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Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?  
User currently offlineSWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 112 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17022 times:

After looking at this one article: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-air-cfo-sees-value-000026155.html
And with all the rumors going around, Will United Become an All Boeing Airline? Besides the order for the A350, United doesn't have any other Airbus aircraft on order and with there aging A320/19 fleet will we see UA become what AA was?

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17013 times:

Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
Besides the order for the A350, United doesn't have any other Airbus aircraft on order and with there aging A320/19 fleet

The 350s will have low cycles, and will be in the fleet a long, long time (if the current philosophy holds). So they won't be an all Boeing airline.


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7193 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 16883 times:
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Dump the A319/20 and fly the 737. How many years off is the A350 order? They could follow others and cancel that order.

User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6833 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 16714 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 2):
Dump the A319/20 and fly the 737. How many years off is the A350 order? They could follow others and cancel that order.

I suspect this will only happen if Airbus stumbles badly and gives them an excuse. Otherwise it will cost them penalties and I don't think they want that. Having an all-Boeing fleet is worth something but not that much. Besides, what would they buy instead? They will need planes before the 777x will be ready, from what I understand. And the 748 is too big for what they want.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 790 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 16627 times:
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Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):
I suspect this will only happen if Airbus stumbles badly and gives them an excuse. Otherwise it will cost them penalties and I don't think they want that. Having an all-Boeing fleet is worth something but not that much. Besides, what would they buy instead? They will need planes before the 777x will be ready, from what I understand. And the 748 is too big for what they want.




I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal. Keep in mind all manufacturers use different techniques and ideologies. It is much easier for a mechanic to learn only one. The differences in the 727,737 and 747 are minimal when it comes to the way the aircraft is built. The same for Airbus. I love only having to remember Boeing. I was McD before this and it was the same way, if you knew the DC8 then you were on track with the 9 and 10. Maintenance of aircraft is huge and keeping the mech. in the loop is also huge. We can work on anything but when it comes to troubleshooting it is nice to keep it in the same family.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16539 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It's not that big a deal at DL, for example. I think it used to be that exclusive arrangements had some cache to them (i.e. DL and AA before the consolidation era), but at the scales they're dealing with now having the option to plug-and-play the 319, for example, over the 738 to right-size capacity is an attractive option.


User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16451 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Norwegian stated that they ordered both the NEO and the MAX because that way they were able to squeeze down both suppliers to the max and if they ordered only one of the 2 types they would have paid a lot more for their fleet.

Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net. That does not mean that existing relationships don't matter (the incumbent has large advantages) but no airline is going to shoot themselves in the foot just because they like A or B more than the other one.


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 790 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16432 times:
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Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It's not that big a deal at DL, for example. I think it used to be that exclusive arrangements had some cache to them (i.e. DL and AA before the consolidation era), but at the scales they're dealing with now having the option to plug-and-play the 319, for example, over the 738 to right-size capacity is an attractive option.




I don't think you understand what I was saying. It is much easier to maintain aircraft if they are from the same stable. There are mechs. that know Fords, some who know Chevy's and some who know Edsel's (they are unemployed). See what I am saying? It is much more efficient when your mechs only have to learn a couple of aircraft. That way a problem is probably known and the gate call/repair can effect an on time departure. Trust me here, I have worked on alot of different manuf. aircraft and they all have different philosophies about how to build an aircraft.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16305 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
Trust me here, I have worked on alot of different manuf. aircraft and they all have different philosophies about how to build an aircraft.

No one is saying otherwise. But in the big picture, you are wrong. Service agreements, power-by-hour frameworks, third-party maintenance providers, etc are greatly diminishing the historical inefficiency of operating mixed fleet types. Aircraft are becoming commodities and airlines will order whoever offers the better price, financing, delivery slots, T's & C's, etc on the particular day they sign the purchase order.

It's not what diehard A vs B fanboys want to hear, but it will be increasingly hard for Airbus and Boeing to win orders that lock down an airline for an aircraft's lifecycle.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net.

On the contrary, it absolutely happens. You don't think WN has a preference for the 737?

I am willing to concede - in fact, I'm suggesting - that this will become a less common practice in the future.

[Edited 2012-05-09 19:20:38]

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16205 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
It is much more efficient when your mechs only have to learn a couple of aircraft.

In your world yes but I think, in addition to the points made in other posts, you lose those efficiencies across the network by trading that simplicity for the flexibility to right size your capacity for demand.


User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16206 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 8):
On the contrary, it absolutely happens. You don't think WN has a preference for the 737?

