so much time there, I can only say that I'm ashamed of the city. This will affect travellers/companies worldwide!

[Edited 2012-05-08 02:56:41]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20695 times:

No, from what I can gather from the most recent press articles, the airport was unable to submit proper documentation so that the terminal could not be cleared for operations.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/sc...d-platzeck-stinksauer/6604068.html


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20650 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 6):
the airport was unable to submit proper documentation so that the terminal could not be cleared for operations.

But that's unthinkable. If all systems worked as they should, submitting the proper papers cannot be a matter of weeks (as stated above, the problems were known at least since mid-April).

As I read the article, the problems with the venting system are so huge that the airport wasn't able to schedule the needed acceptance test. "Some parts of work properly, but there is a failure with the system as a whole".

[Edited 2012-05-08 03:02:55]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3787 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20652 times:

On a positive note, it shows that the government is independant and working. Since we already had several people killed in a DUS fire in 1996, better to do it right.

User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20622 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 7):
But that's unthinkable. If all systems worked as they should, submitting the proper papers cannot be a matter of weeks (as stated above, the problems were known at least since mid-April).

Apparently it was. I am just telling you what the Tagesspiegel write, a very respected broad-sheet.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10937 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20558 times:

I just happened to see the information of the new airport opening delay via der spiegel.

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...g-im-juni-verschoben-a-831989.html

Article in German. I had to use the reverso online translation.

I hope all those who had booked your travel can get refunds/reschedulings.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20541 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 9):
pparently it was. I am just telling you what the Tagesspiegel write, a very respected broad-sheet.

Sorry, maybe I got you wrong here. I read your post as if the airport had forgotten to submit the necessary papers. As I read the (indeed respectable newspaper) article, the airport just wasn't able to apply for the acceptance test because the whole installation is f***ed up.

Maybe we should return to discussing my original questions about howe Air Berlin, Lufthansa, other airlines, airport employees, public transport systems (bus/railroad lines were to be ceased/opened) etc. will re-organize that mess.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8198 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20547 times:

Air Events have a special "last flight out of TXL" on June 2, glad I didn't book pricey (yet non-changeable) BA LHR-TXL and SXF-LHR flights yet. Hope it works out - but TXL is such a unique, friendly, historic airport, any reprieve, even a couple of weeks, is A Good Thing.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20441 times:

Rumors according to Tagesspiegel are that the press conference at 13:00 won't give a new opeing date. That means, the opening of BER is postponed indefinitely. "Hopes are to open the new airport after the summer, but still in 2012".

This is such a disaster. Airlines/Airport Employers etc. just need a date for the planning. Huge losses feared especially for AB/LH. Heck, pax are already booked on BER connections, which won't be possible given the current TXL layout.

LH planned to increase its presence in Berlin, stationing several a/c in BER. At TXL, there just won't be any space. This non-opeing is unprecedented in an "otherwise properly run" country, I suppose?



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20412 times:

The airport must open in 2012. As far as I know, TXL will be without a licence from Jan 1. 2013 and this cannot be changed easily. My guess is that they will open with effect winter schedule.

User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20316 times:

What I am hearing is that it will be impossible for airlines to operate according to schedule from 3 June if BER is not open.

I'm still trying to get an overview about the multitude of catastrophic problems this non-opening creates. For example, without BER operational, maintenance schedules have to be redone because there won't be any aircraft around at the hangars...

AB opened its BER hangar yesterday: http://www.airberlin.com/en-DE/site/pressnews_dr.php?ID=3858&LANG=eng

[Edited 2012-05-08 03:31:16]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20208 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
On a positive note, it shows that the government is independant and working. Since we already had several people killed in a DUS fire in 1996, better to do it right.

The governmen is not independent. The laws they have put in place mandate such things. The reason is that the terminal building, the fire protection system etc. will , at the present stage, not be certified by TUEV. Without that certification the airport cannot open. Whoever would override that would be personally liable if something happens. Haven't we good laws in his country?

Now, why doesn't surprise me this breaking news? I would have won another bet.

And the Berlin Mayor said, just about 2 weeks, ago, of course it will open on time. After all, we have decided that it will open.

See above......and welcome again to Posemuckel.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineFN1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20106 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 13):
This non-opeing is unprecedented in an "otherwise properly run" country, I suppose?

This is no more the Federal Republic of Germany, as it was 25 years ago, it is new Germany, including the former GDR and a bunch of manpower from the eastern part of Europe. Unfortunately the quality and reliability of the products and services has declined dramatically in the last decades.

Long time ago, the label "Made in Germany", was something more valuable than today ISO9001 or other labels. Today they build a new runway in FRA and use it only for departures (in contradiction to the german phrase, which describes the mentality quite good: "keine halben Sahen machen" - don't do things by halves).



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20057 times:

Quoting aloges:
It's about airports in Berlin. Logic does not apply.  

BER To Open With Provisorial "Tent Terminal" (by Tobias2702 Apr 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

I'm trying hard to suppress quite a lot of hysterical laughter... that is one clusterfuck accomplished, I suppose.   

It is of course a shame that thousands of passengers will have to change their travel plans, but on the huge cake of utterly bonkers aviation policy Made in Berlin (and Brandenburg), this is the icing... anyway, they can always turn the unused terminal into a Tropical Island in case it never does get certified.  

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 17):
Today they build a new runway in FRA and use it only for departures

Ummm... sorry, but that runway was built in the early 80s.

[Edited 2012-05-08 03:50:55]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20031 times:

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 17):
FRA and use it only for departures (in contradiction to the german phrase, which describes the mentality quite good: "keine halben Sahen machen" - don't do things by halves).

basically you are right, but we had half a runway for starting saircarft., so we needed the other half for landings here. Makes one now.

The problem is not the industry, which powers hout high quality goods. The prolem are the politicdians who have no clue what they are doing but cave in to each pressure group made up of people who do not know at all what they are doing and what the consequences can be.

BER is a mis-conception from the beginning, that mis-conception includs the closure of the other 2 airports. I hope they can keep TXL open until the new one is ready, because it might be law that TXL has to close June 3trd.

If that happens Germany would be laughing stock all over the world and I would alugh MFAO



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinepadster From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20007 times:

http://www.n24.de/news/newsitem_7906945.html now suggests that it could be as long as September to sort out the problem with the ventilation...

sounds like a major problem for all the airlines who were launching new routes from BER ... can TXL cope ?


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19889 times:

Quoting padster (Reply 20):
sounds like a major problem for all the airlines who were launching new routes from BER ... can TXL cope ?

As I stated above, TXL alone is not able to hold the BER-scheduled upright:

**not enough facilities for connecting pax (AB connecions might be possible, but LH/Star connecting passengers will face near-impossible conditions). Same for AB-oneworld connections.

**not enough runway capacities to cater for the increased flight numbers of LH/AB

**TXL curfew is 23:00-06:00, BER is 00:00-05:00

**Not enough ramp space at TXL for the aircraft AB/LH plan to station at BER

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 14):
As far as I know, TXL will be without a licence from Jan 1. 2013 and this cannot be changed easily.

You are right.

[Edited 2012-05-08 04:10:06]

[Edited 2012-05-08 04:15:09]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19835 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
If that happens Germany would be laughing stock all over the world and I would alugh MFAO

You aren't already?

Quoting padster (Reply 20):
can TXL cope ?

short answer: not at all

long answer: Its capacity is 12 million passengers per year. It served 16.919.820 in 2011. Fortunately, I haven't had the misfortune of flying through there for years, but the last time it happened, TXL was a mess of long and confusing walks, pedestrian tunnels and terminals that would at best be called shacks elsewhere (Terminal C). Finally, there isn't even any sort of rail link to the place. BER was originally supposed to open late last year, which explains the neglect... well, together with Berlin's debt and the anti-airport policies of the governing parties it does.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19627 times:

Berlin Mayor at press conference: So far, no definite new opening date will be given, negotiations with airport holding needed here (new opening planned for "after the summer vacacions"). Decision to be done during the next days.

Governors of Berlin and Brandenburg "furious" that the situation was not recognized/admitted earlier. This will be investigated, of course. Both claim, that there will be no flight disruptions.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 19612 times:

German's are a peculiar people. They can move the temples of Abu Simbel, but they can't build Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie nor open a tiny airport it seems.

This is indescribably embarrassing, but if we're being honest to ourselves, comes to the surprise of the fewest.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 25, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20476 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 22):
You aren't already?

I am indeed. When this clown Wowi replied to the reporter about 2 weeks ago (while visiting BER) that of course they will open because they have a resolution that it opens, I had mxy doubts.

I wonder what the press conferenjce will bring, unfortunately I am traveölling and cannpot hear or live stream it.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20424 times:

Quoting something (Reply 24):
a tiny airport it seems.

