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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops  
User currently offlinedelta764 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12344 times:

It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12231 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?

It appears that Delta considers JFK more viable than ATL for some transatlantic operations or they wouldn't have the changes. Don't forget that DL has much more information available than we do


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7766 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12148 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?

It isn't necessarily true that JFK is more viable than ATL for TATL flying. As with everything, it depends on the market and nature of the route.

ATL is a mega-hub and offers connectivity for TATL flights to just about everywhere. However it doesn't have the O&D feed, the tourist/VFR traffic from abroad, of the scale of global business in comparison to NYC. With NYC, (and other major cities in the Northeast) ATL isn't necessarily the best option since it requires back-tracking. People do this all the time, but there are other options

JFK on the other hand, doesn't have the connectivity of ATL but it does connect to many major domestic markets. However JFK has the O&D for the NYC market. In additional, some of the routes can use a 757 TATL which is not possible out of ATL.

In short they compliment each other. DL only has a finite amount of resources at JFK so it is in their best interest to route more of the connecting traffic over ATL (or DTW) instead of flowing it all through JFK, so they can focus more on the O&D traffic.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4971 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11981 times:
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JFK-Europe is also shorter stage length than ATL-Europe....and in the current fuel environment, every little bit helps...

About the only European destinations that ATL has left that are not served via JFK are the German ones - DUS, STR, and MUC; these do much better to ATL than JFK as there is a good amount of traffic headed to the South and Southeast US on these flights (especially the German auto manufacturers with plants in the US South, as well as lots of leisure traffic from Germany to places like RSW, SRQ, TPA, all of which are much better served via ATL).


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11746 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifte

One can argue shifting BACK to JFK as these flights started in JFK years ago to only have transferred to ATL now back to JFK.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8494 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11029 times:
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Most of what works in Atlanta will work at JFK but what works at JFK will not always work in ATL. Certain routes from ATL to Stuggart, Munch and Dusseldorf work in ATL for Delta specific reason but may not work for other airlines in ATL. Dubai works well for DL in ATL but probably wouldn't work so well from JFK with Emirates at JFK.

User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4067 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10873 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL.

I noticed it as well. Delta's European operation at ATL is very close in size to what it was ten years ago.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8494 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10788 times:
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Quoting incitatus (Reply 6):
I noticed it as well. Delta's European operation at ATL is very close in size to what it was ten years ago.

Delta started in 1978 from ATL to LGW, then added Frankfurt, Paris and Amsterdam among teh early ones. But after nearly 40 years how many places would you like DL to fly to it hasn't ? Athens and TLV were stopped by may be Belgrade, Serbia or Zagreb would work from Atlanta ?


User currently offlinekotoka From Ghana, joined Jun 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10698 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK

Is DL terminating the ATL-ACC flight altogether, or just cutting back on frequency?


User currently offlineBRJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10621 times:

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK
Quoting kotoka (Reply 8):
Is DL terminating the ATL-ACC flight altogether, or just cutting back on frequency?

Wonder if JFK would go daily? Current operations is 3x weekly ATL and 4x JFK, correct? Continues to ROB and ABV depending on which days of the week.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10589 times:

Quoting BRJ (Reply 9):
Wonder if JFK would go daily? Current operations is 3x weekly ATL and 4x JFK, correct? Continues to ROB and ABV depending on which days of the week.

It was stated in another thread that it will in fact go daily.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10201 times:

Delta (along with AA and UA) seem to be discovering that major hubs in smaller cities may not be the best point for launching long haul international flights.

If you notice the trend over the last decade, there has been renewed interest in serving international flights out of smaller (yet more traditional) coastal hubs.

AA-JFK/LAX
UA-IAD
DL-JFK

International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

Few people in Europe/Asia/Africa aspire to actually visit Dallas, Atlanta or Charlotte. I am not knocking those cities, just stating a fact.

What those secondary cities do have going for them is 1. Some sort of business market 2. Major connecting points by one dominant airline 3. Some need to actually travel to/from those cities with the population center in place


When you run JFK-Europe, the flight stands on its own with some feed.

When you run ATL-Europe, the flight needs A LOT of feed to make it work.

When you are in a sensitive fuel environment, the top scenario is better for all of the smaller European markets (long/thin) because you get a higher yield from a pax that flies on one flight NYC-Europe than you do from a pax that has to fly on two flights Florida-ATL-Europe.

In the latter, you just performed 2 takeoffs and 2 landings to transport that passenger, but you likely didn't command enough of an extra fare to cover the tag-on flight into ATL, so you are yielding less relative to what you have flown when you compare it to the nonstop customer from NYC to Europe


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33273 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

No, they do not just want to visit LA and NYC. Firstly, Miami gets more international tourists and more European tourists than LA. Secondly, San Francisco also gets a very large amount of international tourists, as does Orlando and Honolulu, not to mention Washington and Boston and, increasingly, Las Vegas.

Your point that they don't visit Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. is absolutely valid, but to argue they only visit LA and NYC is absurd.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
When you run JFK-Europe, the flight stands on its own with some feed.

Huge myth. Many JFK-Europe flights on AA and DL rely on more than 50% feed from other cities on the NYC-end.

It's flights from California and Florida that rely on the least amount of feed.

