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CLT Delays  
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Is it my imagination or, is CLT experiencing a higher number of ATC and other delays these past few years? CLT seems to be trying to make a run for massive delays and pain in the butt factor the way the evil three NYC area airports, BOS, MCO and FLL create/endure. For example, ATL will be fine but CLT is a major delay. We get all the US passengers that would mis-connect due to the delays in CLT. Any and all theories/answers/explanations are welcome.




I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3051 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

I don't know how this year will be, but last year, delays were frequent because of the following:

1. Airport Construction (No runway work like last summer, so it should be a little better)

2. CLT's notorious afternoon severe thunderstorms (Fact of life in the Southeast, it has been storming today since around 7pm)

3. US addition of flights (Not a bad thing, the airport just wasn't designed to handle the traffic that CLT receives)



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Fewer runways to work with, and ever increasing number of flights US is pushing through existing banks causes a lot of delays.

User currently offlinedsuairptman From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 1):
2. CLT's notorious afternoon severe thunderstorms (Fact of life in the Southeast, it has been storming today since around 7pm)

This was the big winner for today's delay and deversion poloza feast at CLT.



GEAUX SAINTS!
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2068 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2894 times:

The last couple years have also had significantly less rain than average in the southern US. Even getting back up to the normal levels would entail added weather delays.

User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Fact of the matter is that in the past 5 years US has added an average of 150 flts a day. While that is good for CLT, it is only a matter of time that an increase in flights turns into an increase in delays.

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3430 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

CLT is a mess with frequent ground delays of up to 15 mins for spacing.

Never really understood it because on a whole, the airport is not that busy, and the airspace is not that busy.

That said, US has a terrible Bank-Gap-Bank-Gap setup.

In between banks, you could literally march a parade at a slow crawl up the runways. At the bank, the place might as well be tiny, crowded LGA.

Further complicating things is the bad ramp setup, which from a pilot perspective, is downright dangerous.

-Tiny area, with dual taxiway lines swinging around corners of the concourses
-Taxiway lines veer off into alleyways with little warning
-Hard stand areas in the middle of this on the west side
-"Alleyway" setup which causes delays to/from gates
-Pilots that go through the area at very fast taxi speed
-Regional area deposits aircraft right into departure queue for 18L causing massive traffic jams during bank


I have said it before and I will say it again, one day there will be a collision on that ramp...it is that dangerous.


So when you put that all together, that probably adds to the delay situations.


User currently offlineGSPflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

Last night it was Thunderstorms. ATL has the same problems during the Summer, it's just something that happens in the southeast. The storms in ATL or CLT don't spread out too far, and nearby airports like GSP have good enough weather to stay open and take diversions. During the Summer, I would say GSP gets at least 1 diversion each week from ATL, so I get to see some interesting aircraft. Last night we had 2X E170, 2X CR9, 2X A320, an A321 and a 734 (All US) that all stayed until CLT opened.

User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2411 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):

Seems to me CLT needs to be properly slot controlled.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3148 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
Never really understood it because on a whole, the airport is not that busy, and the airspace is not that busy.

Its the 6th busiest airport in the world.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...tte-douglas-now-sixth-busiest.html



FLYi
User currently offlineBC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 9):
Its the 6th busiest airport in the world.

That is in aircraft movements, not passengers carried, which would make it the 25th busiest airport. But even with the article you posted it stated there are about 670 total daily departures so I'm thinking a sizable portion of CLT's traffic is non-passenger cargo.

It states there were 539,842 aircraft movements last year. If I take 670 daily flights and multiply it by 2 (to account for one take off and one landing per flight) I get 1340. Multiply that by 365 I get 489,100, so what are the other 50,742 flights?



"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22835 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Seems to me CLT needs to be properly slot controlled.

How many slots per hour is "proper?"



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3148 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):

That is in aircraft movements, not passengers carried,

Yes; the topic is about aircraft delays.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):
what are the other 50,742 flights?

General aviation, corporate aviation, military

[Edited 2012-05-09 12:22:04]


FLYi
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):
It states there were 539,842 aircraft movements last year. If I take 670 daily flights and multiply it by 2 (to account for one take off and one landing per flight) I get 1340. Multiply that by 365 I get 489,100, so what are the other 50,742 flights?

Also the 670 is an average at a given point in time. It may fluctuate throughout the year depending on the season.

Also don't forget other carriers fly into CLT other than just US.