27 Million pax/year and hub of a oneworld member airline is not exaclty what I would call tiny.

But anyway, are there any statements from LH/AB yet? The press conference had only politicians and construction planners.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 27, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20787 times:

Quoting something (Reply 24):
They can move the temples of Abu Simbel, but they can't build Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie nor open a tiny airport it seems.

It's usually when political prestige (or that of engineers) takes precedence over safety margins and economic/ecologic sense that people mess up like this. In that respect, we aren't any different from any other people.

But we still build all the nice cars that you island dwellers buy.   



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20770 times:

It is amazing how nobody has learned from the LHR T5 fiasco. If you intend to open an airport to replace 2 others, better do it in stages and not all at once.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20756 times:

It is really a huge mess.

Now it is a turn for AB and LH to decide what to do with announced huge numbers of new routes/frequencies and what to do with a passengers who already booked flights.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 30, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20740 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 26):
But anyway, are there any statements from LH/AB yet?

Not yet, AFAIK, but watch these spaces:
http://presse.lufthansa.com/de/meldungen/presseinformationen.html (DE)
http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-releases/press-releases.html (EN)
http://www.airberlin.com/site/pressnews.php?LANG=deu (DE)
http://www.airberlin.com/en-DE/site/pressnews.php (EN)



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20719 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
I am indeed. When this clown Wowi replied to the reporter about 2 weeks ago (while visiting BER) that of course they will open because they have a resolution that it opens, I had mxy doubts.

I wonder what the press conferenjce will bring, unfortunately I am traveölling and cannpot hear or live stream it.

It's already over, nothing really new. No new opeing date so far. According to radio correspondent, Mr Schwarz, the BER airport manager, was -- as of last week-- honestly very optimistic and confident that the opening date would hold. Today, he "looks shocked, taken aback, a picture of misery". Maybe, indeed it was hoped to get the problems fixed up in time.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 32, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20637 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 28):
If you intend to open an airport to replace 2 others

BER will replace 3 other airports when it finally gets round to opening: THF, TXL and SXF. In its final days, scheduled traffic at THF was a small operation, but it did have considerable GA traffic.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20581 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 31):
It's already over,

It is not. I am still watching it...


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20613 times:

Also, the non-opening of BER / non-closure of TXL means an ATC problem as the regulations concerning the then-valid flight paths are worthless now.


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20408 times:

Sad news, I looked into booking tickets in June to BER to see the new airport (and a short trip to the city), glad I didn't. Now, I'll wait to a more final date.

Although I did have a little chuckle. Seeing how people here (and other forums) have mentioned that the German's will not make a mistake like the British at LHR T5. How that backfired.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinedeltamartin From Sweden, joined Dec 2010, 1061 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20400 times:

Very weird situation. Let's see what happens to my scheduled (short) connection at BER on June 17th with AB, I guess we'll have to go via TXL instead.

[Edited 2012-05-08 04:50:20]

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20303 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 3):
And the costs... Tax money it will be, I guess.
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 23):
This will be investigated, of course.

Pheew, I don't want to be in the shoes of the Consulting Engineer or in the shoes of the Contractor for the ventilation system. For sure there is a financial damage and they will make these two parties reliable. Aaah, and just for the record: the Client is never ever wrong. If something goes wrong it's the mistake of the designer or the contractors or both of them. As they say "When the sh... hits the fan"....   


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20241 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
When this clown Wowi replied to the reporter about 2 weeks ago (while visiting BER) that of course they will open because they have a resolution that it opens, I had mxy doubts.

To be honest, the major can only echo what those responsible have told him.

Quoting something (Reply 24):
They can move the temples of Abu Simbel, but they can't build Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie nor open a tiny airport it seems.

Well yes, how's your terminal 5 working by now?   



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19963 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
As they say "When the sh... hits the fan"....   

When it hits the non-functioning ventilation system...

:D
  


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19945 times:

According to Tagesspiegel, BER airport has now confirmed that there were also problems with the test runs. So, it seems like the smoke venting system is not the only headache for the airport managers.

"On last Thursday, a test run had to be aborted three times because of massive problems: door openers and other switches did not work properly, the baggage delivery system broke down and several check-in counters crashed.

Lufthansa seems to try to reschedule everything to TXL. IMO this will be impossible -- if I recall correctly, LH will operate 7 more a/c out of BER than currently out of TXL, and as I stated before:

There is just no free ramp space available at TXL.

Therefore, LH might even be hit harder than AB. AB planned to move its business from TXL to BER, with a slight increase in routes/frequencies. LH, on the other hand, planned to massively grow overnight in Berlin. For them, the SXF-business of Germanwings is to be merged with the TXL mainline business. This won't work now.

[Edited 2012-05-08 05:50:11]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19702 times:

First official press relase of AB (so far, German only):

They won't be able to operate as scheduled, because the waves of arriving/departing aircraft were designed according to the new facilities of BER airport. The next days will clarify how AB will cope with the situation.

http://www.airberlin.com/site/pressnews_dr.php?ID=3860&LANG=deu



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19302 times:

Now saying that the 3rd of August is the new proposed opening date. Quite a disaster for this already much-delayed project. Maybe I can sneak one more flight into Tegel after all.

http://www.bz-berlin.de/service/flug...erst-im-august-article1450936.html

(Article in German - sorry for those who don't speak it).

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19177 times:

Quoting Logos (Reply 42):
Now saying that the 3rd of August is the new proposed opening date.

As I read the source, it only states that the new opening date will be AFTER 3 August, which is when the school holidays end, and which corresponds to what was said during the press conference.

[Edited 2012-05-08 06:08:38]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19028 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 43):
As I read the source, it only states that the new opening date will be AFTER 3 August, which is when the school holidays end, and which corresponds to what was said during the press conference.

You're right - serves me right for going with just the headline from the B-Z and a cursory reading of the the first couple of paragraphs.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18652 times:

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 17):
Today they build a new runway in FRA and use it only for departures (in contradiction to the german phrase, which describes the mentality quite good: "keine halben Sahen machen" - don't do things by halves).

The new runway is used for landings only, not for departures, and since there is one runway for departures only, fully busy, this makes sense.

But this said, to be honest I didn't expect anything else but chaos. Berlin is a black hole for money earned in the rest of Germany. Now another round of this daily farce of a so called city...


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 46, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18574 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
But we still build all the nice cars that you island dwellers buy.

Actually, I drive a Japanese car for its reliability more than anything else.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 38):
Quoting something (Reply 24):
They can move the temples of Abu Simbel, but they can't build Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie nor open a tiny airport it seems.

Well yes, how's your terminal 5 working by now?

Not the point. German engineering enjoys the best reputation throughout the world and it's held to different standards. When you're at the top, people will scrutinize your every move. Kanye West has a few songs on the matter.

Such a dilettantish mess up tarnishes an immaculate record and does greater damage than just the financial losses to the airport and airlines, in the same sense that Airbus' A380 issues have cost them a great deal of credibility - with the caveat that the competition isn't any better. But Germany isn't Italy.. yet.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From Italy, joined May 2010, 140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18174 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 45):
But this said, to be honest I didn't expect anything else but chaos. Berlin is a black hole for money earned in the rest of Germany. Now another round of this daily farce of a so called city...

To be fair, Germany's recent history has been dotted with a variety of farcical episodes that don't involve Berlin. Corruption, incompetence, failure, you name it. Perhaps we as a community could broaden our horizons to consider that Berlin has seen plenty of successes over the past 20 years and its involvement in any given matter does not automatically lead to that matter's complete and utter demise at the expense of the ever-high-and-mighty rest of Germany.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17902 times:

Somehow I am not surprised...  
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 3):
What about the airlines? How is this organized? How much will AB/LH lose just because there won't be a working hub airport by 3 June? What about pax who are already booked on connecting flights? TXL just cannot handle connections!!!

The question is, how many of the new ops had AB / LH really scheduled to start from day 1 of the airport opening? Or had they planned a gradual move (shift existing ops first, then grow). If it is a significant amount then they were too optimistic... while it is not their fault, the risk of a delay in the opening was well known...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
I hope they can keep TXL open until the new one is ready, because it might be law that TXL has to close June 3trd. If that happens Germany would be laughing stock all over the world and I would alugh MFAO

Such a situation should hopefully be impossible, but applying the "logic" of the Berlin airport "strategy", I would not be surprised if it did happen.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17837 times:

You may have a very nice wide broad view of the things from so far away, but from inside Germany, if you ever have to do with any institution based in Berlin, starting with Deutsche Rentenversicherung which loose all of your documents every three years and then require you to send them again and again, the experience will be different.

Berlin still is full of little dictators who do not understand their work as service, but as "Obrigkeit", which can never fail, no matter how wrong they are - that explains to me that it is typical that such a mess is not acknowledged and worked on in time. Most institutions I had contact with in Berlin still feel like they are in Kaiserzeit, if they have an office in Bonn better contact that office. When I see how much money still is going to Berlin, how the infrastructure in Western Germany is falling apart with no money left for maintenance here while luxury temples are build there, you might see my point.