I am willing to concede - in fact, I'm suggesting - that this will become a less common practice in the future.

Yes, WN has a strong preference for the 737 but that is because it best fits their business need, not because they only buy B and not A. You can bet that A was pushing the NEO hard on WN and WN took that offer and went to B to get a much better price on the MAX (or even better, they took that to get B to commit to the MAX in the first place...)


User currently offlinetpaewr From United States of America, joined May 2001, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15998 times:

It is too early to be dogmatic, but it will greatly hinge on the how the 350 turns out. If the 350 progresses well, and is at a killer price then it would be foolish to not take it.


But if it runs into the problems typically of new A/C at the same time the PM CO 787-8 and 787-9 are rolling in, it makes things much tougher for AB.


Besides, we all know UA is more PMCO than PMUA, and we all know what sorta fleet CO runs


United Continental Holdings Inc (UAL) said on Tuesday..............................

CFO John Rainey declined to comment on the upcoming deal, saying the company always talks to both manufacturers before placing an order. But he said there are clear benefits from a fleet composed primarily of planes from one maker.



He'd look rather foolish saying that then placing a split order dontcha think?


"


User currently offlinestlAV8R From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15926 times:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Norwegian stated that they ordered both the NEO and the MAX because that way they were able to squeeze down both suppliers to the max and if they ordered only one of the 2 types they would have paid a lot more for their fleet.

Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net. That does not mean that existing relationships don't matter (the incumbent has large advantages) but no airline is going to shoot themselves in the foot just because they like A or B more than the other one.

With the competition the way it is these days between Airbus and Boeing, and ATR and Bombardier and Embraer for that matter, ordering one brand over another won't drive up your costs. In fact, and I can't say for sure, but I would be inclined to believe that it would save the operator more money, as from what I read in the press it seems that the manufacturers are willing to pretty much give them away (so to speak) just to get exclusivity. I would bet that they consider the money made from selling parts as a way to make up for the lost initial revenue so I think if I were a manufacturer, that I would rather sell you the initial product cheaper knowing (and that is this is the case) that you will have to continue to return to me for parts rather than you spending that money with another manufacturer cause that is going to help float my business. Now, if I know you are going to split your order, then I am probably going to charge you more because I am going to win your business anyway and have to reason to persuade you as greatly via discounts.

Also, consider what negotiations that I can make with the suppliers if I can guarantee them more business. I can manufacturer my product cheaper therefore sell it cheaper and still rake in profits.


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15787 times:

I think either having an all Boeing or Airbus fleet has it pros and cons. Swiss, all Airbus and no complaints. WN all Boeing operator with no issues. Each operators business model is different for the missions they use the machinery. This is only a topic because of the merger.

My personal opinion is that UA will use the 737 and the Airbus A320/19 on most domestic missions along with the 767 and 777 depending on the capacity demand. Internationally it would be the 747, 777 and the 757 for the trans Atlantic routes. I think they will eventually cancel the order for A350's and go with what they have (777, 767-300/400) until the 777x is defined. I personally don't think the 350 will be ready in time and if Jeff and company can wait for the 777x (which I think they will) they won't have buyers remorse knowing the 777x could've been a better machine in the long run. But what do I know, I just watch planes land and take off from time to time.

Based on what A is claiming the 359-9 is capable of it should be an awesome plane and.I'm more that sure it will sell well as it has. But the same factor why ethiad cancelled their last 7 frames could be the same reason(s) why they do as well. The x factor is when can they put it all together in time to save the current backlog. With 787's flying around, it seems like the pressure to make the whole A350 program come together is compounded.


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 790 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15531 times:
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Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 8):
No one is saying otherwise. But in the big picture, you are wrong. Service agreements, power-by-hour frameworks




Sir, I have worked for the companies you speak of. Dalfort Aviation and Dee Howard Aircraft Services. I was just pointing out that experience is the best. If you only work on one type of aircraft you get to know it intimately. Let Delta and AA and AS and NWA fly what they want. We fly one aircraft, the 737, don't like it or like it this is what we fly. I can troubleshoot a problem very quickly on it and have the aircraft back in service fairly quickly. Let's see the other guys do it.


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15511 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 2):
They could follow others and cancel that order.

But they won't. UA will take delivery of their A350s, and likely commence retirement of their 744s at that time. This is what UA has said on a few occasions, and has nothing to do with more recent or even future orders.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

I guess... But it also creates a fair bit of trouble too.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
It is much easier for a mechanic to learn only one.