User currently offlineBC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 12):
Yes; the topic is about aircraft delays

you're right... ooops!

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 13):
Also don't forget other carriers fly into CLT other than just US.

You're right. It said approximately 600 flights for US and 70 on other carriers.



"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 14):
You're right. It said approximately 600 flights for US and 70 on other carriers.

Oh Ok, well that actually gets back to my point that it fluctuates a bit. The US Fact Sheet for April has CLT at 631 flts.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Believe it or not US crew members affectionately refer to CLT as Hillbilly Philly! US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance.
CLT, LGA, DCA, BOS. We, BWI are considered the Southeast (at least northern tier) and we get afternoon and evening thunderstorms most of the year. It seems, ATL recovers faster than CLT, BOS and the evil three NYC airports.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinewill777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance.

Hasn't US been ranked 1st in on-time performance for the past couple of years?


User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):

No worrys, once they wipe out runnway 23, they will use it as a taxi way and create another runway in between 18c and 18r and then next to runnway 18l they will build another runnway


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting will777 (Reply 17):
Hasn't US been ranked 1st in on-time performance for the past couple of years?

Maybe of the majors, not overall. I think AS and HA regularly take top honors. PHX helps, I'm sure.


User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1775 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

They also need to cancel the noise abatement BS where they are only allowed to use 5-23 in the mornings.. I have taken off many mornings from NC/SC/GA/VA airports to find long vectors, ground stops, etc. etc. just because of this.


Earthbound misfit I
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22835 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1734 times:

Quoting bahadir (Reply 20):
They also need to cancel the noise abatement BS where they are only allowed to use 5-23 in the mornings.. I have taken off many mornings from NC/SC/GA/VA airports to find long vectors, ground stops, etc. etc. just because of this.

When did that change? 36L (now 36C) used to be the preferred noise abatement runway.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance. CLT, LGA, DCA, BOS.

What's wrong with DCA's on time performance? I'd note, too, that in the winter, CLT's on-time performance is very good - CLT was at 89.66 percent in February, 2012, better than all other legacy hubs and better than every major hub save BWI (incidentally, the 6 worst major hubs in February, 2012 were all UA hubs).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2411 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
How many slots per hour is "proper?"

Landing on two parallels, be it facing north or south, the AAR for CLT is anywhere from 64 to 73 in VMC. In IMC, it drops down to 60-68 arrivals an hour.

That's a good place to start.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22835 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
Landing on two parallels, be it facing north or south, the AAR for CLT is anywhere from 64 to 73 in VMC. In IMC, it drops down to 60-68 arrivals an hour.

And what's the maximum number of scheduled operations per hour?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1670 times:

I have only flown in/out of CLT a handful of times but I would caution that the truth is not always in the numbers. An ontime departure is when the aircraft pushes back ontime, that does not take into account waiting to depart for 20 minutes. This is why US builds quite a buffer into flying times. EWR-PHL blocked at almost an hour though it averages 25 minutes of flying time. Also I forget what consitutues an arrival but if it's wheels down it does not account for taxi time and ramp delays due alleyway congestion or an aircraft still at the gate of arrival.

25 jfklganyc : "Its the 6th busiest airport in the world." By your measure, DAB is also one of the busiest airports in the world haha
26 Cubsrule : Which measure? He's not talking movements.
27 silentbob : Arrival on the gate constitutes an "arrival", so those issues are considered. It shouldn't, you've already departed the gate. That's why it is called
28 thenoflyzone : During peak hours, it's pretty obvious it's more than 60-65 per hour. Hence the problem. 670 arrivals/day divided by 18 hours gives you 37 movements/
29 Cubsrule : It's not obvious. If weather closes the airfield, no number of slots, no matter how small, eliminates delays and diversions.
30 thenoflyzone : no one is talking about eliminating delays. I'm merely suggesting a way to operate the airport that would be better than the current way it is done.
31 Cubsrule : How do we know that it's better? It's obvious that in the winter, the airport doesn't need slots.
32 DashTrash : It was that way when I started Piedmont in '04. Turboprops were permitted to use 18R / 36L but turbojet traffic was all 5/23 unless operational neces
33 Post contains links dumbell2424 : Related, here's a good article summarizing CLT's future plans http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...llion-on-future.html#storylink=cpy One interestin
34 Cubsrule : That's interesting. Between 2005 and 2007, I landed 36L late at night numerous times.
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