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17633 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 10):

I hope all those who had booked your travel can get refunds/reschedulings.

Mostly reschedulings, at least

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 14):
The airport must open in 2012. As far as I know, TXL will be without a licence from Jan 1. 2013 and this cannot be changed easily. My guess is that they will open with effect winter schedule.

until January   

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 45):
But this said, to be honest I didn't expect anything else but chaos. Berlin is a black hole for money earned in the rest of Germany. Now another round of this daily farce of a so called city...

I wouldn't attribute the failure of the executing companies to the city of Berlin.


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17129 times:

Airevents, who was organizing two of the farewell-flights from TXL, meanwhile have sent out eMail explaining each passengers options for these flights that, understandably, will not take into air on 02-JUN.

What to do with the A.net Meeting in Berlin foreseen for that weekend still needs to be discussed in the respective thread in forum "non Av".
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineBlue100 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16941 times:

Interesting news... I'm currently scheduled to fly into BER on July 2nd with AF. If BER isn't open at that time, what is the likelihood that AF will have to reschedule their flights to Berlin? I ask since I'm currently booked to have a 2 hour layover in CDG but I wonder if being forced to fly from another airport will impact the ability to maintain any planned schedule changes.

User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16786 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 48):
The question is, how many of the new ops had AB / LH really scheduled to start from day 1 of the airport opening? Or had they planned a gradual move (shift existing ops first, then grow). If it is a significant amount then they were too optimistic... while it is not their fault, the risk of a delay in the opening was well known...

Concerning AB, I think LAX is the only new route, and it will be launched on 11 May anyway. Of course, AB needs a well-working hub for its connecting passengers, but there won't be a considerable growth "overnight" on June 3. Here the aforementioned press release, now also in English:
http://www.airberlin.com/en-DE/site/pressnews_dr.php?ID=3861&LANG=eng

quote: Hartmut Mehdorn, CEO airberlin, said: “We have to work around the change of plan, which presents us with a huge challenge. It presents immense logistical problems for all involved and will also cause additional costs which have yet to be calculated.” [...] The system is exactly tailored to the conditions at BER and cannot simply be put into operation at Tegel Airport. quote ends


With LH, this is a totally different story. From TXL, mainline operations include the following international destinations:
Budapest, London-Heathrow, Milan-Linate, Moscow-Domodedovo, Paris-Charles de Gaulle

From BER airport, it is planned to serve the following additional destinations, all of them right from the start:
Barcelona, Bastia, Beirut, Bergen, Birmingham, Bologna, Bucharest-Henri Coanda, Catania, Dubrovnik, Geneva, Helsinki, Istanbul-Atatürk, Izmir, Lyon, Malaga, Manchester, Nice, Oslo-Gardermoen, Palma de Mallorca, Reykjavik-Keflavík, Rome-Fiumicino, Split, Stockholm-Arlanda, Tel Aviv-Ben Gurion, Valencia, Vienna, Westerland/Sylt, Zadar, Zagreb.

Many of these new destinations are currently operated by 4U out of SXF. This is where I see the main problem, because IMO there isn't enough space at TXL to accomodate the additional 6 LH aircraft, and flight connections would be nearly impossible (and LH is already selling connecting flight tickets via BER).

It's just such a mess.

[Edited 2012-05-08 08:04:48]

[Edited 2012-05-08 08:06:06]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16595 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 50):
I wouldn't attribute the failure of the executing companies to the city of Berlin.

I think the City of Berlin and its Mayor are the only ones to blame...

SailorOrion


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 55, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16592 times:

Quoting Blue100 (Reply 52):
Interesting news... I'm currently scheduled to fly into BER on July 2nd with AF. If BER isn't open at that time, what is the likelihood that AF will have to reschedule their flights to Berlin? I ask since I'm currently booked to have a 2 hour layover in CDG but I wonder if being forced to fly from another airport will impact the ability to maintain any planned schedule changes.

Going by the reports, it will take at least another 2-3 months for BER to open. If you're flying into Berlin on July 2nd, you'll fly into TXL. How AF adjusts the schedules remains to be seen, but I would presume they'll just adhere to their current schedule into TXL. While I can't vouch for the validity, I'd go by that for reference.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 56, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15871 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Articles are now coming out:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...rport-berlin-idUSLNE84701620120508

This is a shame. Berlin would benefit tremendously from having a multi-runway hub airport. I pine for some of the earlier concepts where BER would have become a 24/7 3-runway airport. IMHO, that is what the city needs for 20 years of growth. Cest la vie.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 15):

What I am hearing is that it will be impossible for airlines to operate according to schedule from 3 June if BER is not open.

   This is far too late for such a major delay. I understand safety is 1st. But this is going to be an operational disaster. Both *A and OW will be hit hard where it hurts: the wallet.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 39):
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
As they say "When the sh... hits the fan"....   

When it hits the non-functioning ventilation system...

That odor will persist.    About 2 to 3 months apparently.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 53):
Many of these new destinations are currently operated by 4U out of SXF. This is where I see the main problem, because IMO there isn't enough space at TXL to accomodate the additional 6 LH aircraft, and flight connections would be nearly impossible (and LH is already selling connecting flight tickets via BER).

Ouch... this will hurt LH.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 57, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15394 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 34):
Also, the non-opening of BER / non-closure of TXL means an ATC problem as the regulations concerning the then-valid flight paths are worthless now.

I know that the new flight paths nhave to be "official", can these simply be postponed until the real opening day?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 38):
To be honest, the major can only echo what those responsible have told him.

Yes, but he put himself as the front figure and he screwed Berlin out of THF by manipulating the referendum. This defeat only serves him right. He has the political responsibility and there have been a lot of mdecisions along the construction, extremely low budgets etc. -. What happened today will not be the end of the line.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 47):
To be fair, Germany's recent history has been dotted with a variety of farcical episodes that don't involve Berlin. Corruption, incompetence, failure, you name it.

Can you enlighten me? I mean, OK, not everything is running as smooth as it could be, but at least our industry runs perfetc as long as politicians stay out of it

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
That odor will persist. About 2 to 3 months apparently.

I think it's a smoke ventilation system, apparantly the world's largest. After what happened in DUS some years ago these are mandatory and have to be state of the art.


Interesting development, the least affected will be the LCCs which reswently operate at SXF, they simply carry on business as usual.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15271 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 54):
I think the City of Berlin and its Mayor are the only ones to blame...

Any specific reason? Or is this personal dislike?


User currently onlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 35
Reply 59, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14938 times:

A question bit off topic: I saw on a picture the new air-bridges off BER. Why does such a new airport not have glass walls on the bridges? Here in ZRH all new gates (E and B) have glass bridges which is much more convenient an nicer for the passengers? (Ok I agree it is not necessary but lovely and makes a good impression of the airport when you arrive.)

User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 60, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14925 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 58):
Any specific reason? Or is this personal dislike?

Both, first of all I hate him with a passion. Second, this project is his baby, so he is responsible if something goes wrong.
Remember, a good leader "shares the credit when things go wrong and takes the blame when things go right".

SailorOrion


User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14843 times:

^ I am sorry for you. Not just for your hate, but also for the fact you seem to have forgotten that the single-airport was initiated by the Diepgen administration.

@Unflug: Definitely. Congrats to the usual Berlin- and homophobic suspects (as the clown above) with the THF-nostalgia for this chance to copy-and-paste what they write all the time the topic BER or Berlin comes up. Must feel satisfying. While this short-term opening cancelation is a major blow and efinitely a P.R. desaster and an operational challenge, the consequences speculated in this thread seem to be rather exaggerated:

- BVG and DB have already stated that they will just continue their current schedules to connect TXL and SXF to the city center
- most of the Airlines did not change frequencies and flying times to BER anyway, so they will be able to either continue their current schedule or to operate the new schedules from the old airports
- AB is claiming it will pose problems, but they only have added a few flights after the BER-opening so far and most of the schedules are pretty similar to now
- LH will have most problems. Even though they sold connections through BER as well, they don't really have hub waves, so I could imagine the following scenario: LH continues to fly the current flights plus a few, maybe one or two, of the new planes from TXL. The rest of the new planes (actually switch-overs from 4U) are deployed to SXF where they'll use the underused Germanwings terminal. Connections from TXL to these flights are rebooked through FRA, MUC or DUS.

[Edited 2012-05-08 10:21:26]

User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 62, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14830 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 59):
Why does such a new airport not have glass walls on the bridges?

It could be due to cost or - wait for it   - fire regulations.  

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 61):
Congrats to the usual Berlin- and homophobic suspects

I beg your pardon?

[Edited 2012-05-08 10:06:56]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14660 times:

DIA (KDEN) opened over a YEAR late due primarily to a baggage system that never worked. They are still working out repercussions of that - UA just got released out of unused space related to that last week.