I never had trouble keeping up, gate call or RON work. I have my preferences, but when I was doing that for a living, I wasn't hampered by troubleshooting an Airbus one hour and an Embraer the next.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineasteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13804 times:

Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

I think UA may be watching with interest what Airbus does with the A350-1000. If the A3510 does actually live up to its promises, then UA may consider buying 15-20 A3510's to replace the 747-400's on transpacific routes.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12687 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
If the A3510 does actually live up to its promises, then UA may consider buying 15-20 A3510's to replace the 747-400's on transpacific routes.

UA bought 25 A359s for that exact purpose. Why does this topic keep coming up? UA, pre or post merger, has never wavered from the stance that the A350s were 744 replacements. Until someone can show a quote from a senior UA exec that explicitly denies this, there isn't much of the dead horse left to beat...


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8695 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12031 times:

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

This is, after all, an internet forum. So yes, the "worst" thing about a mixed fleet is the NBH (Not Built Here) factor.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11706 times:

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

Maintenance and fleet availability. If you standardize on one manufacturer (even better one type like WN), you can have more maintenance availability because the aircraft can be serviced easily at any of your maintenance facilities/technicians. If you say have one type of airplane for the domestic market (ex. 737), it can be much more easily replaced if needed on a one-on-one basis with another one that just landed per say or is idle. If the fleet is split, you might have an A320/319 avail but the seating is not the same thus is not as streamlined of a swap and then creates a ripple effect down the whole scheduling process (kind of like taking a can from the bottom of a neatlyt stacked can pyramind)...

I can see where he's coming from.


User currently offlinecruiseshipcrew From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11258 times:

I'm a huge Boeing fan, a stockholder etc but people need to stop saying United might cancel the A350 order. The CEO and other airline executives have been quoted several times saying how excited they are to get this airport that has a perfect spot in the new United. It's not going anywhere!


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User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10472 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 14):
Let's see the other guys do it.

Respectfully, and with no knock on your experience, "the other guys" do it all the time at DL, UA, CO, B6, AF, LH, KE, SQ, et al.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2949 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10283 times:

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 13):
they won't have buyers remorse knowing the 777x could've been a better machine in the long run.

Instead, they could have buyers remorse if the A350 absolutely blows the 777X away... There's a decent chance of that happening, especially if Airbus were to create heavily upgraded versions a decade into the program (in the same way Boeing did the 777 to create the 77L and 77W). If those upgrades were on the same scale as the 77L/W upgrades, then the A350 would be an incredible aircraft, and one that any airline who cancelled their orders for would sorely regret missing out on...

My view is that the best compromise is to pick and chose what works best for the network/fleet from both sides. My personal view is that the 787/A350 combo is a strong future for UA to stick to...


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10283 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
and some who know Edsel's (they are unemployed).