[Edited 2012-05-08 13:07:10]


a.
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9239 times:

DL's current JFK terminal is horrible, however, with the new terminal project underway, this will no longer be an issue. Then, I'd expect more shift towards JFK from ATL, which is out of the way for flights from Europe, and only has a fraction of the o&d that JFK gets.
Now, when it comes to operations, JFK is busy mess with occasional long delays and frequent short delays, but ATL is not not busy either.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6387 times:

Depending on website it is either

NYC
LA
MIA

or

NYC
MIA
LA


Orlando is not in the top 3. Neither is SFO

[Edited 2012-05-08 19:53:02]

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 3):

IMO once the economy comes back JFK-MUC will happen on Delta. Its a huge hole in the JFK network. Also think OSL and LIS will happen with 57s at some point.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Huge myth. Many JFK-Europe flights on AA and DL rely on more than 50% feed from other cities on the NYC-end.

which is why Delta started pumping feed into JFK during BK.

Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.



yep.
User currently offlinestlAV8R From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5910 times:

Delta also does "ITI" (international-to-international) traffic through ATL that it does not do through JFK so the connecting opportunities are greater in ATL. The percentage on the flights I am not aware of but I know its pretty common. I think a factor to be considered is that DL can maintain a more reliable schedule in ATL due to the traffic flowing better most of the time. These two alone should bring less risk and greater rewards.

User currently offlineasaad11 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 47 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Does anyone see potentially a second JFK-TLV flight instead of bringing back ATL-TLV? Not that they will bring it back but if they did would a second JFK-TLV be more viable?

User currently offlinecoopdogyo From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

JFK is gonna look more attractive to Delta now that they bought that refinery in Pennsylvania. According to an article in this weeks Aviation week owning the refinery is gonna reduce their fuel costs by around 7000 dollars on the average transatlantic flight. It will also force their competitors to bring more of their fuel through pipelines from the gulf forcing them to pay more to transport the oil.

User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4453 times:

Quoting asaad11 (Reply 17):
Does anyone see potentially a second JFK-TLV flight instead of bringing back ATL-TLV? Not that they will bring it back but if they did would a second JFK-TLV be more viable

I sincerely doubt a second JFK flight. There is already a lot of service from JFK/EWR to TLV on CO/LY and service from PHL now from US. My guess is that you will see variations in the size of aircraft being used from JFK to TLV, but not another flight. ATL-TLV would only come back with a better economy and lower fuel costs. TLV is not a huge business market for many companies (although it does have some military and IT). You therefore have to look at where the demand is coming from (up North, particularly NYC) and where in the US the demand is going, such as JFK/LAX/MIA, all of which may comfortably be served via JFK/AMS/CDG.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):

Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.

Don't count on it. It's not the economy that is the problem....it's fuel. And if the economy gets stronger, fuel will only go higher. Routes like ATL-CPH are marginal, thin routes that simply fail with high fuel prices.


User currently offlineBSLFRA From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

My LAX-DUS Delta flight is now going via JFK and AMS and then to DUS with KL

User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Another factor is that more cities are getting JFK service on Delta Connection carriers, so many markets can go across the pond with a shorter travel time.

Quoting panamair (Reply 3):
JFK-Europe is also shorter stage length than ATL-Europe....and in the current fuel environment, every little bit helps...

And some of the markets can be served by 757s, which opens some routes.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Most of what works in Atlanta will work at JFK but what works at JFK will not always work in ATL.

Yep! NCE and VCE come to mind, especially premium cabin revenue pax.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7625 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
If you notice the trend over the last decade, there has been renewed interest in serving international flights out of smaller (yet more traditional) coastal hubs.

AA-JFK/LAX
UA-IAD
DL-JFK

International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

Few people in Europe/Asia/Africa aspire to actually visit Dallas, Atlanta or Charlotte. I am not knocking those cities, just stating a fact.

How about the impact of slot restrictions on the European side? DL serves a number of routes into the Caribbean and Central America, if we get past the USA visa issues, any loyal travellers say heading to Europe has two choices, ATL or NYC, now does DL have all the slots available say to LHR to offer the number of frequencies needed to service both ATL and JFK?


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.

I don't think ATL-CPH will come back. I doubt there is much of a business market there.

I could see ATL-SVO returning eventually, as it would link the growing Russian economy with the growing economy of the American South. Also, it would be great for Russians going to Texas and Florida.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
25 Post contains images vadheim : I do not believe in another OSL - NYC operator. We already have SK (A333) and UA (B752) operating daily out of OSL to EWR and that is enough at the m
26 jfk777 : Lots of russians going to Miami and orlando but to Texas ? Russians and 10 galoon hats just don't seem to go toegther but then Texas does have oil, l
27 LHCVG : If I'm not mistaken, the real issue is that while many JFK flights rely on significant feed, there are a number that wouldn't/couldn't exist sans the
28 MAH4546 : Russians going to Texas have Singapore Airlines; Miami has Transaero and, as of October, Aeroflot. One might even hypothseize that the growing non-st
29 DeltaL1011man : MXP is only seasonal and is more due to the lovely economy in Italy. Like JFK-FCO. I think it will be back as a summer seasonal flight. JMO plus the
30 MAH4546 : This market thrives in the winter, not the summer - it's all Florida connections.
31 fpetrutiu : More like astronauts going from Houston to Russia for launch...
32 MAH4546 : There is a lot of oil traffic between Houston and Russia.
33 fpetrutiu : Do you all think OTP will ever return from JFK? Now with MALEV gone, RO doing well, is there a remote posibility? From JFK I mean.
34 B747forever : Isnt DL reducing their JFK-CPH? Makes ATL-CPH even less likely.
35 FlyingSicilian : There is a surprisingly fast-growing Russian (and Ukrainian) population in the Houston metro. While not a cummunity the size of SFO, NYC, MIA yet it i
36 bobnwa : That would come as a surprise to the quite sizable oil industry in Texas.
37 Blue100 : Although I don't necessarily see demand for additional TLV flights year round, I could see DL increasing frequencies from JFK during the summer peak
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