17 years later and the airport is a success and the debacle of the delayed opening has faded. Most of the tweaking of the original design is done and they are focusing on the future.


User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14639 times:

@ aloges: Feel adressed? The reason for people who hate (not dislike or something) and demand the resignation of someone who has been re-elected twice almost everytime even his name is mentioned is pretty transparent. And yes, the "nothing in Berlin ever gets right" (as can be seen in various forms in this thread) is exactly a provinicial hatred for Berlin.

[Edited 2012-05-08 10:18:34]

User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14533 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 63):
17 years later and the airport is a success and the debacle of the delayed opening has faded. Most of the tweaking of the original design is done and they are focusing on the future.

All will eventually be forgotten, at least by everyone except a.netters with a long memory.   However, the damage will only get worse over the next couple of months and it's anybody's guess whether or not BER will be able to cope with future demand.

Some of the reactions are of course due to the mayor's anti-airport stance... I suppose that many of us still remember him dancing on THF's grave, as it were.

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 64):
@ aloges: Feel adressed?

No. Here's why: 2 Gay Marines Kiss....but Some Dont Like It (by 727LOVER May 7 2012 in Non Aviation)

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
don't care which two consenting adults kiss
don't care which gender they're attracted to
wish that homophobes would keep their problem to themselves or have it treated

I don't exactly care if other members love or hate Berlin or its mayor, my sole interest in this thread is the chaotic aviation politics of Berlin. Let's get back to that and forget about your insolent allegation of homophobia.

[Edited 2012-05-08 10:29:54]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14448 times:

^ Well, then most likely you were not adressed as well. Strange you felt the need to comment that, though.

User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8771 posts, RR: 42
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14420 times:

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 66):
Strange you felt the need to comment that, though.

I simply like to point out nonsense when I see it.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14449 times:

I do not have a personal problem with Berlin, just that the South of Germany has to finance an airport project which almost HALVES existing airport capacity in Berlin is insane.

SailorOrion


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 69, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14370 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 59):
Why does such a new airport not have glass walls on the bridges?

As aloges already said, highly likely that glass is more expensive and since they had to keep the tight and tiny budget of 2,5 billion € glass was no option.

I mean, who cares about the first impression passengers get when arriving at the capital city of a rich country like Germany.

It would not surprise me when the real reason or the present desaster is cost related as well.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 70, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14387 times:

Air Berlin's shares (AB1000) fell 5.00 % today while Lufti is down 1.81 %
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 71, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13913 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
After what happened in DUS some years ago these are mandatory and have to be state of the art.

Do you have a link? I no so little of the event; any links are appreciated.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
the least affected will be the LCCs which reswently operate at SXF, they simply carry on business as usual.

What about FR? I thought they were moving on? In other words, they have no forward ticket sales from SXF after the move. Or did MOL just blow hot air?   
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=5115373

But then they were opening new Berlin routes earlier this year:
http://www.theairdb.com/news/20120128120-ryanair.html

What was FR's final decision with BER?

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 60):
Both, first of all I hate him with a passion.

Not a good way to engage others in a discussion. While I agree with your assessment of a good leader, let's focus on why the delay is happening and the consequences. If there are aviation related reasons (TXL), then fine, bring that up. Unless it impacts transportation (Even ground transportation is always related to the airport's growth), tourism to Berlin (relates to the airport), business growth in the region (again, relates to the airport), I really have no interest in the local politics, nor would you with my local mayor. Please reply with something that educates.

Educate me on the mayor's impact on BER's growth and planning. Did the mayor fight for or against the night curfew? Did the mayor fight for or against the 3-runway concept? Did the mayor help or hinder ground transport links to BER? Did the mayor help or hinder AB joining OW? Did the mayor enter negotiations with MOL? Please, some airport/airline pertinent information.

I do find it odd that so close to opening we're looking at a long delay. The move was going to be (to myself) the most exciting airport logistical challenge since Stapleton was closed. I was rather looking forward to the a.net reports on the ground handling vehicle convoys and such. It is rare for a city to give up an airport to move to the new one.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13873 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 60):
Both, first of all I hate him with a passion. Second, this project is his baby, so he is responsible if something goes wrong.

Wrong on two accounts. It is Berlin's and Brandendenburg's airport, so Mr. Platzeck plays a role, too. Besides, as somebody else has just mentioned: I too think the idea for BBI was originally that of Mr. Diepgen or his government.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 69):
I mean, who cares about the first impression passengers get when arriving at the capital city of a rich country like Germany.

I would have preferred glass as well, but most of the glass would have been occupied by advertising posters within minutes anyway. And honestly: The first impression of a country is not exactly that of a bridge at the airport. The terminal perhaps, but not the bridge.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 73, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13597 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 72):
Do you have a link? I no so little of the event; any links are appreciated.

google Duesseldorf airport fire, you get all the info. The terminal burned down with I think it was 17 death.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 72):
What about FR? I thought they were moving on?

May be they stop at SXF and continue to sell from BER ? It is the same location although. The three letter code changes.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 72):
Did the mayor fight for or against the night curfew? Did the mayor fight for or against the 3-runway concept? Did the mayor help or hinder ground transport links to BER? Did the mayor help or hinder AB joining OW? Did the mayor enter negotiations with MOL?

Th mayor is FOR a night curfew,

The mayor did not advocate a 3 runway concept and I doubt he ever would. Unlikely it will fall into his term ayhow..

The mayor is in favor of ground transport, BER will be reached by 4 rapid trains per hour, plus eventually long distance, road connections are excellent

the mayor is not involved in such matters at AB joinging OW, that's private enterprise

I am afraid that MOL would not be a good conversation partner to MOL   but again, that is private enterprise. The mayor might, on oversaes trips, invite airlines to fly to BER.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 73):
The first impression of a country is not exactly that of a bridge at the airport. The terminal perhaps, but not the bridge.

In a way, yes. Arriving at LHR with all the HSBC ads they slam into your face you might as well be in HKG. Personally I do not like these cages without sunlight. Too many airports where the first daylight impression is after the hotel or rental car bus has left the complex.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 74, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13353 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 72):
Educate me on the mayor's impact on BER's growth and planning. Did the mayor fight for or against the night curfew? Did the mayor fight for or against the 3-runway concept? Did the mayor help or hinder ground transport links to BER? Did the mayor help or hinder AB joining OW? Did the mayor enter negotiations with MOL? Please, some airport/airline pertinent information.

I do not have information about all those points, but from all I know (please correct me if I am wrong):
-he strongly opposed any idea to keep THF open
-he strongly opposed any idea to keep TXL open
-he is not exactly helping the reopening of the "Dresdner Bahn", which would cut train transit times roughly by 50%. Background. This railway track was opened over 100 years ago and is currently only used for S-Bahn services, which in Berlin run another power system than the rest of Germany (third rail side mounted vs overhead). The "normal" tracks are in part still present, but have been mothballed decades ago. Reactivating those could speed the travel time to the airport and to Dresden by at least 10 minutes. Note, trip time from Berlin to Dresden in 1934 was 1:40, in 2012 2:09 with the same amount of stops. Some people demand that (parts of) the reactivated track should be put into a tunnel, Wowereit supports them, most likely because he has lived in the area for some time. Of course, he (aka Berlin) is not willing to PAY FOR the tunnel.

On the other hand:
-he supported the idea of a third runway
-he strongly opposes an 8-hour curfew

SailorOrion


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 75, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12710 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
-he supported the idea of a third runway

you sure? Why then was the existing runway at SXF decommissioned ?



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
-he strongly opposes an 8-hour curfew

but still advocates a curfew which is 2400 to 0500 - that in a city which serves booze 24/7/365


Fellas, the airport has to be operational by December 31, that's when the TXL permit expires.

Let's keep the fingers crossed.....

   



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11701 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 71):
I do find it odd that so close to opening we're looking at a long delay.

During the press conference they mentioned that the involved firms say they might even make the certification before the June 3rd deadline but that they decided that that was too much of a gamble. So the delay for this safety cert may end up being very short (*).

But they don't want to have the revised opening date in the middle of the vacation season, so its moved to some point at the end of summer.


* If they meet the deadline after all it will be interesting to see how that affects the lawsuits over damages that are likely to follow.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
-he strongly opposed any idea to keep THF open

THF is open for kites, although AFAIK there is a night curfew there too.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11450 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
-he strongly opposed any idea to keep THF open
-he strongly opposed any idea to keep TXL open

Please note that both ideas would have delayed the opening of BER, and by far more than just a few months. The official planning approval for the new airport was only granted under the condition that it would be the only airport of the Berlin-Brandenburg region (which is the only possibility that the other condition, that less people be affected by noise than before, could be fulfilled). If the politicians had decided to keep TXL or THF open, planning for any new airport would have had to be redone from scratch.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 76):

During the press conference they mentioned that the involved firms say they might even make the certification before the June 3rd deadline but that they decided that that was too much of a gamble. So the delay for this safety cert may end up being very short (*).