Bad analogy.......Edsels were nothing more than Fords with different styling, just as Mercurys were.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Post contains images ER757 : This is going to turn into "when will NW retire their DC-9's" or "why don't AF wash their planes" or the ever popular "Will AS merge with XX"
26 PHXA340 : You are saying that an aircraft that hasn't even been defined by Boeing is going to be a better plane than the A350 on what facts. Many respected mem
27 Post contains images FriendlySkies : UA still has 50 orders and 75 options for 787s...that aircraft wasn't delayed, right?
28 Post contains images par13del : Well, someone needs to tell Airbus that they are wasting valuable time and resources attempting to ensure pilots can fly all the A32X a/c with one ty
29 milesrich : The Edsel was a Ford, or at least the 1958 Ranger and Pacer were, and the Citation & Corsair were more or less a Mercury, and in 1959 and 1960, E
30 LHCVG : And let's not forget that they afford to be choosy when the performance numbers are relatively close. If the NEO's numbers blew the MAX out of the wa
31 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Not really inreality. they will get substantial discounts regardless, probably better ones (like the days of the gentlemen's agreement) since Boeing
32 PHXA340 : Agreed , so lets wait and see how the 350s perform accordingly and what Boeing actually proposes re 777x. Its just tiring to see how a "What is your
33 cbphoto : Simply NO! Their have been strong rumors that United is looking at getting the E190s as well, and even if they don't, I suspect that their might very
34 fpetrutiu : According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category. EMB190 cannot be considered equal to the 737 in no wasy s
35 kgaiflyer : Unless they can improve the interiors. I've flown the US E190 on the DCA-BOS shuttle; the PHL-BOS shuttle, and the LGA-BOS shuttle. A good fast-turn
36 FriendlySkies : This discussion is about whether UA will source all aircraft from one supplier, not about 737s, so I'd say it is relevant. Prior to the merger, UA wa
37 fpetrutiu : What I am saying is that UA's coments about single supplied I think are pointed to aircraft categories not necessarily the airline as a whole. They w
38 airbazar : Another issue, and we saw that with AA, is that no single manufacturer has the ability to supply the huge number of frames that a big airline needs.
39 AADC10 : I would not be surprised to see UA with an all Boeing domestic fleet but cancelling the A350 would be expensive and it would leave with nothing to rep
40 strfyr51 : Whether UAL will BECOME an all Boeing airline in the future is Highly possible,, but for NOW?? NOPE! the last A320/A319's were delivered in 2000-2001.
41 THEBATMAN : Mixing A and B in your fleet is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case however, you've got two types of airplanes that basically serve the same pu
42 PHXA340 : Your rant is going to cause some serious flaming buddy. I would just delete it All your rants against Airbus are gettting tired and old. Your posts ne
43 kgaiflyer : Then why on earth did Continental buy (1) DC-9s (2) MD-80s and (3) Airbus A300s ? Was it because Continental was / is an "all-Boeing" airline. I get
44 KC135TopBoom : No sir. There are huge benefits each OEM gives an airline for being loyal and only buying their airplanes. A Boeing or Airbus dedicated airline can e
45 FX1816 : I don't believe CO did buy new MD80's but I could be wrong. They also acquired A300's from EA and some factory fresh A300's. It appears as though whe
46 ghifty : They probably don't need the extra 60 seats/flight. Looking at the current orders, there will basically be one A350 for every 747-400 (let's just rou
47 BigB : CO never bought MD-80s, A-300s. CO acquired the MD-80s via mergers with Frontier Airlines and the A300s were a result of Frankie transferring assets
48 DeltaL1011man : 77W. Not saying they will but they could....
49 cbphoto : The OP asked if UA could become an all Boeing airline? It is irreverent whether the E190 can be considered equal to a 737 (no idea where you got that
50 brilondon : Would UA buy these aircraft and put them with United Express or are there issues with the pilot agreements to prevent this from happening?
51 BlueSky1976 : To keep the same number of F and J seats while reducing Y seats. A350s were purchased with that purpose in mind. AFAIK United was specifically asking
52 Post contains links and images kgaiflyer : They must have -- I've flown on them.View Large View MediumPhoto © Cary Liao I forgot about the DC-10s even though I've flown on them.View Large Vie
53 kgaiflyer : The point being -- the adage of Continental having historically been an all-Boeing airline is a myth.
54 catiii : I think what he means though is that they came on the property indirectly via an acquisition of another carrier who was operating them. CO didn't ord
55 gigneil : Prove it. I think you made that up. NS
56 cbphoto : Nope, currently scope requirements would require the E190s to be flown under mainline United. The most seats express can fly is ~70 seats (not sure t
57 FX1816 : Exactly what I did say, thank you! If he had read my whole post I even mentioned where CO eventually disposed of the MD80's. I believe CO only acquir
58 THEBATMAN : I was talking about two different airplanes serving the same purpose. I really would not call a DC-9 and an MD-80 two different airplanes. One is jus
59 AADC10 : CO went all Boeing because after emerging from multiple trips through Ch. 11 CO had by far the worst credit in the industry at the time and Boeing was
60 FX1816 : I believe you are wrong given that Bethune worked for Boeing in the commercial aircraft division there was no doubt where the orders would go. Per wi
61 strfyr51 : I didn't rant but you're skirts are showing as you've got some personal preference for Airbus while I do NOT. I know what I'm talking about and have
62 AirbusA6 : Maybe UA and LH should have a swap, and thus produce the perfect result for A and B fanboys. LH gets the A350s and a nice harmonised European long hau
63 tommy767 : Depends on the airline, honestly. The UA 738s are not nearly as comfortable as AA's or DL's. The UA 320s are more comfortable than a DL 320. It just
64 LHCVG : That's interesting - is that just due to seating configuration and choice of seat vendor?
65 tommy767 : Seats are pretty tight and they aren't very comfortable. Ditto the 739
66 nws2002 : The orders went to Boeing because Bethune was able to twist arms and obtain a good deal due to his connections there.
67 brilondon : His rant and anybody else's either right or wrong should not be deleted, as you would wish. Just because he has an opinion that you don't like does n
68 strfyr51 : It depends on what?? With the UAL 737's getting economy plus is it the legroom the hip room or the onboard TV?? The roomiest single aisle was the DC8
69 milesrich : United was a Douglas customer after over committing to the B-247 and not receiving DC-3's until a year after AA and TW had them in service. But after
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