If I got tonight's special feature on Berlin's public TV station correctly, BER tried to get a special operating permit on 4 April, which would have allowed the airport to open even without the smoke ventilation system being fully operational. This was denied by the local construction supervision.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineOlafW From Germany, joined Jul 2009, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11194 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 77):
If I got tonight's special feature on Berlin's public TV station correctly, BER tried to get a special operating permit on 4 April, which would have allowed the airport to open even without the smoke ventilation system being fully operational. This was denied by the local construction supervision.

And rightfully so. At least there seems to be some learning effect from the Düsseldorf events.

What I would really like to know is what is the original cause for the delayed opening. I work in the fire protection industry myself and we are always blamed when something is too late. Now most of the times this is not related to the fire protection or ventilation system, but to the fact that some construction work was not on time before that. Most of the fire protection stuff has to be installed in the end, so if a building is not ready at the right time, this doesn't necessarily have an immediate effect on the time frame. But the delayed beginning of the installation of the following parts most likely results in delayed finishing. And then it's clear who is blamed even if they have worked in a shorter time than originally planned.


User currently offlineL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1685 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11157 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have reservations into and out of BER in October, and I have a non-refundable pre-paid reservation for the new hotel at the airport. If BER isn't open by then, is it likely that the hotel will refund my money?

Bob Bradley



Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 80, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10848 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 79):
I have reservations into and out of BER in October, and I have a non-refundable pre-paid reservation for the new hotel at the airport. If BER isn't open by then, is it likely that the hotel will refund my money?

I don't think so - why should they if they are already open? It may be slightly more inconvenient, but generally speaking, there is no reason why passengers cannot visit Berlin being based at a hotel near BER.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10732 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 80):
I don't think so - why should they if they are already open? It may be slightly more inconvenient, but generally speaking, there is no reason why passengers cannot visit Berlin being based at a hotel near BER.

Presumably the Sbahn connection isn't yet running, or is it?


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 892 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10362 times:

The comparison with the LHR T5 opening fiasco made in earlier posts is I suppose inevitable - so lets look what happened at T5.

In its first full year of ops it handled over 24million passengers and over 26million last year.

Rightly or wrongly [and there is a fairly vociferous thread elsewhere on a.net on the subject so we don't need to get into that] it has recently been voted best airport terminal in the world.

BER will do the same - it will overcome its embarrassment and rise to be a successful and [hopefully] much loved airport - it will just take a bit of time! Not that that is any consolation to the many businesses and passengers who are going to be hugely inconvenienced in the short term.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 83, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10264 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting OlafW (Reply 78):
And rightfully so. At least there seems to be some learning effect from the Düsseldorf events.

Let me be clear, I do not blame the local certification requirements. If a large public structure has a smoke requirement due to a prior disaster, that is a lesson learned. 90% of aviation requirements are fixing issues that killed prior people (e.g., fatigue analysis). I'm all for learning from prior mistakes. I do not blame the local certification agencies for denying an opening due to an unmet safety requirement.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
google Duesseldorf airport fire,

I found a pdf of the report, thanks. I see a main issue was actually smoke detection to know there was a fire. I hope BER has flame retardant insulation.  
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
Th mayor is FOR a night curfew,
Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
On the other hand:
-he supported the idea of a third runway
-he strongly opposes an 8-hour curfew

Ok, is he for or against, or was he a politician with the curfew? Sad BER wasn't built earlier with 24/7 and a 3rd runway. That would have been a nice long term regional economic benefit.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
In a way, yes. Arriving at LHR with all the HSBC ads they slam into your face you might as well be in HKG.

   What hub airport doesn't greet one with banking ads?  
Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 74):
he is not exactly helping the reopening of the "Dresdner Bahn", which would cut train transit times roughly by 50%. Background. This railway track was opened over 100 years ago and is currently only used for S-Bahn services, which in Berlin run another power system than the rest of Germany (third rail side mounted vs overhead). The "normal" tracks are in part still present, but have been mothballed decades ago. Reactivating those could speed the travel time to the airport and to Dresden by at least 10 minutes.

That I do not understand. Transportation builds jobs and a mayor should be for jobs.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 76):
But they don't want to have the revised opening date in the middle of the vacation season, so its moved to some point at the end of summer.

Ah... Not worth the risk of another delay. That makes sense. I must retract my last statement based on further information.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRVV2011 From Canada, joined May 2011, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9170 times:

A typically German discussion. So much drama over...well nothing really. Catastrophe! Disaster! What will the world think!? Not much really. Sh*t happens. Get over it.

User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8029 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 60):
Both, first of all I hate him with a passion. Second, this project is his baby, so he is responsible if something goes wrong. Remember, a good leader "shares the credit when things go wrong and takes the blame when things go right".

The first statement is somehow sad, but nothing I want to discuss further.

The second is wrong, the decision for this airport and the closing of the other airports was taken several years before he became mayor of Berlin.

The third: a good leader should take responsibility for his decisions and the consequences of his decisions. If something goes wrong outside of his range of influence I wouldn't expect him to take blame. In the case at hand I haven't seen enough information to decide...


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7993 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 79):
I have reservations into and out of BER in October, and I have a non-refundable pre-paid reservation for the new hotel at the airport. If BER isn't open by then, is it likely that the hotel will refund my money?

First of all, contact the hotel. They will tell you.

Secondly, are you referring to the Steigenberger? I've heard that they won't open if the airport isn't open, rebooking guests to other hotels of the chain.

Quoting RVV2011 (Reply 84):
A typically German discussion. So much drama over...well nothing really. Catastrophe! Disaster! What will the world think!? Not much really. Sh*t happens. Get over it.

With "disaster", I was rather referring to the re-organizing work that needs to be done now that the opeing was postponed only 3 weeks prior to the planned date. This affects airlines, ground workers, non-aviation employees like shop workers, the air traffic control (some controllers were not to make the move to BER, but retire on 2 June), transport companies contracted for the TXL-BER move, the police (35 km of autobahn were to be closed overnight, with a threat of disruptions by protesters), hotels, the public trasnport system..... and the list goes on.

[Edited 2012-05-09 00:26:48]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 87, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7891 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 85):
The second is wrong, the decision for this airport and the closing of the other airports was taken several years before he became mayor of Berlin.

Such decisions can always be revised when new data is on hand. The 1995 decision was based on figures which were outdated 2000. Wowereit also manipulated a referendum about THF, which would have been won in West berlin but was defeated by the East berlin voters who had been campaigned with lies like they have to pay for the super riche so theya cna fly their business jets to THF. Not mentioning that this means income for THF AND Berlin.

Both the Berlin Mayor (who is also the prime minister of the land Berlin) and the prime minister of the land Brandenburg are members of the supervisory board of "Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg". Members of the supervisory board are not enganged in the operaitonal business.

They can't be blamed directly for the delay and they would not have had any chance to intervene or change the present situation. There is no reason for resignation - from what anyhow? Still, the whole Berlin Airport saga is a stoiry of policitcal mis-conception, wishful thinking and mistakes based on ideology. The biggest mistake of all was to close the other airports. At least THF should have been kept open, with the provision that no commercial service should be allowed. That would not have been a competition with BER at all.

It only fits the story that there will be a further delay now and hopefully they manage to get all systems certified within this year because we would have a real problem then. I do not know if the legal procedures allow a prolongation of the operating permit for TXL which expires in December.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7353 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 71):
What was FR's final decision with BER?

Good question... they still seem to be offering flights from there, so it looks like they're staying, at least for the summer season(?). We shall see later on as FR does not like to operate from constrained airports and terminal space at BER will be at a premium. On the other hand there is no short-term available airport alternative around BER, Magdeburg is too far even for FR standards.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 77):
The official planning approval for the new airport was only granted under the condition that it would be the only airport of the Berlin-Brandenburg region (which is the only possibility that the other condition, that less people be affected by noise than before, could be fulfilled). If the politicians had decided to keep TXL or THF open, planning for any new airport would have had to be redone from scratch.

The planning is flawed and the projections upon which it is based became outdated a looong time ago. There has been plenty of time (I'd say the last 10 years) to modify the plan, and nothing had to be redone as BER would have been complementary to either THF or TXL. And when talking about an infrastructure that should(?) serve the city for the next several decades, it is better to accept a delay and redo the plan than to stubbornly continue with a flawed one.

Quoting RVV2011 (Reply 84):
So much drama over...well nothing really. Catastrophe! Disaster! What will the world think!? Not much really. Sh*t happens. Get over it

It's not so much this single event (at least to me), but rather the accumulation of mishaps, mistakes and short-sightedness in the overall Berlin airport strategy that have occurred since the 1990's, of which this is but the latest episode. And in a way it is kind of a big deal as the airport was to open in just 3 weeks, and now a several month delay is announced?


User currently offlineJCS From Netherlands, joined Jun 2004, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7329 times:

Sad. I'm supposed to fly to BER on June 5th.  

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 90, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Desaster is the right word and r2rho has outlined who and what will be affected by the delay. I am sure that this list is incomplete.

Now they still don't have a clue when an opening can be scheduled. Some mention early August, which is in the middle of the holidy period, actually Belrin school holidays end around that date. IMHO, there are two dates each year when such a move can take place, and those are oin March and October, when schedules go from winter to summer and vv.

If they are in their right mind, they should now plan vor October 30 or whenever the winter schedules / time change takes place. That gives enough time to complete whatever needs to be completed (hopefully). The worst scenario now would be that they set a date which again cannot be met.

Meanwhile, the capacity at 2 airports, TXL and SXF (which is the site of the new BER) are operational and offer , between them, enough slots to handle the traffic.Only at TXL it get's a bit tight, but may be the military ramp on the other side of the runway system could help out with some stands. I mean, in special situation like this it should at least be considered.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 91, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 88):
On the other hand there is no short-term available airport alternative around BER, Magdeburg is too far even for FR standards.

What about FNB ?
150 km using the B96.
Perfect distance for FR in order to avoid that pax can spot the city they intend to visit during approach - and to call it "Berlin North"
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 92, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

ha, why not Cochsted? They wanted to call themselves Berlin South in order to get massive FR business. BER airport sued and won.

Anyhow, 150 km is too far and there's enough space at TXL if the military cooperates and that is decided on the top command chain, the mayor has to talk to the Chancellor and the Defense Minister. It only needs enough bus drivers with ramp clarance and buses. That can be done and arranged in three weeks time.,

When the fire destroyed DUS such decisions and organisation was ad hoc and most traffic moved to CGN


On the funny side:

The new airport will be renamed, instead of "Willy-Brandt-Airport" it will now be called

"Willy-Brandtschutz-Airport"


(Brandschutt - fire protection)

[Edited 2012-05-09 03:56:43]


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6543 times:

The Morgenpost has an article today shedding a tiny bit more light on the cause of this (but is mostly a rehash).

http://www.morgenpost.de/flughafen-b...lughafens-BER-gescheitert-ist.html

It is interesting that the equipment was installed without its certification (TÜV), which probably would have gone unnoticed had it worked properly. According to the article the baggage handling system isn't ready, either.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):
On the funny side:

The new airport will be renamed, instead of "Willy-Brandt-Airport" it will now be called

"Willy-Brandtschutz-Airport"


That's pretty funny, actually.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 94, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Normally, such a project must be accompanied by a dedicated team supervising the contractors. Fraport had such a team when building the new landing runway and it worked quite successfully. No delays, everything on time or earlier and the budget had been kept as well.

I cannot imagine that BER did not have such a team and they should have intervened when parts or steering systems had been installed that had no TUEV certification because these parts resp. software was "tailor made". "Assuming that it will be" is not good enough. Assumption is the mother of all f++k ups, which has been proven again.

The interesting part is yet to come, how many millions the whole project will be over budget. According to thr wishful thinking politicians, both prime ministers, this is not allowed to happen since they have a resolution.that the project will stay in budget.

Na denne.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6402 times:

Quoting JCS (Reply 89):
Sad. I'm supposed to fly to BER on June 5th.  

I'm scheduled to fly in July 18th and out on the 25th and I actually don't mind the delay.

I'm flying LH (BD operated), so my flight will probably me rerouted to TXL and must confess, I really like TXL's convenience for someone who, like me, does not have a connection. Not to mention how much I'm going to save on the taxi fare.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6391 times:

Another AB press release:
http://www.airberlin.com/en-DE/site/pressnews_dr.php?ID=3866&LANG=eng

As expected, all flight bookings remain valid, but will be operated out of TXL.

Quote:
Hartmut Mehdorn, CEO airberlin, pointed out the particular challenges which now confront the airline. “The situation is extremely tricky, as we have to contact at least one million passengers individually to inform them about their airport of departure or arrival. In addition, airberlin’s expanded and more ambitious flight schedule, planned for BER, now has to be handled using the old infrastructure at Tegel Airport, in the summer season, of all times,” said Mehdorn. “We must apologise to our passengers for this temporary arrangement; we ourselves are finding it difficult to live with.”

So far, nothing from LH yet?



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 97, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6386 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):

The new airport will be renamed, instead of "Willy-Brandt-Airport" it will now be called

"Willy-Brandtschutz-Airport"

Funny.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):
(Brandschutt - fire protection)

Funny too, albeit in a different meaning. Freudian slip? 

Brandschutz - fire protection
Brandschutt - fire debris



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 98, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6293 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 97):

Funny too, albeit in a different meaning. Freudian slip?

involuntary comic, I admit.  

I am usually quick with the send key, I admit that sometimes I do not check the spelling and the t and the z are neighbours on the keyboard. But, yes OK, a good one.

As said earlier, the winners are the low cost airlines operating at SXF. For them, there is little change, they can run their program at the old facilities and certainly at the old conditions.

AB is the biggest loser with Lh close behind. But what worked at DUS in the mid 90s, setting up tents, should work at TXL as well. Operationally, the transit passengers could be channeled through a tent. Even a small duty free could be set up there. One tent for AB and one for LH should do it. If 50% of thze usually empty military ramp is used for GA and/ or point to point flights , TXL should be OK. There's nothing some imagination and flexibility cannot handle.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 99, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6048 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):
When the fire destroyed DUS such decisions and organisation was ad hoc and most traffic moved to CGN

Yep, I know as I was affected by the fire. About a week after the fire I was flying "home" from VRA but our flights's destination (running 7 hours late after having depleted VRA-airport's stock of Canadian Molson) was not clear until mid way of the flight. We still flew to CGN, which was overwhelmed by the traffic, even though DUS has started to accept flights again.
The airport bus to Cologne Main Railway station was running for free, IIRC, so only had to purchase a train ticket Cologne to Düsseldorf (yep, such tickets are being sold, albeit only onway  ) for a few DEM from where my Rail&Fly-ticket was valid.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 92):
ha, why not Cochsted?

CSO already has some FR traffic - and FNB (via B96) is closer to Berlin than CSO.
FR also could advertise FNB as gateway to the touristic destinations on the shores of the Baltic Sea (Usedom, Rügen) AND also to Berlin.

P.S. I do not fly FR personally. Actually, for some miraculous reason, my Router is blocking FR's website on each computer or browser I use (but it works on the same setup when funneling through a company-VPN).
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 100, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

Just reading in a Sunday paper that actually only 52% of the new terminbal / runway that make up BER are finished and ready. Amazing.

There are detaills coming to light, such as halving the number of check-in counters by the move into the new terminal (no wonder they talked about setting up tents). It looks like they have set a goal of building this project with 2,5 billion € as budget and no cost overruns. That is in our today's world almost mission impossible and will lead inevtably to the present situation. Now it will be much more expensive, AB and LH have already said that they will send the bill for all additional costs they will have after june 3rd until the actual opening to "Flughafen berlin Brandenburg" which operates BER.. .

There could be some nasty new details coming up next week. There will be a low cost pier with one singe access security control. Will be fun in real live. The question comes up, why building a low cost pier with rudimentary service in first place? The shabby interior they have at the old SXF terminal, so they just as well they could have kept that.,

I mean, other airports, like CDG, have separate terminals for LCCs, so why can' t BER? This whole project is a mis-conception. Driven by politicians of all colors who do not have a clue about what they are doing, combined with wishful thinking.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 100):
Just reading in a Sunday paper that actually only 52% of the new terminbal / runway that make up BER are finished and ready. Amazing.

This is actually starting to make VIE's SkyLink (3 years late and 100%+ over budget) look less bad.


User currently offlineflyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 100):
It looks like they have set a goal of building this project with 2,5 billion € as budget and no cost overruns. That is in our today's world almost mission impossible and will lead inevtably to the present situation.

Do you mean that in today's world it's impossible to build an airport with 2,5 billion euro budget or it's impossible to make a budget that will hold? I'd expect that neither of these should be impossible, even in today's modern world (actually, we should have more advanced methods for calculating the cost than before). Though I must admit that I don't have any figure to compare the 2,5 billion euro figure to...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 103, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Depends on what has to be build. In Berlin it was a new runway, taxiways, upgrading an old runway including taxiways, a complete new apron, a complete new terminal building with wings that have not been in the original planning. One of these wings is for LCCs the other for legacy carriers I think it even includes building back an old runway instead of keeping that as a strategic reserve. .

I think that the rail and road connecitons came separately. All in all, this figure is rather old and it would be surprising that they are still in budget, especially since the construction has been delayed a couple of times due to legal dispute. The said amount is "political"., now we now that politics is anything, except reality. The June 3rd deadline was wishful thinking but had to be kept by all means, although one can read in the press now that doubts exist since December 2011 and serious doubts sine April.

Still, up until 2 o 3 weeks ago the mayor confirmed the deadline although as the chairman of the supervisory board he schould have had informaiton by that time about possible delays.

Now, each month delay is costing 15 million €, at least that's what politics say, again, this figure can be questioned just because of that. The figure does of course not include the claims from Lufthansa, Air Berlin, other carriers, from merchants etc. who will all see that their nadditional costs based on an opening date June 3rd will be recovered.

This can and will be easily an amount exceeding 100 million € .

I have said in several contributions over the years in this forum that the project is screwed up in many ways. I have questioned the opening date , so have others here. I really did not take too much expertise to be on the "winners" side.

The whole concept of a new airport, inclduing the closure of the existing 2 (SXF is the base of the new one) based on the mid/early 90s planning became obsolete when BER became an "in city" drawing people, especially young, from all over the world.

We have an existing 24 million pax/p.a., the new terminal is layed out for 27 million and no extension yet is planned. Even though the zoning has already provisionally taken an extension into the planning, there will be delaying law suits.

OK, 27 million means it can eventually handle 35 million without much addition, possibly. But if BER succeeds as a hub and AB stays in business, it will be crowded pretty soon.

The most easy way to get out of this mess would be, to refurbish the old terminal of the previous SXF and move low cost back there and improve the new low cost pier at the new terminal. That woulld be even financially OK since we have now passenger numbers which have not been part of the original planning.

Even keeping TXL open as a military (government flights) and GA airport without airline service would be OK., something like LBG.

However, alll these suggestions are rational, reflecting flexibly on a changed situatiom where the changes took place between 2000/2004 and today. We will however see a political "solution" which simply means , they will screw it up even more and dig themselves in deeper.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinespeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 17):
Today they build a new runway in FRA and use it only for departures

It was designed from the outset as a landing only runway, just like 18 is solely a departure runway... All by design. Not half-measures...



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinesteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 105, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5021 times:

Haven´t they planned already to build satellite buildings, like LHR T5b or c, west of the main terminal?
There is certainly enough space for that and that is actually the only possible direction of expansion in the new layout.
I still hope that, in due time, the airport will be a success.
Berlin is not gonna be a major hub anyway so growth might be limited even in the medium/long term.
A new satellite terminal (or 2) might increase airport capacity to 40 million with relative ease.
A third runway would be needed but if LHR can handle almost 70 mln pax per year with two runways, certainly BER can make 40.


User currently offlineL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1685 posts, RR: 9
Reply 106, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4821 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 86):
Quoting L1011 (Reply 79):I have reservations into and out of BER in October, and I have a non-refundable pre-paid reservation for the new hotel at the airport. If BER isn't open by then, is it likely that the hotel will refund my money?
First of all, contact the hotel. They will tell you.

Secondly, are you referring to the Steigenberger? I've heard that they won't open if the airport isn't open, rebooking guests to other hotels of the chain.


Yes, I am referring to the Steigenberger. I'll be flying into BER one night and out the next morning, so I figured that hotel would be the most convenient. But I can be flexible.



Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
User currently offlinestandby87 From Switzerland, joined Jul 2001, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 107, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4637 times:

Being an "anorak", I booked on what was supposed to be the last ever Swiss flight to Tegel, returning to Zurich via the new BER Airport.

To say I'm gutted is something of an understatement.
Never mind, at least I can get to Tegel easily enough on the way back home...


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 100):
Just reading in a Sunday paper that actually only 52% of the new terminbal / runway that make up BER are finished and ready. Amazing.

What they actually said was that only 52% of all processes were working flawlessly while the rest had problems that were to be compensated with temporary measures to not endanger the planned opening date.

link

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 103):
We have an existing 24 million pax/p.a., the new terminal is layed out for 27 million and no extension yet is planned. Even though the zoning has already provisionally taken an extension into the planning, there will be delaying law suits.

The extensions are already part of the Planfeststellungsbeschluß. So the legal uncertainty is as minimal as it gets.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 109, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting flyingAY (Reply 102):
Do you mean that in today's world it's impossible to build an airport with 2,5 billion euro budget or it's impossible to make a budget that will hold? I'd expect that neither of these should be impossible, even in today's modern world (actually, we should have more advanced methods for calculating the cost than before). Though I must admit that I don't have any figure to compare the 2,5 billion euro figure to...

Terminal 5 at LHR together with associated terminal aircraft stands and taxiways was budgeted at and actually cost £4.3 billion (euro 5.4 billion). T5's capacity is 30 million passengers per year. This is not dissimilar to the design capacity of BER. So it looks as if BER including ALL taxiways and runways was budgeted at less than half the cost of LHR T5.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 110, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 108):
What they actually said was that only 52% of all processes were working flawlessly while the rest had problems that were to be compensated with temporary measures to not endanger the planned opening date.

link

I would not trust the airport website, reports in the Sunday press mentioned that the low cost pier was and still is a construction site. When the message came some weeks ago that the put up temporary check-in counters, the alarm bells should have rund.

Now some even say that the opening will not take place this year which creates the problem, can TXL operate after Dec 31? The best and most optimistic will be Oct 31 / Nov 1st, with the winter timetable.



Quoting Wsp (Reply 108):
The extensions are already part of the Planfeststellungsbeschluß. So the legal uncertainty is as minimal as it gets.

Yes, and Snow White lives innocently with 7 dwarfs. STR21 was approved through all legal stages, parliament, courts, German rail has a title enabling them to build. Then came the self appointed protesters. The same vigilant protesting minority will pop up once the terminal extension starts construction.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 109):
£4.3 billion (euro 5.4 billion). T5's capacity is 30 million passengers per year.

Agreed. There are no figures available in Berlin where the costs actually stand. There are a lot of surprises still in the pipeling.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
Yes, and Snow White lives innocently with 7 dwarfs. STR21 was approved through all legal stages, parliament, courts, German rail has a title enabling them to build. Then came the self appointed protesters. The same vigilant protesting minority will pop up once the terminal extension starts construction

But anyway, Stuttgart 21 is currently being built. A "screaming, ranting minority" won't be able to prevent the construction of the satellite concourses. The important point stays: The plans have already been approved by the authorities.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 112, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 106):
Yes, I am referring to the Steigenberger. I'll be flying into BER one night and out the next morning, so I figured that hotel would be the most convenient. But I can be flexible.

Steigenberger reservation says they will not open before the opening of the airport. So they'll definitely have to change your booking if you are not flying into the new airport.


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
I would not trust the airport website, reports in the Sunday press mentioned that the low cost pier was and still is a construction site.

The website link is to the public broadcaster. And my point was not that one should trust the airport speaker but that you or your sources misreported what their 52% figure actually meant.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
When the message came some weeks ago that the put up temporary check-in counters, the alarm bells should have rund.

And then what? They should have stomped their feet? Or send in the mayor's secretary to help fix that certification issue?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
Now some even say that the opening will not take place this year which creates the problem, can TXL operate after Dec 31? The best and most optimistic will be Oct 31 / Nov 1st, with the winter timetable.

Apparently they will have a board meeting on Wednesday to try to find a new date.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
Yes, and Snow White lives innocently with 7 dwarfs. STR21 was approved through all legal stages, parliament, courts, German rail has a title enabling them to build. Then came the self appointed protesters. The same vigilant protesting minority will pop up once the terminal extension starts construction.

I am not sure how your reply addresses my point. You were blaming the government for not doing enough to secure the legal side of this, I pointed out that they set all the legal processes in motion long time ago and already have secured the zoning approval. What else could they have done but failed to do to minimize the legal uncertainty surrounding these extension terminals?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 110):
Agreed. There are no figures available in Berlin where the costs actually stand. There are a lot of surprises still in the pipeling.

The whole project including the management was tendered as work packages to private businesses. So "where the costs actually stand" is pretty clear, because the costs of the signed contracts can not exceed the budget of the GmbH that disburses the funds.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 114, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 113):
And then what? They should have stomped their feet? Or send in the mayor's secretary to help fix that certification issue?

Don't you have phons in berlin?

Quoting Wsp (Reply 113):
The website link is to the public broadcaster.

Yes, rbb almost looks like fbb. Fact is, 3 weeks before the attempted opening, 52 % of the buildings / installations had been approved / certified. Agreed, some may have been petty stuff which would not have been a stumbling stone for an opening, but fire protection is the top priority. And they knew it far longer than last week's Tuesday. Employing 700 people part time to close doors manually in case of an alarm is a joke. What would have been next? Bucket chains?

Quoting Wsp (Reply 113):
I am not sure how your reply addresses my point.

Even with a building permit there will be protests and court hearings. For a number of reasons, Bechstein Bats, rare birds who have suddenly been discovered breeding on exactly that location. It's Germany.





Quoting Wsp (Reply 113):
The whole project including the management was tendered as work packages to private businesses. So "where the costs actually stand" is pretty clear, because the costs of the signed contracts can not exceed the budget of the GmbH that disburses the fun

and that could be exactly the problem of the delays. No building is finbsihed in budget. There are inflation clauses in contracts. Companies that cannot do the work within budget will go broke, has happened at BBI. Find a new contractor and you are out of budget already.

Or, something needs to be done which has not been specified in the contract. happens every day and that's how contractors make their money. You will see that the total amount, without the costs of the delay, will be far greater than 2,5 billion.

The fire protection alone will be a nightmare financially.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 114):
Don't you have phons in berlin?

What? Frantic phone calls could have solved the problems?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 114):
Fact is, 3 weeks before the attempted opening, 52 % of the buildings / installations had been approved / certified

Can you link to a source for that fact. As I pointed out the only 52% figure that I found doesn't refer to buildings or installations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 114):
Even with a building permit there will be protests and court hearings. For a number of reasons, Bechstein Bats, rare birds who have suddenly been discovered breeding on exactly that location. It's Germany.

We will find out soon enough. If you look at the area in question in this clip around the 2:55 mark (between the tower and the hangars) you'll see it was already heavily impacted by the construction works, doubtful if any rare birds are left that might need to be moved.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 114):
You will see that the total amount, without the costs of the delay, will be far greater than 2,5 billion.

It seems very likely that they will exceed the budget. But I don't think it's worth getting all worked up about a few million Euros extra. One of the positive side-effects of underestimating the traffic in the past is that the passenger fees that were collected to finance BER have for years exceeded the projections (€531m real vs. €440m planned). So I don't think a few percent over budget will matter all that much.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 116, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 115):

Can you link to a source for that fact. As I pointed out the only 52% figure that I found doesn't refer to buildings or installations.

HJave a look at yesterday's airliners.de newsletter. The LH passenger airline CEO says that not even their lounge was finished. IT does not work properly. Work was / is two months behind schedule, 2 weeks before opening date the problems were known. There's plenty in the German press about this, pinted and on-line.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 115):
doubtful if any rare birds are left that might need to be moved.

Wait and see. The opponents will not let it happen without court hearings nand injunctions. We still have people running around in FRA who want to close and demolish the new runway.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 115):
But I don't think it's worth getting all worked up about a few million Euros extra. One of the positive side-effects of underestimating the traffic in the past is that the passenger fees that were collected to finance BER have for years exceeded the projections (€531m real vs. €440m planned). So I don't think a few percent over budget will matter all that much.

Nice. The € 91 million will not be enough to pay for the damages. OK, in a city that is subsidized by the rest of the country with 4 billion each year a couple of hundred millions is not much. What pisses most people of is this constant lying by the mayor and top officials. No one admits that this is going to cost money they don't have. If you ask Woereit today he will likely say that they are still in budget. He is the chairman of the supervisory board and that is a public company, By law he cannot report details from the meetings, but he can give general statements / press releases.



Just adding to the above - the airport management as well as the mayor, the prime minister of Brandenburg and the supervisory board knew well before last Tuesday that the opening could not take place June 3rd. Still, the mayor interviewed about 3 weeks ago confirmed the date. Another evidence that the 2 months delay was well known is the fact that last Tuesday they wanted a new opening date "early August" .

Another mistake driven by wishful thinking. So many things still can go woing that it would be recless to set another tight time limit. Early November should be the goal and they should start the procedure to extend the permit of TXL by another year just to be on the safe side.

[Edited 2012-05-14 23:48:42]


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
The LH passenger airline CEO says that not even their lounge was finished. IT does not work properly.

Unfortunate, but hardly something that would delay the opening.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
IT does not work properly.

Vague. This could mean anything on a scale from complete crash every 5 minutes to forgot to install Minesweeper on some PCs.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
Work was / is two months behind schedule

We are being told that each month delay costs €15m, so we are at €30m over budget?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
The € 91 million will not be enough to pay for the damages.

Why should the airport operator cover the damages. The work was contracted to businesses who apparently failed to finish on time, you'd expect them to pay.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
OK, in a city that is subsidized by the rest of the country with 4 billion each year a couple of hundred millions is not much.

I thought we had just established that BER will come in significantly cheaper (even when adding "a couple of hundred millions") than comparable projects like T5. Not exactly evidence that Berlin has been wasteful when it comes to money.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 116):
Just adding to the above - the airport management as well as the mayor, the prime minister of Brandenburg and the supervisory board knew well before last Tuesday that the opening could not take place June 3rd.

Well this article (based on a statement of a member of the mayor's party) says the planning company presented falsified reports to mislead the board.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 118, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
Unfortunate, but hardly something that would delay the opening.

well, OK, so LH tells their premium customers to buy a burger at McDee's?

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
Vague. This could mean anything on a scale from complete crash every 5 minutes to forgot to install Minesweeper on some PCs.

That's not your home PC, if IT in a project like that dos not work properly it affects all aspects.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
We are being told that each month delay costs €15m, so we are at €30m over budget?

"We are being told" is nic. Read today's FAZ, business section, interview with AB CEO Mehdorn. he was told in the morning of the day when the sh** hit the fan that "everything is alright". The 15 million does by far not include all the damages the airport will have to pay to airlines, vendors, Deutsche Bahn, etc. A long list...

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
Why should the airport operator cover the damages.

because they are the general contractors and airlines, vendors, Deutsche Bahn have contracts with Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg and not the construction companies that firm employs. FBB is in charge to control all that and they failed miserably.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
I thought we had just established that BER will come in significantly cheaper (even when adding "a couple of hundred millions") than comparable projects like T5

Did we? , I did not. Wait for the final tally and "comparabel" with T5 at LHR is at best a rough comparison. T5 has 2 satellites which BBI does not have at this stage, jst to mention one.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):

Well this article (based on a statement of a member of the mayor's party) says the planning company presented falsified reports to mislead the board.

Well, that is a typical Wowi. He has never been responsible for anything. If the management and the supervisory board declare themselves "victims" of falsified reports they are the wrong people at the wrong place.

Fact isw - see above, Mehdorn interview, that politics lied and falsified statements. There will be a further press conference today, let's see what the front report will have for the pp public.

Meanwhile, both LH and AB suggest that the opening should take place end of October at the switch to the winter timetable. That's what i said öast Tuesday.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 119, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Latest news on-line this morning in "WELT" is that the new airport might not open this year and could be delayed until 2013.

Total chaos and no one can predict anything, as it seems., Interesting fact - the FBB manager in charge of supervising the construction of BBI finished his doctorade recently. I spare a comment on that.....



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7742 posts, RR: 17
Reply 120, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 117):
I thought we had just established that BER will come in significantly cheaper (even when adding "a couple of hundred millions") than comparable projects like T5.

Did we?

I thought we had establishred that a stand-alone terminal designed to handle up to 30 million passengers a year that was completed a few years back ACTUALLY cost around twice what it is CLAIMED BER - the whole airport - capable of handling almost as many passengers will cost.

Here it is worth noting that even ignoring any compensation that may or may not be due, every day's extra work on completing BER will push the final cost higher. People simply do not work for nothing.

So in the unlikely event that BER was on budget a few weeks back it certainly will not be in August, next winter, next year or whenever it is actually completed unless, of course someone got a magic (money saving) wand.   


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 119):
Latest news on-line this morning in "WELT" is that the new airport might not open this year and could be delayed until 2013.

Total chaos and no one can predict anything, as it seems.

A press conference will be held at around 18:00 local time, so maybe we will see a bit clearer by then. The rumors circulating so far are that nobody can guarantee for an opening within the next 6 months. As the new opeing date must be definite by all means, this might indeed lead to something like 1 April 2013 (or whenever the summer schedules begin).



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 122, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 121):
this might indeed lead to something like 1 April 2013 (or whenever the summer schedules begin).

April 1 2013 would be an ideal date, indeed.   That leaves open a lot of excuses.

Usually the summer schedules start last Sunday in March, when time switches from winter to summer.

NMow, let's see, € 15. mio per month x 10 is alone € 150 million, plus the damages of airlines, vendors, hotel, Deutsche Bahn, adding a couple of hundred millions. Good show, mayor Wowereit.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 101):
This is actually starting to make VIE's SkyLink (3 years late and 100%+ over budget) look less bad.


Not surprising. We are speaking of two Kaiser's capitals, I believe....

Quoting something (Reply 46):
But Germany isn't Italy.. yet.


While a small trouble like this would go completely unnoticed here, I find your generalization a little bit .. ehm... offensive.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 124, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 122):
April 1 2013 would be an ideal date, indeed.

  

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 121):
A press conference will be held at around 18:00 local time

Please pass on any information.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineWilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 125, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1854 times:
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Please continue discussion here:

BER Opening Postponed Part 2 - Not Before 2013! (by Delta777Jet May 15 2012 in Civil Aviation)



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